View source for Template talk:Infobox settlement

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{{Old AfD multi |date1=31 December 2014 |result1='''Do not merge''' |link1={{canonicalurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 31#Template:Infobox_settlement}} |date2=2019 March 3 |result2='''No consensus to merge''' |link2={{canonicalurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 March 3#Template:Infobox former subdivision}} |date3=2020 July 19 |result3='''No consensus''' |link3={{canonicalurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 July 19#Template:Infobox Australian place}} |date4=2020 August 23 |result4='''Keep''' |link4={{canonicalurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 23#Template:Infobox U.S. state symbols}} |date5=2020 September 22 |result5='''No consensus''' |link5={{canonicalurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 22#Template:Infobox province or territory of Canada}} |date6=4 September 2021 |result6='''No consensus''' |page6=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 September 4#Template:Infobox former subdivision |date7=19 July 2024 |result7='''Keep''' |page7=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 July 19#Settlement infobox templates}}
{{Archives|auto=short|Other archives:
*[[Template talk:Infobox settlement/Archive 2012 TfD|2012 TfD]]}}

== Dark mode problem with image_map ==

[[Greater Toronto Area]] uses [[:File:Greater Toronto Area map.svg]] for the image_map parameter of this template. Unfortunately, that image has a transparent background, meaning that in dark mode, the black text it uses in the outer areas is unreadable. There is no image_class parameter for this template which would allow me to set the CSS class of this map to "skin-invert-image" which would fix the problem (though it would also generate some ugly colors). -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 01:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

:Fixed with {{tl|!}} and documented. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 10:49, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

==Edit request 27 February 2025==
To change "named_for" to "named_after". Reason: while the two phrases are considered synonymous in American English, they are ''not'' in British English, where 'named after' means 'in honour of' ("I'd like to name this after Xxxx, who died last year"), and 'named for' means 'named at the request of' ("could you name this for me, please"). Having "named for" looks very ugly to UK eyes, particularly when appearing on UK-related pages. Thanks! - [[User:MPF|MPF]] ([[User talk:MPF|talk]]) 00:02, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

:Someone, please! Additional point: at wikidata, the standard is also [[:wikidata:Property:P138|named after]] - [[User:MPF|MPF]] ([[User talk:MPF|talk]]) 21:17, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

::{{Done}} — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 21:37, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Hike395|Hike395]] many thanks, much appreciated! - [[User:MPF|MPF]] ([[User talk:MPF|talk]]) 22:13, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

== Overriding short description ==

Is there a way to actually ''remove'' the auto-generated short description?  The documentation says to add a {{tl|short description}} template at the top of the article, but that actually gives it ''two'' short descriptions.  You'll see them if you have preferences enabled to show the short desc in gray at the top of articles.

I know this isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it rubs me the wrong way; I'd really like to have just one short description, even when the auto-generated one is problematic. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:03, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
:Looking up higher in this talk page, I found the answer:  you can add <code>short_description = no</code> to the parameters.
:<small>Why <code>short_description = no</code> instead of just <code>short_description = </code>?  That's a side issue; I don't want to fixate on that.  But I do think that would be a better syntax.</small>
:Anyway, I think this parameter should be documented in the documentation for {{tl|infobox settlement}}, but when I went to edit the documentation, it turns out that the banner talking about the autogenerated short description comes from another template, {{tl|auto short description}}, and it wasn't clear to me whether the same parameter applies everywhere that that template is transcluded.  Could someone look into this? --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:13, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
The infobox uses the [[Module:Settlement short description|Settlement short description module]] to create a SD based on various infobox parameters. This "auto generated" SD can sometimes produce a long or "messy" SD that triggers error reports. Adding <code>short_description = no</code> to the infobox instructs the module to not do this. Setting the switch does not set an alternative SD, but allows the SD in the article to be the only one. I have added a line to the documentation — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 20:14, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
:{{ping|Trovatore}} — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 20:15, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks, {{u|GhostInTheMachine}}.  But I'm afraid I still think it's not very discoverable.  At the top of the page there's a blue circle with a lowercase i in it that says {{tq|This template adds an automatically generated short description. If the automatic short description is not optimal, replace it by adding {{tl|Short description}} at the top of the article.}}.  That's where I'd really like the documentation to show up, if it's possible.  It seems to be a big mess to figure out how to add that, with all the transclusions and so on. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 01:19, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
::: The {{tl|auto short description}} template is a flag in the template documentation that adds the template to a category and displays that information message. The message is fixed, but it is correct for '''all''' cases – if the auto-SD from the infobox is not good enough, then override it by adding a {{tl|short description}} template ''at the top of the article''. The infobox auto-SD is generated with {{code|noreplace}} set and so any manual SD from the article would be the one that is used. In some '''rare''' occasions, the auto-SD (while not used) does trigger an error report. In this case, it can be suppressed via adding <code>short_description = no</code> to the article infobox.
::: So, the SD from the infobox is often good enough or it can be easily superseded by editing the article and adding a {{tl|short description}} template at the top. Only very rarely is there any need to use the <code>short_description = no</code> trick — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 13:34, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
:::: Well, it depends on what you mean by "need".  I have a CSS setting that shows the SD on the web version, and seeing two SDs, well, let's say I find it untidy.  As I said in my initial message, this isn't the biggest deal in the world, but I would prefer that the autogenerated SD were always removed whenever a local one is set. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 18:24, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
::::: If you really do not want to see the ghost SD, then add the line {{code|.shortdescription ~ .shortdescription { display: none !important; } }} to [[User:Trovatore/common.css|your common.css]] after the existing line  — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 07:28, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::: Well, but I still know it's "there", whatever that means.  This is my aesthetic sense as a software engineer complaining.  I would just prefer it weren't there.  As I said not the biggest deal in the world, but it's a "code smell". --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 19:06, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::As far as I know, the shortdesc helper gadget shows only the canonical SD for a given page, properly ignoring the replaced automatic version when there is an article-local description. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 02:57, 13 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::: True. Trovatore was expressing disquiet about the ghost SD displayed via the CSS override. I have offered suitable CSS that modifies the override — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 08:26, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::: Apparently I didn't explain myself sufficiently.  I wasn't upset about myself seeing it, exactly.  I was upset that the second SD was still "there" to be seen.  I haven't looked into the software sufficiently to be sure what "there" even means, but it seems like a [[code smell]]. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 17:53, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::Items wrapped with "display:none" are still "there" also, as is a whole bunch of other stuff that is normally hidden from the typical reader. When you choose to show deliberately hidden items with custom CSS, I think that is for you to cope with. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 16:33, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

== Worrying trend on articles about Croatian coastal cities that were under occupation by Fascist Italy ==

Moved to [[WT:HRV#Worrying trend on articles about Croatian coastal cities that were under occupation by Fascist Italy|WT:HRV]]. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 08:23, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

== on rendering wikidata ==

Following up on [[Template talk:Infobox settlement/Archive 33#using wikidata as fallback at least?]]...

Today I found an apparent error by looking at the newly rendered map on [[Popovska reka]]. The Wikidata entry actually references a database for that value, and the value is clearly at odds with the description in the article.

I think this is another example where we'd benefit from rendering the coordinates more, not less, because this gives visibility to issues. Most editors won't recognize errors just from looking at the numbers.

Obviously both of my recent controversial examples have been about {{tl|infobox river}}, but I figured there's more readership here. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 08:53, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

== Seat field ==

Should not the fields 'seat' and 'seat_type' sit under the government heading, rather than just above it? [[User:Dgp4004|Dgp4004]] ([[User talk:Dgp4004|talk]]) 08:48, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

== enable mapframe wherever pushpin_map is specified, but no other map ==

So, currently we have mapframe enabled wherever no map is specified. The rollout went fairly well, we patched up various syntax errors, and I've seen zero reader complaints about having the mapframe enabled.

Because the pushpin maps are generally used to give a more general overview (small dot in a large area), while the mapframes by default zoom in at coordinate type level, it would make sense to try showing both.

We'd continue to skip mapframe by default if any sort of image map is specified.

I suspect we'd have to deal with a smattering of new syntax errors, but beyond that, the readers would be by and large happier to have this. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 10:40, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

:Sounds good, but may want to check whether users are already adding mapframe maps manually either by placing {{tlx|infobox mapframe}} <code><mapframe></code> code via the <code>|image_map</code> (which you mention), <code>|module </code> or indeed any other parameters. An insource search should find examples. Regs, [[User:The Equalizer|The Equalizer]] ([[User talk:The Equalizer|talk]]) 00:14, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::This may be a bad idea. Infoboxes are often used on very short pages. Having a second map automatically appear can push other infobox information below the bottom of the article content, which makes the layout look bad and may lead to readers ignoring the information. We should be careful about infobox length bloat. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 03:40, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Any infobox content, such as a picture or a map, next to a short stub is going to make the layout look imbalanced. That is the nature of having a very small amount of content, surely?
:::We're not going to affect the general concept of stub content being short by adding generally helpful information to the infoboxes. These things will remain orthogonal.
:::Who are these readers who depend on information in an infobox, but can't figure out when there's a need for vertical scrolling to see more? Which part of the internet teaches them not to scroll? Honest question, because we seem to be [[infinite scrolling|neck deep in scrolling]] these days :)
:::I tried to come up with an example for what you seem to be describing, so I skimmed randomly through Wales geography stubs for a while, but the best I could find was [[Gendros]] - where someone added a map manually near the bottom. D'oh.
:::So I gave up on that method and tried a search like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=incategory%3A%22United+Kingdom+geography+stubs%22+hastemplate%3A%22Infobox+settlement%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1&searchToken=8yj4keveery509zbb2cd6rcp1 incategory:"United Kingdom geography stubs" hastemplate:"Infobox settlement"] and that quickly found [[Walton (grounds)]].
:::On my desktop browser, that infobox at Walton grounds gets cut off at "Region" already. Not sure how an extra map would change anything substantial here, it would just get cut off at a different visual element, but it would be equally as obvious that you have to scroll down to see more.
:::I checked the same stub on my mobile browser, and most of the screen was taken up by Wiki Loves Earth already :) and the infobox only showed the title. Still, that was enough to visually indicate that there's a box there and scrolling would show more. When I pressed the (X) on the banner, it rendered up to half the existing map. It was likewise pretty obvious you have to scroll down.
:::Coming back to the example of Gendros, my mobile browser, without the top banner, showed the infobox down to "Post town". After the box, there was a paragraph, and then the map, and then another bit of content. Based on that, I don't quite see what would be the downside of integrating that map into the infobox there, either.
:::So I'm at a loss as to what the actual concern is here. Could you please elaborate? --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 15:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::We don't need more stuff added by default to infoboxes! • [[User:Sbmeirow|<span style="color:#8D38C9;">Sbmeirow</span>]] • [[User talk:Sbmeirow|<span style="color:#8D38C9;White;">Talk</span>]] • 06:59, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Could you explain why, please? --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 15:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

== Auto population density ==

Perhaps a dumb question, but why does "auto" never work when I put it into infobox settlement templates? [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 19:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)
:Make sure to use the correct and matching parameters in the template, example below:
:<syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext class=gridbox>
{{Infobox settlement
|area_total_km2          = 1
|population_total        = 1
|population_density_km2  = auto
|area_rural_km2          = 2 
|population_rural        = 4
|population_density_rural_km2 = auto
}}
</syntaxhighlight>
:gives
{|
|{{Infobox settlement
|area_total_km2          = 1
|population_total        = 1
|population_density_km2  = auto
|area_rural_km2          = 2 
|population_rural        = 4
|population_density_rural_km2 = auto
}}{{clear}}
:Regs, [[User:The Equalizer|The Equalizer]] ([[User talk:The Equalizer|talk]]) 23:47, 17 June 2025 (UTC)
::Just as an example, I was trying to do this on the [[Belgrade]] article, where I have to move around some of the area, population and density figures, and simply could not get the density figures to work with "auto." [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 00:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Fixed. The population numbers contained refs, which means auto could not calculate correctly. Those cites have been moved to the correct parameters. Beware of some new caveats:
:::* The densities are auto rounded to the nearest tens or hundreds, you will have to readd the exact numbers if you prefer those;
:::* The citations are not on the ends of the numbers but on the ends of the parameter titles, which is tidier and an ideal format.
:::Regs, [[User:The Equalizer|The Equalizer]] ([[User talk:The Equalizer|talk]]) 00:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks, though I was not wanting to actually do it that way, was just testing to see if it works. I understand now that it can't do it to numbers with citations on the end of them. Though, it seems to have been pretty standard around here for many years to place citations on the numbers. And, yeah, that rounding is not helpful. I'd understanding rounding ''after'' the deciminal, but before is not helpful for when you want to represent accurate population densities. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 16:55, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
|}