View source for Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Pilot of invisible F-117-a(song)

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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.  ''
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The result of the debate was '''delete'''. This discussion has not yielded anything looking remotely like a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] - instead we have a lot of hot air, some Geocities-level websites mostly consisting of just the lyrics and barely any pretense by those clamouring for keep that this article meets Wikipedia policy. The article itself starts off with an unsourced claim "It was a huge hit", followed by a copyright-violating lyric transcript, followed by nationalistic [[WP:NOR|original thought]]: ''"It can serve as an illustrative example of famous Serbian proud defiance (srpski inat) with which Serbs have resisted and eventually defeated many mighty enemies through centuries - Turks, Austro-Hungarians, Germans, and were now applying the same unashamed attitude of defiance towards mighty NATO"''. It's never going to be an acceptable encyclopaedia article, and this discussion has proven that while ably demonstrating why AfD is not a vote. --[[User:Samuel Blanning|Sam Blanning]]<sup>[[User talk:Samuel Blanning|(talk)]]</sup> 22:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

===[[Pilot of invisible F-117-a(song)]]===
The song is not notable enough to have its own article. Plus the translation is atrocious, and there is no information about copyright issues.

Why would I need copyrights?I just wrote down the words of the song,like in this case [[Keep Ya Head Up]]!! If you allowed that song,why wouldn`t you allow thi song,that is maybe the most famous Satrirical war song in 90s[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 07:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Non-notable song by a non-notable band.&#160;— [[User:TheKMan|'''<span style="color:#0000FF;">The</span><span style="color:#FF0000;">KMan</span>''']][[User_talk:TheKMan|<sup style="color:#000000;"><u>talk</u></sup>]] 22:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
*:'''Comment''': The NATO bombings of Serbia was definitely something notable, however I have not seen any evidence so far that the song itself is noteworthy. I will gladly change to a "keep" if proper sources are provided that demonstrate the popularity of this song.&#160;— [[User:TheKMan|'''<span style="color:#0000FF;">The</span><span style="color:#FF0000;">KMan</span>''']][[User_talk:TheKMan|<sup style="color:#000000;"><u>talk</u></sup>]] 06:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', the band seems to fail [[WP:MUSIC]], thus song is non notable. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 06:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''STRONG KEEP'''This is very famous song in Balkans,you cant find a single Serbian,Croatian,Bosnian or Macedonian that have not heard it.Please dont delete it[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 07:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep,''' but add more context and explain how important and ironic it is, given the nature of the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999.  It is an example of the famous "serbian spite" that Serbs are so proud of.  Other examples could be brought in. [[User:Profnjm|Profnjm]] 00:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' --[[User:Bormalagurski|<span style="color:#003399;">'''serbiana'''</span>]] [[Yugoslavia|'''-''']] [[User_talk:Bormalagurski|<span style="color:#A61022;">'''talk'''</span>]] 22:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' - this was one of the most popular songs during the bombings, along with others (Ja sam ja for example). In fact, we should make an article about the Indeksovici. And remember, if something isn't significant to the US, it doesn't mean it shouldn't belong here. [[User:Lord_Eru|<span style="color:red;">Хајдук Еру</span>]]  ([[User_talk:Lord Eru|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] || [[Special:Contributions/Lord_Eru|<span style="color:gray;">Contributions</span>]]) 02:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
:If it was so popular, how come the entry on Serbian wikipedia about this band does not mention it?  Check [[:sr:Индексовци]]. What is the title of this song in Serbian, anyway?  That would be a useful piece of information to include in the article, don't you think? Especially since a search for Индексовци AND 117 on Google returns no hits.  [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 04:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Because Indekosovci was group that also had many satrirical songs about Milosevic ,so they were pretty much banned from all TV stations.But thi particural song was played all over the country,and you couldn`t find A SINGLE SERB THAT NEVER HEARD IT!!! Its very famous even outside Serbia.

Also I should just mention such classics as "Ja sam Ja",those are also even more popular songs by Indeksovci.

Blacer,you should ask someone who knows Serbian to help you with that Google search,you will find planty of "return hits".[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 04:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

:OK, let me ask you then.  What was the title of this song in Serbian? [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 04:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to give you few links to this song::::::::
http://www.tirova.com/glasba/kondor_pada.htm
http://www.ptt.yu/korisnici/m/a/makso/new_page_2.htm
http://members.fortunecity.com/jupi2/elcondor.htm
http://www.vicevi.net/index.php/haag.com/index.php?st=komentar&IDvic=34537


IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU?
Name of the song in Serbian is "EL KONDOR PADA".

p.s.Balcer,I have done told you that you are wrong about Lepper and now we saw that you was wrong.Now you are wrong again.You should think about quiting Wikipedia[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 04:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks.  That should have been provided in the first place.  Now please explain how "El Condor Pada" translates to "Pilot of invisible F-117-a". [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 04:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
:Anyway, if the article is moved to a title which is the actual translation of the Serbian title, if the links to the Serbian text you listed above are added as external links (so that others can check the translation), and if the popularity of this song is demonstrated with at least a few sources, I will withdraw my delete vote.  Wikipedia is not a lexicon of song lyrics, and the song lyrics that it has articles about must be '''shown''' to be notable. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 05:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok,I changed name to "El Condor Pada",so now there is a prove that its very famous song.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 11:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' unless a citation can be given that shows its popularity.  --[[User:Cholmes75|cholmes75]] 02:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - what does it mean to u Cholmes when it would be in language u dont understand?? [[User:Luka Jačov|Luka Jačov]] 18:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - This shouldn't be deleted but it needs more info. It is already added as trivia in the [[F-117 Nighthawk]] wiki page. [[User:Diamantidis|Diamantidis]] 4 May 2006

*'''Strong Keep'''[[User:Jamal Curtis|Jamal Curtis]] 11:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': User's only contribution is this vote. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 12:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': The first provided link is a 404. I don't think the next two probe its notability, it is just the uploaded lyrics. I am unsure about the last one, it looks like a forum. So far, I am keeping my delete vote as there is no enough evidence yet. Also, is the song in the serbian Wikipedia? -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 12:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

yes,but 2 link are Serban,one is Slovenian and one is English.Tha only means that song was popular even outside of Serbia.Ask any Serb if he heard it,everyone did.
I can hardly find a web site that have an article about the song,but not a single SErbian song got articles about it on the internet,does that mean that there is no nobale Serbian songs?
Or that just means that they never made it to Internet,but are still famous?[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 12:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Yes song realy exist. I herad for it. --[[User:Jovanvb|Jovanvb]] 13:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Actually, Indeksovci would be Indexovo radio pozorište (or Index's radio theater in English). They where/are an acting company, not a music band. Title of the song is play on the title of El Condor Pasa (to which music it is sang) (padati - to fall, pada - falls, so El Condor Pada == El Condor Falls). Should the article be kept? Maybe, but absolutely '''not''' in this form - this way it is probably copyvio, or very close to it. --[[User:BraneJ|Branislav Jovanovic]] 21:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strong Keep''' --[[User:GTubio|GTubio]] 22:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. I come from Balkans but never ever heard anything about this song. I think it is not notable enough to have its own article. Just maybe few people heard about it don’t mean it should have its own encyclopedic article. Most of the users who vote to keep this article were asked from [[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] to do so, some examples: [[User:Luka Jačov|Luka Jačov]], [[User:Bormalagurski|serbiana]], [[User:Lord Eru|Lord Eru]], [[User:Jovanvb|Jovanvb]]. Just look at their discussions and you will see that. Actually the user Dzoni wrote that in Serbian and not in English language. I don’t think that is fair.--[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 13:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Who are you to think,siptarcino smrdljiva mamu ti jebem.who gives a damn what you think.Dumb bastard.This is democracy,MOST PEOPLE VOTED STAY,SO NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR YOUR STUPID ALBANIAN OPINION[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 15:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

:Anyone else getting tired of [[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]]'s abusive behavior during this vote? I certainly am.  [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 15:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

::I am now just translating what [[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] wrote to me in [[Serbian Language|Serbian]]: “'''siptarcino smrdljiva mamu ti jebem'''”. That means in [[English Language|English]]: “'''stinky Albanian fuck your mother'''”. This user is attacking me personally. His answer has nothing to do with my argumentations. He is actually mad, that I understand his mother language. He is mad that I am Albanian. This user has no behaviour. '''Dear administrators, please do something about this user!''' His behaviour is not acceptable for Wikipedia!!!! 
::And to you Dzoni:You are trying to tell me what democracy means?!--[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 16:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strong Keep''' [[User:Kris12|Kris12]] 18:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC) OK this is not the place for verbal abuse.
I am a Serb, ni ja ne volim Šiptare ali matori, jebiga nemoj ovde da vredjaš.
Reci mi gde mogu da skinem mp3 El Kondor Pada? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Kris12|Kris12]] ([[User talk:Kris12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kris12|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->


::This is getting very interesting. Also the [[User:Kris12|Kris12]] don’t like Albanians: he wrote in [[Serbian Language|Serbian]]:” ni ja ne volim Šiptare”, that means in [[English Language|English]] that he also don’t like Albanian people. He used a nationalistic Serbian term for Albanians! He and user Dzoni seem to have an Albaniophobia! I don’t understand what this discussion has to do with their nationalistic opinions!!
::[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] wrote to [[User:Kris12|Kris12]] how to vote here! He told him to vote with  "'''Strong Keep'''" for this article (please see under '''Usluga''', means '''Favour''' in English from Serbian: [[User_talk:Kris12#Usluga|here]]). 
::This is really getting ridiculous. Almost 100% of people who voted to keep this article were told from user Dzoni to do so! Their votes should not be accepted!--[[User:Mig11|Mig11]] 16:52, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


*'''Comment''', please people, [[WP:CIVIL|be civil]] and [[WP:NPA|no personal attacks]]. Unluckily, something like this has happened before ([[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/HolyRomanEmperor3|HolyRomanEmperor RFA, in example]]). It is not really wrong to tell others that a determined article is up for deletion (some other groups post a note about the AFD in their local country portal, in example). What is wrong is coming here and vote to keep or delete just because someone else told you to do it in order to keep an article you wrote and/or about your country. I believe this AFD lost its [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] somewhere. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 16:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldnt agree that we voted because someone told us to vote.We all explained our votes.

Anyway,what I dont see is,why would this Albanians opinion be important in thi case.He can not possible be honest and objective on this subject,so he should be banned from voting here.
Also,"Siptar" is not offensive,because thats how they call themselves.

Kris12 have not said anything offensive,I did said what I mean of Siptars,but since I was officialy warned on my talk page that I will be banned,I will try not to use those words again.

And yes ReyBrujo,you got some nerves to say that we did not explained our votes.You was the one to said only few words with your first vote:"Song is not notable". We proved that song is VERY notable,so it would only be fair for you to apologise and change your vote.Off course,you can continue ignoring the facts...

Kris,pesma moze da se skine na jednom od ovih sajtova za koje sam dao linkove na ovoj strani,a ako ne rade onda mogu ja da ti posaljem[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 17:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

::'''Comment to Dzoni''': everybody in Balkans knows what "siptari" means und why the Serbian propaganda uses this. Don’t tell as lies. You are not an angel. You insulted people here. And everyone’s opinion counts in Wikipedia, not just the Serbian one, even an opinion of Albanians, whether you like it or not. Sorry to disappoint you. This is an free encyclopedia. --[[User:Bet 0|Bet 0]] 11:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

::'''Comment to Bet 0''': Stop lying,we all know that you call yourselves Siptars.Albanians from Kosovo call them selves Siptars,so you should thank me for calling you that way.It is not insult in any way,but how would you know,since you said you dont speak Serbian.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 13:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

:'''Comment''' There have been 4 keep votes that only have the vote, not even a small explanation of why the song should be kept. As for my vote, I wrote ''the band seems to fail [[WP:MUSIC]], thus song is non notable.'' That is explanation enough, unless you want me to tell check every of the WP:MUSIC the band does fail. As for probing, as far as I see in this thread, no, nothing was probed. You provided four links, and I already explained why notability hasn't been probed:
:* http://www.tirova.com/glasba/kondor_pada.htm &ndash; broken link, 404
:* http://www.ptt.yu/korisnici/m/a/makso/new_page_2.htm &ndash; NN personal page [http://www.ptt.yu/korisnici/m/a/makso/], it is like any geocities page.
:* http://members.fortunecity.com/jupi2/elcondor.htm &ndash; NN personal page [http://members.fortunecity.com/jupi2/], just like geocities.com, anyone can get an account
:* http://www.vicevi.net/index.php/haag.com/index.php?st=komentar&IDvic=34537 &ndash; Forums are not enough evidence to probe notability, anyone with an account can post in a forum.
:Does the Serbian Wikipedia have a page about this song? If not, it should not be in this version of Wikipedia. If so, it may provide us information as to how important this song is. There is no serious reference thus far about why this song should be kept in Wikipedia. Please provide a serious link, not just free accounts and forums. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 18:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as non-notable. -'''[[User:AKMask|<span style="color:#990011">M</span>]]'''[[User_talk:AKMask|<sup style="color:#990011">ask</sup>]] [[Image:Flag_of_Alaska.svg|20 px]] 18:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as copyright violation. Perhaps a fraction of the lyrics could be used along with commentary about them. It would be best if we had the original as well as the translated parts, though. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 19:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I voted keep, with some suggestions.  I think the song has merit as an entry, given what else gets its own entry on Wikipedia.  I'm no friend of Dzoni.  He's a racist pig.  He's an anti-semite.  He imagined that I'm Jewish and then spewed his anti-Semitic vitriol on me.  I'm not Jewish, I'm not Serbian.  I'm...nevermind.  He's a troll, basically.  But I do think the entry has merit, and ... he did ask me to vote for it.  Strange, eh?  But so be it.  [[User:Profnjm|Profnjm]] 19:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Profnjm,just because I dont like Zionists-Im a pig?!?!You are calling me a pig just because I pointed out that you can be blocked for further vandalising article about Dobrica Cosic!

You should thank me that I warned you,otherwise you would`ve probably been banned by now.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 20:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep and cleanup'''. Although it has a strong POV, it illustrates one wiev of the events. Still, original lyrics should be included. And for notability, I've heard of it and I am not form Serbia. The article should also give more references. --'''[[User:tone|Ton]][[User:Tone/Esperanza|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]]''' 23:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': Unless it is public domain, lyrics can't be included in the article per [[WP:SONG#Lyrics|song guidelines]]. -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 00:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
*'''Transwiki lyrics''' and '''Keep''' Transwiki the lyrics if they are Public Domain. The song seems to have high notability in the area it is about. The fact that americans have not heard of it before this AfD does not prove "non-notability". Need to expand on the article with respect to the precursors to the song being written and its effects on society. [[User:Ansell|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Ans</span>]][[User:Ansell/Esperanza|<span style="color:#009000;">e</span>]][[User talk:Ansell|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ll</span>]] 07:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

*'''Strong Delete''' - No name group with no name song, nothing that the world should hear about it. Did this song even have an nr.1 place in any Serbian top list? And to Serbian nationalists here: what happened with the pilot after his plane was "shot down”? Did the Serbian Army catch him? Was he in a Serbian jail? Delete, Wiki doesn’t need such nationalistic songs. --[[User:Bet 0|Bet 0]] 10:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


"Delete, Wiki doesn't need such nationalistic songs" -- is that really the criterion for inclusion?  Nationalistic materials need not apply?  As if nationalism isn't the single most destructive phenomenon of the past 150 years?  That comment doesn't wash.  [[User:Profnjm|Profnjm]] 13:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


ARTICLE WAS MAJORLY IMPROVED TODAY,I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE WHO VOTED DELETE(except Bet 0 and Mig 11)TO LOOK AT THE ARTICLE AGAIN,I BELIEVE THAT THEN ALL OF YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR VOTES AND THIS VOTING CAN BE CLOSED ONCE AND FOR ALL.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 13:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

:I am keeping my '''delete''' vote until: 1. Notability of the song is established.  Right now it is not even mentioned at all in Serbian Wikipedia's entry about this band [[:sr:Индексовци]].  2. copyright issues are resolved.  Do we have permission from the owners of the copyright to the song to include it in its entirety in Wikipedia? [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 14:14, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

::Do we have permission for [[Keep Ya Head Up]] or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_i_Gradiska_stara.

::I dont think so.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 14:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

::::This is exactly why in [[Keep Ya Head Up]] the lyrics are '''not included in the article'''!  We don't need a copyright permission to have an article about the song, but we '''do''' need it for the lyrics. As for [[Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara]], that one to me looks like an excellent candidate for deletion, on the same grounds as this one.  [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 14:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::Or [[Danke Deuchland]].....there are hundreds of examples all over the Wikipedia.

:::::The difference is that El Condor Pada really is important and notable song that should stay.[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 14:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

::::::We still look forward to some '''evidence''' of that, not just your opinion. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 14:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::::All Serbs,Croats and Slovenians on here voted "Keep" and even one Greek vote.All of them heard of it.Theres not a single Serb that never heard of it.Thats enough for "keep"[[User:Dzoni|Dzoni]] 14:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

'''comment''' To all Serbians voting "keep": Why is there still no link to a Serbian version of this article? --  [[User:Austrian|Austrian]] 21:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

'''Comment''' Having reconsidered, this article would fit better as a part of an (yet unexisting) article [[Anti-NATO propaganda in Serbia in 1999]] (or similar titled). As for my previous post here, the original lyrics is now included but as some users pointed out, there might be a copyright violation so keep just an exemplary section or the lyrics included (decide for yourself what part). --'''[[User:tone|Ton]][[User:Tone/Esperanza|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]]''' 21:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>