View source for Talk:Prelude in C-sharp minor (Rachmaninoff)

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==Title==
This article is not wrongly titled: [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles|Manual of Style: Classical music titles]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Nomenclature|Classical music nomenclature]].  The hash character is not a formal text representation of a sharp.  --[[User:Mordant21|Mordant21]] 22 May 2005 4:39 (UTC)

True, I'll remove the notice. I'm not so sure about the '-' though. Is it C-sharp or C sharp? --[[User:Missmarple|Missmarple]] 07:42, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

:At [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Classical music titles]] it is suggested to use a hyphen.  --[[User:Mordant21|Mordant21]] 23 May 2005 2:30 (UTC)

::Indeed. In Wikipedia, names of musical keys are spelled with a hyphen and the mode in lower case ([[MOS:MUSIC]]); the title for this work should be [[Prelude in C-sharp minor (Rachmaninoff)]]. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 01:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

==Can we get a recording?==

Rachmaninov's works are out of copyright, right? It would be nice to have a recording in the article. This guy here has what sounds to my untrained ears like a competent performance:

http://www.hi.is/~ymir/music/

His copyright notice sounds like maybe he could be persuaded to release this file under the GFDL. If anyone else feels this would benefit the article then I encourage you to make an enquiry.

- [[User:Haukurth|Haukurth]] 16:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

That guy's recording is painful. It completely breaks down as soon as the work gets difficult. If we do decide to put up a recording, we should find a better one. We don't want people to go "no wonder Rachmaninoff hated it" because I think it's truly a great piece, it just exasperated the composer. --[[User:24.7.97.75|24.7.97.75]] 05:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

--- Ummm... I am almost done learning this piece and am going to preform it at my school's arts festival. I'll see if I can record it, and I would allow it to be posted here. And, unlike the guy at the above link, I can actually play it when it gets hard...
[[User:Lunasspectos29|Lunasspectos29]] 15:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

:That's great! I haven't uploaded music before, but just in case, maybe [[Wikipedia:Media]] will be of help. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 18:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Rachmaninoff's own early acoustic Edison recordings should be out of copyright by now.  We could post them as well. [[User:Grover cleveland|Grover cleveland]] 19:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

:Where can we find that? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

--- I made my recording, but the person recording it screwed up and didn't record the first 20 seconds... oh well. However, the Edison recording is available here: [http://www.nps.gov/archive/edis/edisonia/classical.htm http://www.nps.gov/archive/edis/edisonia/classical.htm] [[User:Lunasspectos29|Lunasspectos29]] 14:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
::Well, I just finished playing this at a big concert... I could record it if I had something to record it with. '''<span style="color:#FE474B;">♥</span> [[User:Fredil|<span style="color:#9932CC">Fr</span>]][[User Talk:Fredil|<span style="color:#6A5ACD">ed</span>]]<span style="color:#4169E1;">il</span>''' 23:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Fredil Yupigo|Fredil Yupigo]] ([[User talk:Fredil Yupigo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fredil Yupigo|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::I will have it finished by December/November- I'll gladly record it. [[User:Panther991|... -Panther]] ([[User talk:Panther991|talk]]) 02:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

==First two measures==

Could someone who has a Sibelius music writer program other than the demo (the only version I have) perhaps put down the first two notes + the first complete measure? - Or I can scan the music I have and upload it here...just let me know. —[[User:CliffHarris|<span style="font-family:Times;color:blue;cursor:crosshair;">CliffHarris</span>]] (-[[User talk:CliffHarris|<span style="font-family:Times;color:blue;cursor:crosshair;">T</span>]]|[[Special:Contributions/CliffHarris|<span style="font-family:Times;color:blue;cursor:crosshair;">C</span>]]-) 23:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
: This piece is out of copyright:  you should be able to upload the whole thing.  [[User:Grover cleveland|Grover cleveland]] 00:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

== Documenting the "story" of Prelude in C-sharp minor? ==

I have read that the music "tells a story" but I can no longer locate the source I once had or find it anyplace else (books; record jackets; CD inserts; etc.).  I don't have the music handy so I don't know the actual tempos, but here goes.

It starts (opening chords = church bells) with the slow (largo?) procession of a funeral march to the cemetery.  The casket is interred.  The fast (presto?) movement is then the desperate scratching of the person in the casket trying to get out!  The next movement (moderato?) is the recession of the mourners heading back to town or going their separate ways.  The final chords are the church bells again.

Has anyone else read that or a more reliable version anyplace?  I don't think that Rachmaninoff endorsed that interpretation but he didn't deny it, either.  
I think he said to people who asked about the meaning of his music that, "It can mean whatever you want it to mean."

Do you think a better, more reliable 'story of the Prelude in C-sharp minor' belongs in the main article? [[User:AdderUser|AdderUser]] 20:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:From what I know, back then, America didn't have proper copyright restrictions, so when it spread to the western world, everyone who got their hands on the music marketed it with all the name and gusto they could. Rachmaninoff characteristically didn't like this piece, and I highly doubt he wrote it to tell a story. [[User:Alton|<b style="color:#808080;font-size:small;">ALTON</b>]] [[User talk:Alton|<span style="color:#808080;">.ıl</span>]] 06:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

::Well, Rachmaninoff only began to not like this piece after it became far too popular. He felt that it was overshadowing his better works. While I would agree that Rachmaninoff probably did not come up with a story for it, as that would not be in his fashion, I would not have been because he didn't like the piece. He prpbably did like it at first, until it became too popular for it's own good. [[User:Lunasspectos29|Lunasspectos29]] 14:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:::For whatever it's worth and if anybody wants to try to track it down, I read the above story on a piano roll box at Steve's Ice Cream between Davis and Porter Squares in Cambridge, MA many years ago.  (Steve's Ice Cream had a coin-op player piano but it and the store are long gone.)  Every time I see piano rolls in a store or on-line listing I check for Prelude in C-Sharp Minor but have not found the story again.  The "It can mean whatever you want it to mean." quote is from a book with musician biographies that I read years ago, the title of which I don't recall and that I cannot cite in detail.[[User:AdderUser|AdderUser]] 00:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I wouldn't advise reading too far into the music to find a story not intended by the composer. I do not think that Rachmaninoff intended for the work to be a representation of some story. '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:black;">bibliomaniac</span>]][[User talk:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:red;">1</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:blue;">5</span>]]''''' 23:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) On the contrary, there is strong evidence that he did have particular themes in mind when composing.  

* [http://facstaff.uww.edu/allsenj/MSO/NOTES/0506/7.Mar06.html This] says: ''Unlike many of his contemporaries, Rachmaninoff was never shy about discussing extra-musical influences on his works, at one point explaining that: "When composing, I find it of great help to have in mind a book recently read, or a beautiful painting, or a poem. Sometimes a definite story is kept in mind, which I try to convert into tones without disclosing the source of my inspiration."''

*In the liner notes to my old Vox LP set of Rachmaninoff’s Piano Music, Vol. 1, played by Michael Ponti, R. D. Darrell writes: ''It is likely that the composer had in mind some kind of “program” or “story” or scene for most if not all of these preludes – as indeed he may have had for most of his works in all forms.  But if so, he was more than usually careful to keep his own notions private so that listeners would be free to create their own imagery if they felt any were appropriate.  In one instance, though, Rachmaninoff was amazed when another pianist, [[Benno Moiseiwitsch]] (whose performance of the long B minor Prelude, Op. 32, No. 10, he had highly admired), remarked that he, Moiseiwitsch, always thought of a certain painting whenever he played this piece – a painting, [[Arnold Böcklin]]’s ''The Return'', which the composer was startled into confessing was exactly what ''he'' had attempted to evoke in music.''

*[http://inkpot.com/classical/rachpfc2moi_app.html Here’s] a slightly different version of the same story: ''The B minor Prelude was one piece that Moiseiwitsch owned for as long as he played it, and was a favorite of his and the composer's. The pianist once asked Rachmaninov over lunch if there were a program for this piece. "To me," Moiseiwitch said, "it suggests a return."  Rachmaninov, who normally kept such matters private, suddenly thrust out an arm and said, "Stop," then put a hand on Moiseiwitch's shoulder and admitted, "It is the return." He then confided that he had written the piece after seeing Arnold Böcklin's painting "The Return" - a picture Moiseiwitch had never seen. Years later, when the pianist finally viewed the painting for himself, he admitted that it matched the mental picture he had carried whenever he had played that prelude.''

So, where does this leave us?  It’s very likely that Rachmaninoff had a specific program in mind when composing the C sharp minor Prelude.  But was it the "buried alive" scenario, or was that from the mind of some later commentator?  And if so, who and when?  It would be good to pin down exactly where the story came from, and when it first appeared in print.  I've had a good look through Google but nothing significsnt came up.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 01:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:Um, yeah, of course he did. That's how Romantic composers (and Neo-Romantic for that matter, which was Rachmaninoff) wrote music- Clair De Lune is about moonlight, and this song is 'flavored' the way he wanted it to be. That's the way most music is written- with something else, an influence, in mind. [[User:Panther991|... -Panther]] ([[User talk:Panther991|talk]]) 02:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
::No argument here.  But can you answer my specific questions?  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] ([[User talk:JackofOz|talk]]) 07:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Btw, the name of the Böcklin painting is "Die Heimkehr", and it's variously rendered in English as "The Homecoming" of "The Return" - see [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Did Arnold Böcklin paint a picture called "The Return"?]].  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">'' ... speak! ... ''</span>]] 20:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

== Huh? ==
Why in the world is an encyclopedia referencing the premiere of this piece from a forum page? I changed the errors in the premiere date, but I think a better reference with a confirmation of the true date be used. If not, then an assumption can be made from other sources. Like say, "this piece was performed in late 1891" or "in mid 1892" or whatever. Just an opinion. [[User:Borninbronx10|Borninbronx10]] ([[User talk:Borninbronx10|talk]]) 02:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

== "Frankenstein" ==

A couple years ago, I removed an edit that claimed Rachmaninoff nicknamed this work "Frankenstein"; this was not confirmed in the cited source (to which this claim had been piggy-backed). This claim reappeared today, citing an online review of a recital that included this piece. Just to be sure, I pulled down the first two books on Rachmaninoff I could reach: ''Rachmaninoff: Composer, Pianist, Conductor'' by Barrie Martyn and ''Goodbye Russia: Rachmaninoff in Exile'' by Fiona Maddocks. The only mention of "Frankenstein" in either book is in reference to the composer's disgust at the film ''[[Frankenstein (1931 film)|Frankenstein]]'', which he walked out of. —[[User:CurryTime7-24|CurryTime7-24]] ([[User talk:CurryTime7-24|talk]]) 17:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)