View source for Talk:Ultra (cryptography)

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{{old moves|date1=15 May 2011|from1=Ultra|destination1=Ultra (cryptography)|result1=No consensus, move reverted|link1=Special:Permalink/1186927248#Requested_move
|date2=18 November 2023|from2=Ultra|destination2=Ultra (cryptography)|result2=Moved|link2=Special:Permalink/1186860891#Requested_move_18_November_2023}}

==Harris==
The reference to Sir Arthur Harris of RAF Bomber Command, though it correctly relates what Frederick Taylor says in his book about Dresden, is misleading. The only result of Harris's objections to the bombing campaign against German oil plants (as a non-Ultra, he could not know how effective these attacks really were) was his tetchy correspondence on the subject with the Chief of the Air Staff, Sir Charles Portal, which was a kind of bureaucratic insurance in case the oil plan didn't work. It does not mean that Harris failed to bomb the oil plants or dragged his feet in any way. He was a military officer and he obeyed orders. His orders were to continue with 'area bombing' of cities and also to attack, among other things, oil plants, so he did. The 3,000 heavy bombers of US Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces dropped about 48,000 tons on oil plants. The 1,000 heavies of Harris's command dropped some 64,000 tons, about 30 per cent more -- the oil plan was an American idea in the first place, but Harris carried out most of it. [[User:Khamba Tendal|Khamba Tendal]] ([[User talk:Khamba Tendal|talk]]) 13:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:In some well-publicised cases of the USAAF bombing an oil target Harris' crews then bombed that same target the following night.  

:That same Ultra information that Harris was not privy to was informing the UKG what was, and what wasn't hurting the Nazi war effort, and if area bombing had been as ineffective as has since been claimed, Ultra would have revealed this, and the area bombing offensive would have been halted. It wasn't.<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/95.144.50.176|95.144.50.176]] ([[User talk:95.144.50.176#top|talk]]) 09:33, 13 September 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Another Turing ==

https://dailygalaxy.com/2018/09/x-y-z-polish-codebreakers-paved-way-for-alan-turing-to-decrypt-enigma-todays-planet-earth-report/ [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 14:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

==MkUltra==
The name MKUltra comes from Ultra, in reference, specifically, to it's extreme secretiveness.  I therefore object to Trekphiler's revision, /especially their off-hand dismissive comment in so performing.[[User:Slarty1|Slarty1]] ([[User talk:Slarty1|talk]]) 20:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
:You've missed the point of the page, which you evidently didn't read. MKUltra is a psywar project having nothing to do with crypto. As such, it has no relevance here. Coincidence doesn't get it (& I shouldn't even waste time answering this, actually, it's so clear).  [[User:Trekphiler|<span style="font-family: cursive; color: #1DACD6;">TREKphiler</span>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<sup style="font-family: cursive; color: #880085;">any time you're ready, Uhura</sup>]] 09:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
::  Wow dude!  I don't see it.  The argument might not b as strong as I'd like, but I think the argument could b made that the fact that MKUltra litterally got the ultra part of it's name from Ultra, is a notable link.  We might have to take this arg to the next level.[[User:Slarty1|Slarty1]] ([[User talk:Slarty1|talk]]) 21:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
:::If it were in a section on 'influence' that gave the context of 'this is how the project's name has been used since,' it might belong on this page.  But I think listing it among articles that have much more substantial ties is not warranted. The interest is more the other direction, Ultra appears to be more important to MkUltra than the other way around. --John ([[User:Jwy]]/[[User talk:Jwy|talk]]) 15:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
::::If there were more than coincidence in naming, I might agree. What's the history of the selection of the naming of the MKUltra program? Was it chosen as an "ultra secret" project? (Which is peripherally related, but no more.) Or was it a product of the name-selection process, like [[Igloo White]]? (That makes it obviously unrelated.) If you can't tell the difference between sigint & psywar, you really have no business adding the link in the first place.  [[User:Trekphiler|<span style="font-family: cursive; color: #1DACD6;">TREKphiler</span>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<sup style="font-family: cursive; color: #880085;">any time you're ready, Uhura</sup>]] 04:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

== 1962 public reference ==

In "Pearl Harbor: Warning and Decision" (Stanford University
Press, 1962, page 173) Roberta Wohlstetter wrote:

"In 1941 there were only four of them [US Army reproductions
of the Japanese PURPLE machine] in existence. The Army and
Navy each had one machine in Washington; one had been sent to
Cavite in the Philippines and was manned by Fleet Intelligence
officers from the 16th Naval District, and a fourth had been
sent to Great Britain in return for the keys and machines
necessary to decode German codes and ciphers."

This is clearly an early reference to Ultra, but I'm not sure
whether it counts as a public disclosure of any secrets; it
does not mention Enigma or Ultra by name, and by 1962 it could
not have been a secret that all of the WWII combatants were
trying to read the others' communications.
[[Special:Contributions/24.170.225.153|24.170.225.153]] ([[User talk:24.170.225.153|talk]]) 17:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

== Requested move 18 November 2023 ==
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved''' per consensus that there is no primary topic. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> ''[[User:BegbertBiggs|BegbertBiggs]]&nbsp;([[User talk:BegbertBiggs|talk]])'' 23:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
----


* [[:Ultra]] → {{no redirect|Ultra (cryptography)}}
* [[:Ultra (disambiguation)]] → {{no redirect|Ultra}}
– Long overdue non-[[WP:primary topic|primary topic]]. Past discussions include {{slink|Talk:Ultra/Archive_1#Rename}} (2006), {{slink|Talk:Ultra_(disambiguation)#Requested_move}} (2011 RM), and {{slink|Talk:Ultra/Archive 1#Why in the world is this the default "ultra" page?}} (2011). Pageviews (PT1) won out in the 2011 RM, with some handwaving about significance (PT2). But pageviews are not so conclusive these days: when compared to just the single topic of [[Ultra (Depeche Mode album)]], [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2023-10&pages=Ultra{{!}}Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) the results] are increasingly mixed, and when including other topics often referred to as simply "Ultra", there's [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2023-10&pages=Ultra{{!}}Ultra_Music_Festival{{!}}Ultras{{!}}Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album){{!}}Ultra_Series definitely no winner]. There was no previous attempt to ''demonstrate'' long-term significance; in fact the intelligence project may have it as a proper noun (searches like "Ultra began", "Ultra became" mostly show this subject in Scholar), though [[Apple Watch Ultra|tech]] [[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra|uses]] are popular in more recent news results, and the prefix just has so many other uses. (But again, pageviews are the thrust of the request—and they show this is not {{tq|more likely [sought] than all the other topics combined}}.) [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 21:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

:<small>Pinging active users from past discussions: {{ping|E-Kartoffel|Jwy|CWenger|JHunterJ|LtPowers|Glrx|P199|Andrewa|Fresheneesz|p=.}} [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 21:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support'''.  Page views, incoming links and search results all suggest that there is no primary topic for this term. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 23:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

*'''Support''', page views and the only "Ultra (... band)" under the disambiguation. '''<span style="color:Purple">dxneo</span>''' ([[User talk:dxneo|talk]]) 23:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Cryptography topic may narrowly have long-term significance, but page views are too mixed. Not conclusive enough for a primary topic. <span class="nowrap">–[[User:CWenger|CWenger]]</span> ([[User talk:CWenger|<span style="font-family:Webdings;"><big>^</big></span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/CWenger|<span style="font-family:Webdings;"><big>@</big></span>]]) 23:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. --[[User:TedColes|TedColes]] ([[User talk:TedColes|talk]]) 08:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Excellent and compelling analysis by nom. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 09:17, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
* [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Ultra WikiNav for Ultra] indicates that about ~10k of incoming views here last month, and a scattering to 71 outgoing destinations, which is quite a lot of apparent organic interest in this topic. The hatnote is still pretty high at #4, with 207 identified clickstreams (~2%). [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra%20(disambiguation) Mass views for disambiguation] indicates a vague picture like the links above. Since the plural is already split off, and we disambiguate other common words like [[mega]] or [[extreme]], we could give disambiguation a try here. Later we should check if the navigation outcomes have improved, after a few months time when the traffic patterns settle. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I don't think pageviews tell the whole story here, since "ultra" is a common prefix for which we (rightly) don't have an article. I suspect there's a decent chance that people looking it up are actually looking for a definition rather than any one encyclopedic topic.  I think the principle of least surprise points toward the dab page in this case.  [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 14:43, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Although [[WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary|Wikipedia is not a dictionary]], giving the title to [[Ultra (disambiguation)|the dab]] has the advantage of presenting a handy Wiktionary box at the top of the page. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 16:55, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support''', clearly not the primary topic. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 16:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
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