View source for Talk:Pes

I dont' get why you keep posting your original research all over the place on entries related to meassurements. You're just duplicating the info on your user page. -- &lt; [[User:Drini|drini]] | [[User talk:Drini|&part;drini]] &gt; 20:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

* 1. Its not origional research.
* 2. Its measurements not meassurements, you can't even get that right.
* 3. The articles aren't just about measurements they are about 
:    standards of measure. What the user page covers is the tip of the iceberg.
* 4. Its not duplicated, its reinforced and expanded so anywhere in the 
:    multipage article you can go back and cross reference any specific term
* 5. What you don't get, is that its irrelevant that you don't get it.
* 6. Its nothing personal, not everyone can know everything
:    You would have to invest some time and study the topic
* 7. I don't expect you to make the effort.
* 8. I'm discussing a system that remained intact for over 6,000 years 
:    so it deserves a little respect, so do I.
* 9. You clearly have no clue what I'm talking about.
* 10. [[User:Rktect|Rktect]] 04:00, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Before you delete this again, read it, and see if you can
tell me why it isn't important to discuss the several 
separate and distinct geo-comensurate units as individual
entities co-descended from the same system.
::: ''comment by Rktect''

I'm copying over the notes from the page on the pous. The pous and pes are respectively Greek and Roman feet but need to be treated separately from a discussion on English feet. Greek pous were first established as a standard of measure in the earlu bronze age. Roman Pes were derived from the Pous around the time the Romans began copying the greek orders of Architecture. The discussion in Vitruvious and Normands, Parallels of the Greek Orders of Architecture by Cordingley make this clear. 

What I would like to do with these pages is nail down their points of origin as body measures standardized in proportions by the Egyptian inscription grids. The next step would occur on this page and be to show where the body measures are incorporated with the even older agricultural standards used to measure longer distances into the Greek orders of architecture used for large public buildings which the Romans embraced as canons of pleasing proportion c 300 BC.

1.) The Greeks who settled along the east coast of the Mediteranian Sea were called Peleset by the Egyptians, Phillistines by the Sons of Israel, Phoenicians, Pelegasians, and Punics by classical authors. They called themselves Pele, or Pilli. They lived in what was considered a part of the Egyptians vassalage and their pous was the same as the Egyptian. [[User:Rktect|Rktect]] 02:26, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

2.)The Ionian Greeks used a pous which was the same as the Roman pes.

I haven't linked to Phoenicia because it is iron age and where you really need to get into the pous as a standard is early bronze age. That means Linear A and B, all the early scripts, a few wreck sites, the Phaistos Disk, and the Hittites.

There is evidence for the use of the pous as a standard amongst the Mycenean Greeks, Minoans and the Sea peoples going as far back as the Phaistoes disk and the stories of Sinhue and Wen Amon. 

It would be interesting to discuss the antiquity of the trade links between the Weshesh, Peleset, Tjeker, Danae, Shardana, in the Chalcolithic and bronze age in that context, then move forward through the conflict between Egypt and Kadesh, then bring in the Persians and Phoenicians and Ptolomaic Greeks, and include the influence of Libyan Cyrene but that is simply too much for one page. 

All of the Early Greeks and proto-Greeks are organized by oinkos, gene and phratre way and their languages have interesting parallel developments as regards trade words. 

By the time of Rin Sin we would be following the developments of the copper and tin trade from Syria across Anatolia and the effect of the domestication of the horse, IE languages and blue water shipping. 

The linkage of the pous to the pes is another story and probably pretty close to the one told by Vitruvus involving the ten books of architecture, the Greek orders, their antecedents in Egypt and the idea of geometry being incorporated in the dimensions of buildings.

A bd is an Egyptian foot. (glyphs for foot and hand). 

As to working with other people, try being a little less antagonistic, more discussion, fewer reverts, deletions, tags, and vfds. I don't mind providing the answers to questions or admitting to and correcting some spelling errors.

What I would like is for the pages to fit together so that what is said on one page leads into what is said on another and there are good transitions and links that connect the different pieces together. 

My first page discusses the [[sos]] and the agricultural basis of standards of measure in Mesopotamia which then through trade in metals during the bronze age are diffused to the reast of the ancient near east as definitions of property.

On another page I'm talking about the organization of [[3ht]] or fields and how that results in a length of 100 royal cubits being expanded to a length of 300 royal cubits.

On another page I'm talking about the [[khet]] which is the measure of the side of the field as 100 cubits and how that measure becomes central to the problems of the rhind papyrus.

On another page I'm talking about how the khet, and [[st3t]] become the [[aroura]] and how [[Herodotus]] tells us the Greeks, Persians and Libyans adopt the Egyptian standards of measure so that the st3t becomes the aroura and the [[itrw]] becomes the [[schoenus]].

All of this bears on misconceptions about the stadia of Eratosthenes, Archimedes, Marinus and Ptolomy the accuracy of their values for a great circle and their knowledge of the circumference of the earth being incorporated into standards of measure by the Greeks and Romans.

Still another page talks about the [[pes]] and how the Romans measures derive from the Greeks.  

My expectation would be to spin off of the discussion of "feet" to address standards of measure in different periods and parts of the world. How body measure standards and agricultural standards were linked, and how the iron age trade in metals brought ANE standards of measure to Europe, but all that discussion has now been torpedoed. 

It is hardly suprising that I am a little bit aggravated by the characterization of this as "original research"", "pseudo science" and "nonsense" when anyone who has studied the topic knows better.[[User:Rktect|Rktect]]

===Disputed===
See [[User:Egil/Sandbox/rktect#Articles_under_attack]] -- [[User:Egil|Egil]] 15:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
If you can't give a specific example of what you dispute then the tag doesn't belong here[[User:Rktect|Rktect]] 22:12, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
==references to measures removed from the main page==

Mesopotamian feet of 300 mm are divided into three hands of 100 mm and 15 digits
Egyptian feet of 300 mm are divided into four palms of 75 mm and 16 digits
Persian feet of 300 mm are divided into six ells of 50 mm and 18 digits
Greek feet or pous can be divided into hands or palms and from 15-19 digits
Roman feet or pes are divided into four palms of 74 mm and 16 digits

The Egyptians had derived their bd or foot from the same source but converted the great cubit of 6 hands and 600 mm that the Mesopotamian system was based on from a sexigesimal system divided into 6 hands of 100 mm to a septenary system with a royal cubit of 525 mm divided into 7 palms of 75 mm. The Greek pous was thus three hands of 15 daktylos and 300 mm
while the Egyptian foot was four palms of 75 mm or 300 mm.


Some of the multiples of the pes were the remen, passus, stadium, milliare and degree. Its immediate predecessor was an Ionic Greek Pous of 296 mm
* Other related Greek feet included
* An Ionian Greek Pous has 16 fingers, 12 inches and 4 palms = 296 mm
* An Attic Greek Pous has 15 fingers and 3 hands = 308.4 mm
* An Athenian Greek Pous has 15 fingers and 3 hands = 316 mm

Their immediate predecessors were an Egyptian bd which has 16 fingers, 3 hands, and four palms = 300 mm aMesopotamian ñušur which has 15 fingers and 3 hands = 300 mm

* there were 5/4 pes to a remen of 15" = 381 mm
* There were 5 pes to a passus or pace = 1.48 m
* There were 625 pes to a stadium = 185 m
* In England the stadium was the basis for the 
* English [[furlong]] 
* 1 English furlong = 625 [[fote]] 
* 8 English furlong = 1 English [[Myle]]

* In 1670 Abbe Mouton suggested a primary length standard 
* equal to 1 minute of arc on a great circle of the earth. 
* For this basic length Mouton offered the name milliare. 
* This was to be subdivided by seven sub units with each one 
* to be 1/10 the length of the one preceeding or 

* Milliare = 1 minute of arc = 36524 English feet = 1.11 km
* Centuria =.1 minute of arc = 3652.4 English feet = .111 km
* Decuria = .01 minutes of arc = 365.24 English feet = 111.1 m
* Virga = .001 minutes of arc = 36.524 English feet =11.1 m
* Virgula = .0001 minutes of arc = 3.6524 English feet = 1.11 m
* Decima = .00001 minute of arc = .36524 English feet = .111 m 
* Centesima = .000001 minute of arc .36524 = English feet = 113.25 mm
* Millesima = .0000001 minute of arc .036524 = English feet = 11.325 mm

* Abbe Mouton may or may not have known that 
* The Milos was based on a stadion equivalent to the Egyptian minute of march.
* Sir Issac Newton who attempted to restablish the measures of the ancient world
* from the math problems in Kings 1 may not have known that

* But its certain that Jomard, one of the French savants accompanying Napoleon
* to Egypt entrusted with the measurement of ancient architecture to attempt
* to restablish the correct value of ancient measures by measurement
* knew that because he cites the Greeks who knew that

* "In 1798, Edme-Francois Jomard visited the Great Pyramid 
* as a young savant on Napoleon's expedition. 
* The French had the debris cleared away from 
* the two northern corners of the Pyramid and discovered the corner sockets 
* where the corner casing stones had apparently originally been placed. 
* These were ten by twelve foot mortises, perfectly level, 
* and perfectly level with each other, cut twenty inches into the limestone bedrock. 

* Although, there were still piles of rubble between them, 
* Jomard was able to measure the north side of the base to be 230.902 meters (757.5 feet).
* For the height, he measured each step. They added up to a total of 144 meters (481 feet). 
* By means of trigonometry Jomard calculated a slope of 51* 19' 14", and 
* an apothem of 184.722 meters. Because the casing stones were missing, 
* these figures were both estimates, but the length of the apothem 
* looked virtually perfect in light of various ancient classical texts 
* which Jomard was familiar with."

* Diodorus Siculus and Strabo both claimed that the apothem of the Great Pyramid 
* was one stadium long. The Olympic stadium was 600 Greek feet, and 
* was supposed to be related to the size of the earth. 

* Jomard found the stadium of Eratosthenes and Hipparchus to be 185.5 meters, 
* and thus within one meter of his figure for the apothem. He also found that 
* distances quoted by the ancients in stadia matched the distances found by 
* Napoleon's surveyors, if a stadium was taken to be 185 meters. 

* The ancient stadium was also reported to have been 1/600 of a degree. 
* When Jomard took the length of a degree at what he believed to be 
* the mean latitude of Egypt, 110,827.68 meters, and divided it by 600, 
* he arrived at a stadium of 184.712 meters, which was 
* within ten centimeters of his figure for the length of the apothem! 

* In addition, several Greek authors had reported that the perimeter 
* of the base was equal to half a minute of a degree. 

* This would mean that a degree of latitude divided by 480 should 
* equal the length of one side of the base. 

* Again Jomard used the length of a degree at his mean latitude of Egypt, 
* 110,827 meters, and dividing by 480 arrived at 230.8 meters, 
* again within 10 centimeters of his measured base. 
[[User:Rktect|Rktect]] 01:58, September 1, 2005 (UTC)