View source for Talk:Temporomandibular joint dysfunction

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{{backwardscopy|url=http://www.drloy.com/tmj.htm|title=Temporomandibular Joint Disorder|date=date unknown|comments=The website clearly developed its content based on Wikipedia's. For instance, we can see where the lead was altered earlier that year [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=next&oldid=106507832 here], in a way that is mirrored by that external site. We see another change [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=next&oldid=106517869 by the same IP] which is similar to content in the external site. "Oftentimes" became "often" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&action=historysubmit&diff=113415213&oldid=113189306 here], when a bot gets at it. Their article was clearly created at some point after that. [[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] <sup>[[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]]</sup> 18:59, 2 December 2010 (UTC)}}

== Why ==
Why the "See also: Fibromyalgia"?  Can the resident expert/whoever added that (if available) please explain the relation I'm not seeing, and add that to the article? MCOTWnom

all very interesting, but why the first person?

Also, a definition of the disorder would be helpful. --AxelBoldt----
To my knowledge this is a "syndrome" and therefore the definitions consists of symptoms...
but a list of symptoms is also missing. RoseParks

The article on the Temporomandibular joint mentions the "disc" many times, and describes its displacement.  The disc is not mentioned ONCE in this article.  Something isn't right there. --[[User:Tedtoal|Tedtoal]] ([[User talk:Tedtoal|talk]]) 04:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)--

definitely not a disease...TMJ is most often caused by chronic tooth-grinding or jaw clenching.  It is characterized by chronic headaches and and can lead to a misalignment of the jaw. [[User:JHK|JHK]]

But it is a syndrome and at times a disabling syndrome. And, there is no proof that it comes from tooth-grinding(bruxism) - that I know of. Do you have a reputable source for such a cause? More interesting is that the overwhelming majority of diagnosed patients are female. RoseParks 

And what is a temporomandibular joint anyway? The joint that attaches the jaw to the rest of the head? -- [[User:Paul Drye|Paul Drye]]

:No fixed definition, but I've added a new definition section to show some more notable ones that have been offered. Fibromyalgia sometimes reported to be associated with TMD. New "normal anatomy section should help a lot with explaining what exactly the disc is, what the joint is etc etc. Any other explanations needed for this section let me know here and I'' try and put them in. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

==Issue of Subluxation vs TMJD==
Recent edit adde to list of symptoms ''"Popping or clicking when the jaws are opened"'' and ''"Popping or clicking when attempting to chew"''.
* Are these not better categorised as features of TMJ [[subluxation]] ?
* Whilst subluxation may induce a "sprain" at the joint causing inflammation and hence an episode of TMJD, is not subluxation possible without having TMJD discomfort ?
* Should there be a separate article on TMJ subluxation, or is it better included in this article given that the consequence (TMJD) and its management are all discussed here ?
[[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 14:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

:I thought subluxation was considered a type of TemporoMandibular Joint Disorders, and would thus be appropriate to mention in this article (though it still having its own in-depth article). - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 01:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not a specialist but I would like to see subluxation in this page. And if it's really a detailed subject it could be a separate page also. At least there must be some sentences in this article about subluxation and this article must be linked from subluxation article. [[User:iyiguncevik|Iyigun Cevik]] 12:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This is where "TMD" is an annoying term (pain dysfunction syndrome is much more accurate and less confusing). Are we talking about ''temporomandibular disorders'' generally (if so then yes, TMJ subluxation is a disorder that affects the TMJ), or are we talking about ''temporomandibular disorders'' as in the topic of this page, that syndrome created by a lumping together of different disorders that affect the TMJ and that have a similar set of signs and symptoms, then arguably no, unless TMJ subluxation causes (i) pain (ii) limitation of mandibular movement and/or (iii) joint noises. 
I think the problem with TMJ subluxation is that the joint is too loose and the condyle pops out of the articular fossa, although it stays within its capsule. What the difference between subluxation and TMJ dislocation is I am not 100% sure- maybe something to do with subluxation easily returning and dislocation not, or maybe something to do with the capsule. Subluxation also sounds like it is managed differently, with elastic IMF rather than with all these TMD therapies. I can't find any good source about TMJ subluxation, and I am not sure that it should be included on this page if the signs and symptoms do not fit with the 3 classic TMD ones above. It might be better discussed on the [[dislocation of jaw]] or even [[hypermobility]] pages... [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 17:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

:After further reading, I am not convinced that the term "TMJ subluxation" is in common use by mainstream medical sources. It might be a concept proposed as part of [[chiropractic medicine]], but I would not include it with TMD mainly for the reasons above. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 11:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

== Stub? ==

Does this article count as a stub?

Thank you for your question.  It does not qualify as a "stub" under the present wiki-definition.  Therefore I have removed the stub category from the article. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 16:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

==Arthrocentesis==

I am not terribly offended, but I feel the need to express this to you.  When it comes to facts about specialized fields, I understand that some knowledge taken for granted by the professionals may sound completely foreign to the general public.  Since you are unaware of arthrocentesis, I am assuming you do not have close ties to the dental profession.  If you have seen my user page, you would note that my main objective here is in the dental field, and I guess I take for granted that flushing out the TMJ as one avenue of treatment just makes sense.  Nonetheless, I feel it would have been [[Wikipedia:Etiquette|considerate]] to keep a "citation needed" tag to the sentence so that us dental-minded wikipedians would have noted that there was a request for a reference for the information.  Otherwise, it would be more difficult to notice that the information was missing from the article, and thus more difficult to add a reference to that specific piece of information.  Again, I realize you may not know much about the dental profession, but it may be easier next time there is info you want verified to leave a message on a talk page of someone who is a dentist.  Thanks. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::Your assumptions are all wrong.  Of course I am "aware of arthrocentesis".  Your mention of it in the article lacked context, and still does, and will have to be fixed.  I hope, since you added it, you will make the time to place your addition into context.  As to sources, you will see I was held to provide a source on something pretty basic by one who represents himself as being a dentist. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=52064002&oldid=52045411]], and I promptly complied. It's really not a problem to add sources, and you shouldn't feel insulted when you are held to providing one, particularly on a topic with as many contradictions and contraindications as this one.  [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand, I am saying that next time using the "citation needed" tag may be more beneficial for the article since the correct information can be included in the article while at the same time bring up the need for a citation.  Otherwise, the information may be lost for a while until someone at a later date realizes the omission. This is even a more logical thing to do especially since you say that you ARE "aware of arthrocentesis"--- deleting something ''you know to be true'' only because there is no citation would be better handled by just adding a tag saying a citation is warranted.  Further, I interpret [[user:Davidruben|Davidruben]]'s talk page to say he is a physician, NOT a dentist.  And for the record, I did not originally add the statement [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=next&oldid=53209393 as you can see here]. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 03:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::I think you misunderstand.  I deleted it because it was entered both without source and without context.  It survives only because you have added a source.  Without either source or context the material is misleading/confusing to the reader, at best.  It still is misleading, but the reader now has some protection in that they can view the source and assess its credibility.  Context is still necessary in the article, and since you are a proponent of leaving it in, I hope you will make the time to add the context, and including opposing treatment philosophies. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 03:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am disappointed that it appears you are hostile to any effort I make to improve the article.  I will not feel it necessary to defend my actions to you, even after you say [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=54404140&oldid=54379565 arthrocentesis makes no sense] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=54415623&oldid=54411001 the treatment is "bizarre"] yet later claim that you were actually [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADozenist&diff=54455767&oldid=51039935 "aware of arthrocentesis"] and the real reason you deleted pertinent information you knew to be correct was that there was no citation and no context.  Well, I have looked at that section of the article and it seems to have perfect context to me since it is one form of treatment.  And we all know that different treatments are necessary since most disorders have different causes.  Also, if you are an oral and maxillofacial surgeon that treats tmd, I am confused why you would dismiss a less obtrusive treatment than most surgical treatments for tmd, but as I said I will no longer attempt to defend my actions to you since you appear to dismiss them and belittle them. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::The solution, of course, is to reposition the mandible to its normal position using ''non-invasive technique (no surgery)'', and to correct the occlusal surfaces of the teeth, such that the mandible is guided back the correct position when the teeth occlude, as nature intended.  Arthrocentesis is obviously no more a "solution" for tmjd, than it would be for a dislocated shoulder.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 15:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because you do not understand the different etiologic factors that may cause tmd, the health community does not have to change the way it treats tmd.  Arthrocentesis treats tmd when certain factors cause tmd.  Furthermore, guiding the mandible back to the correct position ''will not treat tmd'' when certain factors are involved.  All this makes sense since frequently tmd is more complicated than a dislocated shoulder and also because the tmj functions differently than the shoulder joint.  If you are really interested in learning, then just ask, but I have no incentive to help you if you criticize and complain about something you do not understand. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 19:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::There you go, making groundless assumptions and insults again. The point is to improve the article, and where you are the propronent of keeping something in, it is only fair to expect you to add the context, so as not to mislead/confuse the reader.  You open yourself up to insults worse than the one's you are making. Of course, it's because I know the factors that "may cause tmjd" that I proposed that you place "context" into the article relative to your addition.  Since you are in agreement that "context" is ''important'', you evidence you understood why I deleted your "uncited" reference to it.   Rather than making statements that you possess knowledge/expertise, you could you could place what you believe to be "context" into the article, particularly since you have now publicly acknowledged that you understand the significance of "context".  You do not disagree that "arthrocentesis is no more a cure for tmjd, than it would be for a dislocated shoulder.  Since you are the one keeping a reference to arthrocentesis in this article, it seems only reasonable that you should make the time for adding the context that would make it other than misleading and confusing for the reader.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 15:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I point to what I have already said earlier: "Well, I have looked at that section of the article and it seems to have perfect context to me since it is one form of treatment."  And I cannot understand your sentence, but, in order for clarity, arthrocentesis can "cure" tmd because tmd is nothing like a dislocated shoulder. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 15:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::Your statement that "arthrocentesis can cure tmjd" would never survive in the article.  Why place falsehood on the talk page? If you want to defend arthrocentesis as "a cure", make your allegation in the article, so I can delete it is as being unsourced. (It is one thing to claim arthrocentesis will alleviate symptoms, and to loosely associate it's use with first "manipulating the jaw", another to claim arthrocentesis is a "cure for tmjd".) Your statement that "tmjd is nothing like a dislocated shoulder" is equally ridiculous - the majority of cases are best understood by the general public when comparing tmjd to a dislocated shoulder, in that the solution is to ''reposition the mandible to its normal position using non-invasive technique'', followed by the additional step of correcting the occlusal surfaces of the teeth, such that the mandible is guided back to the correct position when the teeth occlude, as nature intended. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 16:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Ok, you again demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about.  I have no "allegations" and everything I am saying is supported by the medical/dental community.  The general public may compare tmd to a dislocated shoulder, but they are in fact nothing alike.  You would know all this if you were an expert in the field. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 00:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You continue to make false assumptions and mindless insults.   You do not put arthrocentesis into the article as a "cure for TMJD" because you know I would delete it, as being unsourced/unsourcable, in that it is not true - and you know it, even as a "24 year old dental student".  The comparison to a dislocated shoulder is entirely apt, for reasons I have stated, and you have not countered. You would know all this if you were an expert in the field.  You evidence worse than ignorance. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 00:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree totally with Pat8722. Successful treatment of TMD requires the treating of it's causitive factors and not it's symptoms. Connective tissue scarring, thinning, perforations and bone spicules of the joint spaces do not develop without a functional pathology elsewhere. Patients with normal occlusion and posture do not develop arthritic changes in the TMJs. Causitive factors of TMD include breating issues as a young child leading to imporper tongue position to accomodate mouth breathing, improper restorative dentistry, tooth loss or breakdown, some orthodontic care, and ascending postural issues that may arise from trauma or injury of the vertebral column (MVAs). Since successful treatment of TMD requires a multidisiplinary approach a unilateral surgical approach will ulitmately fail. Joint damage will resolve without an invasive surgery once the balanced physiologic function is returned to the system with proper orthotic care of the patient's occlusion and cervical alignment of the vertebral colunm with the skull. Arthrocentesis is a tool used by oral surgeons who are faced with helping the patient and who's only tool is a scaple. This does not speak to an unprofessionalism of the Oral Surgeons, but to the general inability of the general dental profession to diagnose and treat TMD.[[User:Dr. Curtis Westersund|Dr. Curtis Westersund]] 15:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that the craniomandibular articulation is the most complex in the body, because it not only includes a pair of diarthrodial joints but the occlusion of the dentition.  This is an immensely difficult area to study.  A lot of experts conclude at the moment that TMJDS may not be a distinct clinical entity because of the presence of crepitus and other indicators of joint pathology in a significant proportion of the population who don't complain of pain.  Crepitus and deviation really indicators of a disease?  Is there any loss of function with crepitus and/or deviation?  I wouldn't think so. Why do some people develop pain and others not?  A central and unsatisfactorily answered question in my opinion.  In fact, there is very little evidence (in the line of interventional studies) supporting the influence of the occlusion on the TMJs, despite its obvious (to me anyway) role.  Science is not always intuitive, however and a sound theory is not always sound science.  Significantly, there is little evidence supporting the use of occlusal splint therapy (hard or soft) in the treatment of myofascial pain and TMJDS, but these are well known and well accepted treatment modalities.

With respect to arthrocentesis, two of the consultant oral surgeons in my training hospital used to tell us anectdotes of TMJ's that were 'loosened' with '''arthroscopy''' alone.  A relief of symptoms was experienced by the patient.  I would deem this a success because this treatment achieved the dual goals of pain relief and restoration of function.This procedure was reserved for patients for which every other suspected pathology and treatment had been explored.  But we deal with evidence not anectdotes.  I just use this as an example to shed light on the fact that there is no such thing as NPOV because there is so little evidence to support one thing over another, as far as I am aware.  So good luck writing an article! [[User:Dr-G|Dr-G - Illigetimi nil carborundum est.]] 02:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

With regards to posture, I would actually be interested in evidence related to postural influence on TMD.  I only ask because I know very little of the TMJ myself and I have heard mention of this before.  My only problem with this theory is that the mandible is related to only the skull and the hyoid bone and no other osseous structures.  I am aware that soft tissue can influence mandibular positioning, but only when the mandible is at rest, or in it's postural position.  I fail to see how extraoral soft tissue can influence a solid MIP.  If you can direct me to scholarly artcles or texts, I would much appreciate it, as I have an (small) interest in cranio-sacral and alternative therapies in dentistry and also in mainstream neuromuscular dentistry, which did not form a large part of my undergraduate curriculum.  (I went to Japan and experienced an oral medicine pain management clinic and they showed us some interesting results using acupuncture and other traditional doctrines in the management of myofascial and psychogenic pain.) [[User:Dr-G|Dr-G - Illigetimi nil carborundum est.]] 02:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

==comment by David Ruben==

:re ''"I was held to provide a source on something pretty basic by one who represents himself as being a dentist"'' - Thanks for assuming good faith. I have never represented myself as a dentist, nor should it matter whether I was or was not ([[WP:AGF]]). My user page clearly indicates I am just a humble General Practitioner. In part, given the lack of availability of [[NHS]] dentists in the UK, GPs are often the first point of call for patients with dental problems. Whilst we have no specialised knowledge and certainly do not have any dental equipment, we can provide analgesia and/or antibiotics whilst patients wait to see their dentists (else just strong instruction to see their dentists and not assume that we nice GPs, without "nasty" dental drills/injections but no dental training whatsoever, can help them).
:TMJD is something that not infrequently turns up (perhaps maximum of half-dozen cases each year), often after the patient has already seen their own dentist, been examined & X-rayed and informed that their teeth and gums are fine. So I am quite used to prescribing low-dose pain-modifying tricyclic antidepressants (Amitriptyline or Nortriptyline) for this, which often (?approx a third-half) seems to be sufficient to help settle the pain either completely or to such an extent that specialist referral is not desired. Of the remainder, I very readily refer to maxillo-facial surgeons (I guess about 25% of referees find their problem resolves in the 2-3 months it often takes to get an appointment). So I guess (I admit without any hard evidence) that most cases of TMJD in the UK initially present to GPs.

:::I assumed you were a dentist, both in that you created the article and because I didn't think anyone but a dentist would have deleted technical content on the basis of alleged personal experience, i.e. "backache is not a  symptom '''''"I"''''' would normally associated with TMJD." Those with extensive knowledge in the field find it difficult to believe "backache" is not a known symptom to any medical professional who treats either tmjd or backache, or even headache, for that matter.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 15:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:To be fair, Dentists in the UK unfortunately have only a limited formulary of drugs they are allowed to prescribe from, and tricyclics are not included given that such use is off-label. Indeed from ibuprofen or paracetamol their next option is Dihydrocodeine 30mg (i.e. no in-between narcotic of codeine, nor the stronger NSAID of Diclofenac).
:Whilst I agree TMJ often is not presented as localised pain over the joint, but often difuse non-localised pain over side of head, headaches, dental pain or earache, I had never previously encountered a case presenting to myself or any of my immediate colleagues as being of backache. Maybe we GPS are overlooking the possibility of this differential ?  So, as a non-specialist, this had not seemed ''"something pretty basic"''. Still that is one of the benefits of wikis in the process of creating good user-friendly articles - non-experts can highlight what to them seems unclear, not obvious or needing clarification :-)
:Some points therefore that those with particular knowledge in this field might like to consider adding to the article:
:* How common is TMJ in the population ?
:* What is typical (untreated) prognosis - i.e. how many will spontaneously settle over 1, 6, 12 months, or ever ?
:* How often are tricyclics antidepressants, used as pain-modifiers, alone sufficient ?
:* Of the sub-set of cases seen by maxilo-facial surgeons, what percentage are managed with conservative means and how many by surgical intervention ?
:* Finally ''"search for inciting para-functional jaw habits"'' may be comprehensible for specialists, but baffles me (the corresponding article reads like a dental/medical textbook) - can it be reworded for the rest of us ?  Thanks [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 23:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank Dr. Ruben for his contribution.  There is no need for intellectual snobbery here.  We need as much help as can be got on these articles.  I'm sure Dr. Ruben has more experience treating TMJD than other contributers to this article.  As far as associated symptoms of backache, yes patients may have associated symptoms of backache and headache, but there is very little or no evidence to suggest a link at this time.  Wide ranging musculoskeletal problems are symptoms of stress, and therefore may not be biomechanically or immunologically related.  This is why Dr. Ruben has had success with using low dose antidepressants for treatment of pain (this is a well-studied and oft-used treatment modality for psychogenic facial pain).  Therefore, no-one is wrong here.  I think you must learn to accept that there may be other points of view than your own pat8722, and that this disease is woefully understudied and poorly understood by medical science!  No single point of view is greater than another in this, and my experience is that both specialists and GDPs use their clinical intuition to do something that they either think will work or that they have experienced working in other patients.  See my above comments re: arthrocentesis for further expansion on this idea.  I think that citation is important here, but understand and expect to find that in this field contradiction exists even in the literature and so all points must be accommodated equally, if they have a citation.
With regard to your questions Dr. Ruben, MedLine.  Sorry I'm just too lazy to dig for articles that possibly may not exist or are severely outdated.  This area as I say is woefully understudied particularly in the areas that you point out.  Prevalence in the population depends on your definition of TMJDS (whether pain is a defining characteristic or not).  Tricyclics - I had never heard of them being used for TMJD/S but it seems pharmacologically sound.  However, as far as I am aware, low doses do not produce anxiolytic and antidepressant effects, which may also be beneficial in the treatment of TMJD/S particularly in light of the contribution of stress.  I'm sure some of these questions may be answerable with studies.  I'll have a look.
Parafunctional habits refer to bruxism (grinding) which tends to be an unconscious action which engages the [[mastication|masticatory system]] to produce habits that may cause damage to teeth, TMJ and muscles of mastication because of development of excessive forces, repetitive strain and oxygen deficit through overuse and engorgement of muscles.  Read that masticatory system article, particularly the piece (which I will rewrite when I dig out my old notes) on mastication motor programme.  It explains the '''massive''' central contribution to this subset of diseases and why some dentists believe that some myofascial and TMJD treatment lies outside the realm of dentistry, and should belong to neurologists, psychiatrists and psychologists.  What is not in dispute is that at the very least, it is a multidisciplinary approach that is required.  [[User:Dr-G|Dr-G - Illigetimi nil carborundum est.]] 12:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

==A. Richard, D. D. S.==

Twice now, [[Jersyko]] has reverted my edits of sourced material. The information I have added to the article is undisputedlytrue.  "TMJ Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis, A. Richard, D. D. S. Goldman Virginia McCullough" is a reliable source for the information that meets all Wiki citation criteria, and was duly cited.  Unless you have a source to counter my source, please do not delete this material, as to do so is [[Wikipedia:Vandalism]].[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 19:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
::How dare you call my edits vandalism.  The source violates [[WP:V]], which calls for [[WP:RS|reliable sources]].  The source is not reliable becuase it's not peer-reviewed, unless you consider the author's secretary (who is one of the only "sources" cited in the article) to be part of the peer-review process. - &middot; [[User:Jersyko|<span style="color:#013220;">j&middot;e&middot;r&middot;s&middot;y&middot;k&middot;o</span>]] [[User talk:Jersyko|<i style="color:#465945; font-size:x-small;">talk</i>]] &middot; 19:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"TMJ Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis, A. Richard, D. D. S. Goldman Virginia McCullough" meets all wikipedia sourcing criteria.  [[Wikipedia: sources]] at "What sources to cite"  merely says "PREFER... peer-reviewed English-language sources.", not that every published source must be peer-reviewed (the VAST majority of sources, cited in wikipedia or otherwise, are NOT peer-reviewed).  As it is undisputable that "backache" is one of the symptoms of TMJD, and as you have not cited a source to dispute it, the most you could reasonably want to do is to add a tag of "source needed", but even that is not justified under the wikipedia rules, as the present source is all that is needed.  Also, as you removed the source for "stiffness in the back and shoulders", but not the symptom, what was your source for leaving that one, only, in?  [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 13:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

==Edit war regarding symptoms==
I've recently seem to have been part of an revert-war over the symptoms of TMJD so its time to try and discuss how best to structure this section. I've listed the individual aspects of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=65415976&oldid=65386269 this version change] so that discussion may follow.
* I think the list need not expand out to every variation of a symptom or occurance in every anatomical position.
** Hence transient & temporary headaches might be joined on a singe line - the symptom is "headaches" and the text can indicate the various types, rather than listing as separate members of the list.
** Upper & lower back ache surely can be mentioned in a single sentance ?
** Neck and shoulder pain are often simultaneously experienced and poorly discriminated between by patients (pains often described as "shoulder" often might be the point to which a pain extends but with an origin half way up the neck, conversely a reported "shoulder pain" might originate from the upper thoracic spine) 
** Backaches (upper or lower) and neck/shoulder pains are both types of musculoskelatal pains beyond the region of the immediate side of the face. Hence I would tend to join them in a single description of "non-localisd" musculoskeletal pains (vs localised pain over the joint itself, or non-pain symptoms such as limited jaw opening or clicking sounds)
***The article makes no mention as to why upper or lower back pain is claimed as being reported. Other than the single provided link (which I can not read online) - is there (1) any other verification of these symptoms really commonly being a feature of TMJD (the list indicates ''"include, but are not limited to"'') (2) any explanation if true - e.g. is this a referred pain or is some other mechanism responsible ?
* What was wrong with expansion given of pains in the head: ''"The pain may be [[referred pain|referred]] and experienced as [[Otalgia#Secondary otalgia|earache]]"'', such that this is repeately deleted upon reverting my edit ? [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 20:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)



::What we've presently got in the article is a list of ten symptoms:

:::# Unable to open mouth all the way
:::# Pain when trying to close mouth or bite down
:::# Feeling as if lower jaw muscles are tensed too tight
:::# Popping or clicking when the mouth is opened
:::# Transient headache
:::# Persistent headache
:::# Stiffness in the neck and shoulders <ref name="TMJsydrome-Richard">  TMJ Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis, A. Richard, D. D. S. Goldman Virginia McCullough, chapter 5,  http://www.headandneck.com/book/Chapter5.htm </ref>
:::# Upper backache <ref name="TMJsydrome-Richard"/> 
:::# Lower backache <ref name="TMJsydrome-Richard"/> 
:::# Numbness in the extremities <ref name="TMJsydrome-Richard"/>


::"Ten" does not amount to unmanagebly sized list.  So we've got no reason to be looking to eliminate or combine symptoms or create subcatagorizations on the bases of "reducing the size of the list".  We would need to look for an argument that combining symptoms has some benefit of itself.

::A "transient headache" is an altogether different symptom than a "persistant headache".  The experience, causes and treatments of transient and persistent headache are not the same.  Combining them into a single entry would not assist the reader in understanding the ''different'' symptoms of tmjd.  

::Also, as the article is constantly undergoing development, the list of symptoms should remain separated out as to each different symptom for easy argument as to whether each symptom does, or does not, belong on the list.   The article as it stands, does not even discuss headache at all, so it is all the more important to avoid the potential for confusion and argument by letting each hold its own place in the symptom list, if it is, in fact, a symptom. 

::The same is true for upper and lower backache.  These two tmjd symptoms are unrelated as to experience, cause, and treatment. There is no reason to subcatagorise by "affected body part" (back) when the list is only ten long, and we would create the false implication that the two symptoms may be related in some meaningful way, which they are not (they are related, as symptoms, only to the tmj, not to eachother).   We also have no source to tell us that the lower backache is not experienced as a localized pain versus a diffuse pain, though distant from its source (the tmj).

::*I disagree with the logic - yes joint clicking and otalgia are not directely related as symptoms to each other, but to TMJD. But otalgia, neck pain, and upper & lower back pain all seem to be types of experienced referred or atypical (as in not from a direct causse at perceived site) pain in this condition. Whilst I have previously doubted the backpain symptom, having not seemed to encounter it in my professional practice (unlike frequent otalgia), I have not been trying to delete this symptom from wikipedia (once a souce given), just merge it as a class of symptoms. A search of PubMed gives further credence to non-local pain symptoms being experienced further that just as otalgia and for having a common modality of cause in this condition - source found and added to article (Ramírez  et al, 2005). (P.S. ''"Facial pain is a relatively frequent cause of presentation to both general medical and dental practitioners"'' {{PMID|16113700}}) [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 00:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::You've got no source for "But otalgia [earache, ok? let's use the public term for a public encyclopedia], neck pain, and upper & lower back pain all seem to be types of experienced referred or atypical (as in not from a direct causse at perceived site) pain in this condition".[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)  

::As to "stiffness in the neck and shoulders" - they were already combined and I left them that way. The experience, causes, and treatment are the same for tmjd-related "stiffness in the neck" and tmjd-related "stiffness in the shoulders", so we not only don't lose clarity for the reader by combining them in the list of symptoms, we gain it.

::As to sources, we only need one wikipedia-qualified source.  If you dispute accuracy of the information that is sourced, then you must find a source to dispute it and include it in the article.

::If you want to add earache to the sympton list, I would ask that you source it.
::*In those patients also dysfunction of the TMJ, otalgia occured in 63% of those with TMJD. Source found and cited (Tuz et al 2003). [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 00:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Per Dozenist's deletions of your material below, I have not re-added the earache symptom, but I will not delete your material about earache, if you do re-add your sourced summary material which Dozenist deleted from that first section. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC) 

::You have proposed that "I think the list need not expand out to every variation of a symptom or occurance in every anatomical position."   As presently constructed, none of the symptoms are variations on others in the list - a lower backache is not a variation on an upper backache, etc.  But you do hit upon something important with reference to expanding the list of symptoms based on variation of "occurance in every anatomical position".  We could, at some point, add in list form the variations in symptoms as caused by the various different anatomical posiitions of the body, such as lying down, looking up, looking down, looking to the left, looking to the right, etc, which each create a unique torquing effect in the tmj as the damaged teeth occlude at slightly different angles with each position of the head, and with the pull of the muscles as one swallows, the head lies on a pillow, etc, and which accounts for variation in symptoms. That would be a legitimate area of subcatagorization to a symptom list (as not presently being there, but useful in understanding why symptoms vary). [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 22:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::*I strongly beg to differ re ''"none of the symptoms are variations on others in the list - a lower backache is not a variation on an upper backache"''. Surely backache may be divided into lower or upper, to distinguish purely on basis of the adjective rather than the noun seems petty (might as well distinguish mild backache as being totally different from excrutiating backache). See comment above re sdymptom linkage - yes there is evidence that all have same modality of cause. [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 00:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I know of no one but you who calls a lower backache a variation on an upper backache.  Cite a source which says they are caused, diagnosed, and treated the same. As to your comparison, an excruciating backache may, or may not be, a variation on a mild backache - it depends on the cause of the backache.  In tmjd, no link whatsoever has been established between upper backache and lower backache, and therefore we cannot call one a variation on the other, as to do so would constitute original research.  You have no source for saying "there is evidence that all [tmjd upper and lower backache] have same modality of cause".[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::*Sorry, I was responding (on your talk page) to the personal attack against me in your edit summary of ''"the shoulder and lower back are different parts of the anatomy. Shame on you"'', when I stated symptom ''"occurance in every anatomical position"''. I had hoped the meaning was clear, but perhaps I should have said instead "occurance in every anatomical location", ie backpain as being in either the upper back or the lower back. I had not meant to imply differences in, say lower back pain, as thr patient changes orientation from sitting to standing, or with head turned to left or the right (and no I don't think such infor would be helpful in a general encyclopaedia - perhaps a textbook on dentistry) [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 00:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have gone through the material in a textbook of mine to add refs and detail to the section on signs and symptoms.  The heading of the section was changed to signs and symptoms because signs are an objective finding and symptoms are subjectives ones--- both of which are discussed in the section.  Also, I went ahead and avoided making a list, since I remember seeing somewhere in wikipedia that prose is preferable to lists.  The order in which the topics in this section is arranged was mirrored from the order of the textbook.  Most of the information that was previously there should remain in one form or another.  A bit of it might no longer be present because the textbook made no mention of it in the chapter I read, which was pretty extensive.  Lastly, Pat8722, I ask you again to not attack fellow wikipedians. I think David Ruben has shown a willingness to work with you by adding citations. - [[User:Dozenist|Dozenist]] [[User talk:Dozenist|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:x-small;">talk</span>]] 01:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:Your sections' headers don't describe your sections' content.  As you have not clearly or completely identified the known signs and symptoms of TMJD in your major edits to the article, I have re-added the deleted list of such in a prominent place. We want to make it easy for our readers to find the basic information.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:If you choose to try to put the info into another format, be sure to include all the sourced signs and symptoms. 

:I will be unable to contribute further until next Sunday, as present time committments bind me Monday through Saturday. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Holy crap, Dozenist's edit was awesome!  You're chastising him for providing too much information?  Unbelievable.  For someone that is such a stickler for sourcing (as we should be, no doubt), I find it perplexing that you insist on inserting an *almost* entirely unsourced list into the article. &middot; [[User:Jersyko|<span style="color:#013220;">j&middot;e&middot;r&middot;s&middot;y&middot;k&middot;o</span>]] [[User talk:Jersyko|<i style="color:#465945; font-size:x-small;">talk</i>]] &middot; 02:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:No, not for providing information, but for the information he left out.  I will fully source the symptom list before re-adding it, unless someone beats me to it.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 03:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

==TMJ:The Overlooked Diagnosis==

(1) The ''TMJ:The Overlooked Diagnosis'' book was written in the 1980s, bears no evidence of peer review, and contains no citations to scientific articles, studies, or journals.  Thus, if using the information from this book does not violate [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:V]], it at least is of questionable value in an encyclopedia article written in 2006. (2) The source cited by Dozenist in his expansion of the article is a widely used, peer reviewed, fully cited, and current dentistry textbook.  Its status as a reliable source is unassailable. (3) The insertion of the list in the article, which now also contains detailed information on the variety of signs and symptoms, disrupts the article's flow and is duplicative.  For what it's worth, I find the article's current breakdown of signs and symptoms into three main groups much more easy to read and informative than a bulleted list, though this is merely an opinion.  In any event, since this information is taken from a reliable source and the list is not, the list is inappropriate. (4) Referring to [[Wikipedia:Vandalism]] every time the list is re-added is not, in any way, going to aid our discussion here, and it is untrue that any edits related to this list amount to vandalism.  If you sincerely believed otherwise, Pat8722, you would have filed a vandalism report.  Let's have a rational discussion instead of devolving to the use of implied, empty threats. · [[User:Jersyko|<span style="color:#013220;">j&middot;e&middot;r&middot;s&middot;y&middot;k&middot;o</span>]] [[User talk:Jersyko|<i style="color:#465945; font-size:x-small;">talk</i>]] · 21:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:'''[02]'''  What is "filing a vandalism report"?  Please refer me to the wikipedia policy which provides for doing so, and specifies when it is appropriate to report vandalism, rather than merely reverting it upon explanation, which I always do.

:'''[03]'''Bad faith is evidenced when you say the material you deleted violates [[wp: verifiability]], as it is eminently obvious it does not.  I quote directly from [[wp: v] "'Verifiable' in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source". Obviously you are able to check whether the material added to wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because I listed the source.  [[wp: v]] is, therefore, totally irrelevant.

:'''[04]'''Bad faith is also evidenced when you say "Tmj Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis" violates [[wp: reliable sources]], as a review of the actual policy proves that it does not.  The [[wp: rs]] policy says primary, secondary, and tertiary sources are acceptable.  Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis qualifies as a secondary source under wikipedia [[wp:rs]] as being "produced by [a] scholar.. and published by a scholarly press.. [such presses assumed to be] ... carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative." McGraw/Hill is a reputable scholarly press, one of the largest publishers in the world, if fact, and even exceeds the standards for the publishers of most sources cited in wikipedia.

:'''[05]'''The reliability of "Tmj Syndrome: The Overlooked Diagnosis" as a source is further evidenced by the fact that the book has gone through several editions, amd at least up through at least 1989, is still published on the internet as current information, and HAS NEVER ENCOUNTERED ANY PUBLISHED OPPOSITION.  ThE symptom you are trying to obscure, BACKACHE is undisputed by anyone.  I have never met a dentist who was not fully aware that backache is a symptom of TMJD, nor do I believe it is remotely credible to postulate that there are any who aren't, nor have you yourself alleged that it is not a symptom, so presumably you also know that it is.  Until you find a source to dispute my fully sourced, professionally undisputed addition to this article, to delete it is, in fact, vandalism:  "Removing ... significant parts of articles ...  is a common vandal edit."  Furthermore, that you are trying to remove basic information whose ACCURACY IS UNDISPUTED,  your removal of the material also qualifies as "a deletion,.. made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia."  [[wikipedia: vandalism]]

:'''[06]'''Whether the information is in list or prose form, is not a serious issue to me.  As a nice succinct list makes it easy for the reader, I prefer that form, but if you prefer a different form, go ahead and make such changes - just don't delete substantive content when you do.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 00:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Why do you feel it necessary to cite to TMD:TOD instead of another source?  Why must it be this source, which, despite your assertions to the contrary, doubtfully complies with this portion of the reliable sources guideline: [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Physical sciences, mathematics and medicine]]?  Why can't you simply argue the relevant point instead of throwing out accusations of vandalism and bad faith? &middot; [[User:Jersyko|<span style="color:#013220;">j&middot;e&middot;r&middot;s&middot;y&middot;k&middot;o</span>]] [[User talk:Jersyko|<i style="color:#465945; font-size:x-small;">talk</i>]] &middot; 00:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


:'''[08]''' I cite the source I cite because it meets all wikipedia criteria, and is also readily available to the public, who may wish to seek more information.  If you want to source the material yourself, rather than delete it, I might agree to compromise and let your source stand alone, rather than also include mine.  As to arguing the relevant points, I have repeatedly demonstrated the merits of both content and the source (see above discussions), and have repeatedly demonstrated that you had no basis for complaining about my source, which averments above you have not countered.  You also have not countered the accuracy of the material you are deleting.  After repeated unjustified deletions of substantivesourced content, it becomes necessary to point out the [[wikipedia: vandalism]] policy, to civilly discourage those who repeatedly delete substantive sourced content without cause for doing so, from doing so.  You have not argued the relevant points on the issue of whether you violated the [[wikipedia: vandalism policy]] by repeatedly deleting substantive, sourced material while falsely claiming policies have been violated, which I have shown, by quoting directly from the policies, have not been violated.   Because you keep deleting the substantive, sourced content without cause, and refusing to argue the relevant points (i.e. the actual text of wikipedia policies which you falsely claim my source violates, and that fact that it IS substantive material you are deleting) it is time to address it as a vandalism issue, to discourage it from devolving into a mere revert war.  There is nothing in [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Physical sciences, mathematics and medicine]] which overrides the quotations I made above from [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources]] in support of my source.  If you believe there is, please quote the line therefrom that you believe disqualifies my source. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 01:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

::Re list - originally article had nothing but the items of this list as the signs & symptoms of the condition (revert-warring by Pat8722 to preserve each item as a separate entry rather than linking like-items together, was matter of editorial styling rather than providing any great explanation to symptoms). However there now is a coherent description of the symptoms in 3 easy-to-read subsections. The list has now served its purpose and is depreciated. [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 00:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:'''[10]''' No, the list is not a matter of mere style, because it contains information which your edits do not cover.   It is simply patently false for you to state  "there now is a ... description of .. [each of the deleted] symptoms in ... subsections", in that, for instance, "backache", was deleted by you and you did not cover it in the sections you added when you deleted the nice, concise, introductory symptom list.  As I stated, if you don't like the idea of a list, you are free to re-state the information in another way, you just must do it in a way that doesn't delete substantive, sourced content, as to repeatedly delete substantive sourced content is [[wikipedia: vandalism]] (see paragraph [05], above), and to do so without citing an applicable policy for doing so, and to claim you retained all symptoms (backache) when you did not, is to engage in unproductive revert warring, rather than productive discussion, which is also against wikipedia policy.[[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 01:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:: '''false allegation''' - backacke was not repeatedly deleted by myself however many times you care to so state - just joining of the separate "Upper backache" and "Lower backache" items on the list to "upper or lower backache" - that's not deleting mention of either, nor vandalism. (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=62916219&oldid=62879455 9th July], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=64515048&oldid=64506274 18th July] & [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=65415976&oldid=65386269 23rd July]). This amounts to your continued aggressive uncoperative style of interacting with other editors as per the RfC about you.
:: '''Full list revertion vs re-adding single items you feel nolonger covered''' - Please stop being so pedantic as to perserving your entire list when other editors have expanded the symptoms section from being a mere list into descriptive prose that clearly expands the depth & breadth covered in the article. There is no requirement in Wikipedia to duplicated every last item from full lists of data - the job of an encyclopaedia is to sumarise knowledge, and a summary is always shorter than the total amount of source material one may reference as background to an article. If an important symptom has been left off, merely reverting the whole list back in is unhelpful & uncooperative - you should only add back in the individual missing symptoms not included in the expanded text. Ideally, given how other symptoms have now been described, any re-inserted symptoms should be incorportaed into the article's text explaining how and why they occur - very much as Dozenist did. The other editors are citing their reasons for reverting the inclusion of the whole list in their sdit summary comments - if you want a policy of encyclopedic style then, as a starter, see [[WP:ISNOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information]] which states ''"Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia"''. If you really do not like the editorial approach being taken by the other current editors, then stop trying to browbeat other editors and simply raise a [[WP:RfC]] on this article for a wider opinion.  [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 03:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

3RR does not grant a user the automatic right to disrupt wikipedia process by reverting any and all other editors up to 3  times in a day - such deliberate action (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=66776067&oldid=66771140 "Third revert for today, see talk page. See you next Sunday"]) amounts, I beleive, to further example of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Pat8722 Gaming of the three revert rule]. [[WP:AN/3RR]] therefore raised re Pat8722.  [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 04:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

== Classes??  ==

Not looking for a dispute here, but I was wondering if there was someone who could provide more information on the different classes of TMJ disorder? My PCP just told me my jaw was slightly misaligned due to probable TMJ disorder and referred me to a dentist. When I made the appointment they asked if I was "class 1", I told them I guess that's what I was going to them to find out...  <br />I'm guessing my problem developed from grinding and biting habits I have due to OCD and anxiety disorders, so if anyone has information showing a relationship between the two I'd like to know about that as well.<br />thanks!<br />[[User:Polyphonickat|Polyphonickat]] 18:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
:Not sure, but might have been telling you the type of [[Malocclusion#Angle.27s_classification_method|occlusion]] you have rather than TMD. It is possible they were talking about the RDC/TMD classification (but these are called groups not classes). It is very likely that many other classifications exist, I've put the RDC/TMD in detail because it seems to be fairly modern and highly used in research studies. If I'm wrong about that and I've given a minor classification too much weight, please feel free to edit. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:43, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Past Wisdom Tooth Surgery ==
Could semi-major (one tooth was completely horizontal and set in deep into the jaw bone) impacted wisdom tooth surgery promote TMJ? 
<small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.120.93.246|69.120.93.246]] ([[User talk:69.120.93.246|talk]]) 11:54, 9 July 2007</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP -->
:It sounded v unlikely when I initially read the unreferenced comment in the article, and I was waiting to delete it, but then a few sources stated this apparently is sometimes the case, with dental extractions generally and not just the wisdom tooth extractions, or indeed any dental treatment. Combination of (i) holding mouth open for a long time and (ii) possible parafuncitonal foces exerted on the TMJs themselves during a tooth extraction this is why the dentist/oral surgeon supports the jaw with their non working hand while removing a tooth-- to try and transfer some of the forces to their own arm. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Areas where clarification would help ==
I would hazard a guess that, like me, most people accessing this article will be sufferers or possible sufferers from this condition rather than experts. From that perspective, it seems to me that three issues are far from clear, and that clarification would be of great benefit:

1. From the article, it would appear that TMD comprises the incorrect movement of the mandible '''in a fore-and-aft direction''' - but can this also occur '''laterally''', i.e. in such a way that the jaw displaces to the left and/or to the right? My condition seems to have begun as the former (characterised by clicks and pops, as described here), but has now become the latter (characterised by numbness/temporary seizing of the jaw).

2. Again from a lay perspective, what about consequences of TMD? It occurs to me - and I must stress that it occurs to me simply as a lay person - that this disorder could trap not only nerves but also blood vessels. If so, what further symptoms could result?

3. Could TMD result from difficult wisdom tooth extraction? 

(In my case, the wisdom tooth had to be cut in half laterally, using some kind of disc cutter, after which the front half was removed. Removal of the back half required a further cutting in half of the remaining tooth in the same way).

It could be that these issues might be answered by an expert contributor, and/or that there could be a reference to a related wikipedia article addressing these issues, if such exists. This could be a great help to non-expert readers.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Vvmodel|Vvmodel]] ([[User talk:Vvmodel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Vvmodel|contribs]]) 22:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

1. TMD may be caused by "incorrect use" (I'd rather say "incorrect movement"), e.g. bruxism and other parafunctional activities, pen chewing, nail biting etc, but there are many other theories as to why what causes TMD. Yes bruxism and other parafunctions can be in all sorts of patterns, some people just clench without grinding, others grind on the back teeth, maybe backwards and forwards maybe side to side, and others grind on the front teeth, again possibly side to side or maybe front to back. The significance- pain in different muscles (e.g. in side to side grinding pain will be in the muscles that move the jaw side to side), and clenching only may cause tooth wear of a different pattern to tooth wear caused by grinding. I reworked the bruxism page and this is all discussed there better than it was.

2. Each TMJ is encased within a fibrous joint capsule, which doesn't really have loose nerves and blood vessels inside- at least some of the internal tissues of this capsule do not have any blood vessels inside them. Having said that, if there is anterior disc displacement, then the softer tissues that attach the disc to the back of the joint can be pulled into the position where the disc should be. The attachment tissues are not designed to take the load of the joint like the disc is, so in a way this could be thought of as something getting trapped. I've added a new "prognosis" section to discuss the consequences of TMD, but I am having trouble filling it with anything solid due to lack of sources.

3. Addressed this now a bit in the article with a source, but it could do with expansion. Dental treatment generally, if the mouth is open for a long time, but tooth extraction especially because forces are put on the jaw. I guess wisdom tooth extraction might cause more TMJ damage potentially since they tend to take longer to extract than other teeth- means more time with mouth open and more time where forces (and possibly greater forces than with other teeth) are being put on the jaw and transferred to the TMJs. If there is a source that supports "wisdom tooth extraction more likely to cause TMD than extraciton of other teeth" this would be good to include. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:19, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

==Do I have this?==
For the last few days, I have found it painful to open my mouth very far. Also when I first wake up, I find it painful to close my teeth together, but this goes away after I force them closed a couple times. Do I have this disorder? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:138.87.219.217|138.87.219.217]] ([[User talk:138.87.219.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/138.87.219.217|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

Not enough info for diagnosis, but if I were to guess, I would say no.  More likely that your wisdom teeth are giving you trouble and you are suffering trismus.  However this is a guess and in no way constitutes a diagnosis.[[User:Dr-G|Dr-G - Illigetimi non carborundum est.]] 18:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

== Areas of treatment ==
This statement is in the introduction: "Because the disorder transcends the boundaries between several health-care disciplines — in particular, dentistry, neurology, physical therapy, and psychology — there are a variety of treatment approaches." There are no citations for this statement, and no references to many of the areas in the Treatment section. I especially feel to see how [[psychology]] comes into play, unless to deal with possible depression from the disorder. However, I don't believe that is direct enough to be mentioned, though a short mention may be warranted with a citation in another area of the article. This is only my opinion, and so I'm not willing to be bold here. - [[user:Cyborg Ninja|<span style="color:#990000;">Cyborg Ninja</span>]] 22:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
:My interpretation of the literature is that there is more evidence for a psychosocial basis to TMD than most other theories. Psychologic interventions are also sometimes used to treat TMD, sometimes shown to be more effective than occlusal splints. Maybe this is why psychology is included. Either yourself or someone else down the line trimmed this statement and now it includes only neurology and dentistry. It is still there and unreferenced. It sounds very grand but yes now I agree we need a source. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:29, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Problematic section  ==

[[Temporomandibular_joint_disorder#Relocating_a_dislocated_jaw]] sounds a lot like a how-to medical treatment guide. Is this really appropriate for Wikipedia, especially since it has no citations as to its origin, veracity, or safety? --[[User:Mr.98|Mr.98]] ([[User talk:Mr.98|talk]]) 11:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

:It's definitely problematic. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. Even if the information were 100% reliable and safe (which I have no way of knowing one way or the other) it's against policy. [[Special:Contributions/173.66.178.54|173.66.178.54]] ([[User talk:173.66.178.54|talk]]) 01:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

::Since this concern has not really been addressed since Mr.98's comment back in October, I have raised this issue on the talk page for WikiProject Medicine.  Please contribute to [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Concerns_regarding_this_section_of_the_TMJ_syndrome_article|the discussion]] there. --[[User:NickW557|Nick]]—<sup>[[User talk:NickW557|Contact]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/NickW557|Contribs]]</sub> 04:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

== Treatment section ==

This article seems to have been tampered with by persons with financial interests in a given treatment. CranioSacral therapy supposedly "taps into natural rhythms," which is utter poppycock to anyone with scientific or medical training, and the only citations for Feldenkrais methods employing a "unique" understanding of neurology led to a site selling the treatment!   <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.192.90.110|128.192.90.110]] ([[User talk:128.192.90.110|talk]]) 17:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I see this has been discussed before ... 

The article doesn't just seem like a manual it is providing direct instructions to readers about what they should and shouldn't do in the first and second person.  

It is also very poorly sourced and (I suspect) is coming from the perspective of only one specialism/approach to the problem.  

Whilst it can be hard to get citations for all sorts of different aspects of the condition and its treatment, it is definitely not on to talk about the benefits, controversies and risks without finding a reference to back it up.  

I think much of the article should be removed and reintroduced as and when someone can do so in a more encyclopedic fashion.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.195.131.21|90.195.131.21]] ([[User talk:90.195.131.21|talk]]) 17:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Refs ==

I've added a couple more books, both with google previews. Have at 'em! [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<span style="color:red; font-family:Papyrus;">come howl!</span>]]</small> 19:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

== Biofeedback head band advertisement ==

This looks like a product, not a modality. It is mentioned four times in this article. And the article it links to has one reference to medical sources.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.187.99.79|72.187.99.79]] ([[User talk:72.187.99.79|talk]]) 03:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I came in to make exactly the same comment.  I think the most blatant part was the "and can be tried for up to three weeks at no cost" bit.  I mean, it's like someone LITERALLY ripped the section from an advert.  I'm inclined to take it down.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.243.112.118|71.243.112.118]] ([[User talk:71.243.112.118|talk]]) 03:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It's still advertised on wikipedia-- [[biofeedback headband]]. I have half a mind to AfD that page it is blatantly COI. I added a few medical sources about biofeedback for TMD having no evidence, and the creator of that page deleted my edit very quickly. Strongly suspect a COI (I'm finding it harder and harder to assume good faith the more pages like that I find). The reality biofeedback is just not routinely used for treating TMD. Maybe in research land, but not in the real world. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Chiropractic adjustments ==

I don't claim to be an expert here, but why is there no mention of [[chiropractic]] in relation to this particular disorder? I thought the lead was hinting that many disciplines are concerned here... but mainly the dental and surgeon practices seem to be discussed in the present article, and little of the neuro or bone doctors. The obvious smack to the face is mentioned, but I thought chiropractors dealt with a lot of these joint and bone things. [[User:Uruiamme|I like to saw logs!]] ([[User talk:Uruiamme|talk]]) 06:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
:Added a new "alternative medicine" section to treatments, but finding an acceptable source for that is hard. Acupuncture has some evidence. It would be interesting to know how often TMD patients use these therapies. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 18:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
::A lot of difficulty finding any sources for these. I ended up searching our own wikipedia [[chiropractic]] article. No mention of TMD, but when looking through the talk page archives, we have 2 mentions of TMD: [Talk:Chiropractic/Archive_22#.22Rigorously_proven.22] and [Talk:Chiropractic/Archive_33#Changes_needed_in_the_LEAD], which in turn lead me to the following sources:

::<blockquote>''"There is some indication that chiropractic treatment may be helpful for some cases of temporomandibular disorders based on positive case reports 13,19,38 and the improvement of all nine patients in a small prospective case series.11"''[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16523145]</blockquote>

::<blockquote>''"The evidence is inconclusive for cervical manipulation/mobilization alone for neck pain of any duration, and for manipulation/mobilization for mid back pain, sciatica, tension-type headache, coccydynia, temporomandibular joint disorders, fibromyalgia, premenstrual syndrome, and pneumonia in older adults."''[http://www.chiromt.com/content/18/1/3]</blockquote>

::These sources, especially the second, seem OK to use. The first suggests that there is weak evidence (case reports and a small case series) and the second states there is inconclusive evidence, specifically in older adults. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 12:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

== Arthrocentesis nomenclature ==

According to the article on Arthrocentesis, it is not the same as joint irrigation. Arthrocentesis means to extract fluid from the joint. Joint irrigation means to inject fluid into the joint. Irrespective of the effectiveness of various treatments listed under "Long-term approach", or whether these paragraphs are organized poorly or well, the correct term as presented under "Long-term approach" is Joint irrigation, not Arthrocentesis (joint irrigation). [[User:Friendly person|Friendly Person]] ([[User talk:Friendly person|talk]]) 20:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
:Be that as it may, maxillofacial surgeons call the operation "TMJ arthrocentesis" when they flush out the joint, correctly or incorrectly. The other procedure is arthroscopy where a camera is inserted into the joint, but this also involves some flushing of hte joint and can be therapeutic as well as diagnostic in some cases. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:58, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

== Lost citations ==

Somewhere along the line, the article lost many citations to Moseby that were present in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&oldid=87295688 this version] from 2006. If someone's feeling industrious, there's room for restoring them. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<span style="color:red; font-family:Papyrus;">come howl!</span>]]</small> 17:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
:Looks like we still have a few of these references to that textbook. Ideally they could be combined into one reference. I would like to add that there are ''many'' textbooks entirely devoted to TMD. I would avoid these as much as possible since they tend to be, unfortunately, a platform for a single author, or a small group of authors, to present their own personal views of this condition rather than the mainstream view, e.g. in independent systematic reviews. I've read a few of these in the past, and some are written like religious/esoteric works rather than having any evidence base. You finish the book thinking you are a world expert, and then you read the next one and you find everything is different, even the most basic aspects. It is expert opinion rather than real evidence based medicine. I think would be ok to reference textbooks that were not focused entirely on TDM, like oral pathology/medicine textbooks, since these are likely to be more mainstream than the sub-sub-specialized books. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 13:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

== Simple English Version? ==

Im trying to help/treat my TMJ, and having to go to over a dozen different pages to find out what thrown out words mean is frustrating beyond belief.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.57.53.3|71.57.53.3]] ([[User talk:71.57.53.3|talk]]) 00:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: I started a new definitions section which should help. This page needs a lot of work. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

== Improvements ==
==="Temporomandibular joint disorder" much less notable name than "Temporomandibular joint dysfunction" in medical publications===
I used all the search terms I found for this disorder on pubmed (crude, but better than nothing imo)
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Search terms !! # pubmed hits
|-
| '''"temporomandibular joint dysfunction"''' || '''4806'''
|-
| "temporomandibular joint dysfunction syndrome" ||4560
|-
| "temporomandibular joint pain dysfunction syndrome"|| 76
|-
| "temporomandibular pain dysfunction syndrome" || 19
|-
| "temporomandibular joint disorder" || 154
|-
| "temporomandibular joint syndrome" || 109
|-
| "temporomandibular dysfunction syndrome" || 11
|-
| "temporomandibular dysfunction" || 319
|-
| "temporomandibular disorder" || 770
|-
| "temporomandibular syndrome" || 18
|-
| "Pain dysfunction syndrome" || 386
|-
| "facial arthromyalgia" || 9
|-
| "myofacial pain dysfunction syndrome" || 19
|-
| "craniomandibular dysfunction" || 141
|-
| "myofacial pain dysfunction" || 34
|-
| "masticatory myalgia" || 12
|-
| "mandibular dysfunction" || 273
|-
| "Costen syndrome" || 6
|-
| "Costen's syndrome" || 74 
|}

*''"In general, the term PDS is commonly used in UK while other terms such as myofacial pain, mandibular dysfunction, facial arthromyalgia, and masticatory myalgia are widely used in other countries."'' Al-Ani 2009 (Cochrane RV)
* "Temporomandibular joint disorders". ICD-10 [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 12:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

=== Cochrane reviews available ===
There are 4 or 5 cochrane reviews dedicated to this topic [http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/details/browseReviews/577935/Oral-pain.html]. We should be using the highest quality available evidence instead of outdated and/or primary sources. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

===Useful sources===
* AADR position statement http://www.aadronline.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3465#TMD [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 15:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
* Systematic review. Attrition, occlusion and function [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Attrition%2C+occlusion%2C+(dys)function%2C+and+intervention%3A+a+systematic+review]

===Remove primary sources===
Per [[WP:MEDRS]], the following may be unsuitable sources and need removal, ideally without losing the content they currently support, instead supporting it with suitable secondary sources. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 11:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
* ^ Zadik, Yehuda; Aktaş Alper; Drucker Scott; Nitzan W Dorrit (2012). "Aneurysmal bone cyst of mandibular condyle: A case report and review of the literature". J Craniomaxillofac Surg 40. doi:10.1016/j.jcms.2011.10.026. {{PMID|22118925}}. '''Case report''' {{done}}
* ^ Tuz HH, Onder EM, Kisnisci RS (2003). "Prevalence of otologic complaints in patients with temporomandibular disorder". Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop 123 (6): 620–3. doi:10.1016/S0889-5406(03)00153-7. {{PMID|12806339}}. '''primary source'''{{done}}
*^ Peroz I (2001). "[Otalgia and tinnitus in patients with craniomandibular dysfunctions]". HNO (in German) 49 (9): 713–8. {{PMID|11593771}}. '''primary source''' {{done}}
* ^ Sobhy OA, Koutb AR, Abdel-Baki FA, Ali TM, El Raffa IZ, Khater AH (2004). "Evaluation of aural manifestations in temporo-mandibular joint dysfunction". Clin Otolaryngol Allied Sci 29 (4):  '''primary source'''{{done}}
* ^ van der Meulen MJ, Ohrbach R, Aartman IH, Naeije M, Lobbezoo F (2010). "Temporomandibular disorder patients' illness beliefs and self-efficacy related to bruxism". J Orofac Pain 24 (4): 367–372. {{PMID|21197508}}. '''primary source''' {{done}}
* ^ Velly, AM et al. "The contribution of bruxism to persistence of TMJD pain". 88th Annual Meeting of the International Association for Dental Research (IADR). Retrieved 16 May 2013. '''primary source''' {{done}}
* ^ Viswanath A, Gordon SM (2012). "Two cases of oromandibular dystonia referred as temporomandibular joint disorder". Grand Rounds 12: 1–5. doi:10.1102/1470-5206.2012.0001. '''case report''' {{done}}
* ^ Drangsholt, M; Truelove, EL (July 2001). "Trigeminal neuralgia mistaken as temporomandibular disorder". J Evid Base Dent Pract (Mosby, Inc) 1 (1): 41–50. doi:10.1067/med.2001.116846. Retrieved 25 November 2010. can't find on pubmed, but sounds like the journal is peer reviewed. Can't even read the abstract - but sounds very likely to be a '''case report''' {{done}}
* ^ Vickers ER, Cousins MJ (2000). "Neuropathic orofacial pain. Part 2-Diagnostic procedures, treatment guidelines and case reports". Aust Endod J 26 (2): 53–63. doi:10.1111/j.1747-4477.2000.tb00270.x. {{PMID|11359283}}. probably OK as long as the review part of the publication is used rather than the case reports section. {{not done}}
*  Grossan M (1989). "Treatment of Temporomandibular Joint Disease with Biofeedback". In Leland House. The Temporomandibular Joint. Although this is a secondary source, it is from 1989, per '''[[WP:MEDDATE]]''' we really shouldn't be using this. {{done}}
* ^ Lipton JA, Ship JA, Larach-Robinson D (1993). "Estimated prevalence and distribution of reported orofacial pain in the United States". J Am Dent Assoc 124 (10): 115–21. {{PMID|8409001}}. Outdated again, '''MEDDATE''' {{done}}
* Linda LeResche, University of Washington, R01 DE016212 ... no idea what this links to. Does the code signify some kind of grant? 1st hit on google is a pdf [http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A3D39571-C87C-4B6B-A777-FE942D00EDB8/0/ImproveNationsOralCraniofacialHlth.pdf] which has the following "Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment and/or manipulation of hormone therapy among women with TMJ may reduce pain and improve functioning. (Linda LeResche, University of Washington, R01 DE016212)" since this is the only place this exact combination of words comes up, and in our article this is used to support something about CBT, my guess is this is what the original author was sourcing. However, I can't find this study on Pubmed, and there is no date. It is also possibly a primary source. Due to the uncertainty, and the easy availability of other sources, I would say remove. {{done}}
* ^ Turner JA, Holtzman S, Mancl C. Mediators, moderators, and predictors of therapeutic change in cognitive–behavioral therapy for chronic pain. Pain 2007;127(3):276–86. '''primary source''' {{done}}
* ^ url=http://www.oralmd.com/services/tmj-pain-symptoms-and-treatment/ ORAL MD | TMJ Pain, Symptoms and Treatment Unreferenced. Information contained in the advertising website of a private practice, likely aimed at increasing revenue rather than accurately presenting medical information. {{done}}
* ^ "Temporomandibular Disorders". The Cleveland Clinic. Essentially the same problems as above, only a "more prestigious" company website. No references, therefore unreliable source. {{done}}

===Normal anatomy section===
We have a "Temporomandibular joints" section which really is about the normal anatomy and a "teeth" section which really discusses causes, although it is not placed in the causes section. I think it would be good to have a ''short'' "Relevant anatomy and physiology" section. At least one reader above stated that they disliked having to visit other pages so much to understand this article. However, since we already) have (or at least should have) focused articles on the aspects of normal anatomy and physiology of relevance here ([[mastication]], [[temporomandibular joint]], [[occlusion]], [[muscles of mastication]], etc), then the need for such a section is called into question.
:I am more certain now that such a section is required for understanding of the later concepts that need to be discussed in the article, particularly the "causes" section. I will try to condense this as much as possible as I know we should not have lengthy digressions from the main topic. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

== Proposed merge with [[Neuromuscular dentistry]] ==
<s>
Frankly, there is no such thing as "neuromuscular dentistry"...by this I mean it is not a recognized subspecialty of dentistry in any country that I know of. Occlusal adjustments are no longer considered appropriate treatments for TMD by '''the vast majority''' of dentists or other clinicians who manage TMD. There is no evidence base and multiple prominent sources have discouraged the continuing use of occlusal adjustments in TMD. As to TENS for TMD, at least this is not likely to cause any permanent damage (although local skin reactions can develop where the electrodes are placed), but I wonder if there is really any evidence for this? [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 16:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

My problem with the above page is how it presents "neuromuscular dentistry" as the gold standard therapy for TMD with no other discussion of other mainstream treatment options. After chewing through a lot of high quality TMD sources, I am confident to state that "neuromuscular dentistry" for TMD is a fringe theory and should be presented with due weight, not its own article of non point of view bullshit. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 16:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC)</s>

*Strike because the concerned page was eventually deleted, primarily due a complete lack of available MEDRS sources upon which to base the topic. However, if an editor comes across a [[MEDRS]] compliant source which discusses "neuromuscular dentistry" in relation to TMD, please consider including it in the article, or simply drawing attention to its availability on the talk page. [[User:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Lesion'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Lesion|<span style="color:maroon;">''talk''</span>]]) 13:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

== Joint replacents ==

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_dysfunction&curid=30707&diff=640879006&oldid=640792828#Management]
I feel the edit by {{u|Flsurfgirl}} places undue weight on a surgical procedure that is very rarely carried out for TMJ-PDS. It is also entirely related to the USA, and therefore of no interest to most readers. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson 57]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 01:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
::Agree, summarized and moved to a subpage. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 12:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

== Should add a subsection about softer foods & smaller bites when eating ==

For the section on management, I have an idea from my own experience, which of course I can't directly add to the article. I think I have a mild case of TMD. At my dentist's suggestion, I went to a softer diet. For some folks, a fully soft diet is best (eg baby food and smoothies). I have found by experience that I don't have to go that far, but I do need to avoid crunchy foods like raw carrots and heavy-chewy foods like crusty bread. Also, I need to eat with smaller bites, more slowly, and with care. I would be very surprised if there isn't a good ref. for ideas in this category for people with TMD. However, I don't know what the ref. is, so I'll let some other Wikipedian find it and write it up. [[User:Oaklandguy|Oaklandguy]] ([[User talk:Oaklandguy|talk]]) 21:51, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

== Gastroenterology? ==

I've had a quick look at the info box and it says TMJ falls under the "speciality" of "gastroenterology". I'd assume the speciality is neuromuscular, I'm pretty certain than it's nothing to do with the digestive system though. I've been unable to edit the article as I can't see the "speciality" section, if someone could do so it'd be of benefit to the article. [[User:Arkhangelsk185|Arkhangelsk185]] ([[User talk:Arkhangelsk185|talk]]) 20:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

:This field is autogenerated from ICD codes I think. Hence most oral pathology is considered under gastrointestinal pathology. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 22:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

:You do find some oddities that is for sure, thank-you for edit and your prompt response it's sincerely appreciated. [[User:Arkhangelsk185|Arkhangelsk185]] ([[User talk:Arkhangelsk185|talk]]) 23:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
::Orthopedics or OMFS would make more sense to me than gastroenterology for TMJ dysfunction though a case could be made for neurology/psych too I suppose. [[User:TylerDurden8823|TylerDurden8823]] ([[User talk:TylerDurden8823|talk]]) 23:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
:::It's mostly dentists that deal with this in my experience. But yes also omfs, oral medicine, etc. Not sure orthopedics would be involvd in this condition. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 23:35, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
::::In certain cases it's feasible that they could be if there were significant osteoarthritis of the joint, but I agree it's largely dentists, OMFS, etc. [[User:TylerDurden8823|TylerDurden8823]] ([[User talk:TylerDurden8823|talk]]) 23:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

== proposed move to [[temporomandibular disorder]] ==

This is the preferred UK and US term according to http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/temporomandibular-joint-disorder/Pages/Introduction.aspx and http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1143410-overview --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 18:05, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support''': {{u|espoo}}, the preferred european term is "temporomandibular joint pain dysfunction syndrome". "Temporomandibular disorder is the term largely used in the US. See this article's section on variation in terminology for references to support this. However, I feel temporomandibular disorder is probably used more commonly in enlgish language sources overall so support this move. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

:Did you look at the two links above? They show this is also the term preferred in the UK because otherwise it wouldn't be used by the NHS. --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 18:42, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

::This one link doesn't hold immeasurable weight. One website affiliated with NHS doe not make a term official for the UK. And coincidentally one could very easily find many other "NHS" sources which use different terms. I've read literally hundreds of sources on this condition from all around the globe. Perhaps "TMD" is becoming in more wide use in UK and europe generally in recent times, but it is by no means the only term used. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:45, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

:::This is not "one website affiliated with NHS"; it's their official website, so you can be sure they specifically decided that this is the term they prefer! Anything else is speculation until you show us a different NHS URL. --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 18:49, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

::::NHS choices is not the official NHS website. As an NHS employee I can assure there is no offical website. In response to a request for more sources, I've already referred you to the section "Definitions and terminology". [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

:::::As you can see by the name of the URL, nhs.uk, this is '''the''' official public website of the NHS. What they choose to use there is an official public terminology choice. --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 19:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::NHS choices doesn't define a standard medical terminology for the NHS, let alone the UK as a whole. NHS choices is mainly a repository of contact details for NHS services to help the public access them. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 13:49, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

==Synonyms==

To refer to this condition as TMJ is incorrect. TMJ is the abbreviation for the joint itself. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]])

:When we have a very reliable source saying that this is the common name for the condition, it's a very bad idea to remove that edit and the source! Wikipedia is not a medical journal -- according to our manual of style, we are at the very least '''supposed''' to mention the most common name in the first line. In fact, the article should even be moved to that most common name, but there may be a special guideline for medical topics. --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 18:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
::If we look up "TMJ" in any medical dictionary or reliable scientific source it will give a definition about the joint not this condition. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:53, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

:::That's not the point. We also have to tell our readers what the common colloquial names are. And you are hopefully not serious in questioning the authority and seriousness of the [http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/oralhealth/Topics/TMJ/TMJDisorders.htm National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research], are you? --[[User:Espoo|Espoo]] ([[User talk:Espoo|talk]]) 18:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
::::Yes but people do use TMJ as an abreviation for the condition and the NIH supports so I am okay with it [http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/oralhealth/Topics/TMJ/TMJDisorders.htm] [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 14:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

::::Some "people" i.e. some patients not professionals, incorrectly use TMJ to refer to TMD. TMJ is temporomandibular joint. I'm OK wih including this point but must describe it as an incorrect colloquialism. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
:::::The lead should be a summary. That discussion IMO belongs in the body. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 01:05, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

===Lock jaw===
To make the claim that it is known as lock jaw one needs a good reference.

This is not a good source [http://www.leadingdentists.com/blog/is-lockjaw-the-same-as-tmd/ Is Lockjaw the Same as TMD?]. In fact it look fairly spam like.

[[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 14:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

::"lockjaw" is a closer synonym to [[trismus]] not TMD. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 18:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
:::Yes agree. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 01:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

== NEW FINDING: Main Cause of TMD Is Mastoidite ==

For more information see these articles: https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=active&rlz=1C1CHWL_enIR734IR734&q=Mastoidite&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmzp_v0NrTAhXIApoKHbqmCXIQBQgiKAA&biw=1366&bih=589  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.78.143.218|5.78.143.218]] ([[User talk:5.78.143.218#top|talk]]) 06:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::As far as I can see those are not articles the link is to google search results for keyword "Mastoidite". I think the English word for this is [[Mastoiditis]]. After a brief search on pubmed, I found some evidence that if this infection spreads to the TMJ from the mastoid air cells then there may be pain and dysfunction of the TMJ, however given the incredibly low incidence of mastoiditis relative to temporomandibular disorder / temporomandibular joint pain - dysfunction syndrome, it seems impossible that mastoiditis is a main cause of TMD. [[User:Matthew Ferguson 57|Matthew Ferguson]] ([[User talk:Matthew Ferguson 57|talk]]) 11:05, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
::Matthew has a good point, but the main problem is, I believe, that we still don't have proper classification of the disorder in terms of duration, for example. I believe that there must be a better separation of cases which appear and last for some 30 minutes or an hour, to those which are present permanently, even if the symptoms are identical. For example, uric acid crystals in the joint can easily cause swelling, pain, etc. in a short period of time, yet dissolve and vanish soon after, while other causes would come in slower and so on...