View source for Talk:Saber-toothed predator

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|vital=yes|
{{WikiProject Cats|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Mammals|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Palaeontology|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Extinction|importance=mid}}
}}

{{Archives|age=90|bot=lowercase sigmabot III}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo=old(90d)
| archive=Talk:Saber-toothed predator/Archive %(counter)d
| counter=2
| maxarchivesize=75K
| archiveheader={{Automatic archive navigator}}
| minthreadsleft=5
| minthreadstoarchive=1
}}

== Split or rename again ==

So there has been no progress in solving the issue with this article, which is that the title Saber-toothed cat is not inclusive enough to cover what is currently the article's scope, which is all saber-toothed synapsid predators that ever lived. So what to do? Rename the article, or make a new one where info about the niche as a whole can be covered, and the info about non-feliform saber-tooths be removed from here? And in that case, what should the new article be called?  [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 18:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

:[[Saber-toothed synapsid predator]]? And a split does sound reasonable. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 19:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
::Could be, though it is a bit wordy. If we want to be even more specific, it could also be therapsid, though with both examples, few readers would understand what we're talking about. But yeah, it is pretty difficult to come up with a concise title that also covers exactly what we want. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 19:10, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
: Gorgonopsids are not saber toothed cats. When most people are thinking about sabre tooth cats they are not thinking about gorgonopsids. Gorgonopsids are already given appropriate mention in the text, it is not necessary to clarify further. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 19:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
::The problem is, only [[machairodonts]] are saber-toothed cats. Thylacosmilids, nimravids, "credodonts" etc., are not cats either, and that's already at least half what this article covers. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 19:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
:::Do we want to amend it to "sabertooths"?--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 19:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
::::It probably needs something more, because there are various other animals with saber-teeth, such as ''[[Tiarajudens]]'', which were not predators, as well as fish with that name, see [[saber-tooth]]. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 19:59, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
: Sabretooth ecomorph? —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 10:27, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
::I proposed that once, but seems it was too esoteric. Maybe "saber-tooth predator niche" would be the most understandable. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
::: Unless there's a common name in the scientific literature that we can use, I say we go for that. Speaking of which, "Sabertooth Cat" is generally used for [[Smilodon]] & [[Machairodontinae]]. I say we have "Sabertooth Cat" redirect to the latter & add a template for the former. [[User:Monsieur X|Monsieur X]] ([[User talk:Monsieur X|talk]]) 07:42, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
::::I agree but I have a feeling many would be against that, because it's such a popular term (as was shown by earlier discussions about this). But at best, it could only be a redundant disambiguation page otherwise. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 13:43, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
::::::My head hurts just reading those as they don't make any sense. It should either be the earlier mentioned "Evolution of sabertooth morphology" or "saber-tooth predator niche". If you look up Sabretooth cats anywhere else, it's always Smilodon or related felids. It's just this page that's the problem! [[User:Monsieur X|Monsieur X]] ([[User talk:Monsieur X|talk]]) 20:40, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::::I'll try to compile a list of possible inclusive names, then we can maybe have a vote soon. And then afterwards we can figure out what's the best thing, to just move this article, or make a new one. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 21:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

*Here are some suggestions for more inclusive article names, some taken from previous discussions. Perhaps we could add votes below them. Feel free to add more. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
*[[Saber-toothed predator]]
::I think this one would be the most understandable for layreaders. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
::Seems to be the most simple and easily understandable version so I think this would be the best option. [[User:Ichthyovenator|Ichthyovenator]] ([[User talk:Ichthyovenator|talk]]) 23:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
*[[Saber-toothed predator niche]]
*[[Saber-toothed ecomorph]]
*[[Saber-tooth (predator)]]
*[[Saber-tooth (ecomorph)]]
*[[Saber-toothed synapsid]]
*[[Saber-toothed therapsid]]
*[[Saber-tooth ecomorph]]
*[[Saber-toothed carnivore]]
*[[Saber-tooth morphology]]
*[[Saber-tooth (morphology)]]
*[[Evolution of saber-tooth morphology]]
::I say we go with this one as there are plenty of "Evolution of" articles. With a title like that, it could go more into the details of convergent evolution in sabre-tooth predators. [[User:Monsieur X|Monsieur X]] ([[User talk:Monsieur X|talk]]) 08:52, 24 October 2021 (UTC) 
:::How does [[Evolution of saber-toothed predators]] sound? If not that, simply [[Saber-toothed predator]] sounds good to me. Both titles are fairly approachable to a layperson, aren't wrong, and don't get into unnecessary specifics. If, hypothetically, there were a weird Triassic archosauromorph that had strong functional convergence on machairodontines, it would make as much sense to mention as gorgonopsians. Conversely, there aren't any saber-toothed sauropsid predators we specifically want to exclude, AFAIK. As such, I don't see much benefit to specifying a clade name in the title. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 23:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Yeah, feel free to add it to the list too. I'm fine with any title, as long as it is more inclusive. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 23:21, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::Overall I think [[Saber-toothed predator]] is our best option. It's short, to the point, understandable to a layperson, and a perfectly adequate encapsulation of what this article is about. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 23:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
*[[Saber-toothed synapsid predator]]
*[[Evolution of saber-toothed predators]]
*[[Sabertooth predator]]
::"Sabertooth" (hyphens and UK/US spelling variable) seems to be the closest thing there is to a standard name for this thing. Obviously, that's taken by the disambiguation. MOS says that parenthetical disambiguation is only to be used if there is not a satisfactory natural disambiguation. A skim of Google Scholar finds "sabertooth predator" and "saber-toothed predator" to be used occasionally; none of the other phrases turn up many results on Google Scholar. I'm leaning slightly towards "Sabertooth predator" or "Sabretooth predator" over "Saber-toothed predator" or "Sabre-toothed predator", because I think the unhyphenated version comes across more clearly as a noun phrase with a specific meaning (a predator with dental adaptations implying morphofunctional convergence with machairodontines), rather than simply "a predator that has sabre teeth", and as such is a more encyclopedic concept. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 00:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::Any preferences regarding "sabertoothed" vs "sabertooth"? [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 00:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::: Google scholar returns 32 results for [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22sabertooth+morphology%22&btnG= "sabertooth morphology"] and variations with hyphen, "ed", and/or UK spellings brings the total to about 100, mostly in the correct context, e.g. evolution of the sabertooth morphology, acquisition of the sabertooth morphology, transitional sabertooth morphology, suite of sabertooth morphology, etc. It clearly referring to the concept, a morphology associated with a functional adaptation, rather than being used as an adjective for a carnivore or predator. So I lean towards Sabertooth morphology or Evolution of sabertooth morphology. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 09:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::Huh. I'm not sure how I missed that; maybe I misspelled it when I searched it. I suppose it comes down to the question, do we want the article to be about the animals that share this adaptation, or do we want it to be specifically about the anatomical trait itself? "Sabertooth predator" seems more appropriate for the former and "sabertooth morphology" more appropriate for the latter. "Sabertooth predator" strikes me as slightly more layperson-friendly as well. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 19:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
*I would propose to simply rename to [[Sabertooth]], but keep the article restricted to synapsids. The disambiguation page can be kept to point to the rarer usages of the term, including  [[sabertooth fish]]. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 11:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::Are sabertooth predators clearly the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] over the Marvel supervillain Sabretooth? I think "Sabertooth" or "Sabretooth" would be the best title for this article, ''if'' we could get a consensus that these animals are the primary topic. The "enduring notability and educational value" criterion points clearly to sabertooth predators. "Smilodon" and "Saber-toothed cat" both far exceed "Sabretooth (character)" in page views. However, googling "Sabretooth" turns up results mostly related to Marvel. I'm inclined to think that sabertooth predators are, indeed, the primary topic, but there might be some pushback from people who aren't paleontology enthusiasts.  [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 19:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::I don't think we can use the standard google search to establish encyclopedic relevance comparing a comic character with a scientific concept (the former will usually have more hits, which does not mean it is more relevant). I therefore don't see a problem here. I dislike "sabertooth predator", as that somehow implies that there are sabertooths which are not predators? "Predator" here seems redundant. "Sabertooth morphology" sounds not much better to me, because "morphology" is just about the shape, and our article should include function as well. As you already suggested, I think that simply [[Sabertooth]] would be the best choice. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 19:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::Yes, the problem is it's not entirely up to us. I think we should try and get "Sabertooth" as the article title, but if that ends up getting rejected, we'll need to discuss alternatives. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 19:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::As an alternative, I would personally go for [[sabertooth (ecomorph)]]. By the way, only the spelling "Sabretooth" turns up the comic thing in Google for me. The spelling "Sabertooth" is all about science. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 19:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::I would prefer [[Sabertooth predator]] to [[Sabertooth (ecomorph)]]. The latter is less clear to a layperson, and it uses parenthetical disambiguation, which Wikipedia policy regards as less preferable than natural disambiguation. And there are sabertooths that aren't predators—that's kind of the entire point of the sabertooth disambiguation page. Anyhow, I would suggest we put up a move request (or whatever the procedure is) to move [[Saber-toothed cat]] to [[Sabertooth]], with [[Sabretooth]] as a redirect, and move the current [[Sabretooth]] page to [[Sabretooth (disambiguation)]]. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 19:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::I don't see it: the comic character seems partly animal, so it is partly predator as well? See also the separate meanings of "predator": [[wikt:predator]]. The character is derived from the real thing to start with. And in my opinion, [[Sabertooth predator]] is incorrect because that would imply an article about the animals, not the feature (which I think you already pointed out above). The article won't contain much information about the animals that are unrelated to the feature, so that title might be misleading. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 20:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::There are several other entries on the disambiguation page that aren't predators. I assume we aren't going to rewrite the article to only be about the teeth, right? The article as it stands is clearly about a category of predatory mammal, and not about a specific anatomical trait ''per se''. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 20:33, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::The article would be about the ''ecomorph'', not about a ''polyphyletic group''. At the very least, [[sabertooth predator]] would include the [[sabertooth fish]] as these are definitely predators, so this title won't work for this reason alone in my opinion. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 21:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTJOURNAL|not a scientific journal]], so we should avoid jargon such as "ecomorph" except where necessary. The term "sabertooth predator" has been used in the scientific literature as a name for the ecomorph in question (e.g. [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/paleobiology/article/abs/morphological-convergence-of-the-preykilling-arsenal-of-sabertooth-predators/E197BBE86606E3F5F2AC3CE14674CB96] [https://peerj.com/articles/9346/] [https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/457/45731230004.pdf]). [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 23:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::Also, this conversation is purely semantics until we've determined if we can lay claim to the page title "sabertooth" or not. What do other people think of that? [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 23:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::[[Sabertooth predator]] seems to be an ''ad-hoc'' combination rather than an actual defined term. We could also choose [[Sabertooth carnivore]] (which has just as many – just a handful – hits on Google Scholar) or some similar random combination. But both are not widely used, and even when they have been used in some papers doesn't mean that they are the right terms for our article. But yes, we both wanted to go for "sabertooth" anyways, let's see what others think. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 23:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::I think having some kind of word after "sabertooth" would be good just to make it more understandable for layreaders, but yeah, it's difficult to figure out exactly what. It was pointed out earlier that "sabertoothed carnivore" could be misleading, as it might imply [[Carnivora]], any thoughts on that? Also, we have to keep in mind a lot of non-expert editors will likely join in when the move proposal is made, so making it as "attractive" as possible could avoid the failure of the last request. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 10:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::But if it refers to [[Carnivora]], it would be [[sabertooth carnivorans]], right? This is actually another ''ad hoc'' term that is in use. The problem remains that such ''ad hoc'' terms lack a generally accepted definition. While "sabertooth carnivoran" is unambiguous, I don't see how "sabertooth predator" or "sabertooth carnivore" could exclude the [[sabertooth fish]] when such definition is absent; when we do this, I fear it is [[WP:synth]]. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 10:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I'll try to look through [[Mauricio Antón]]'s Sabertooth book later today to see if he used any term other than just "sabertooths", I think it's one of the few popular books that cover the group as a whole. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 10:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Yes, I think a secondary source is what we need here. Language allows to form compound words ''ad hoc'' (extreme example: "giant marsupial predatory sabertooth"), but that does not make them part of the scientific terminology that should be defined in a dictionary or encyclopedia. If Antón writes something that defines the term, like "sabertooth predators are an ecomorph …", or if he indicates that he adopts the term from another source, e.g. "which have been called sabertooth predators", that would be a very solid argument in my opinion. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 10:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
{{od}}Just looked, and Antón does seem to either use "sabertooth/sabertooths" or "sabertoothed predators" interchangeably, here are some excerpts from the first chapter "what is a sabertooth?": 

*"Today sabertooths are a familiar kind of extinct creatures for scientists and for many laypersons, but in the early days of paleontology, not even scientists knew that such a thing as a sabertoothed predator had ever existed."

*"The identification of the concept “sabertooth” with Smilodon has inevitably masked one of the main facts of sabertooth history: diversity. This book deals with sabertoothed predators, a broader concept than that of the sabertoothed cats. While the latter indeed belonged to the cat family (including animals like Smilodon itself and closely related genera such as Megantereon and Homotherium), many sabertooths did not, and some of them would look quite uncatlike to a modern observer." 

*"Sabertoothed predators include the following groups: 1. The gorgonopsians, an extinct group of Permian therapsids, or mammal-like reptiles. 2. Thylacosmilid sabertooths, an extinct family of South American predaceous marsupials. 3. Machaeroidine sabertooths, members of the Creodonta, an extinct order of meat-eating placental mammals related to but different from the true carnivorans (members of the order Carnivora). 4. Nimravid sabertooths, members of the extinct carnivoran family Nimravidae. 5. Barbourofelid sabertooths, members of the extinct carnivoran family Barbourofelidae. 6. Felid sabertooths, or true sabertooth cats, extinct members of the living carnivoran family Felidae. The last three families were members of the Feliformia, a major division of the order Carnivora that includes the modern cats, civets, mongooses, and hyenas.". [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 11:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
::Thanks. This makes it clear enough that "sabertooth predator" is more than an ''ad hoc'' term, and it is clearly defined in this secondary source. This should be cited as evidence in the move proposal. I don't have any more objections. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 11:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
:::Cool, I'll wait for a week, so more editors can have a look. But yeah, kind of stupid I didn't just look at the book before... [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 11:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

*Wouldn't "sabertoothed predator" also include [[sabertooth fish]] and ''[[Monosmilus]]''? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;">&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User:Dunkleosteus77]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Dunkleosteus77|push to talk]]&nbsp;</span> 18:18, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::Technically, perhaps, but now we at least have one authority that uses the term specifically for the therapsid predators. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 09:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

== New Theory ==

A new paper by Paul Barrett puts the cat among the pigeons. <ref>{{cite journal |doi=10.1038/s41598-021-00521-1|title=The largest hoplophonine and a complex new hypothesis of nimravid evolution|year=2021|last1=Barrett|first1=Paul Zachary|journal=Scientific Reports|volume=11|issue=1|page=21078|pmid=34702935}}</ref> According to this study the barbourofelids are nimravids after all. It does suggest that they were a separate lineage developing the sabretooth morphology, but from a lineage of conical-toothed nimravines. There is another paper looking at their place in the broader Carnivoraverse (Barrett et al, 2020).<ref name="BarrettHopkinsPrice2021">{{cite journal | last1 = Barrett | first1 = Paul Z. | last2 = Hopkins | first2 = Samantha S. B. | last3 = Price | first3 = Samantha A. | title = How many sabertooths? Reevaluating the number of carnivoran sabretooth lineages with total-evidence Bayesian techniques and a novel origin of the Miocene Nimravidae | journal = Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology | date = 2 January 2021 | volume = 41 | issue = 1 | issn = 0272-4634 | eissn = 1937-2809 | doi = 10.1080/02724634.2021.1923523 | pmid = | url =https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02724634.2021.1923523?journalCode=ujvp20 }}</ref> I haven't access to the full paper yet, but the phylogenetic analyses is available in the supplementary materials. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 16:26, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

== Requested move 10 November 2021 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> '''MOVED''' to [[Saber-toothed predator]].  Consensus that the scope of the article is not (and should not be) specifically about cats.  No consensus on the (ENGVAR-related) issue of whether saber-toothed should be hyphenated; as such the ''status quo ante'' style holds.  No prejudice against speedy re-nomination to adjust the hyphenation.  [[User:力]] (powera, [[User talk:力|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/力|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 23:13, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
----

[[:Saber-toothed cat]] → {{no redirect|Sabertoothed predator}} – The current title is too specific, though this article has been about all predators with saberteeth since its beginning[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saber-toothed_cat&oldid=6305676], most of which are not cats, or have ever been referred to as cats. Per the discussions above, "sabertoothed predator" is the most inclusive title, and is a term that has been used for the entire group in at least one book about the subject (Antón 2013). The term "sabertoothed cat" can either become a redirect here, or instead redirect to the family [[Machairodontidae]], which includes the only cats with saberteeth. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 11:25, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' the same proposed move was made before see [[Talk:Saber-toothed cat/Archive 2#Requested move 7 September_2016]] and closed with no consensus. — [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 19:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Not my favourite choice, but I can accept the reasons for going with Antón, as this article fits well with his statement that "Sabertoothed predators include the following ..." . I think the title should be plural as its not about one predator, but Wikipedia has a strange preference for singular titles. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 11:46, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::I have no preference in that regard, though we should probably follow similar articles. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 12:00, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose''' change from "Saber-toothed" to  "Sabertoothed" as it would appear to be an [[WP:ENGVAR]] issue. American English often concatenates words that in British English remain seperate. A search on ["saber-toothed" site:ac.uk] returns hundreds of pages with that spelling. As to whether to change "cat" to "preditor" I have no opinion. -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 13:36, 10 November 2021 (UTC)</s> struck out opinion — [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 14:59, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
::Ok, but that is something that can be easily changed if we decide on it, or added as an option here, and is not really the point of this move request, which is the scope of the article. This spelling was chosen because it seemed from a survey above that it was more prevalent in scholarly sources. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 13:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::I think that "saber" is actually the American spelling (the other spelling is "sabre"). Shouldn't we follow the American English way of concatenating words if we use the American spelling? --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 13:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::{{edit conflict}}  The article currently uses American spelling. I'd prefer English spelling and sabre-toothed, but the important change is cat to predator to reflect the scope of the article as most sabre-toothed predators are not true cats. This has been discussed on and off for ages and lack of consensus on the exact form (sabre or saber, hypen or no hyphen, -ed suffix or not, predator or carnivore, etc) has led to no change when there is clear consensus that the current title is misleading. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 13:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::But in that case, [[WP:Engvar]] says we have to stick to the original spelling used when the article was created, which was American.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saber-toothed_cat&oldid=6305676] Unless there is a special British connection to the subject, which is hardly the case here. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::::Or if we assume the hyphenated version is British, then "saber-toothed" is a hybrid that should not have been used to begin with ("sabre" is the UK spelling, as Jens pointed out). [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::::: The American usage includes sabertooth and saber-toothed. We can use sabertooth (after Antón) as a noun or saber-toothed as an adjective (e.g. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/saber-toothed Merriam-Webster]). If you look at the two references in the section above they use both. 
::::: I voted to support your proposed name change as we can spend forever arguing over the best choice from all the variants. The bottom line is that this article is not all about cats so the current title is misleading. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 14:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::I agree, the important thing is to get this moved to a more inclusive title, as the below comment shows it is already leading to misinformation. Any details about how to form the name can be discussed later. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:58, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::You might want to respond to this, {{u|PBS}}. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 18:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::Have you even read the discussion? That is not the common name of what this article is currently about, which is the problem. The current name only applies to those sabertoothed predators which are cats, which already have another article, [[Machairodontidae]]. For your oppose to have any merit, you'd have to demonstrate that the term "sabertoothed cat" has been used for any of the other groups covered in this article by any reliable soures. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 14:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::Yes, I have read it. My comment stands. Who on earth uses the term "sabertoothed predator"? -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 16:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::::As was noted in the discussion above, several sources. The WP:COMMONNAME is "Sabertooth", but that needs to be disambiguated: ergo, "sabertoothed predator" or some variant thereupon, which is a term that sees some use and more accurately reflects the article content than "saber-toothed cat" does. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 17:11, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::And again, "sabertoothed cat" is not used as a common name for all these animals outside this very Wikipedia article. In fact, it appears to have been an invention of whoever created this article, and doesn't reflect the literature. The sources use the terms "sabertooth" and "sabertoothed predator", as has been demonstrated above. This oppose is based on nothing that can be verified by the literature, and the main point here is that the article needs to be moved away from any title with the too specific word "cat" in it. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 17:38, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::: The use of sabre-toothed cat has a long history. Nimravids and Barbourofelids were originally considered cats and when it was realised they were not the term false sabre tooth cats was introduced. So a historical case could be made for an article on sabre-toothed "cats". It wouldn't include the others, though. Those were probably added following Anton, who dropped the cat in his book title. I think everyone agrees its better if cats is removed from the title, given the scope of the article, but there are so many variants. At least we seem to be moving towards a consensus on American spelling. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 18:23, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The spelling "Sabertoothed" is compatible with [[WP:Engvar]] as pointed out above, and while "Saber-toothed cat" is more common, it is a different (less inclusive) topic. The [[WP:COMMONNAME]] of the group that this article covers is either "Sabertoothed predator" or the simple and less precise "Sabertooth". --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 14:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. As per the discussion above, "sabertoothed predator" or a variant thereupon is a term that is in use, more accurately reflects the article content than "sabertoothed cat" does, and which, unlike "Sabertooth", avoids problems with disambiguation. Ultimately, I have no strong opinion on which of the many variants of "sabertooth", "sabre-toothed", etc. is preferable. "Sabre-toothed cat" could redirect to either this page or Machairodontinae; I think that this page might be preferable, as somebody searching the term might not be aware that there are multiple unrelated groups of sabertooths. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 17:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
**Upon further thought, I would specifically prefer "saber-toothed predator", but regard the specific spelling of "saber-toothed" as a minor semantic point compared to the cat vs. predator issue and would not oppose a move on the grounds of spelling of "saber-toothed" alone. As per WP:ENGVAR, we should keep the American spelling of "saber"; moreover, the most famous sabertooth, ''Smilodon'', is endemic to the Americas, suggesting marginally greater geographic relevance to the US than UK. Google Scholar turns up more results for "saber-toothed" than "sabertoothed", "saber-tooth", and "sabertooth" put together, and approximately equal results for "saber-toothed predator" (15) and "saber-tooth predator" (16), but fewer for "sabertooth predator" and "sabertoothed predator". It appears that the hyphen should stay. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 17:54, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::If that's acceptable US spelling too, I might change the request to the hyphenated version just to get it moved quicker (one oppose is strictly due to this minor detail). [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 18:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
::::I can't confirm that it's strictly correct from a perscriptivist perspective, but it's clearly widely used so I think the point is moot. [[User:Ornithopsis|Ornithopsis]] ([[User talk:Ornithopsis|talk]]) 18:56, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::+1 for "saber-toothed predator" (with hyphen) if that is indeed more common. --[[User:Jens Lallensack|Jens Lallensack]] ([[User talk:Jens Lallensack|talk]]) 20:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' move to drop "cat" from the title - not descriptive of the current article's scope. Neutral about alternatives in terms of spelling and punctuation. ''[[User:Lythronaxargestes|Lythronaxargestes]]'' ([[User talk:Lythronaxargestes#top|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Lythronaxargestes|contribs]]) 19:57, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Sabertooth cats already have their own article, this article should reflect the whole topic of the sabertooth predator ecomorph. Minor semantics about the proper name of "sabre/er toot(ed)" are not what the thrust of the request is about, and can be dealt with later. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 20:58, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Hyphen and what to do with saber-toothed cat ==

So now that the move to a more inclusive title has finally been completed, we're left with two remaining issues: whether "saber-toothed" should be hyphenated or not, and whether [[saber-toothed cat]] should redirect here, or to [[Machairodontidae]]. I personally don't have strong feelings about either issue, but I think it could be argued that it is maybe nice for layreaders that saber-toothed cat redirects here, as it will give them more general information. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 08:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
: Congratulations. A move finally got approved after many attempts. I think the hyphen is appropriate as the term "saber-toothed" is serving as an adjective of predator. The hyphen is not necessary when used as a noun as in sabertooth sensu Anton.
: [[Saber-toothed cat]] should redirect to [[Machairodontidae]]. Perhaps a hatnote could be added pointing to saber-toothed predators. —&nbsp;<span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Jts1882|Jts1882]]&nbsp;&#124;[[User talk:Jts1882|&nbsp;talk]]&nbsp;</span> 08:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
::Certainly would be the most accurate, and would drive the point home. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 09:26, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2025 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Saber-toothed predator|answered=no}}
Suggest excluding deltatheroideans from this article. Inclusion looks to have been OR. There are no occurrences (of any variants) of the term "saber-toothed" in any of the linked articles ([[Deltatheroida]], [[Deltatheridiidae]], [[Lotheridium]]), nor in the original paper cited here and in the ''Lotheridium'' article. See also previous discussion of this question under [[#Which mammals have the saber-tooth morphology?]] at the top of this page. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:560:4D16:1800:B4F3:309A:8E35:FE21|2A02:560:4D16:1800:B4F3:309A:8E35:FE21]] ([[User talk:2A02:560:4D16:1800:B4F3:309A:8E35:FE21|talk]]) 12:33, 16 April 2025 (UTC)