View source for Talk:Swissair Flight 111

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|otd7date=2020-09-02|otd7oldid=976050940

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|action4date = 14:00, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
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==until?==
<s>''The Canadian Transportation Safety Board (TSB) did not release its preliminary report until August 30, 2000 and the final report was delayed until.''

Until when?

Any update on the lawsuit?</s>

:{{tick}} 2003-02-24 is the ''last update'' date on the TSB report.  Ref 18 speaks to the end of the lawsuit.

== Nationalities table ==

{|class="wikitable sortable collapsed floatright" style="float:right;font-size:75%"
|- style="background:#ccf;"
|+ "Final" / uncited tally of passenger nationalities
|-
!|Nationality|||Passengers|||Crew|||Total
|- valign=top
|{{flag|Afghanistan|1992}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{CAN}}||3||0||3
|- valign=top
|{{CAN}} and {{MAR}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{CHN}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{EGY}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{FRA}}||41||0||41
|- valign=top
|{{FRA}} and {{GBR}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{FRA}} and {{USA}}||2||0||2
|- valign=top
|{{GER}}||1||0||1
|-
|{{GRE}} and {{USA}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{GRE}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{IND}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{IRN}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{IRN}} and {{USA}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{ISR}} and {{CHE}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{ITA}}||3||0||3
|- valign=top
|{{LIB}}||2||0||2
|- valign=top
|{{MEX}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{RUS}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{SAU}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{SKN}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{ESP}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{SWE}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{CHE}}||31||13||44
|- valign=top
|{{CHE}} and {{NED}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{CHE}} and {{GBR}}||2||0||2
|- valign=top
|{{CHE}} and {{USA}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top
|{{GBR}}||3||0||3
|- valign=top
|{{GBR}} and {{USA}}||2||0||2
|- valign=top
|{{USA}}||110||1||111
|- valign=top
|{{FR-YUG}}||1||0||1
|- valign=top class="sortbottom"
|'''Total'''||'''215'''||'''14'''||'''229'''
|}

The table of nationalities is evidently wrong: the numbers given add up to 234, not 229. I have removed this table from the article until such time as it can be corrected. [[Special:Contributions/80.2.41.198|80.2.41.198]] ([[User talk:80.2.41.198|talk]]) 22:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
:It is not uncommon for numbers to not add up.  The Titanic disaster is a good example of this, where the number of survivors in each lifeboat does not add up to the total number of survivors.  In the case of a breakdown by nationality of people on an airliner, there will have been some people of dual nationality who might be counted in both nationalities, and some people may also be missing.  On a website with Wikipedia's structure where random people keep altering things, numbers will inevitably end up not adding up.

:That the numbers do not add up is not a good reason to delete the table.  That the table does not cite a source would be.--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">[[User:Toddy1| Toddy1]] [[User talk:Toddy1|(talk)]]</span> 09:07, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
::Table does not accurately represent the victims. Alma Zimmerman Milne and Robert Milne were citizens of St. Kitts and residents of Switzerland. Where are they included on this list? There was was one St. Kitts citizen mentioned and was previously on the table, but it has been removed multiple times. This makes no sense and is offensive to this couple who are both just as dead as everyone else on the flight. [[User:Truthfulpast|Truthfulpast]] ([[User talk:Truthfulpast|talk]]) 03:30, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Please provide a reliable source for that info. All I can see after a brief search is that they lived in Ohio, were retired and had a vacation home in Switzerland.[https://www.newspapers.com/article/31852369/swiss_air_crashes_death_of_robert_and/] [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9809/07/swissair.victims.list/index.html] What is the name of the other St. Kitts citizen? Cite a source for that as well. --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 11:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
::::That information is not accurate. They did not live in the United States any longer. Their death certificates both include their place of residence as Switzerland. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8806:9080:190:4CDD:C5C6:D68E:99CF|2600:8806:9080:190:4CDD:C5C6:D68E:99CF]] ([[User talk:2600:8806:9080:190:4CDD:C5C6:D68E:99CF|talk]]) 02:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Find-a-grave is not a reliable source because it can be changed by people without proper sources or reasons. However, I looked at ancestry.com and their pages match primary sources listed, birth indexes, marriage records, etc on Ancestry.com. [https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/35753781/robert-david-milne Robert Milne] was born in Michigan, [https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/35753808/alma-jean-milne Alma Zimmerman-Milne] was born in Ohio. IDK if they changed citizenship when they retired, or what, but they lived in Ohio most of their lives, from what I can tell on Ancestry.com. Either way, you need a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that says St. Kitts for them. Thank you. --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 12:44, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Part of the issue here is that Swiss Air initially released nationality estimates based on passports per [http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9809/04/swissair.crash.01/ CNN] and they listed 1 St. Kitts national. Apparently you can buy a [[Saint Kitts and Nevis passport]] for a variety of reasons and it doesn't necessarily mean the person was born there. Later when the list of names was released and published by [http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9809/07/swissair.victims.list/index.html CNN], there was no one listed as being from St. Kitts. At most, someone in that list had a passport and perhaps dual citizenship. I can't find a name. Please provide a source if you have one. --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 18:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
::::No one ever said they were born in St. Kitts. The list is not birthplace. I have copies of their birth, marriage, death certificates and wills. The death certificate clearly shows both resided in St. Kitts. All of these documents are far better sources than CNN. [[User:Truthfulpast|Truthfulpast]] ([[User talk:Truthfulpast|talk]]) 02:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
::::Probate court includes Swiss address. 
::::https://probate.cuyahogacounty.us/pa/CaseParties.aspx?q=MTQzNDYz
::::https://probate.cuyahogacounty.us/pa/CaseParties.aspx?q=MjA2NzY4 [[User:Truthfulpast|Truthfulpast]] ([[User talk:Truthfulpast|talk]]) 02:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::I dont think any of your sources is a reliable source for which passport they were travelling on at the time of the accident. [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 07:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::I'm not sure what you're looking for, Truthfulpast, but without a reliable source I don't think the table needs to be changed. The list is not a list of where they had a house, residency, or mailing address. It's clear to me, based on the sources in the article and the Ohio newspaper article above, that they were both US nationals. Maybe they had passports or some kind of arrangement for tax purposes, but that's beyond the scope of this article. As far as I can tell, they are included in the list under USA, as cited by the 1998 CNN article. --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 21:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::How disgusting that you don't accept actual records, but choose to believe some article from CNN? My sources are far better than yours. It is clear to me and anyone who can do research that they were not Ohio residents or citizens. You are the type of person who makes Wikipedia look bad. Stop trying to rewrite history. [[User:Truthfulpast|Truthfulpast]] ([[User talk:Truthfulpast|talk]]) 19:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I don't understand what you want. The Milnes were both born in the United States and lived there for most of their lives. They are clearly US citizens. US Social Security death index lists both of them. Ancestry.com has birth records for them in Michigan and Ohio. They have an obituary in a Cleveland Newspaper. CNN lists them as residents of Fairview, Ohio. Local newspaper listed above says Fairview, Ohio. Did they renounce their US citizenship or something? I don't understand what your claim is. Are you saying the were dual citizens of Switzerland and USA? What does all this have to do with St. Kitts? Are you saying they had triple citizenship? Are you saying having a home in St. Kitts makes you a St. Kitts national and not a US national even if you were born in the USA? What exactly do you want? --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 22:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

== This source says 137 Americans died according to Swiss Air ==

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/swissair/stories/crash090498.htm

Are we sure its 132?? [[User:AaronY|AaronY]] ([[User talk:AaronY|talk]]) 16:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
:I think that is an earlier report based solely on Swiss Air looking at what passport was presented. The later reports cited in the article, CNN, try to sort out dual citizens, etc. It's tricky as you can see in a previous section of this talk page. --[[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] ([[User talk:Dual Freq|talk]]) 13:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

== GA concerns ==

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the [[WP:GA?|good article criteria]] due to several uncited paragraphs. Is anyone interested in fixing up this article, or should it go to [[WP:GAR]]? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 01:40, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

==GA Reassessment==
{{Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Swissair Flight 111/1}}

== "HEAVY" description ==

Flight 111 is described as Swissair 111 heavy multiple times shortly before the incident and multiple times as the incident was taking place. I'm unsure as to why the callsign bullet would not include "heavy" in the description because I feel like it would fit the bill. After all, the md-11 was considered a heavy aircraft and this particular plane was carrying precious cargo. If anybody could explain when it is appropriate to use "heavy" it would be appreciated. The only other article I've seen a "heavy" description used is the TWA 800 article. [[User:Susrage|Susrage]] ([[User talk:Susrage|talk]]) 14:01, 9 May 2025 (UTC)