View source for Wiki143:Articles for deletion/Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni

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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.  ''
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The result of the debate was '''keep'''. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 18:19, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
===[[Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni]]===

:* Delete.  As the sole author, I want this content removed as I do not wish a site that allows lynch mobs and libel and defacement of information to act as a repository for our culture.  There's no guarantee that our information will not be defaced by anonymous internet users. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gadugi|Gadugi]] ([[User talk:Gadugi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gadugi|contribs]]) 03:12, 19 September 2005</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
*'''Keep''' this and all other pages Gadugi has nominated. Contributions must not be redacted. [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] ([[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]]) 04:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
**You need to repeat this comment on all the six pages, since the closing admin will look at them separately. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 05:08, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Several users have edited this article so it doesn't qualify for speedy deletion by the sole contributor. if the article is factual, as I presume it to be, it should remain. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 05:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  This article is very interesting and could be a great resource for anyone wishing to learn more about the Cherokee culture.  --[[User:Icarus3|Icarus]] 05:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''This is All You are Getting'''.  I am NOT going to describe or relate the ancient syllabary on this forum or any other forum at this point.  Our ancient writings will remain secret at this point.   You are wasting your time -- this is all you are going to get from me. Do-na-da Go-hv-i Ni-go Di-sge-s-di [[User:Gadugi|Gadugi]] 05:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
**When did anyone say they wanted you to describe or relate anything more than you've already freely offered? --[[User:Icarus3|Icarus]] 06:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
***Good point.  Is this one of the vitriolic comments I am so used to from admins on this site? [[User:67.177.35.211|67.177.35.211]] 06:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
****No vitriol is intended.  Your choice of words made it sound like you were angry, so I pointed out that there's no need for you to get upset over a request that no one's made. --[[User:Icarus3|Icarus]] 06:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
***** In any case, to the [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]] requirement, Wikipedia does not publish secrets; that is, Wikipedia cannot be used for the ''first'' publication of information that was previously secret. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] [[User_talk:dpbsmith|(talk)]] 22:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
****** I believe this problem has been solved as the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya has directed that the ancient syllabary will not be published anywhere except among our people until the prophecies have been fulfilled. [[User:Gadugi|Gadugi]] 21:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' verifiable information about Cherokee culture. [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster]] 05:43, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per DES. [[User:Penelope D|Penelope D]] 06:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''; no valid criteria for deletion. -- [[User:MCB|MCB]] 06:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Pleased'''; I am pleased. This was indeed a great article.  [[User:67.177.35.211|67.177.35.211]] 06:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - A good article. Hopefuly someone else will be interested in expanding it. -- [[User:Friedo|Friedo]] 07:19, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*User Gadugi, we try ''not'' to allow libel or lynch mobs or such problems.  Where they happen, you can help us better by reverting the bad changes to restore a previous correct version, and by alerting us at the "Vandalism in progress" page.  Welcome, and peace.  [[User:Barno|Barno]] 08:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC), friend to a former WIC nutritionist to the Northern Cheyenne reservation.
* '''Keep''': subject to cleanup and wikification, this looks like a good article. The impression given from this and other nominations is of a user suffering a hissy-fit because of some perceived slight. However, the information has now been released to Wikipedia under the [[GFDL]] which is AFAIK irrevocable. HTH HAND —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 09:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Question''' for [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster]] and others - can anyone verify this information from a printed source? I'm amazed to find nothing online about this ancient syllabary. [[User:Gadugi]]'s talk page makes interesting reading and his veracity has been challenged. There are no records of an "Ah-ni-ku-ta-ni" online (according to Google) and a couple of the user's other edits have been challenged. It's possible that this request for deletion owes something to a wish to avoid being caught out.  There are credited sources for each article - can anyone find them offline to confirm?  Please note that in the absence of independent corroboration I do not have an opinion one way or another on either Gadugi or the facts of this article.[[User:Vizjim|Vizjim]] 10:06, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*Vizjim, I have checked the ISBN for the book ''Cherokee'' cited in the references and Redlightgreen appears to indicate  it is a legitimate book. That being said, I am in Australia and will have difficulty in accessing this book within the timeframe. It would be good if someone in the US could check out this and other sources to confirm that this is a verifiable article about a notable topic. [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster]] 10:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
**[http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1558686037/ref=sib_rdr_idx/102-5423625-7795359?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S03N&j=0#reader-page this amazon link] shows that the book is real, and does have an index entry for the relevant subject. However, that page is not available online via amazon. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
***Great research!! (Now why didn't I think of that?)  The entry there spells it as "Ani-kutani" and that throws up 461 hits on Google.  With that in mind, I'd '''redirect''' to [[Ani-kutani]] and '''keep''' the article.[[User:Vizjim|Vizjim]] 11:19, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
****I've been [[WP:BOLD|bold]] and moved it.  Great research, all around.  -- [[User:Plutor|Plutor]] 13:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*****The problem is, in the process, you have broken the AfD link. Normally articels on Afd are not supposed to be moved for thsi very reason. I would advise that you either move it back or fix the link. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 13:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
******Here's a little more. Searching www.a9.com and selecting "books" (which is about the same as Amazon's "search inside this book") can be useful. The page in question is [http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1558686037/ref=sib_vae_pg_29/002-8401604-3094447?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=priesthood&p=S00Y&twc=3&checkSum=7JWDKVajwQDblxIR1hyP%2F6kiyqx1V1aLDpP0eaqQtUc%3D#reader-page this] but it really only confirms the existence of the "Ani-kutani priesthood." If that link doesn't work due to Amazon's protection against a single user reading too much, go to the book description in Amazon and do a "search inside this book" for "priesthood." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] [[User_talk:dpbsmith|(talk)]] 22:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
**My local library has the book ''Cherokee'' (I live within the Cherokee Nation boundries).  I will get it this afternoon and see how much of this article I can verify. [[User:Dsmdgold|Dsmdgold]] 16:54, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. No valid criteria for deletion. [[User:TheMadBaron|TheMadBaron]] 11:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keep.''' Bad-faith nomination, WP:POINT, etc. etc. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]]/[[User_talk:Bhumiya|Talk]] 12:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''', notable subject.  Whether it's factually accurate or not is not a matter for AfD. -- [[User:Plutor|Plutor]] 13:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - come on, Gadugi, If this is true then it is very important information and should not be covered up.  I have had a similar problem with someone else covering up information I added about the ancient Micmac writing script; see [[Talk:Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing]]...  [[User:Codex Sinaiticus|Codex Sinaiticus]] 16:03, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' No valid criteria for nomination. Wikipedia has no concept of an author owning and article, and every edit page says clearly "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." Where did [[User:Gadugi|Gadugi]] see any "guarantee," express or implied, that contributions would never be defaced? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] [[User_talk:dpbsmith|(talk)]] 22:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keep'''.  [[WP:POINT]].  [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 23:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''phandsvrta keep'''. Notable Subject : Googling "+written cherokee language" reveals the syllabary, at least the 1820s Sequoyah syllabary, which isn't that ancient.  It also reveals a lot of good, learned material on this topic which deserves collation in Wikipedia.  Merkey (aka Gadugi) is attempting to suppress already freely available information.  Don't allow it.
**note that Gadugi has stated that the "ancient syllabary" is much older than, and compeltely different from the syllabary created by Sequoyah. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
*'''phandsvrta keep'''  There's more, from http://www.neosoft.com/powersource/gallery/people/sequoyah.html
This includes a  picture of the syllabary. I'd have pasted it in, but don't know how to use wikipedia for an image yet, and I'm not sure of the copyright status of the source.

*'''Speedy Keep''' I regret my actions here.  Please keep this article.  Also, Phandsvrta is an SCOX member who has been extremely vocal.  Since he does not know anything about our Culture or language, I ask the other editors to heavily scrutinze any edits or defacements he makes to this article. [[User:Gadugi|Gadugi]] 18:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''phandsvrta response'''

I will second Jeff's sentiment to scrutinize all contributions - mine or otherwise.  I have indeed been vocal, and will continue being vocal as long as attempts are made to suppress freedom of information and speech.  And, as far as I know, I haven't made any defacements to this article (I'm not adept at using wikipedia, so don't rule out ignorance or finger trouble!).

Jeff, if there is an older syllabary than that of Sequoyah, why isn't it visible elsewhere? There is a LOT of Cherokee information out there, but all references to a written language only get as far as Sequoyah.  Surely you woudn't want something as fundamental and precious to wither away in obscurity?  

Think of it as adding to the richness found in other, old languages, such as Norn (the ancient language of Orkney), or Ogham (pre-Gaelic Irish), or Kernewek (the direct descendant of the ancient language spoken by Celtic settlers who inhabited Cornwall (Kernow) and most of the British Isles long before the Roman conquest).  Many of these were suppressed by later conquerors, and only survived underground.  They are now being resurrected and appreciated for their historical and cultural value.  I'd want the same for a previously unkown Cherokee written form.  

Wouldn't you want to know how to read the Inca Quipus (spelling?)?

I speak as a Scot, living in Ireland.  Our native Gaelic was brutally suppressed by the English, only surviving in the Western Isles, including Ireland.  As language powerfully shapes a culture, losing languages is, in my opinion, a very bad thing.
*'''Keep''' - and I suppose one of us ''great [google/A9] researchers'' could pick up a phone and call the An-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious organization at the number provided in the references section for more verification. [[User:Dystopos|Dystopos]] 16:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''</div>