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== wording about when Scouting started ==

It is stated in the 2nd para that "Scouting began in 1907 when Robert Baden-Powell, Lieutenant General in the British Army, held the first Scouting encampment at Brownsea Island in England."  I think the wording should be revised to something like:  "By tradition, Scouting is said to have begun in 1907.  It was then that Robert Baden-Powell, ..."

I would be bold and just revise it that way, but I think the first sentence requires a footnote to a source about the date generally being ascribed to be 1907, and i don't have the appropriate source.

This wording would be more factual.  It is hard to define the beginning point of Scouting.  It could easily be defined, instead, to be the earlier date of the siege of Mafeking in which Baden-Powell organized and/or noticed boys engaging in military support and also engaging with his handbook on scouting for soldiers.  Or, the date could be defined to be 1905, when i read that [[Daniel Carter Beard]] started the [[Sons of Daniel Boone]] organization (which was later folded into Boy Scouts in 1910).  My point is that the date Scouting began is something that is arbitrary, albeit perhaps by a kind of consensus, and the wikipedia article should be clear about that, not just uncritically repeat what is said. [[User:Doncram|doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram|talk]]) 05:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

: Do I understand you correct: Scholars like [[Tim Jeal]] or [http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-bp.htm Mark K. Smith] are erring on this date? Both are cited in the history section.
: Is there substantial scientific controversy about the year Scouting started? Are there notable scientific publications which date Scouting back to 1899 (Mafeking) or 1905 (Seton)? You could help us improve this article with mentioning these. --[[User:Jergen|jergen]] ([[User talk:Jergen|talk]]) 09:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

::I don't know of controversy about it, although I don't know enough about this history to know if there is.  Perhaps there are American claims to being first?  It could at least be argued that it started in 1899 or 1905, I would think, yes, and I do not understand how one determines when a broad movement like this, which certainly has earlier-than-1907 roots, is said to convert from not-started to started status.  And, in the article, I don't see that either of the two scholars mentioned state that Scouting started on a certain date.  It is just stated--baldly it seems to me--that Scouting started in 1907.  I think an explanation or semantic distancing in the form of "it is generally agreed that Scouting started in 1907" would be more appropriate, and i think the provision of a citation on the date would help, too. [[User:Doncram|doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram|talk]]) 10:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::BP's 1908 date is at least something most of us can somewhat agree on as it started the formal movement known as Scouting. Anything else opens a can of worms of claims and counter claims due to the many precursor movements.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Rlevse|<b style="color:#060;"><i>R</i>levse</b>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 10:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Back in 1900 two boys wrote to tell B-P that they had formed the 'Baden-Powell Scouting Society'. As said above, these claims and counter-claims open many cans of worms.  There are also several instances of national organisations re-writing the history to suit their own needs, which makes reliable sourcing challenging. [[User:DiverScout|DiverScout]] ([[User talk:DiverScout|talk]]) 11:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The reference to the 'Baden-Powell Scouting Society' being formed in 1900 is by E.E. Reynolds who didn't cite a source. Is there any other reference?

[[User:Robert c2227|Robert c2227]] ([[User talk:Robert c2227|talk]]  03:21, 27 January 2013

So, who can put an exact date on when the Scout Movement started?  For all the edits and re-edits by "experts" in the years since this comment was first posted, we still don't have a clear answer. The [[Scout Association]]'s incorporating royal charter of 1912 ]] <ref>{{cite web |url= http://scoutdocs.ca/Scouts_Canada_Act_/Royal_Charter.php|title= Royal Charter of The Boy Scouts Association|accessdate=2007-08-15 |publisher= Scoutdocs}}</ref> gives a vague date of 1908, yet The [[Scout Association]] later claimed 1907.  Surely the great observant scout and "genius", Baden-Powell, who petitioned for the royal charter in 1911 knew when he supposedly founded the scouts just a few years before. Too many lies are hidden by such vagaries. The Scout Movement developed but The [[Scout Association]] started on an ''exact'' date.

This article needs to distinguish the Scout [[Social_movement |Movement]] from The [[Scout Association]]

[[User:Robert c2227|Robert c2227]] ([[User talk:Robert c2227|talk]]) 06:55, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

:Well, despite all the posturing by a recent editor, it seems to remain generally accepted{{by whom}} that Baden-Powell's camp of 1907 marked the start of the official{{clarify}} Scout Movement, as that was when the concepts for the training manual for the game were tested prior to the publication of that manual.  Robert, as you seem to be the loudest "expert", perhaps you would like to enlighten us poor mortals with some evidence of your research into the matter?  [[User:DiverScout|DiverScout]] ([[User talk:DiverScout|talk]]) 08:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

::Don't hold your breath. Robert only posted here over a period of around a day and a half. He hasn't posted now for over two days. It wouldn't surprise me if we see no more of that incarnation. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 10:11, 17 January 2013 (UTC)  Good on you HiLo48!

DiverScout, "Generally accepted" does not make it a validated historical fact. In what way was the Brownsea Island Camp '"official"' as you state? As your comment above (of 21 January 2009) indicates there were boys forming scouting organizations such as the "Baden-Powell Scouting Society" in 1900. Why qualify the facts and try and attach some other meaning to them?  Why not just stick to the facts and state that Baden-Powell held a camp on Brownsea Island in 1907 without trying to claim that it marked the beginning of something or was an 'official' start of something else. Stick to the facts. [[User:Robert c2227|Robert c2227]] ([[User talk:Robert c2227|talk]]) 02:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
{{Reflist-talk}}

:Right, I have again removed your edits from the lead.  As you have been told, where points are discussed in the body of the text they do not need references in the lead.  As to the next point, Scouting was started through the publication of the rule book for the game by Baden-Powell.{{CN}}  Those ideas were tested, prior to publication, at a camp in 1907.  This has been taken{{by whom}} as the accepted{{by whom}} start of Scouting.  If you personally do not agree with that idea, fine, but find a reliable, independent source that states that Scouting (not a NSA) started at a different time and we can talk.  The BPSS is an example of proto-Scouting, just as there are examples of games like rugby played before rugby was invented, and I would like to one day find a decent refence to add it to the Origins section where the matter you are so concerned with is discussed through referenced sources.
:Now, if you can research reliable references to back your claims that the internationally accepted{{by whom}} dates are wrong, add them properly to the main body of the text, I will probably back you all the way.  Continue with your disruptive edits and I will become increasingly blunt in my dealings with you. [[User:DiverScout|DiverScout]] ([[User talk:DiverScout|talk]]) 09:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

DiverScout, you resort to vague generalities e.g. "This has been taken...". By whom, when and where?  As you challenge, "''find a reliable, independent source''". What was the "''rule book''" by Baden-Powell? Have you ever even seen Baden-Powell's book in its original edition? Then you dismiss the BPSS as "proto-scouting". The difference with your attempted Rugby analogy is that none of the other Rugby-like games were called Rugby. With the BPSS and others you dismiss as "proto-Scouting" we have Scouts doing scouting, calling themselves and being called Scouts and Boy Scouts doing scouting, calling themselves boy scouts and being called Boy Scouts. ... and then you resort to threats. Just a bully!

You cannot state something as fact in the lead, then reference it in a way somewhere in the body which, when critically examined, makes it apparent that the lead is misleading and deceptive. The aim of one organization is not the aim of the movement. Both "''generally considered''" and "''This has been taken as the accepted''" are attempts at [[fudging]] facts. Stick to the plain facts and stop trying to embellish them with a story to suit your own beliefs. [[User:Robert c2227|Robert c2227]] ([[User talk:Robert c2227|talk]]) 14:03, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

:Oh dear, I'm afraid that I will have to reply to your points when I have finished laughing.  It may take some time.  Hopefully one of the other editors will be able to deal with you in the meantime. [[User:DiverScout|DiverScout]] ([[User talk:DiverScout|talk]]) 19:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The article begins with this: "This article is about the Scouting Movement."  So what exactly IS  a "Scout"?  The great strength of the Scout and Guide Movements - the greatest movements for peace that the world has ever known - is that every member has made the same Promise, and keeps the same Laws - albeit in different forms and different languages.  Therefore, the first Scout was the first to take that Promise to keep those Laws.  Hence there cannot have been a Scout (in the sense that this article is about) until the Promise and the Laws had been published - which it was in "Scouting for Boys", so that gives the earliest possible date.  Am I wrong?  The boys on Brownsea were NOT Scouts.  Similarly, the Bible (Acts 11:26) tells us that it was in Antioch that they first called themselves Christians.  Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.  I believe, too, (BICBW) that every enrolled British Scout's enrollment had to be registered by the Boy Scout Association.  Also, a Scout is (by definition) part of a Patrol, and part of a Scout Troop - which itself has to be "registered".  Whithout meeting these criteria, no boy is "officially" a Scout.  Does the Scout Association have those records still?  One would think so, and I find it extra-ordinary that this date is still in doubt !  [[User:RobinClay|RobinClay]] ([[User talk:RobinClay|talk]]) 19:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

:Interspersed comments on the above:

:The article begins with this: "This article is about the Scouting Movement."  So what exactly IS  a "Scout"? [HERE HERE!]  The great strength of the Scout and Guide Movements - the greatest movements for peace that the world has ever known{{cn}} - is that every member has made the same Promise{{cn}}, and keeps the same Laws{cn}} - albeit in different forms and different languages. [IS IT THE SAME OR DIFFERENT? CUBS DO NOT MAKE THE SCOUT PROMISE/OATH AND DO NOT PROMISE TO OBEY OR KEEP THE SCOUT LAW. HOW THEN CAN CUBS BE SCOUTS?]] Therefore, the first Scout was the first to take that Promise to keep those Laws.{{CN}}  Hence there cannot have been a Scout (in the sense that this article is about){{clarify}} [NOTE QUALIFICATION] until the Promise and the Laws had been published - which it was in "Scouting for Boys", so that gives the earliest possible date.  Am I wrong?  The boys on Brownsea were NOT Scouts.  [BUT THEY DID SCOUTING IN A MANNER THAT WOULD MAKE THEM BOY SCOUTS AND THEY WERE REFERRED TO AS BOY SCOUTS]  Similarly, the Bible (Acts 11:26) tells us that it was in Antioch that they first called themselves Christians. [NOTE QUALIFICATION "CALLED THEMSELVES"]  Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.  I believe, too, (BICBW) that every enrolled British Scout's enrollment had to be registered by the Boy Scout Association.{{CN} [WRONG!]  Also, a Scout is (by definition){{cn}} part of a Patrol, and part of a Scout Troop - which itself has to be "registered"{{cn}}. [THE FIRST SCOUTS WERE NOT REGISTERED]  Whithout meeting these criteria, no boy is "officially"{{clarify}} ["OFFICIALLY" BY WHOSE SAY SO?] a Scout.{{CN}}  Does the Scout Association have those records still? [BOYS AND GIRLS STARTED SCOUTING, CALLING THEMSELVES AND BEING CALLED BOY SCOUTS AND GIRL SCOUTS AND FORMED PATROLS AND TROOPS BEFORE THE SCOUT ASSOCIATION WAS FORMED]  One would think so, and I find it extra-ordinary that this date is still in doubt !

:The problem for putting a date on when Scouting or the Scout Movement started or when there was the first Boy Scout is that editors define Scouting or what it is to be a Scout differently. These definitions are all arbitrary. Editors refer to well established events but then try to ascribe to those events something more by arbitrary definition. Using weasel words like "generally accepted" only make the falsity of the claims more obvious. The Scout Movement is a movement, not an organization with a constitution or foundation date. There were events in the Scout Movement's genesis and history but no single point of time of origin. Refer to the events without embellished interpretation.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.4.92|115.42.4.92]] ([[User talk:115.42.4.92|talk]]) 00:02, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
::(Disclaimer, I am a scout leader and scouting member since ~2004/5 when I joined Beavers, the youngest section at the time)
::The 1907-8 date is the officially recognised date by the [https://www.scout.org/scout-movement  World Organisation of Scouting Movements ] as well as the commonly recognised date by UK Scouting
::''"With an international Membership of approximately 25 million, well over half a million in the UK alone, the Scout Movement is the world's largest voluntary organisation for boys and girls. Impressive figures - particularly when you consider that Scouting began with 20 boys and an experimental camp held during the first nine days of August 1907, at Brownsea Island, Dorset."'' [https://www.scouts.org.uk/about-us/our-history/how-scouting-grew/]
::<span style="background-color: grey"><span style="color: purple"><b>JC</b></span></span> aka [[User:Jthekid15|JtheKid15]]<sup>[[User talk:Jthekid15| (Communications)]]</sup> 15:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

== Improvement/rewrite or FAR needed ==

A decent part of this article is just plain unsourced. The rest of the sourcing leaves a great deal to be desired. Although there are high quality books and scholarly sources about Scouting, this article relies heavily on websites affiliated with the scouting movement. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 07:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
: Could you please specify your viewpoint as well as give us the titles of the "high quality books and scholarly sources about Scouting" you mentioned? Living outside the English speaking world, my access to those as well as literature on Scouting in my native language is limited. --[[User:Jergen|jergen]] ([[User talk:Jergen|talk]]) 11:16, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think in part this is because the websites are easily verifiable whereas books are less so.  Official scouting websites don't seem to be a bad source imo but I understand the want to include material from sources such as Scouting for Boys or other more modern publications.  <span style="background-color: grey"><span style="color: purple"><b>JC</b></span></span> aka [[User:Jthekid15|JtheKid15]]<sup>[[User talk:Jthekid15| (Communications)]]</sup> 10:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
::[[WP:FA criteria|Featured articles are expected to be well-researched and cite high-quality reliable sources]], which is usually interpreted as foreclosing over reliance on sources that are closely affiliated with the article subject. [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=scouting+movement&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48 Just searching "scouting movement" on Google Scholar] shows there are an abundance of independent, high quality reliable sources about the article topic. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 21:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

== wording/sourcing for statistic on Muslim scouts ==
In reference to the final sentence of the History -> Influences section, which says "Worldwide, roughly one in three Scouts are Muslim." The source it gives for this says "it is said that worldwide, roughly one in three Scouts are Muslim", which does not seem to be intended as a factual claim; it does not reference any actual data. Since the scouting tradition is strongest in Anglophone countries with relatively low Muslim populations (e.g. Britain, North America, Australia), and were explicitly Christian historically, I think this is unlikely to be an accurate statistic. It might be better to revise this to say something like "A growing population of Scouts worldwide are Muslim" or "policies of scouting organizations have broadened to be more open to Muslim members" - these would preserve the intent of this sentence while being more factually accurate, and better reflecting what the article cited actually says.
:The country in the world with the largest number of Scouts is Indonesia, a mostly Muslim country. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 01:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

:That is not even close to the same claim as the one in the article though? [[Special:Contributions/198.160.139.1|198.160.139.1]] ([[User talk:198.160.139.1|talk]]) 04:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
==Sources==
{{ping|Graywalls}}, I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scouting&diff=prev&oldid=1214733396 reverted] your edit. There are more than 100 sources. If you think some are bad, please tag those sources rather than slapping a template on the top of the page. Thanks. --[[User:evrik|evrik]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:evrik|talk]])</sup> 03:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

:{{re|Evrik}}, why would you do a drive-by template removal when there are clearly a whole ton of unacceptable sources, such as http://www.britishbattles.com/great-boer-war/mafeking.htm to start with. The template serves the purpose of notifying others of such issues so others can help along in removal of unacceptable sources as well. By removing it, you removed the trouble flag. I see you have not corrected the issue either. Why? [[User:Graywalls|Graywalls]] ([[User talk:Graywalls|talk]]) 06:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

:: Sorry, but a general tagging in a drive-by-shooting manner is not helpful and can't be adressed. Please explain in detail which sources are - in your eyes - unacceptable and why. The aforementioned website britishbattles.com has more than 100 usages in article namespace, so your point has to be more specific, since this website seems perfectly acceptable to some (I think numerous) editors. --[[User:Jergen|jergen]] ([[User talk:Jergen|talk]]) 14:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
I am going to be AFK until next week. Just an FYI, I just posted this: [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27 noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Graywalls reported by User:Evrik (Result:_)]] --[[User:evrik|evrik]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:evrik|talk]])</sup> 03:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

==Disputed==
===Introduction should refer to Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and Scouts===
A gang of editors are insistently trying to expunge the terms Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. The terms are still widely in use by many organizations and most readers would be familiar if not more familiar with the terms "Boy Scouts", "Girl Scouts" and the terms should therefore be prominent in the introduction of the article.

One editor asserted in their edit summary "''Most Scouting organisations no longer differentiate between boy scouts and girl scouts. They are all just scouts.''" but this article is not those organization's private website to push their usages and views.

Another editor published misinformation in their edit summary claiming: "''Not to mention that Girl Guides are also part of the Scouting movement also despite your attempts in the Girl Guides article discussion to claim otherwise''" when it is very apparent from that discussion page, edits and mention and content on Girl Guides left untouched, including in this article, that Girl Guides are considered to be part of the Scout Movement. This gang of editors use every tactic, including misinformation, to push their POV.

Their aim appears to be to maintain a divide between Scout organizations (for boys and co-ed) and those girl-only Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, reflecting the established hegemony of the [[World Organization of the Scout Movement|WOSM]] & [[World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts|WAGGGS]] divide and those organizations' positions.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 23:58, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

:I am one of "those" editors. My aim is to reflect reality. "Co-ed" is an American term. Even in the US today it's just Scouting, not Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. The only divide is in the minds of those still resisting a change that has already happened. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 00:47, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think the above is very helpful. However, it does not seem to be clear to some people that the girls only section is called Girl Guides in some countries (e.g. UK) and Girl Scouts in other countries (e.g. USA). [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 00:54, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

::Yes, it could be of value to mention where those girls only organisations fit in. Now that the US has changed, are there any boys only organisations left? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]])`

:::In other countries?  I think so though sometimes it is hidden because Girl Guides and the Boy Scouts have a national federation (e.g., [[Jordanian Association for Boy Scouts and Girl Guides]]) but the girls and boys are in single sex units.  Also it seems Pakistan.  Note I do have some difficulty getting current info.   --[[User:Erp|Erp]] ([[User talk:Erp|talk]]) 04:21, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

HiLo48, You claim "''Even in the US today it's just Scouting, not Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts''" but this ignores the [[Girl Scouts of the USA]]. I do not disagree that many scout organization have dropped reference to "boy" and don't distinguish as to "boy" scouts and "girl" scouts and use only the term scout but that is organizational policy, not common usage. You state your "''aim is to reflect reality''". The reality is that the terms boy scout and girl scout have not disappeared and remain not only in wide common use but in the names of many organizations.

Bduke, You claim that the "''girls only section is called Girl Guides in some countries (e.g. UK)''" but that is and always has been false, as:
* there were Girl Scouts in the UK from at least 1908.
* Girl Scouts are well recorded at the [[1909 Crystal Palace Scout Rally]] (see [[Girlguiding]] and [[Girl Guides]]).
* Girls Scouts continued in the [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association|British Girl Scouts]], from at least 1910.
* Not all Girl Scouts and local patrols and troops of Girl Scouts in the UK converted and joined Baden-Powell's [[Girl Guides Association]], with some joining the British Girl Scouts and others continued independently.
* Some [[Baden-Powell Scouts' Association|BP Scout groups]] in the UK maintain separate patrols or troops of Girl Scouts.
* Other scout organizations in the UK have separate girl-only scout sections, including some of the Scouts in Exile associations (see Scouting and Guiding in the United Kingdom).
* There have been units of the [[Girl Scouts of the USA]] in the UK.
[[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] in the UK is just one specific organization using scout training and the [[Scout Method]] while there are other organizations of Girl Scouts.

Bduke, Your time, many decades ago, in [[The Scout Association|The Boy Scouts Association]] (UK) may have been a narrow, sheltered experience in which you were blithely ignorant of these other scout organizations in the UK or it may be that you're determinedly in denial and pushing a POV. Please stop. Linden would condemn you for holding to and pushing a belief rather than seeking knowledge.

[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 13:04, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

I see nothing specific in the OP and their subsequent posts.   Just a bunch of confusing vague accusations against editors.  <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:49, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

One note on terminology in the USA
*The official term "Boy Scouts" (note capitalization) no longer exists in the USA. It previously had two different specific meanings: 
:*The official name of the organization "Boy Scouts of America".  This changed to "Scouting America" February 2025 and that prior organization name is now gone.  
:*The official name for a (previously boys-only) flagship ''program'' of the (then-named) Boy Scouts of America (for roughly 11-16 year olds)   This changed to "Scouts BSA" a few years ago when girls were allowed into that ''program''. Some programs (including this one) are organized by single-sex units.       
*The official term "Girl Scouts" (note capitalization) ''does'' exist in the USA and is a girls' organization. 
*The descriptive phrases "girl scouts" and "boy scouts" (note lower case) are just descriptive phrases.  
*Scouts BSA specifically avoids using the term "girl scouts" to refer to any of it's members, presumably because doing so would get the Girl Scouts angry. 
Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 16:00, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

North8000 suggests because one organization changed its ''formal'' or proper name (proper noun), that a term somehow "no longer exists" and is "gone" in the USA. A very organization-centric notion of the world! Good luck convincing the people of the ''land of the free'' that they can't choose their own usage of the terms and are to follow the dictates of one organization. The term "boy scout" remains very much in widespread common use in the USA, as elsewhere. The suggested capitalizations seem vague and are not consistent with widespread usage in dictionaries and encyclopaedias. What can be taken from North8000's contribution is that the term girl scout is very much in use in the USA (contrary to HiLo48's claim above), which suggests the term boy scout will also remain in common use.

@North8000, if you are going to make disparaging remarks such as "''I see nothing specific in the OP and their subsequent posts.   Just a bunch of confusing vague accusations against editors.''", have the sense to not make specific responses, which make your claim quite apparently disingenuous.

[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 23:41, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

::I didn't (and still don't) know what your specific point or specific proposal is.   My post was providing information in an area that is confusing to many and relevant to this discussion. There is nothing "disingenuous" about doing that. I'm sure that many people will continue to write the lower case descriptive term "boy scouts" in the USA. And any reference to the organization prior to Feb 2025 could also rightly be written as  Boy Scouts (upper case). An some will erroneously write "Boy Scouts" to refer to the name of the current organization. Finally, to clarify explicitly what I thought was implicit, I meant that the them "Boy Scouts" (upper case)  longer exists as the name of a current organization. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:06, 15 June 2025 (UTC)    

@North8000, Your claim that you don't know what my point or proposal is seems disingenuous when you specifically responded by addressing my point. My point and proposal is, as the discussion heading clearly indicated, as Erp had already identified below and your edits address, that the terms boy scout, girl scout and scout, should be in the lead paragraph.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 01:08, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:I apologise for my sloppy writing. Of course Girl Scouts exist in the USA. But Boy Scouts don't. On another tangent, can you please have a read of [[Wikipedia:Indentation]] and follow its advice. Indenting makes these conversations much easier to follow. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 00:52, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

::The intro sentence before the IP's  change was "'''Scouting''' or the '''Scout Movement''', is a youth movement using the Scout method, which became popularly established in the first decade of the twentieth century."  They wanted to change it to "'''Scouting''' or the '''Scout Movement''', <u>consisting of '''Boy Scouts''' and '''Girl Scouts''' or '''Scouts''',</u> is a youth [[social movement|movement]] using the [[Scout method]], which became popularly established in the first decade of the twentieth century." Underlined is what was added)  The issue is that if you add the terms "Boy Scouts" "Girl Scouts", or "Scouts" than you should also add "Girl Guides" even if you just want to cover the terms used among English speakers (and not counting, Cub Scouts, Brownies, Rangers, etc).  
::BTW it would really help the IP and the rest of us if the IP would create a proper account and use it.  The IP could acquire privileges because of an established  editing record; we wouldn't have to depend on guessing continuity when the IP changes. [[User:Erp|Erp]] ([[User talk:Erp|talk]]) 01:25, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Girl Guides are already mentioned in the lead paragraph!

As Girl Guides are specific organizations and a subtype of girl scouts but with a distinct name, the mention of Girl Guides is, appropriately, separate and in a statement adding more detail than the leading sentences.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 01:53, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

:Where are Girl Guides a subgroup of Girl Scouts? Certainly not in my country. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 03:30, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Girl Guides can be <u>''classified''</u> as a subtype of girl scout organization. They provide girls with scout training using the [[Scout Method]]. In this and other articles on scouts, Girl Guides are mentioned and in this and other articles on scouts and Girl Guides, Girl Guides are identified as scout organizations. The histories in those articles all indicate that Girl Guides developed out of the existence of girl scouts, making them a subtype. In the Talk Page discussions on Girl Guides, other editors, including some in this discussion, argue that Girl Guides are synonymous with Girl Scouts. If so, they are a subtype by name.

Bizarrely, the article on the [[Scout Movement]] currently mentions "Girl Guides" in the introduction lead paragraph but does not mention "boy scouts", "girl scouts" and "scouts"![[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 01:08, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:Girl Guides may have developed out of the existence of girl scouts in some places, but not in Australia. Where are you? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 02:23, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Another adamant Wikipedia editor who doesn't know their subject. @HiLo48, What of the [[Girl Peace Scouts]] in Australia that existed years before [[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] established branches in Australia? Some patrols and troops of Girl Scouts in Australia subsequently registered as Girl Guides but some of the last recorded troops were in Rosalie in Brisbane, Queensland in the 1920s and Lindisfarne in east Hobart, Tasmania in 1935. See [[Scouting and Guiding in Australia#History]], [[Scouting and Guiding in New South Wales]], [[Scouting and Guiding in Victoria]], [[Scouting and Guiding in Queensland]] and [[Scouting and Guiding in Tasmania]], which refer, not only to (1) the existence of Girl Scouts in Australia years before The Girl Guides Association established branches in Australia but to (2) the existence of those Girl Scouts in Australia before the Girls Guides even existed anywhere in the world and to (3) some Girl Guide Association branches in Australia having grown out of the Girl Scouts!  '''''BOOM!''''' Time for HiLo48 to leave the discussion!

:And it's time for you to learn some manners and stop talking about other editors!!! That's not how we work here at Wikipedia. If you know so much about [[Girl Peace Scouts]], how about improving that minuscule article which says none of the things you just claimed. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:17, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

"'''''we''''' ... here at Wikipedia" - So inclusive and nice of you to define it to include yourself but not others! Basic manners might include checking claims before posting them. Obviously, you did not read all the articles on [[Scouting and Guiding in Australia]] and its states. E.g. "Most of the remainders of the Girl Peace Scouts joined the Girl Guides in the 1920s", "Girl Peace Scouts ... were later joined by ... The Girl Guides Association", "In ... Australia, today's Girl Guides had their origins as Girl Peace Scouts", "Miss Marjorie Frances Grimes (1895–1956), of 'Tarragindi', south Brisbane, was instrumental in the formation of today's [[Girl Guides]] organisation. She became the honorary secretary on 15 November 1919 of the committee to establish the Girl Guide Movement in Brisbane.[17] Grimes was the leader of the Tarragindi Girl Scouts (formed circa 1915), which became one of the first registered companies to the new state organisation in 1920." '''''BOOM!''''' [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 04:47, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:So fix the article!!! Get a username and learn to indent!!!

[[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] and [[Girl Guides]] articles clearly state that the founding of the first Girl Guides in the world was a response to the existence of Girl Scouts, therefore ''''all''''' Girl Guides developed from Girl Scouts. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|the founding of the first Girl Guides in the world was a response to the existence of Girl Scouts]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 04:07, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:I think the above is incorrect. The first Girl Guides were in the UK after some girls tried to join Scout Troops. As a result, B-P's wife started the Girl Guides. The term Girl Scouts has not been used in the UK. [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 04:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Then what have the [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association#British Girl Scouts|British Girl Scouts]] been? What of the Girl Scouts in the UK mentioned in:
* [[1909 Crystal Palace Scout Rally]] - "Several hundred <u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u> also attended, including one group under their Patrol Leader Marguerite de Beaumont. They dressed in the Girl Scout uniform as given in the Scout handbook, called themselves Girl Scouts, were referred to as Girl Scouts by the media and others and several hundred girls were registered as Boy Scouts.[1] Girls had been part of the Scout Movement almost as soon as it began."
* [[Girlguiding#History]] - " In 1909, a number of <u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u> attended the Boy Scout Rally in Crystal Palace Park[23]" and
* [[Girl Guides]] - " girls joined with Boy Scouts or formed themselves into patrols of "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>".[1] Many Girl Scouts registered with the Boy Scout headquarters. In 1909, there was a Boy Scout rally at Crystal Palace in London. Among the thousands of Scouts at the rally were several hundred Girl Scouts".

Brian, we've been over this same debate and material several times over many years, including above and just recently on the [[Talk:Girl Guides|Girl Guides Talk page]]. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 05:22, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:Just found this - "The Girl Guides movement was founded in 1910. It was established by Robert Baden-Powell and his sister Agnes Baden-Powell, in response to girls wanting to participate in the Scouting movement, according to the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts." [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 04:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

* "''The Girl Guides'' ... ''was founded in 1910.''" - '''I agree.'''
* "''It was established by Robert Baden-Powell and his sister Agnes Baden-Powell''" - '''I agree.'''
* "''It was established ... in response to girls wanting to participate in the Scouting movement''" - '''I agree'' but you've chosen a specious interpretation when the statement is ambiguous as to whether "wanting to participate in the Scouting movement" meant they did or didn't participate and become scouts and silent as to whether or not some girls became Girl Scouts. So, this quote doesn't establish anything for this discussion. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 11:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:User 115.42.13.151 should have said "that the founding of the first Girl Guides in the world was a response to the existence of Boy Scouts, not Girl Scouts. [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]])

No Brian, read the above.  The Girl Guides were founded in response to the existence of "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>". Baden-Powell's 1909 edition of ''Scouting for Boys'' includes details on "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>" and a description and depiction of uniform for "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>".  There were Girl Scouts in Britain / the UK before Girl Guides existed. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 05:22, 18 June 2025 (UTC) 

:You are only partly right. The Girl Scouts you are mentioning were girls who tried to join Scout Troops and in some case they sort of succeeded, but it was never B-P's intention to have girls in Scout Troops. That is why he asked his wife to start what became Girl Guides. See: "The Girl Guides movement was founded in 1910. It was established by Robert Baden-Powell and his sister Agnes Baden-Powell, in response to girls wanting to participate in the Scouting movement according to the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts." - Our history - World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 05:52, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Oh Brian, You're arguing against reality. Please read the above listed articles. What do you say of the [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association#British Girl Scouts|British Girl Scouts]]? More denial?

If Robert Baden-Powell didn't want Girl Scouts, how come:
# his 1909 edition of ''Scouting for Boys'' includes details on "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>" and a description and depiction of uniform for "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>", and
# there are numerous mentions of "<u>'''Girl Scouts'''</u>" in 1908 and 1909 editions of ''[[Scouting magazine (The Scout Association)#The Scout (1908–1966)|The Scout'' magazine]]?
B-P's writing supported Girl Scouts but he changed his mind following conservative criticisms. However, there were already Girl Scouts.

As stated in the above listed articles, like the boys, early Girl Scouts formed their own patrols and troops, found their own leaders and some even registered with The Scout headquarters. They were every bit as much scouts as the Boy Scouts who did the same.

Brian, even more embarrassingly, you then claim Baden-Powell "''asked his <u>wife</u> to start what became Girl Guides''". Well, even you acknowledge that the Girl Guides were founded in 1910 but Baden-Powell didn't marry and have a wife until 1912! You're old and confused. Please think about why you're no longer employed as an academic and why you're in an aged care home. <u>''Please''</u> stop editing. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 09:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

I found this - "The Girl Guides movement was founded in 1910. It was established by Robert Baden-Powell and his sister Agnes Baden-Powell, in response to girls wanting to participate in the Scouting movement according to the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts." The comments below are now not needed. [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 06:09, 18 June 2025 (UTC):-

::Yes, I'm certain that's what's really being discussed here. Girls "joining" Scout troops when girls could not officially do so. They were Scouts in the eyes of most, but were girls, so Girl Scouts. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 06:18, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

[[Groupthink]]? [[Confirmation bias]]?

Thank goodness HiLo48 is "certain". That is '''''so''''' reassuring, after their failed claims that there had not been Girl Scouts in Australia and denial that some of [[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] branches in Australia derived from Girl Scouts (see discussion and links above). Even Tim Jeal's 1989 biography ''Baden-Powell'' and Henry Collis, Fred Hurll and Rex Hazlewood's 1961 ''B.-P'.s Scouts - an official history'' refer to Girl Scouts and them being registered. HiLo48 resorts to the qualification "''officially''" but, if [[The Scout Association|The Boy Scouts Association]] was not formed until 1910, how were any scouts before then ''officially'' scouts in its, HiLo48's or BSduke's opinions?  What made or still makes someone ''officially'' a scout?

@HiLo48, What do you say of the [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association#British Girl Scouts|British Girl Scouts]]? More denial? [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 09:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:Until you behave correctly as an editor, following [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:NPA]], and take other advice from more experienced editor over matters such as indenting and acquiring a Username, I see no point in further participation here. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 09:54, 18 June 2025 (UTC).

A more experienced editor? How would HiLo48 know when they also criticize me for not having a username and being an IP? Yet another baseless assertion like HiLo48's failed claims about there not having been Girl Scouts in Australia and [[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] branches in Australia not being derived from Girl Scouts (see discussion and links above). Given HiLo48's claim that there weren't Girl Scouts in the UK and weren't Girl Scouts in the UK before Girl Guides were founded, it seems like they want to evade responding to the direct question about the [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association#British Girl Scouts|British Girl Scouts]]. They also seem to want to evade explaining their notion of what makes someone an <u>'''''official''''</u>" scout. I've gone to lengths to try to narrow debate by clearly acknowledging points on which I agree but other editors just serial argue in denial, never acknowledge when their assertions are shown to be wrong and resort to criticisms about indenting, not using a username, etc.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 11:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

:This is going all over the place.  Please state a specific proposed edit. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:11, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

::Very instructive thread for interested yet-passive editors. [[User:Augmented Seventh|<span style="font-family:Curlz MT; color:DarkOrchid; text-shadow:blue 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">Augmented Seventh</span>]][[User talk:Augmented Seventh|🎱]] 18:39, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

The proposal is and always has been clear, so clear you specifically responded to it (as previously discussed above). [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 04:07, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
:If it's clear to you what your specific proposal is, it be pretty easy to state it. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

::I think their proposal is to have this article be about "Scouts"  but not "Girl Guides" (except as an offshoot or alternative name) while the [[Girl Guides]] article should be about "Girl Guides" and not "Girl Scouts".   See for instance the dispute template message they added on the latter article "The dispute is about the suggestion that Girl Scouts are Girl Guides and inclusion of content on Girl Scouts". [[User:Erp|Erp]] ([[User talk:Erp|talk]]) 02:23, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Erp, You seem to deliberately misrepresent what I propose, after you had no difficulty properly identifying what I propose in your edit of 15 June 2025 (above), where you stated:
::"''The'' [IP] ... ''wanted to change'' [the intro sentence] ''to "Scouting or the Scout Movement, <u>consisting of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts or Scouts</u>, is a youth movement ..., which became popularly established in the first decade of the twentieth century.''"
That is all that is proposed, as you previously properly identified. But now, in your most recent edit (of 19 June 2025, immediately above), you make the very different and false claim that I propose that this article should not include Girl Guides. Read the discussion above and it is abundantly clear that I consider that Girl Guides are a type of scout, doing scout training and using the [[Scout Method]] and, being girls, they are a type of girl Scout but with a distinct name, and therefore Girl Guides belong in this article. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 10:38, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:People might agree with you if you make a clear proposal rather than complaints. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:48, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

The proposal is very simple and has been abundantly clear. Include the well-known terms Boy Scout, Girl Scout and Scout in the article lead sentence. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 10:38, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:And why not include the at least as well known term of "Guide"?  I note also all the other terms used in other languages.   Your proposal clutters the lead sentence unnecessarily.  I'm also very aware of your proposal in the [[Girl Guides]] article which draws an artificial division between "Girl Guides" and "Girl Scouts" (note for instance 'Padvindsters' used by some organizations which has been translated as both Girl Guides and Girl Scouts).   An explanation later in the article about names individuals are called could describe Scout, Guide, or similar names in other languages sometimes prefixed by girl, boy, cub, sea,.... [[User:Erp|Erp]] ([[User talk:Erp|talk]]) 13:14, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Erp, this is an English language Wikipedia article, so "''the other terms used in other languages''" are not relevant. I accept your comment about the term Girl Guide but I again note that there is already a whole sentence about Girl Guides in the lead paragraph.  You indicate that my proposal "clutters the lead sentence" but I previously put the edit in a subsequent sentence and even that was reverted.  So, summing-up your comments, (1) include "Girl Guides" in what I propose and (2) don't add the terms in the lead sentence.  Agreed.

The distinction between Girl Guides and Girl Scouts is very apparent.  Girl Guides chose to be distinct by name, at least. Girl Guides are a type of female or girl Scout but not all Girl Scouts are Girl Guides or follow the program distinctions and/or use the same emblems as Girl Guides. Therefore, Girl Scouts can't all be grouped with Girl Guides as editors have done with the [[Girl Guides]] article.  Trying to group them but distinguish or qualify the grouping only makes the nonsense more apparent and leads to more misinformation.  Relate them under the Scout Movement and other Scout articles by referring to Girl Scouts and then referring to those called Girl Guides.  Simple and logical.

As to Padvindsters, yet again, it quite obviously translates as Pathfinders, not 'scouts' or 'Guides'.  More specifically, Padvindsters is the feminine form which translates as Girl Pathfinders.  Just refer to pathfinders or boy or girl pathfinders without trying to contrive and extrapolate to other terms and acknowledge that "Pathfinder" organizations are part of the [[Scout Movement]]. Simple and logical.[[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 03:52, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:115, you've gone so deep and blatantly into edit warring that if anybody reports you you will certainly get blocked. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)  
:I'm all for listing some of the major types of scouts (including the ones you listed) in the lead. But for many reasons not in the lead sentence. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

:I tried something,   What does everyone think?  <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:56, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

North8000, you state you're "all for" listing major scout terms "''including the ones'' [I] ''listed''" "<u>''in the lead</u> ... but not in the lead sentence''. Agreed.

:The problem here is that similar terms are used in different ways in different countries. Initially in UK, the Scout movement was for boys only and the Guide movement was for girls only. Later, the Scout movement in UK admitted girls, but the Guide movement continued to be girls only, so there were Girls Scouts and Girl Guides. The USA called the movement for boys, Boy Scouts, as other countries did but called the movement for girls, Girl Scouts, not Girl Guides. This is just looking at two countries! [[User:Bduke|Bduke]] ([[User talk:Bduke|talk]]) 00:23, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Oh Brian, you're getting it all fuddled again!  You're confusing the [[Scout Movement]] and [[The Scout Association]]. The Scout Movement, in its early years was a hugely popular movement (not an organization) and was in the public domain for existing youth organizations and anyone to take-up, including girls who became Girl Scouts.  Baden-Powell even made amendments to his 1909 edition of ''Scouting for boys'' to refer to girl scouts and set out a suggested uniform for them and wrote articles in ''[[Scouting magazine (The Scout Association)#The Scout (1908–1966)|The Scout]] magazine'' referring to Girl Scouts.  It was only when Baden-Powell formed [[The Scout Association|The Boy Scouts Association]] in 1910, (a distinct organization of the [[Scout Movement]], that he excluded girls and he then set up [[Girlguiding|The Girl Guides Association]] for girls.  However, Girl Scouts already existed and other UK Scout organizations continued with Girl Scouts, e.g. [[British Boy Scouts and British Girl Scouts Association#British Girl Scouts|British Girl Scouts]] and other Girl Scouts patrols and troops continued independently.  You're also wrong about the USA, where Juliette Low's organization was initially called the [[Girl Scouts of the USA#Girl Guides of America|Girl Guides of America]] but soon merged with earlier and numerically larger Girl Scouts organizations and changed its name. [[Special:Contributions/115.42.13.151|115.42.13.151]] ([[User talk:115.42.13.151|talk]]) 03:52, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:I was attempting to include common examples on names. I think that 115's change after my edit made it problematic by being too narrow / specific, but I didn't find it severe enough to outright revert. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 03:00, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
::I did as they were cluttering the lead again.  I did some other editing to emphasize the early existence of Cubs and Rovers and added the also early (and female aimed) Brownies and Rangers plus Sea Scouts (very early). Emphasizing early explains why we use these examples and leads into the expansion later in the article. We might want to double check whether I have the right names. [[User:Erp|Erp]] ([[User talk:Erp|talk]]) 05:56, 20 June 2025 (UTC)