View source for Talk:School of Engineering and Applied Science (Columbia University)

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==Subheadings==
The subheadings in the history section sound like advertisement for the school. This is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry. I vote we scrap the subheadings. The history section is not exceedingly long and so doesn't necessarily warrant them. What do others think? - [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]] 05:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
* I changed the headings and deleted the last paragraph of the history section to make them read like a more professional entry in an encyclopedia, not a promotional pamphlet. Seriously, though, I don't think we need so many subheading in the history section at all. The section just isn't that long! However, in keeping with the structure of the [[Columbia University]] entry, I have left them. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]] 12:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you may want to go over the article again, since your post is from 2006.--[[User:Zoroastrama100|Zoroastrama100]] ([[User talk:Zoroastrama100|talk]]) 22:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Summary of the departments ==
I think that info makes the article a bit more cluttered, if we look at other Universities' pages they don't often have so much detailed information on the first page. Might we add another page called "Departments of SEAS" (or something like that), and house that data there?
* I agree. The departments, programs and majors are a bit too much. All this information is surely available at the school's website. Summary paragraphs are all that is needed. [[User:Mat334|Mat334]] 11:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
* I also agree. It's just cluttered info that is available on the school's website.
* Not easily available, and many of these department heads also have dealings in larger subjects. --[[User:Ctrl build|[[User:Ctrl_build|Ctrl_build]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ctrl_build|talk]]</sup> [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|15px|]]]] 05:25, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
<s>**I REITERRATE MY PREVIOUS STATEMENT, IT TOOK ME 4 HOURS TO FIND THAT DEPARTMENT INFORMATION THAT IS SO DISPARATELY PLACED. --[[User:Ctrl build|[[User:Ctrl_build|Ctrl_build]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ctrl_build|talk]]</sup> [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|15px|]]]] 21:18, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)</s>
*** Sorry, was looking at an old version....thought everything was reverted. My bad --[[User:Ctrl build|[[User:Ctrl_build|Ctrl_build]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ctrl_build|talk]]</sup> [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|15px|]]]] 21:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Images and recent changes==
Can we make sure to get the licenses for these images? It really looks like they were simply taken from a related website without permission. Perhaps somebody currently on campus can snap a few nice shots, especially it being summertime, and then donate the images to Wikipedia.

The recent changes are pretty good. I think we can still improve on the formatting of the page. I'm very happy to have that ugly heading about page merger gone from this page. I really don't think that we need separate articles for SEAS and the School of Mines since the latter's history is discussed in the SEAS article. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]] 16:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The photos are nice but none has anything to do specifically with the engineering school. One of the photos shows only Butler Library, which is the main university library building but which does not contain the engineering library. Another shows Butler and the buildings on either side of it -- two first-year residence halls and the student activities center. SEAS undergrads use these facilities but so do those from Columbia College, and they outnumber SEAS students by about 3 to 1. The third picture shows Low Library, which is mostly the home of the central administration. It has no particular connection to SEAS. Including one of these photos along with some SEAS-specific images would be fine, but relying solely on these three seems wrong.
* There were a number of SEAS-related photos nabbed from a website and without proper licenses. These were subsequently deleted. All it would take is for somebody with a decent digital camera to snap a few shots, which I may do when back in NY. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]] 19:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

==Many errors ==
This article is replete with errors; I'll try to make time to edit it but that may take a while. Some examples:
* The school does not award degrees in physics or mathematics. It does offer degrees in ''applied'' physics and ''aplied'' mathematics, but those fields fall within the applied sciences, which the article lists as if it were a distinct subject.
** The issues of degrees has been addressed. The school offers degrees from various fields of engineering and the two applied sciences offered in SEAS. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]]
* The High-Beta Tokamak (HBT) is not "new" as the article says; it dates back at least to 1994. Three other Tokamaks preceeded it going back many more years.
** The HBT is now part of the paragraph on the facilities in Plasma Physics. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]]
* Patents for inventions and discoveries made at the school belong to the University and not the school itself.
* While Columbia may have a "reputation for innovation in nuclear engineering", it closed the nuclear engineering program several years ago. The "General Electric nuclear fission reactor" mentioned in the text was dismantled long ago and its space converted into offices and labs.

::My mistake -- I have learned that the reactor is still intact years after the N.E. program closed. It seems the cost of dismantling and removing it without damaging the building (the reactor is near the bottom of a 13-story tower) would be prohibitive.
* The school has less than 200 faculty and not the "several hundred" claimed in the table at the end. Even if non-tenure-track faculty are added the total would not be several hundred.
* The table lists the total enrollment as 1200 to 1400, but this is only the undergraduate enrollment. There are also graduate students working toward masters, professional and doctoral degrees, though I don't know how many offhand.
* The quoted enrollment figure of "approximately 425 per class" is too high (it's actually about 325) and is inconsistent with the total enrollment figure of 1200 to 1400.
* I'm reasonably sure there are no "reactors at Nevis Labs", and even if there were they would belong to the physics department, which operates Nevis, and not to the engineering school.
** Nevis has no "reactors" that I am aware of, but rather a cyclotron. I doubt the cyclotron is still in use, since its potential should long have been exhausted with the advent of much more powerful cyclotrons worldwide. Nevis specializes in the construction and management of high-tech equipment for advanced experiments. I believe they also do data analysis. [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]]
* I believe at least one of the two wind tunnels has been dismantled and replaced by more modern lab space.
* The list of alumni -- which omits the engineering school's three Nobel laureates and the father of the nuclear navy but includes the founder of Pete's Wicked Ale -- needs serious revisions.
* The admissions section focuses only on the math SAT, but Columbia's engineering students have high verbal scores as well; on the 1600-point version of the test the middle 50% of engineering students scored between a 1440 and a 1530, which means the lowest possible mid-range verbal scores were from 640 to 730. The actual mid-range scores were higher, though, since most students did not get perfect 800s in math and therefore had higher verbal scores to make up for the shortfall.

There are many other inaccuracies and omissions, and the writing style is poor. As I said, I'll tidy it up when I have time.
:: You forgot to sign your comment, whoever you are.

:: Also, I was always under the impression that SEAS was not one of the top-ranked engineering schools. I actually laughed out loud when I read the comparison to MIT. Prove me wrong (with a citation).

:::No, SEAS is not very highly-ranked, and this article just comes off as sad (for example the comment about how SEAS is known for its nuclear engineering is just sad if the program was really shut down). It badly needs a rewriting. [[User:Rm999|Rm999]] 06:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

::::SEAS was 20th in the most recent U.S. News rankings, though I don't think rankings are terribly useful. The school clearly has improved quite a bit over the past several years by opening major research centers and recruiting such faculty as [[Al Aho]] and [[Steve Bellovin]] in computer science, [[Aron Pinzcuk]] and Nobel Laureate [[Horst Stormer]] in applied physics, [[Emanuel Derman]] in operations research, etc., but it has a way to go. The part about the school passing Cornell and UCLA made me cringe too; it may happen but only after the school gets a lot more space. Fortunately Columbia's campus expansion will provide that space, but not for several years.

:: Also, mightn't there be a mention of the controversy about the renaming? Based solely on hearsay, I know a lot of graduates who were not happy with the total rebranding based on a mere $25 million donation. [[User:Aroundthewayboy|Aroundthewayboy]] 23:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Columbia got the $26 million right away, while the larger naming gifts other schools accept are usually paid in installments over the course of several years. The Fu Foundation gift had a higher present value than nominally much larger naming gifts received by other schools. SEAS's relatively small size was also a factor since, all else being equal, naming rights for a smaller school are less valuable than those for a larger one. Besides, the school was not as strong then as it is now (and it still isn't among the very best), so it couldn't expect as much money for naming rights as a more prestigious school would command.

:::Keep in mind also that this donation came in 1997. An equivalent gift in 2006 currency would probably be in the neighborhood of $40 million. And whatever portion (most of it, I think) went into the school's endowment has grown at a considerably greater rate given the returns Columbia has been earning since 1997.

:::The additional money had a significant impact, as reflected in the expansion of the student body as well as the recruitment (and retention) of some very fine faculty.

:::I think there is more displeasure about the name itself than the dollar amount. I've heard several alums say they would have preferred "Z. Y. Fu School of Engineering and Applied Science" to "Fu Foundation School . . .".

===Manhattan Project===
We know that Columbia University played a key role at the start of the Manhattan Project, but can anybody confirm the involvement of the engineering school? [[User:BeardedPhysicist|BeardedPhysicist]] 17:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Some of the professors who worked on the Manhattan project in Columbia were professors at Columbia's engineering school, either adjunct or tenured. They conducted research through the university's engineering school. And few of them also became deans of the school. One obvious example is John R. Dunning--[[User:Zoroastrama100|Zoroastrama100]] ([[User talk:Zoroastrama100|talk]]) 23:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Merging School of Mines ==
I think that it should be merged as it is very short and could fit in under a History section within the fu article. --'''[[User:R6MaY89|<span style="color:#000;">ʀ6ʍ</span>]]<u>ɑ</u>[[User talk:R6MaY89|<span style="color:#000;">ʏ89</span>]]''' 11:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:I support the merging of the two articles. The School of Mines page should direct to the Fu Foundation SEAS page. [[User:Matanariel|Matan]] 21:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I merged the two documents; I hope no one is offended. I also made the many other changes. Does anyone like them? [[User:Panboy414|Panboy414]] 06:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

== Who Was [[Henry Krumb]]? ==
It seems scandalous that such a prestigious school as [[Columbia University]] has no text whatsoever, within Wikipedia--not even a "crumb"--devoted to the great copper miner, [[Henry Krumb]], for whom the [[Henry Krumb School of Mines]] is named. Can someone begin a [[Wikipedia:Stub|stub]] on him?

Yours truly, [[User:Ludvikus|Ludvikus]] 04:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

==Admissions==
I'm tempted to delete the entire admission section, which is IMO is tripe written by someone who obviously goes there. The entire section is devoted to explaining why there is a public opinion that it is not as good as the actual school. Fu is a great school, but this article just makes it look desperate. [[User:Rm999|Rm999]] 06:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I made quite a few changes to the admission section with many up-to-date statistics. Hopefully it brings some dignity to the school--SEAS deserved the overhaul. [[User:Panboy414|Panboy414]] 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, to the person(s) who overhauled this article (whether a solitary effort by Panboy, or a group)...many thanks!

==[[Henry Krumb School of Mines]]==
There is nothing on this [[part]]
of [[Columbia University]].
Can you [[Wikipedian]]s solve this issue/question?
Yours truly,
[[User:Ludvikus|Ludvikus]] 21:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
: Until recently there was an article at [[Columbia University School of Mines]], but it was a stub and was merged with this article (not by me, but by my suggestion). Today, Krumb is basically a department within SEAS and as such (in my opinion) doesn't really merit it's own article -- I don't think you'll find an article on any other single department at Columbia. I think that any information about Krumb in its days as a full blown school of the university belong in the history section of this article. However, as you note above there is zero information on Wikipedia about Henry Krumb himself, ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_link.png
Internal linknd he very well might merit an article.
-----
:: It would be nice to know who you are! Why not sign your comment?
Anyway, I'm not asking for [[article]] on the [[school]]. But if there such a place at [[Columbia University]], how about at least one sentence on it--[[Henry Krumb School of Mines]].
::: Regarding [[Henry Krumb]]--since he was a great [[United States|American]] [[copper]] [[miner]]--it would be nice to [[honor]] not only with an [[article]],
but also with a recognition of the institution whose was given toi it to [[honor]] him.
:: So. Can you tell me (1) who you are, (2) what the above is, as an [[institution]], and (3) who can write an article on [[Henry Krumb]].
Yours truly, [[User:Ludvikus|Ludvikus]] 22:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

:I apologize for not signing above; that was merely an accidental omission. These days, the "Henry Krumb School of Mines," as I understand it, is basically synonymous with the Earth and Environmental Engineering department within SEAS. I commented that I don't think it needs an article because [[Henry Krumb School of Mines|you created one]]. I agree that this article should mention it, but I'm not sure at what point the Krumb name was attached, so I'm not sure where it should be mentioned. As for who can write an article on Krumb himself, well, that would be whoever has the time and inclination to go read up on the man. [[User:Bgruber|Bgruber]] 03:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

::HKSM was originally the name of Columbia's department of Mining, Metalurgy and Materials Science (MMMS); it received this name in the 1860s after Henry and LaVon Krumb made a large donation. Several years ago the materials science program was moved; it is now housed in the applied physics department, though it is technically an interdepartmental program. The remainder of the MMMS department was renamed the department of Earth and Environmental Engineering (EEE). The HKSM name covers both EEE and the materials science program, along with the Earth engineering center. See the HKSM homepage[http://www.seas.columbia.edu/earth/hksm/default.htm].
==Fair use rationale for Image:Columbia SEAS.GIF==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:Columbia SEAS.GIF]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in '''this''' Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:Columbia SEAS.GIF|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->

[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 02:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

== NPOV dispute ==
I noticed this based on some statements in the first paragraph - The chemical engineering program is rated highly. Additionally, the admissions section seems like an ego booster for those that have attended. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.83.162.235|128.83.162.235]] ([[User talk:128.83.162.235|talk]]) 19:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I've gone over and addressed the POV issues in the admissions section (some [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=School_of_Engineering_and_Applied_Science_(Columbia_University)&diff=350145071&oldid=350106755 here]), but after looking through the article, there are is quite a bit of POV wording. I've tagged the article for now, but I may come back and revise some sections.—[[User:DMCer|<span style="color:#008000">'''DMCer'''</span>]][[User_talk:DMCer|<span style="color:#800000">™</span>]] 04:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Citation for department rankings ==
There is no valid citation for the department rankings included in the rankings section of the article except for Financial Engineering department.