View source for Talk:Ring modulation

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{{WikiProject Electronics |importance=Low }}
{{WikiProject Electronic music |importance=Mid }}
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{{merged-from|Ring modulator|date=2017-06-05}}
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== Wrong topic? ==

Shouldn't there be a separate article about the use of effects called 'ring modulation' in modern sound equipment? It seems to me that this article should be about diode ring modulators, not something that takes the name from them.

:Agreed.  This page should be something like "Ring Modulation (Electronic Music)", linked from a page that just covers the technical aspects of ring modulators from the purely electronic point of view.  The current article, being the only one in Wikipedia on the subject, gives a heavily biased view of ring modulation which many readers may not pick up on and thus be falsely lead into believing that ring modulation is only extensively used in electronic music, which it most definitely is not.  [[User:Nejo17|Nejo17]] ([[User talk:Nejo17|talk]]) 14:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

::[[Frequency mixer]] covers the topic from the purely electronic and mathematical point of view. We are covering ''Ring Modulation (Electronic music)'' here but there is no other related article that wants to call itself ''Ring Modulation'' so the ''(Electronic Music)'' bit is unnecessary. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 19:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

== Proposed merge ==
{{Archive top |result=Merge completed 5 June 2017}}
See discussion at [[Talk:Ring modulator]].  [[User:Yahya Abdal-Aziz|yoyo]] ([[User talk:Yahya Abdal-Aziz|talk]]) 09:45, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

:Note: although it is traditional to discuss proposed merges on the talk page of the "merge to" article, thgis is one of those exceptions where there is an existing discussion at the "merge from" article talk page. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 13:33, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

==John McLaughlin==

I added McLaughlin's use on Visions of the Emerald Beyond.  Truth be said, I don't know enough to be ABSOLUTELY SURE I'm correct, but my Dad always said the strange effect on the track "On the Way Back Home to Earth" was a ring mod, and I believe him, especially as he said and I've read others who have said "the ring modulator is not very musical", and it seems to me McLaughlin is "trying to tame" the effect in the song.  I also thought the best place to put the reference before the reference to Davis's Aghartha, as it is chronologically right b4 it.  Not sure having it as a separate paragraph was warranted, but that's what I did.[[User:Slarty1|Slarty1]] ([[User talk:Slarty1|talk]]) 22:23, 29 March 2018 (UTC)


A Google search of "ring modualator Visions of the Emerald Beyond" seems to confirm quite adequately that it is a ring modulator.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Slarty1|Slarty1]] ([[User talk:Slarty1#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Slarty1|contribs]]) 22:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== New diagram ==
{{multiple image
 | align = right
 | direction = vertical
 | upright = 0.75
 | image1 = Ring modulation sine waves 2 and 3.png
 | caption1 = newer version: multiplication of the sine waves
 | image2 = Sum and difference of sine waves 2 and 3.png
 | caption2 = predecessor: combination tones of the sine waves
 | image3 = Sum and difference of frequencies of sine waves 2 and 3.png
 | caption3 = alternative: combination tones of the frequencies of the sine waves
}}

Problems with this diagram are under discussion: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Ring_modulation_sine_waves_2_and_3.png#Sum%2Fdiff_and_multiplication]. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 19:59, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

:The discussion should probably be moved here. [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] ([[User talk:Hyacinth|talk]]) 21:23, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Because many people get confused about audio ring modulation I would encourage everyone involved in this discussion to read what Bob Moog had to say about it:
* [https://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/on-synthesizers-amplitude-and-ring-modulation Bob Moog on Synthesizers: Amplitude And Ring Modulation]
Also helpful is this article from The Synthesizer Academy:
*[http://synthesizeracademy.com/ring-modulator/ Ring Modulator]
For those with circuit design experience, this may help:
* [http://synthesizeracademy.com/wp-content/uploads/ring-modulator-schematic.jpg Ring Modulator schematic]

The key feature of ring modulation (also known as balanced modulation) is that the output contains the sum and difference of the two inputs without the original inputs, which are canceled out. Also note that one or both inputs can be above the audio range, in which case only the lower sidebands are heard. 

Now here is something quite interesting. Look at this image from The Synthesizer Academy:
* http://synthesizeracademy.com/wp-content/uploads/ring-modulator-sidebands-only.jpg 
That's an actual ring modulator with inputs at 500 Hz and 1000 Hz. Note how it differs from the images on the right. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out why...   :)   --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 23:09, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

:"To help visualize all this, let’s run our two sine waves from the previous lesson through a ring modulator and see what the scope tells us about the output waves and frequencies:...[http://synthesizeracademy.com/wp-content/uploads/ring-modulator-sidebands-only.jpg]@[http://synthesizeracademy.com/ring-modulator/]...You can see in the spectrum where the two sidebands are present just like with amplitude modulation, but the big carrier frequency spike that was in the middle is gone!" [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] ([[User talk:Hyacinth|talk]]) 04:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

:Note that the current images only show one repetition of the frequency on 1, while the image in the Academy article shows 24. [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] ([[User talk:Hyacinth|talk]]) 10:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

{{Ping|Kvng}} Notice the third image. [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] ([[User talk:Hyacinth|talk]]) 00:33, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

:The new top image (Ring modulation sine waves 2 and 3.png) is showing a ring modulator. I don't know the purpose of retaining the other (Sum and difference of sine waves 2 and 3.png).
:I'm not convinced these time-domain representations are particularly instructive. Perhaps a frequency domain representation along the lines of [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aufw%C3%A4rtsmischer_Zeitsignale_und_Spektren.svg] would be better. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 00:51, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

== Double Sentence? ==

The sentence "Multiplication in the time domain is the dual of convolution in the frequency domain, so the output waveform contains the sum and difference of the input spectral components. For the basic case where […]"appears two times shortly after one another in slightly modified versions. Is this intended, or is this essentially a copy-and-paste-error (a left-over of the merging of pages)?  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ruediger.kupper|Ruediger.kupper]] ([[User talk:Ruediger.kupper#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruediger.kupper|contribs]]) 19:04, 13 December 2020 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{resolved}}
:I find only one occurence of "Multiplication in the time domain" in the article. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 19:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

== [[Modulator]] article, and the MC1496 ==

There is a suggestion that there should be an article [[Modulator]] instead of a redirect to [[Modulation]].  This article seems to include both theory and implementation. Also, it seems to be about doubly-balanced mixers in general, implemented with a diode ring or not. These days, likely implemented as a single IC, such as the MC1496. The actual reason to ask, is that I thought about starting the [[Modulator]] article with the ring modulator. Needs to start somewhere! [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 22:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
:"A ring modulator is an electronic device for ring modulation." This is such a fascinating sentence. It is obviously true, but not very helpful. Surely the combined power and intellect of wikipedia can do better. [[User:Wastrel Way|Wastrel Way]] ([[User talk:Wastrel Way|talk]]) Eric