View source for Talk:The Mary Tyler Moore Show

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== Phyllis identified as landlady ==

In season 2, episode 19, after Phyllis knows the amount of Rhoda's rent to the penny, the following dialogue takes place:

Rhoda: How do you know what my rent is?<br>
Phyllis: It was just a wild guess.<br>
Rhoda: No, no, Phyll. No, no. 90 bucks might be a wild guess. $87.50 is definitely not a guess. How'd you find out? Only people know what I'm paying are L&P Management and me.<br>
Mary: You know something? I don't think there is an L&P Management. Every time I call up to get something fixed, I get this dumb recording.<br>
Rhoda: Oh, yeah. That dull guy saying, "L&P Management. When you hear the tone, you will have 15 seconds to state your problem." Beep. I don't have any problem I can state in 15 seconds.<br>
Phyllis: I can well image.<br>
Mary: Well, it doesn't make any difference. They never call you back, so you wind up fixing whatever it is yourself.<br>
Rhoda: Right.<br>
Mary: You know something? That voice has always reminded me of somebody. You know who it sounds like, Phyllis? It sounds exactly like Lars.<br>
Phyllis: No, it doesn't.<br>
Mary: Yes, it does. Phyllis, it sounds exactly like your husband.<br>
Phyllis: No, it doesn't.<br>
Rhoda: Phyllis. Phyllis, does the "L" in L&P Management stand for Lars?<br>
Mary: And the "P" for Phyllis?<br>
Rhoda: You manage the building?<br>
Phyllis: Well, it saves a little on the rent.<br>

In season 1, epoisode 1 of ''Phyllis'', we learn that Phyllis is left penniless, after the death of Lars. No mention is made of her owning any real property.

Taken together, it is clear that Phyllis is not a landlady. Based on this, I changed descriptions of Phyllis in the article to say that she is an on-site property manager and not a landlady. I put in the edit summary: "Phyllis and Lars had a company that managed the property, but they did not own the building."

My edit was reverted by [[User:AldezD|AldezD]] who said in the edit summary: "Unsourced "Phyllis and Lars had a company that managed the property, but they did not own it." Also, it's a plot **summary**. The character owning or being a property manager of the house has nothing to do with any plot. It's just a simple description of her character." Rather than simply change it back and start an edit war, I'm posting here.

Phyllis not being a landlady is easily sourced from season 2, episode 19. Phyllis being a landlady is not sourced anywhere, because it is false.

Whether it is a plot ''summary'' or anything else, it is clearly incorrect within this fictional universe to identify Phyllis as a landlord. Therefore, if it has nothing to do with the plot, it would be better to simply delete that element of the character description. How could saying something clearly incorrect be better than saying nothing at all?

Finally, I disgree with AldezD's contention that Phyllis's status as landlady or property manager has nothing to do with the plot. We see Phyllis's deceptive nature as she hid from her friends the role she played in L&P Management. Further, within this fictional universe, a key element in the launch of the ''Phyllis'' spin-off is that she was penniless after Lars died, which would likely be untrue, if she owned the building (unless there were debts).

Unless there's consensus for the ''satus quo'' or for completely dropping this element of the description of the character, I intend to restore the changes I made. [[User:Taxman1913|Taxman1913]] ([[User talk:Taxman1913|talk]]) 03:46, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
:{{reply to|Taxman1913}} It's a joke written into the script of one episode of a 50-year old television show. Quibbling over whether she's a landlady or referring to her with an archaic, unconventional "on-site property manager" title is ridiculous. Phyllis's character is not portrayed as a building manager/landlady/superintendent/property manager, and it is not her role within the "fictional universe" of ''The Mary Tyler Moore Show''. She is not equivalent to Schneider on ''[[One Day at a Time (1975 TV series)|One Day at a Time]]'', who was the superintendent. 
:Wikipedia is not the site for all fandom wackiness of "THIS WAS SAID IN FIFTEEN LINES OF ONE EPISODE OF A SEVEN-SEASON, 50-YEAR OLD TELEVISION SHOW SO IT IS GOSPEL." '''It's a television show.''' [[WP:PLOT|Wikipedia is meant to be a summary of plots and characters]]. If you want to get into the granularity of episode-specific '''jokes''' that were never mentioned outside of a single episode, [https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-start-your-own-wiki/ start your own wiki]. 
:Your edit was unsourced. Regarding your comment in this section, "Phyllis not being a landlady is easily sourced from season 2, episode 19."—You have been an editor here for seven years. You should be familiar by now with [[Template:Cite episode]]. Cheers. [[User:AldezD|AldezD]] ([[User talk:AldezD|talk]]) 13:04, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
::{{reply to|AldezD}} If you see quibbling over this as ridiculous, why do you engage in it? Why do you do so with so much hostility using CAPS and '''boldface type'''? Why wouldn't you just say that the references to Phyllis being a landlady should be deleted, since they are unsourced? [[User:Taxman1913|Taxman1913]] ([[User talk:Taxman1913|talk]]) 23:59, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
:::{{reply to|Taxman1913}} I responded to you calling me out in a 500+ word essay arguing for inclusion that "it is clearly incorrect within this fictional universe to identify Phyllis as a landlord" and that "unless there's consensus for the ''satus quo'' or for completely dropping this element of the description of the character, [you] intend to restore the changes [you] made". I referenced [[WP:PLOT]] as the reason not to distinguish a fictional character as "on-site property manager" since it is not the character's primary role. 
:::{{Diff|The Mary Tyler Moore Show|1033972298|1033464927|The edits you made 16 July 2021|diffonly=yes}} removed the reference to her as a landlady. You may also choose to remove the [[:Category:Fictional landlords]] tag from the [[Phyllis Lindstrom]] article. {{Diff|The Mary Tyler Moore Show|1033972070|1033972017|Just be sure to use spell-check before you click "Publish changes".|diffonly=yes}} Have a great day. [[User:AldezD|AldezD]] ([[User talk:AldezD|talk]]) 15:25, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
::::{{reply to|AldezD}} Thanks for the heads up. Have a great day. [[User:Taxman1913|Taxman1913]] ([[User talk:Taxman1913|talk]]) 17:12, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
::::{{reply to|AldezD}} To be clear, my goal was to improve this article, not to call you out. I followed [[WP:QUO]] by opening up a discussion on the Talk page. You failed to follow [[WP:QUO]] when you reverted my good faith edit. [[User:Taxman1913|Taxman1913]] ([[User talk:Taxman1913|talk]]) 17:20, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{reply to|Taxman1913}}Believe whatever you need to in order to understand why I undid your edit and to justify your actions. Just be sure to spell it properly. Enjoy. [[User:AldezD|AldezD]] ([[User talk:AldezD|talk]]) 18:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::@AldezD He's right, and you're wrong. [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:B23E:33EE:D1AE:4997:10CB:7119|2603:7000:B23E:33EE:D1AE:4997:10CB:7119]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:B23E:33EE:D1AE:4997:10CB:7119|talk]]) 09:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

:I wasn't aware of this debate when I reverted a change. However, I have sources (right or wrong) explicitly calling her a landlady. The fact that ''Phyllis'' states she was left penniless after the death of her husband does not rule this out. Who knows? They may have had such large debts that Phyliss was forced to sell the building. Any speculation would be [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 12:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

== Entertainment Weekly link no longer working ==

Citation 14, second greatest moment in TV history. I tried finding a working link, but the closest I could find is an article with a 1970s subset of the 100 greatest moments list. I'm trying to put it here in this comment, but I'm having trouble doing it from my phone, I'll try from a computer later. [[User:Alisonjo2786|alisonjo2786]] ([[User talk:Alisonjo2786|talk]]) 20:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Pfft frustrating -- if you Google the following, you'll see the article I mean:
Entertainment Weekly The 100 Greatest Moments In Television: 1970s [[User:Alisonjo2786|alisonjo2786]] ([[User talk:Alisonjo2786|talk]]) 20:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I found it elsewhere and replaced the footnote. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 20:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Shoot sorry we probably overlapped, me too -- I hope it worked out ok.  [[User:Alisonjo2786|alisonjo2786]] ([[User talk:Alisonjo2786|talk]]) 20:52, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it worked out -- there were two uses of that citation, I think they're both good now, except ideally they'd be the same citation, reused. (I couldn't figure out how to do that while editing from my phone.) [[User:Alisonjo2786|alisonjo2786]] ([[User talk:Alisonjo2786|talk]]) 20:54, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

== John Amos as Gordon "Gordy" Howard ==

Why is there no mention here of the character Gordy?  He was a black character played by John Amos, who later went on to the show "Good Times." [[Special:Contributions/162.201.218.238|162.201.218.238]] ([[User talk:162.201.218.238|talk]]) 00:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
:Possibly only because nobody has thought to add a mention of Gordy or worked out a context in which to mention him without giving him undue weight. Or perhaps there isn't much to say about him{{emdash}}how much was his character developed? Did the role receive much coverage in [[WP:reliable sources|reliable sources]]? For what it's worth, it seems Gordy appeared in only 14 episodes{{emdash}}one out of every 12 that were broadcast; I'm not sure how much screen time he had in those; and I don't know whether he had the spotlight in any of those episodes. Bess Lindstrom and Marie Slaughter, who were in fewer episodes than Gordy, ''are'' mentioned in the article, but not in their own right, only alluded to in the course of elaborating on two major characters (the mother of one, the husband of the other). If you can think of a way to include Gordy in the article that's proportionate to his role and what is known about him, go for it!  [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 00:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

== Which store behind the hat toss ==

Editors have been disagreeing over whether MTM's hat toss during the opening credits occurred in front of Donaldson's or Dayton's department store. There are sources to support each, such as [https://www.twincities.com/2020/01/10/tina-fey-and-oprah-winfrey-in-town-for-st-paul-event-toss-their-hats-next-to-minneapolis-mary-tyler-moore-statue/ this for Dayton's] and [https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/01/25/mary-tyler-moore-in-minneapolis this for Donaldson's]. Can we reach a solid conclusion or should we omit mention of the store? [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 22:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)