View source for User talk:OlEnglish/Cthulhu Mythos reference codes and bibliography

{{oldafdfull| date = 7 June 2013 (UTC) | result = '''merge to [[Cthulhu Mythos deities]]''' | page = Cthulhu Mythos reference codes and bibliography }}
{{WikiProject Bibliographies |class=NA |importance=}}


== Reference codes ==
This system can accommodate a maximum of 676 possible codes (and thus as many references). Allowing for a single-digit number used for the second part of the key (for example: A1, A2, A3, etc.), excluding "zero" which might be confused with "O", this raises the maximum number of possible references to 910. Keep in mind that if you change any codes here (NOT RECOMMENDED), you must also change them in the appropriate table(s) as well.

Note: When adding new codes, be sure your code is not already in use. If the ideal code is already used, try forming your code from a sequential set of letters in the name of the reference. Note that footnotes will still work even if you don't supply one; an advanced user can add the footnote later.

[[User:Gate2Valusia|<sup><span style="color:midnightblue;">G</span><span style="color:crimson;">a</span><span style="color:darkorange;">t</span><span style="color:steelblue;">e</span></sup><span style="color:black;"><big>2</big></span><small><span style="color:purple;">Valusia</span></small>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Gate2Valusia|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Oh?</span>]]<span style="color:black;">..([[Special:Contributions/Gate2Valusia|<span style="color:black;">contribs</span>]])</span></sup> 11:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

==New Short Story found among the Cthulhu Mythos by Vernon Shea called "The Necronomicon"==
A new short story was found depicting the Necronomicon and is called such that was translated into a foreign language and back into english. The short story is called "The Necronomicon" and tells about experiences that Vernon Shea had concerning the book itself. The link to the page is http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/shea.htm. It tells about how Lovecraft covered up the Necronomicon after a thorough historic study was done on HP Lovecraft's essay "History of the Necronomicon". There is no other link in english to this page.   <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/208.4.248.195|208.4.248.195]] ([[User talk:208.4.248.195|talk]]) 00:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Regarding "The Lurking Fear"==
Sorry to say so, but I'm a total noob at manipulating this kind of tool. I'd like more information as to how to do so properly.

I seem to notice that HPL's story ''The Lurking Fear'' does not seem to appear here, and it should be added (conveniently, code LF seems to be free). that would allow the mention of a source to the Martense creatures in the ''Cthulhu Mythos'' article. --[[User:Svartalf|Svartalf]] 18:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

* So that's where ''Martense'' came from&mdash;it's been at least 10 years since I read "The Lurking Fear" which is why I didn't recognize it. However, I think that the ''Martense'' entry '''does not belong''' in the table, as the "The Lurking Fear" is not technically part of the [[Cthulhu mythos]] (and so that entry should be removed&mdash;I think I'll do that now). To the best of my knowledge, "The Lurking Fear" contains no references that would link it, either directly or indirectly, to Lovecraft's ''Cthulhoid'' cycle of myth. I confirmed this by checking Steven J. Mariconda's table of Lovecraft's compositions in his essay collection ''On the Emergence of "Cthulhu" and Other Observations'' (Necronomicon Press, 1995, {{ISBN|0-940-88481-X}}, pp. 41). Mariconda lists '''no''' ''mythos'' references for "The Lurking Fear". Also, in ''The Encyclopedia Cthulhiana'', Daniel Harms includes '''no''' entry for the ''Martense'' clan; thus, we may infer from its absence that Harms likewise does not regard "The Lurking Fear" as part of the "Cthulhu mythos".<br><br>The upshot of this is: I ''recommend'' that you '''do not''' include "The Lurking Fear" in the table. Since this table is specifically for "Cthulhu mythos"-related sources, it should not be laden with stories (even those written by Lovecraft himself!) that have no relationship to the mythos. That being said, I should note that I did include "The Picture in the House" and "Herbert West&mdash;Reanimator" in the table, though they are ''not''  technically mythos stories. I included them only because they contain references to "Miskatonic" and "Arkham". However, I may remove these entries in the future, and instead include a footnote in the relevant tables rather than a reference code (but that's a separate issue).<br><br>BTW, I am not trying to discourage you from adding new entries. Far from it! It's just that you should be sure (or reasonably certain) that any new entries actually belong to (or in) the "Cthulhu mythos".<br><small style="color:blue;">-,-~</small>[[User:RlyehRising|<small><sup>R<big>'lyeh<big>R</big>isin</big>g</sup></small>]]<small style="color:blue;">~-,- 04:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)</small>


:* With due respect, I believe this point of view as unduly restrictive of what does or does not constitute a "mythos" tale. IIRC, the table lists as "Cthulhian" some stories that belong to Lovecraft's "dreamland" and Dunsanian veins, which are more fantasy than terror... I'd have to read them again to check, but I'm not sure that stories like ''Celephaïs'', ''The White Ship'', or ''The Cats of Ulthar'' are any too cthulhoid either... When Lovecraft made up the Mythos, the point was Terror, and, despite its like of Cthulhian buzzwords, such is the point of ''The Lurking Fear'' : It is about things that are impossible, horrible, "blasphemous abnormalities" to quote the text itself, and while nothing is ''said'' of the life of the Martense clan, either before or after abandonment of their house, it can be inferred that it was ''unnatural'' practices that isolated them from the world, eventually leading them to leave the house for a subterranean existence, and that their unknowable lifestyle after that has only made things ''worse''. A story, especially one by HPL, does not need to shout "Iä, Yog Sothoth" every other page to be mythos related.

:As for ''The Picture in the House'', it is clearly mythos related... the old man's lifespan is clearly ''unnatural'', and he got it by ''forbidden'' practices... maybe he regularly attended the Kingsport ''Festival'' too?  --[[User:Svartalf|Svartalf]] 02:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

*It is worth noting that Wikipedia, as a matter of policy, frowns upon '''[[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]]'''. Thus, the criteria for what should or should not be included in Wikipedia cannot be based on personal opinion. Instead, it must be based on '''[[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|verifiable sources]]'''. The reason I exclude "The Lurking Fear" is because I can find no evidence to substantiate it as a ''mythos'' story. And clearly a distinction exists between ''mythos'' stories and ''non-mythos'' stories, because otherwise virtually everything Lovecraft wrote would be considered part of the "Cthulhu mythos" (or, more appropriately, the ''Lovecraft mythos'')&mdash;and this is not a view held by  Lovecraft scholars (at least not the ones I am familiar with). (I should mention that I am very well-read on the subject of Lovecraft, especially the "Cthulhu mythos".)<br><br>In the case of the so-called ''dream stories'' (such as the "White Ship" and ''[[The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath]]'', among others) I think that they are probably included ''by extension'' because they either mention mythos elements or are in some way connected to those elements; though some authors, such as [[Lin Carter]], excluded them entirely from the mythos. Nevertheless, if various accredited scholars recognize the ''dream stories'' as mythos stories, then that's a good enough reason to include them.<br><small style="color:blue;">-,-~</small>[[User:RlyehRising|<small><sup>R<big>'lyeh<big>R</big>isin</big>g</sup></small>]]<small style="color:blue;">~-,- 23:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)</small>


:** Alright... If I intended to do opinion driven editing, it would be done already. But I assume that these mythos articles are being watched by a community of geeks and experts amongs whom I could produce a consensus in favor of my views. After all, what I say is not "original research" : it is the fact that, after reading various texts and opinions about HPL and the mythos, I've read the stories and checked for the patterns, themes and features associated with the mythos and described by HPL himself. I AM basing myself on '''[[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|verifiable sources]]''', namely the stories themselves, and some of the best known commentaries, particularly S T Joshi and his ''annotated Lovecraft'' books. I do agree that some of HPL's stories are not mythos, I just find it superficial and ill considered to do the sorting according to whether the story contains mythos buzz words. For instance I regard such stories as ''The Lurking Fear'', ''Arthur Jermyn'', ''The Picture in the House'', and ''Pickman's Model'' as "mythos", in spite of a lack of obvious mythos related words or events, because their themes and manner are in keeping with the horror laden univers HPL ascribed to his better known mythos tales, while I deny this quality to ''Herbert West'' because, despite the title character having studied at Miskatonic U., the themes and the nature of the horror are thos of a typical "mad scientist" tale, not those of the Lovecraftian universe. 

:Yes, I admit the Dream tales as part of the mythos, because they '''are''' interlaced with mythos themes, beings and motifs, my argument was antithetic in nature. As for Lin Carter, given the overall quality of his production, and his invention of a copious progeny to Cthulhu (including Ghatanotoa who, in more orthodox tales does not show any ties to the Master of R'Lyeh), I think it is obvious he was an even worse idiot than Derleth and his opinions can be safely discarded. By the way, I don't think there are any "verifiable" sources beside the stories themselves, and critical analyses you've studied and agreed with, because the published sources (say, the ''Encyclopedia Cthuliana'') rely only or at least mostly on their author's opinion, not on a well established body of knowledge and interpretation... they are generally regarded as authorities only because they were mass published, that is, the authors took the pains of compilating stuff, for which the books are very convenient, but it is no guarantee of the author being right, and given the rather obscure and specialized nature of the subject... I'm not sure that finding a publisher is any guarantee. I will disparage the ''Encyclopedia Cthuliana'' not because it is bad, or lacks seriousness, but because you mentioned it, and I happen to disagree on this point. Mr Harms does not mention the Martense in his book. Is it because he studied the case carefully, and ended up rejecting the idea of the story being mythos on serious grounds, or did he review it hastily and pass it by because it lacks the most obvious marks of the mythos? I feel it's the second. Then again, I would like to hear what he has to say on the matter. The ''nature'' of the horror in ''The Lurking Fear'' leads me to think it is mythos, in spite of the absence of obvious markers. Don't trust books written by others whose method and reasoning you don't know. Read it, think, and then tell me if you still think the same way. In any case, I won't edit on that subject before I feel I have a consensus, or at least support.
 --[[User:Svartalf|Svartalf]] 01:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
:*Let me be clear that my arguments for ''excluding'' "The Lurking Fear" applies ''only to this table''. You are free of course to '''write an article''' about the story. Such an article would also be a good place to include a section about the ''Martense family''.<br><br>The problem with asserting that the stories themselves are ''verifiable'' is problematic because different readers may come to different conclusions. In the case of "The Lurking Fear", a first-time reader with no knowledge of the "Cthulhu mythos" will have a different take than those who are intimately familiar with it. Thus, you yourself may find parallels to the myth-cycle simply because you know of its existence (and certainly such parallels must exist because the story was written by Lovecraft and Lovecraft invented the mythos!) But to state such views in an article constitutes original research not because they are invalid but because they are asserted by ''you''. If, on the other hand, these views come from a published source (which by virtue of being "mass published" means that it is open to peer-review and criticism by Lovecraft scholars) then those views are considered ''[[Wikipedia:NPOV|neutral]]'' (i.e., not your own) and thus meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. So, it would be perfectly acceptable to include the analysis of such scholars as [[S. T. Joshi]] (as might appear in his commentaries) as long as you do not intentionally augment or reinterpret these views to fit your own opinion. (However! you may express your views about the story on the article's discussion page&mdash;but I wouldn't recommend writing an essay-length analysis; though I believe there is a separate wiki-project for just that sort of thing.) <br><small style="color:blue;">-,-~</small>[[User:RlyehRising|<small><sup>R<big>'lyeh<big>R</big>isin</big>g</sup></small>]]<small style="color:blue;">~-,- 03:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)</small>

== Repeated code ==
HA appears to be used twice. [[User:Darker Dreams|Darker Dreams]] ([[User talk:Darker Dreams|talk]]) 14:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

==Merge after AfD tags==
:Prior debaters pinged: {{ping|User:Thumperward}} {{ping|User:Colonel Warden}} {{ping|User:Quiddity}} {{ping|User:DGG}} {{ping|User:Yaksar}} {{ping|User:J04n}} {{ping|User:Miniapolis}} {{ping|User:Citrusbowler}} {{ping|User talk:Me and}} and [[Wikipedia:Proposed mergers|Merger Request Noticeboard]] (to help generate more interest).

I fear this merge after AfD will never happen.  I don't know what to do with this "article" (if it even is one); and splitting and merging such a huge list as the AfD directed is problematical, to say the least.  Because there is not even rudimentary directions included with this reference/index list, it's hard to understand how this index is even to be used.  As it has now been sitting in the merge-que for nigh on ten months shows an over-all lack of enthusiasm for this action, and therefore, it appears it would be near impossible to finish a merge as was requested.  

I suggest that the "article" be either ''Userfied'' (using soft redirects as necessary); put into Draft-Space until completed; or simply Deleted.  (Other alternatives might be if someone familiar with this thing were to improve it, and/or do the merger themselves; or just keep it "as-is.")  Whatever way it can be resolved, can we proceed with a plan of action to remove this from the merge-que.  [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 23:40, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

===Comments===

I have looked at this article and I can see no real solution other than to delete. I put up a request for a bot to reformat the two articles so they can be merged, but really it feel like a whole lot of work for little gain. If someone comes forward and wants to keep this content, then I would welcome them to it, but it really does not make an acceptable article. --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 05:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

== Requested move 21 December 2015 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved''' per uncontested and rational request below. Not sure this is the best place for it to live, but it better than where it was. {{rmnac}} [[User:Tiggerjay|Tiggerjay]] ([[User talk:Tiggerjay|talk]]) 18:48, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

----


[[:Cthulhu Mythos reference codes and bibliography]] → {{no redirect|Wikipedia:Cthulhu Mythos reference codes and bibliography}} – As far as I can tell, this article is an explanation of the reference notation used on Wikipedia articles, not a description of some extra-Wikipedia reference notation. As such, it does not belong in the main space, and should be in the Wikipedia-space to help people understand the notation within Wikipedia articles. [[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 05:01, 21 December 2015 (UTC) <small>''Relisted''. [[User:Jenks24|Jenks24]] ([[User talk:Jenks24|talk]]) 11:07, 29 December 2015 (UTC)</small><small>--'''Relisted.''' [[User:Jcc|jcc]] ([[User talk:Jcc#top|tea and biscuits]]) 21:58, 7 January 2016 (UTC)</small>
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->