View source for Talk:Thing-Fish

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|action1date=16:13, 6 May 2012
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|currentstatus=FGAN
|topic=music
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{{WikiProject Albums}}
{{WikiProject Progressive Rock|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Frank Zappa|importance=high}}
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==Comment==
Please help resolve the spelling of David Ocker's (Oker?) name.  He is billed by both names on the ArtistDirect web site as playing the [[Synclavier]].  I assumed that was a typo and merged the entries.  Anyone have this album? -- [[User:Dave Cohoe|Dave C.]] 19:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:I'm going with 'Ocker', based on the pathetic 69 hits from a google for "david oker", and [http://www.leisureplanetmusic.com/composer/ocker/bio.htm this]. [[User:Flowerparty|Flower]][[User talk:Flowerparty|party]] 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that this page is in the 'albums of unknown importance' category. It is at times a challenging or even combative listen. If the album does not drive you insane, you will have a much stronger mind after listening to it a few times. Thing-Fish touches on [[Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male|Tuskegee]], and the cover of the album looks suspiciously like the picture in this article: [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0721-07.htm]. Larry Flynt contributed funds for production, and published several pages of photographs following the plot of the Thing-Fish album in his magazine. That's a landmark album! We could take this feature! Listen to the album a few times, surely thousands of pop culture references can be extracted from the script.

I think the cultural relevance section of this page is completely POV and is the authors attempt to rectify the content of the album with his own political views.  It is a fact as stated in many interviews with Frank Zappa that he believed AIDS was a race specific bio-weapon engineered by the American government to target black people.  In addition he saw both the homo-sexualisation of youth through the mass media, as well as the whole feminist movement as schemes by the government to reduce the population.  I believe that whole section should be deleted and started from scratch as the interview with Frank show that he was very serious about the claims he makes in this album, despite the fact that they are set in a humorous tone. This is in fact an album about the eugenics movement which dominates American society to this day.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:FOWL|FOWL]] ([[User talk:FOWL|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FOWL|contribs]]) 02:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
In fact, that's your opinion regarding what the album is about. FZ did genuinely suspect AIDS was developed in a lab for purposes of eliminating or minimizing 'undesirable tenants in the condominium o' life' but there is probably no mention of 'the Eugenics movement' which has long been deprecated in the US.

Additional POV aspects of this article: 'increasingly fascistic and feminist' adult Rhonda. "Fascistic" is a meaningful term which FZ did not use for Rhonda, and it doesn't appear to be supported by the supposed citation. The point of the Briefcase Boogie scene is no mystery really, FZ felt that feminists who went into that to be equal to corporate businessmen was absurd. So her way of retaliating to Harry was, among other things, to fuck her briefcase. Also note 'Warner Brothers' files in it. I wouldn't read that much into this, albeit FZ stated more than once he was a '50's kinda guy' and more traditional which is HOWEVER belied by the fact of his treating woman in this band as equals.J Civil 23:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
: Obviously you are remembering the interviews incorrectly, since Frank, being a rock star, could not possibly ever have believed anything that was stupid. [[User:Richard K. Carson|Richard K. Carson]] ([[User talk:Richard K. Carson|talk]]) 03:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:: Obviously, you've never heard [[Hed PE]]'s ''[[New World Orphans]]'', or [[Megadeth]]'s ''[[Endgame (Megadeth album)|Endgame]]'' (named for the [[Alex Jones (radio host)|Alex Jones]] film). Rock stars do, in fact, believe stupid things. Not saying that Zappa did, but still. --[[User:Wisdomtenacityfocus|WTF]] ([[User talk:Wisdomtenacityfocus|talk]]) 03:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

==Plot==
The "plot" section should not be told "in universe"...it needs to be rewritten as if it is describing a work of fiction. [[User:PurpleChez|PurpleChez]] ([[User talk:PurpleChez|talk]]) 02:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not true that the Thing-Fish/Mammy Nun appearance was caused by the Galoot Cologne. There are 3 distinct substances: 1) chemical made by the prince 2) potatoes 3) cologne (and the mystery resease may be a 4th). The Mammy Nun appearance is caused by mixing 1 & 2. The 1/2 mixture was a test - the 1/3 mixture was used to kill off the fagnits. The Galoot brand of cologne is ostensibly popular on the disco scene. [[User:Redkrovvy|Redkrovvy]] ([[User talk:Redkrovvy|talk]]) 05:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

== Opera ==
I thought FZ referred to this one as an opera. Am I misremembering? [[User:Varlaam|Varlaam]] ([[User talk:Varlaam|talk]]) 20:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
* Yes. --[[User:Wisdomtenacityfocus|WTF]] ([[User talk:Wisdomtenacityfocus|talk]]) 03:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

{{Talk:Thing-Fish/GA1}}

== John Cale rating ==
Don't know if this is even relevant, but may be useful for someone.<ref>http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/john-cale-my-life-in-music-20963</ref>  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Patacón|Patacón]] ([[User talk:Patacón|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Patacón|contribs]]) 18:11, 29 September 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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== Category ==
{{atop|User {{checkuser|ApexUnderground}} is a sock of {{checkuser|Inowen}}. - [[User:DVdm|DVdm]] ([[User talk:DVdm|talk]]) 09:18, 2 July 2019 (UTC)}}
I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thing-Fish&curid=1627951&diff=903063470&oldid=903050110 removed] the category ''Homophobia in fiction'' because it is unsourced, and it has a very ambiguous tone. It is not clear whether the album is homophobic, ''against'' homophobia, or just ''about'' homophobia, and of course the same goes for the author. The album clearly has homosexuality as one of its (many) themes, but nothing is said about homo''phobia''. Adding the category would be [[wp:original research]]. - [[User:DVdm|DVdm]] ([[User talk:DVdm|talk]]) 09:14, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

:The ''homophobia in fiction'' category would specifically refer to the song "He's So Gay," but there is no article yet for that song, so the category would go here. -[[User:ApexUnderground|ApexUnderground]] ([[User talk:ApexUnderground|talk]]) 18:53, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
::But there is no way to know whether the song is homophobic, ''against'' homophobia, or just ''about'' homophobia. Trying to stick categories to things or people can be problematic. To Zappa it does not work. - [[User:DVdm|DVdm]] ([[User talk:DVdm|talk]]) 20:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
:::This is clearly a case where the commentary is anti-Gay, or are you saying that there must be a music reviewer or other public comment who says specifically that the song is anti-Gay? The song repeatedly connects the Gay lifestyle to BDSM and paraphilia, and has a mocking tone toward Gays. The idea that these political categories are political labels that are often misused doesn't mean we should not put [[anti-Semitism|appropriate categories]] on [[Hitler|some people]]. -[[User:ApexUnderground|ApexUnderground]] ([[User talk:ApexUnderground|talk]]) 20:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
:::: With Zappa, one ''never'' knows what is serious and what is not, or what is mockery, satire, cynicism or irony. The song might be anti-gay, or anti-anti-gay, or anti-pretend-gay, or anti-pretend-anti-gay... or anti-whatever. And the album might be anti-something-different. And the author might be anti-yet-something-different. You might think this way. Someone else might think another way. That's why Wikipedia needs reliable sources. And it certainly is why sticking labels to Zappa is hard. If not impossible. - [[User:DVdm|DVdm]] ([[User talk:DVdm|talk]]) 08:41, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
:::::Well, I agree that categories are not always perfect or clear. I think the song might not belong in ''Category:Homophobia'', but it is certainly ''anti-Gay'''. I don't think they are the same thing,  but the categories on Wikipedia are connected as if they are the same thing. Anti-Gay is not the exact same thing as homophobia, and these labels are completely wrong on Wikipedia.-[[User:ApexUnderground|ApexUnderground]] ([[User talk:ApexUnderground|talk]]) 21:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
:::::: [[wp:NOCONSENSUS|Our mileages may vary.]] You think it's anti-gay. I think it's anti-something-different. - [[User:DVdm|DVdm]] ([[User talk:DVdm|talk]]) 07:23, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
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