View source for Template talk:Bibleverse

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== Displaying the translation in the citation? ==

It may not be obvious to the reader that a given citation of a Bible verse is from a particular translation. It certainly wasn't immediately obvious to me at [[The Bible and homosexuality]]. I had to inspect the URL and take a guess.

I think it would be a good idea to include the name of the translation in the citation, with a wikilink to the translation's article if available. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 11:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

:I just noticed that [[User:GraemeLeggett]] mentioned that the citations generated by this template lack this rather pertinent information. I'm a little surprised that nobody noticed. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 11:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::I suppose this template needs to decide on what it is. If we're talking about using it as a reference for quoting the Bible, then I agree; it should absolutely be in some form of {{t|cite book}} format. According to [[Bible citation]], though, all that is needed is the book name and verse; however, this is antithetical to the stated purpose of this template to specifically ''not'' be an in-line reference. I'm happy to code up whatever is decided, but I don't necessarily want to be making a ton of changes that then need to be reverted because a local consensus says one thing and broader consensus after the change is made says another. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::To be honest, I took a look at the code earlier today, to see if I implement it myself, and I found the code really hard to understand. All the information about sites, books, and versions broken up into separate tables, and the common logic is mixed in with special cases for each source. I'm not sure that putting another pair of tables in the code (one for whether to wikilink, another to specify the title or link text) is a wise idea. Is there a particular reason for the individual tables, rather than having one table each for versions, sites, etc., or is it just the way the code has grown over the years?
:::If the latter, I'd be sorely tempted to rewrite the module. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 13:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I didn't build the module, so I can't really speak to its structure; [[Template_talk:Bibleverse/Archive_1#Replacing_the_tool_with_a_Lua_module|this]] and subsequent discussions are about the module conversion. If you think you can do a better/cleaner job than what's already there, by all means go for it; the merger with the other Bible verse templates was a pain in the arse trying to plug all of the extras in there. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 13:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

== Biblica issues ==

Just noting here for future reference that Biblica has changed formats; NLT is now the "New Luo Translation" in [[Dholuo]] (see e.g. {{Bibleverse|Genesis|1:15–16|nlt}}). If all of [[Template:Bibleverse#List_of_versions|these codes]] for NIV are ''supposed'' to link to the NIV, methinks the module should be changed to point to the NIV version if any of the relevant Biblica codes are entered.

Note that I have yet to check if the other codes for the other sites still work as intended. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:48, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

== Rewriting and extending [[Module:Bibleverse]] ==

I'm currently rewriting the module that backs this template so that it is (hopefully) easier to extend and maintain.

The key change is the consolidation of most of the separate tables in the module into three: one for books, one for versions, one for hosting sites. These tables then become a convenient place to put all of the special-case data and functionality. I hope to add some new functionality to the module in doing so:

* The ability to indicate the version of the Bible in the template output.
* A more flexible "multi" mode: the NRSV is currently hardcoded as the version to use when querying BibleGateway.
* The ability to override the site to link to (if desired, it seems to be a current use case – see below).
* The option to provide a link to alternative translations (as used in an ad-hoc manner [[The Bible and homosexuality#cite_note-8|here]], at least).

Still, I've discovered that the [[Template:Bibleverse#List_of_versions|documentation on versions IDs]] is rather sparse. It's unclear why certain abbreviations correspond to certain versions (look at all of them that point to the NIV), and I've found code for handling undocumented version abbreviations:

* <code>bb</code>, <code>bbc</code>, <code>bbl</code>, and <code>opb</code>: these co-opt the version field to select Bible Hub specifically. It's unclear to me which version of the Bible this site uses by default, so I'm not quite sure how to handle them.

* <code>jpr</code>, and <code>jp</code>: these two are only seen in an if statement, which overrides them with <code>he</code> should they be the given version. A code comment appears to provide context: <code>chabad doesn't work so reroute</code>, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what these codes were originally referring to.

Feedback on these suggestions and advice on the meanings of the abbreviations are both very much welcome. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 13:18, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

:* Indicating the version in the output is a great idea.
:* Flexibility for multiple verses is great.
:* One feature of the template is to allow for changes to all these websites. The editor should be able to designate the Bible version, and then if in the future the website that hosts that version goes down, or if the way their URLs changes, the template can be adjusted so that every reference to that version doesn't have to be changed. If we let the user pick the website as well, it becomes much more complicated. What if that website goes down? Are there cases where the editor needs to be able to designate the website?
:* In my opinion, the use case showing a link to "alternative translations" is promoting original research. How does it help the reader understand the text to just be shown 42 translations of the same text with no commentary on why they differ? Instead, the editor should be referring to reliable source scholarship on how the text should be translated.
:* On the versions that link to the NIV, my guess is that Biblica used to host those versions, and then at some point they stopped. The best solution would be to reroute those to to the best source for those translations, or just let them fall to Bible Gateway. I'll admit I don't have a lot of energy for that. In my opinion, almost every use of this template should link to the NRSV, which is the dominant choice of biblical scholars. Versions like the NLT and the Message have no place on Wikipedia.
:* Those Bible Hub codes are for backwards compatibility after merging several other templates into this template. Those codes should be deprecated, as I don't think there are valid use cases for Bible Hub. In my opinion it will always be used for original research.
:* I don't know the answer to jpr and jp, but what I know is this template used to link to an external tool that linked to a site called Chabad that hosted some versions that some Wikipedia editors writing on Judaism liked to use. When it went down, or at least stopped linking to that version in the same way, we decided to link to mechon mamre because I believe the main purpose was to show Hebrew. You can find some discussions if you search the talk archive. This is kind of illustrative of the problem with allowing the user to pick the website. In my opinion, the purpose of this tool should be to allow editors to easily link to Bible verses, not a panoply of Bible-related websites. An alternative solution would be to hunt down every use of codes that are not real Bible versions and fix them.
:--[[User:Jfhutson|JFHutson]] ([[User talk:Jfhutson|talk]]) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::For the issue with several versions linking to the NIV, I've made a proposed fix in the [[Module:Bibleverse/sandbox|sandbox]]. I added an Amplified Bible reference to [[Template:Bibleverse/testcases|testcases]]. If someone else would review and implement I'd appreciate it. --[[User:Jfhutson|JFHutson]] ([[User talk:Jfhutson|talk]]) 20:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::So, if I understand what you're saying (compounded by my own guesses at abbreviations):
:::* <code>amp</code> and <code>ab</code> are for the [[Amplified Bible]]. I presume the deletion is to allow them to fall through to Bible Gateway?
:::* <code>msg</code> is for [[The Message (Bible)]]
:::* <code>nlt</code> is for the [[New Living Translation]]
:::I'll do a deep dive into archives and old revisions of the module. If I can bring chabad up in the Wayback Machine, and the site was ever suitable for Wikipedia, it will say which versions it was hosting.
:::Good observation: site overrides reduce the reliability of Wikipedia's external links. Getting an archive-bot to redirect to a snapshot on the Wayback Machine would be tricky, as the URLs don't exist in source code.
:::Your point about alternative translations makes sense, too. I suppose that, if pointing to them is necessary, you're probably going against [[WP:RSPSCRIPTURE]], because scripture is "only suitable for attributed, relevant quotes." Attribution, at least in my opinion, ought to include the translation for something as particular as a religious text.
:::You wouldn't happen to know how to search the ''source code'' of pages, would you? That would make the job of surveying all 8,000 uses of the template much easier. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 22:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::::Yes on those abbreviations. The deletion is to fallback to Bible Gateway, which is an improvement on sending them to the wrong translation. See [[H:INSOURCE]] for searching the source code. I also think you could do something with [[WP:AWB]]. Sorry I don't have the capacity or interest at the moment. --[[User:Jfhutson|JFHutson]] ([[User talk:Jfhutson|talk]]) 00:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::Using <code>insource:</code> when you search will give you an in-source search. /<text>/ will give regex, "<text>" will search for exact text [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 14:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::FWIW, I found the old Bible Verse Finder tool that this module was written to replace. https://web.archive.org/web/20230202203452/https://bibleversefinder2.toolforge.org/ It looks like the Chabad translations were "Judaica Press Complete Tanach" (JP) and "Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi" (JPR). I do not think it is worth trying to track those down, just providing the info. -- [[User:Jfhutson|JFHutson]] ([[User talk:Jfhutson|talk]]) 16:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::So JPR and JP are actually distinct from Jewish Publication Society that they currently point to. I'll bear that in mind; it might not be that hard to find them considering that the translation is at least  [[Jewish_English_Bible_translations#Judaica_Press|mentioned on-wiki]]. I've aggregated an insource search for the template, which I'll comprehensively scrape for transclusions, so we can get a rough idea of its current pattern of usage. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 16:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Addendum: Chabad ''does'' work; I can access it via a reference on the page linked above. The site's URLs are oddly formed, which might interesting to get right in code, but it seems doable. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 16:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::More power to you, I'm just dubious that a Hebrew-English interlinear with a medieval rabbinical commentary is often appropriate as a reference for a general use English encyclopedia. -- [[User:Jfhutson|JFHutson]] ([[User talk:Jfhutson|talk]]) 16:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::That's a fair point. I'm more focused on the technical side of things, clearing up the warts and inconsistencies in the module, and getting everything documented, than how [[WP:RSPSCRIPTURE]] bears on it. A discussion about the circumstances that would support citing a given version should probably wait until after the technical problems are solved and everything is accurate. [[User:EnronEvolved|EnronEvolved]]<sup>[[User talk:EnronEvolved|My Talk Page]]</sup> 17:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

== Edit request 26 February 2025 ==

{{edit template-protected|answered=yes}}
'''Description of suggested change:'''
This is for [[Module:Bibleverse]], but I was wondering if someone could program the [[Geneva Bible]] in the program.  Although it is only partially available on [[Wikisource]], it is available on other sites, such as [[Bible Gateway]].  <br>
'''Diff:'''
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
--before
local version_num_codes = {
	[9] = 'kjv', [31] = 'niv', [45] = 'amp', [49] = 'nasb', [64] = 'nivuk',
	[51] = 'nlt', [65] = 'msg', [76] = 'nirv', [105] = 'he', [104] = 'jps',
	[120] = 'opb', [121] = 'bb', [122] = 'bbc', [123] = 'bbl', [131] = 'nrsv',
}
</syntaxhighlight>
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">
--after
local version_num_codes = {
	[8] = 'geneva', [9] = 'kjv', [31] = 'niv', [45] = 'amp', [49] = 'nasb', [64] = 'nivuk',
	[51] = 'nlt', [65] = 'msg', [76] = 'nirv', [105] = 'he', [104] = 'jps',
	[120] = 'opb', [121] = 'bb', [122] = 'bbc', [123] = 'bbl', [131] = 'nrsv',
}
</syntaxhighlight>

[[User:Z. Patterson|Z. Patterson]] ([[User talk:Z. Patterson|talk]]) 05:05, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
:Why not put that edit in the sandbox? Then you could post a couple of examples using {{tl|bibleverse/sandbox}}.
{{#invoke:convert/tester|compare|Bibleverse|prefix=:}}
:[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 05:41, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
:{{Not done}}: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see [[Wikipedia:Template sandbox and test cases|WP:TESTCASES]].<!-- Template:ETp --> I agree with John on this, please sandbox to make sure it works as intended. I don't think ''only'' adding in a version number code will have the intended effect. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 13:25, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

== Add |ref parameter for sfnref support ==

Could the |ref= parameter be added for {{t|sfnref}}? I appreciate the citation is already very short, but this would enable consistency for certain citation styles.

The template is locked, otherwise I’d have a go myself. [[User:Elrondil|Elrondil]] ([[User talk:Elrondil|talk]]) 02:43, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
:Changes would have to be made in [[Module:Bibleverse]]. The template page shows the link ([[Module:Bibleverse/sandbox]]) for the sandbox which anyone can edit. Use {{tl|bibleverse/sandbox}} to test. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 07:51, 3 April 2025 (UTC)