View source for Talk:White Ship disaster

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== Date of sinking ==

I am reverting this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Ship&type=revision&diff=1010483763&oldid=1002563685 Revision as of 18:30, 5 March 2021] by [[user:Jardeheu]] which changed the date of the sinking from 25th to 24th November 1119.

I am worried that is [[WP:RGW|righting a great wrong]] because the edit which changes the date added "(and not 25 November 1120, as widely mentioned)." To support the change  [[user:Jardeheu]] uses as an unreliable source that analyses a primary source: http://closducotentin.over-blog.fr/2020/11/essai-d-enquete-nautique-sur-le-naufrage-de-la-blanche-nef-a-barfleur-au-xiie-siecle.html

The website ( http://closducotentin.over-blog.fr/ ) states on its home page
{|
|-
!French!!Google translated 
|-
|Ce site présente les actualités proposées par l'équipe du Pays d'art et d'histoire du Clos du Cotentin. Il contient également des dossiers documentaires consacrés au patrimoine et à l'histoire de Valognes, Bricquebec et Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte. ||This site presents the news proposed by the team of the Country of art and history of Clos du Cotentin. It also contains documentary files devoted to the heritage and history of Valognes, Bricquebec and Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte. 
|}

I Checked 
*{{Cite ODNB |first=J. F. A.|last=Mason|title=William [William Ætheling, William Adelinus, William Adelingus] (1103–1120)|id=29453 |date=23  September 2004}}
And while Mason does not categorically state the sinking took place on 25th he makes it clear that it happened no earlier than the 25th:
{{Quote|but when Henry embarked for England with his son from Barfleur on 25 November 1120, all the king's achievements were overthrown by one of the greatest and most frequently recounted personal tragedies of English history. Henry sailed first, having turned down the offer of a new ship—the White Ship—from Thomas Fitzstephen; the Ætheling and his retinue (reminiscent of the youthful entourage once enjoyed by his uncle Robert Curthose) followed in the new vessel.}}

So I think that as Wikipedia is a follower and not a place for publishing original research, if the date of the sinking is to be changed it must be done by citing 21st century reliable secondary sources. -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 15:19, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

== Presumed section found ==

A reputable newspaper has reported this week that a significant portion of likely wreckage has been found in a likely location. [[Special:Contributions/94.30.84.71|94.30.84.71]] ([[User talk:94.30.84.71|talk]]) 19:24, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

:Is [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/09/earl-spencer-helps-find-shipwreck-changed-course-british-history/ this] it (''Daily Telegraph''; NB paywall)? [[Special:Contributions/84.9.119.66|84.9.119.66]] ([[User talk:84.9.119.66|talk]]) 01:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

== What was the outcome of The Anarchy? ==
I am wonder who won in at the end of The Anarchy and whether it is relevant here or not. -[[User:Maescam|Maescam]] ([[User talk:Maescam|talk]]) 02:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

== How reliable can the sources for details of the be? ==

So, the passage
{{talkquote|William Adelin got into a small boat and could have escaped but turned back to try to rescue his half-sister, Matilda, when he heard her cries for help. His boat was swamped by others trying to save themselves, and William drowned along with them}}

How is this known? There was only one survivor and he was pretty busy clinging to a rock. And it was night. That's not even counting the details like the voice was the guy's half sister. Theres's more, like the captain drowning himself etc. I can't read the sources, but my presumption is that they ''can't'' be reliable for these facts. 

We ought to say "according to legend, first written down in year X, such and such happened..." or something. Unless I'm missing something. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 02:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move 7 September 2024 ==

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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> <span style="color:#1E90FF;">Charlotte</span> ([[User:Queen of Hearts|<span style="color:#BC64E8;">Queen of Hearts</span>]] • [[User talk:Queen of Hearts|<span style="color:#FF1493;">talk</span>]]) 20:27, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
----

[[:White Ship]] → {{no redirect|White Ship  disaster}} – This article is not about the ship, but about the ship's sinking. Indeed it could not be about the ship—there's not enough available to say/know on just the ship. We should refer to it by what readers would expect (the [[principle of least astonishment]]). Indeed there is already precedent for this on Wikipedia: see the [[Victims of the White Ship disaster|Victims of the ''White Ship'' disaster]].

A quick google search for "White Ship disaster" shows that this is by no means uncommon: 6,640 web results and 2,960 book results. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 19:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. As OP states, the article is about the [[White ship disaster|''White Ship'' disaster]], not solely the ship, and this move will make the article [[WP:CRITERIA|consistent]] with [[victims of the White Ship disaster]]. Sources by subject matter experts (medievalists and historians) attest that "''White ship'' disaster" is the common name for this topic: [http://ccl.idm.oclc.org/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/scholarly-journals/white-ship-disaster/docview/274941905/se-2?accountid=10141], [https://www.readingmuseum.org.uk/blog/death-and-anarchy-white-ship-disaster], [https://www.medievalists.net/2019/12/white-ship-disaster/], etc. [[User:Hydrangeans|Hydrangeans]] ([[She (pronoun)|she/her]] &#124; [[User talk:Hydrangeans#top|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Hydrangeans|edits]]) 10:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' the OP makes a cogent and persuasive argument. I agree that, since we know nothing as to the ship's functioning history—its order, construction, launch, victualing, crewing, ownership, voyages etc.—and we focus on what we ''do'' know, that should be reflected in the article title. The sinking, rather than the ship itself. [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<b style="color:#7a0427;">SerialNumber</b>]]''[[Special:Contributions/Serial_Number_54129|<b style="color:#17662c;">54129</b>]]'' 11:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
*Would prefer [[Sinking of the White Ship]] or [[Wreck of the White Ship]], but [[White Ship disaster]] is an improvement over the present title, and if links I haven't clicked say it's the common name, then why not '''support'''. I don't even know why this is on my watchlist, so I'm probably not the best judge of title. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
*:Either would be an improvement, though I don't know that they trump "disaster" in sources. At the very least, both would be solid redirects. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 05:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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