View source for Talk:Penal transportation

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==Untitled==
What a whishy-washy description!!  The British convict system of the 18th century was harsh, brutal, cruel, often in-humane and destroyed the lives of many families and communities.  Many, many died in the system, some through the treatment they were subjected to, others by merely being in the system, suffering disease and illness due to their living conditions.

This article should be written to reflect the reality of life as a convict, not just the historical facts.  I have 5 transported convicts as ancestors and after some research I now understand a little more of the lives they were forced to lead.--[[User:Mikeh|Mikeh]] 12:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's one of the few hard and fast rules of Wikipedia that all articles must be presented from a [[neutral point of view]].  No exceptions.  -- [[User:Rogerborg|Rogerborg]] 22:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What I'd be interested in seeing added is some background as to why Britain abandoned transportation. -- [[User:Rogerborg|Rogerborg]] 22:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What I'm interested in is the way convicts have been historicized. And what I'm particularly interested in is the way that the convict history of the US, which is arguably more important (in terms of numbers and time, well whay not society/ culture?) than that of Australia, has been down-played in comparison to Australia. Perhaps this is because American history has been written largely by Americans, whereas Australian history has been largely documented by the 'British'.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.59.97.25|89.59.97.25]] ([[User talk:89.59.97.25|talk]]) 08:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: I agree. Australia has been embarassed by the convict beginnings, but more recently, as the time passes and it is more remote, it has been embraced.  Australia is regarded as initially a convict settlement because the first three fleets were convict based, although on each of them there were free settlers. But in the US, they like to refer to the pilgrms and the Mayflower as the origin.  They gloss over theit convict heritage, which lasted twice as long as Australia's.  They did have indentured convicts, but it was nevetherless a substantial convict colony. It was the American revolution in 1776 whch stopped the flow of convicts, and the British evnetually turned to Australia (NSW) in 1787.  Although it is interesting to note that the worst convicts were not sent to Australia (they needed trades and craftmen to found NSW); and indeed the British are descendents of a greater number of their own convicts (and worse) than Australia. But both nations will try to ignore this. I think the US is more ashamed of their business of stealing human beings and selling them at this time. [[User:Alandavidson|Alan Davidson]] 15:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

==Definition and inclusion of Pacific Solution==

Please check the discussion page on [[Pacific Solution]] [[User:Paki.tv|Paki.tv]] 02:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::please discuss changes here.  [[User:Paki.tv|Paki.tv]] 00:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
This page is vague, badly presented, and disjointed.

==Common Usage==
As much as it pains me, I have to agree with PJ that the edit ''the term is still used to refer to contemporary state actions with regards movement of prisoners, such as extraordinary rendition by the US as well as the Australian Pacific Solution [1].'' is not really well supported, nor does it read well, nor does it belong in a lede, and would read better in other articles.  Reference [1] does not support that it is ''commonly'' used, but rather that a (single) author suggests it an analogy.  Are there additional references to verify that it is in usage (perferably common usage)?  It would be better to have it out of the lede (per [[WP:LEAD]]) and have a note to the effect ''"Commentators have refered to the Pacific Solution as Transportation"'' over in [[Pacific Solution]].  Also we need a source for the Ex Rendition claim and again, it would be better for the reference to be in that article rather than here.  At the moment, it's usage here has a hint of [[WP:POINT|trying to make a point]] rather than making the article more encyclopedic.  '''[[User:Shot info|<span style="color:#800000; font-size:small; font-family:Kristen ITC;">Shot info</span>]]''' 01:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

== Date of abolition ==

I think that transportation was abolished:
#by the Penal Servitude Act 1853, except for offences for which a person could be sentenced to transportation for life, or to a term of 14 years or more, and
#by section 2 of the [http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1857/cukpga_18570003_en_1 Penal Servitude Act 1857], for all offences.

So, why does the article say that it was abolished in 1868? [[User:James500|James500]] ([[User talk:James500|talk]]) 23:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

:The situation seems a little complicated: see [http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1891/cukpga_18910069_en_1 Penal Servitude Act 1891]. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 00:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

==Guantanamo Bay==

I wonder if we should include transportation of [[Al Qaeda]] terrorists to [[Gitmo]] as penal transportation. [[Special:Contributions/192.12.88.7|192.12.88.7]] ([[User talk:192.12.88.7|talk]]) 01:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
:See [[Guantanamo Bay detention camp]] for more information. [[Special:Contributions/192.12.88.7|192.12.88.7]] ([[User talk:192.12.88.7|talk]]) 01:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Edit ==

I've added some background, but the whole article is very British-centric, and more on the French system would be useful. [[User:Chrismorey|Chrismorey]] ([[User talk:Chrismorey|talk]]) 01:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

== Project "Home children" ==

Shouldn't it be part  of this section aswell? 

Taking into account the project ran for over three centuries until the mid fifties of the twentieth century and in all probability encompassed the forced relocation of over 150.000 orphans and non-orphans out of British poor families to the whole Commonwealth?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.91.175.221|85.91.175.221]] ([[User talk:85.91.175.221|talk]]) 10:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{Already done}} [[Home children]] is a link at the bottom under "See also". That topic is related to but not the same as penal transportation, since the relocated children were not convicts. — [[User:Molly-in-md|Molly-in-md]] ([[User talk:Molly-in-md|talk]]) 14:50, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

== Merger with [[penal colony]]? ==

This article seems pretty much duplicative of the [[penal colony]] article. Why exactly are there two separate articles?[[User:Denniscabrams|Dennis C. Abrams]] ([[User talk:Denniscabrams|talk]]) 14:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Some content may be duplicated, but keep in mind that not all penal transportation created or contributed to a [[penal colony]]. A case in point would be Colonial America, which received an estimated 50,000 transported convicts. The majority of these penal transports were shipped to the Chesapeake and most integrated into colonial life post bond period. At no point was the Chesapeake considered a penal colony. [[User:ChessieClio]] ([[User talk:ChessieClio|talk]]) 18:24 31 May 2015 (UTC)

== Improving History elements ==

I am an italian student from a History of English Culture class and as part of my exam I have been assigned this article to improve. I have to add a detailed paragraph about 17th & 18th centuries history and something related to the Transportation Act (1718). [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 20:49, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

I will try to improve the history section by adding details about the transformation of the penal system. Significantly, since 1660 different solutions were tried in order to substitute and avoid the hanging. Transportation was seen as a sort of solution to a problem, an alternative to something too severe, a mitigation of the cruelty and the rigour of the system. Obviously the main subject of my research will be the process of transportation in England since my course is about English culture. I will focus on the causes and agents of change that brought to the choice of transportation as a valid alternative. It was considered a condition included in the pardon and a way to safeguard the community keeping felons away. The aim of this project is to describe the events that built the penal system through a specific and detailed historical section that could add reliability to the article. Starting from the origin of this procedure I will try to create a complete historical panorama of the 17th and 18th centuries focusing on the main events, causes, conditions that contributed to create the initial enthusiasm for this expedient and the difficulties that caused the following decrease. It would be interesting to analyse the process through which the manipulation of the system could prevail on the justice and how the profits could influence a choice. I will pay serious attention to the transportation act of 1718 because it changed the penal system significantly for example by modifying and simplifying the process through which criminals could be directly sentenced to transportation. It will be useful to understand who had the task of transporting felonies and why. Each detail will have an historical hint and I will compile a bibliography of relevant, reliable sources. This is the list subject to change:
 
-	Tim Hitchcock & Robert Shoemaker, Tales from the Hanging Court.

-	J. M. Beattie, Crime and the Courts in England 1660-1800.

-	J. M. Beattie, Policing and Punishment in London 1660-1750: Urban Crime and the Limits of Terror.

-	The Proceedings of the Old Bailey, 1674 to 1913, www.oldbaileyonline.org. 

I hope this could be useful to improve this section, I will take your suggestion in consideration. [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 19:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I will add some small edits every time in order to avoid an unexpected, total, change. It is clear that the article will seem incomplete at the beginning because of this gradual work but it is important to me to clarify that I will improve it. Obviously I will appreciate any suggestion. [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 23:05, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

As you write and edit, keep in mind that the penal transportation sentence was meted out to men, women, and children. Depending on the geographic location, nation, and time period, the experience was not always limited to one sex or specific age range. [[User:ChessieClio|ChessieClio]] ([[User talk:ChessieClio|talk]]) 14:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I really appreciate your comment. I totally agree with you: transportation was not limited to one sex or age group. I read about the differences between sentences imposed to women and men especially in the 17th century before the transportation act simplified the process. Transportation was in the hands of merchants trading to colonies who usually left women in jail, they were not wanted as men too old or ill or children. Barbados for example were used to accept prisoners transported but not "women, children nor other infirm persons". 
These are only examples, I will try to write a complete description of how the social environment influenced the penal system. Thank you again, I will take into account any other suggestion. [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I added a paragraph about history in order to describe the events relevant to the transformation of the penal system. As suggested to me, I will add a paragraph about how transportation was differently applied according to gender and age group. I will give some information about the Transportation Act of 1718 by adding a subsection in "historical background", and the decline of transportation by improving the section "North America". [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 17:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Have you considered a subhead for Britain under Historical Background? The content you've added concerns the British system only (as you indicate in your opening sentence). Future edits might add additional subheads for historical background on other nations that practiced penal transportation. [[User:ChessieClio|ChessieClio]] ([[User talk:ChessieClio|talk]])  <span style="font-size:smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 15:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Suggestions for Ca' Foscari Wikiproject ==
Hi {{u|Gio1291}}! I read your "Historical Background" paragraph and I found it very interesting. In my opinion there's something you can improve. I saw that you're going to talk about the Transportation Act, and it would be useful if you could add some more historical information about how this Act changed and simplified the penal system. You could also add more notes in order to offer helpful sources. I think that your paragraph would be easier to read if you make some adjustments to the layout by adding some more line-spacing when you start a new topic. Let me know what you think about my suggestions and if you want to take a look on my project "Bounty (Reward)", so that I could improve my work as well. Have a nice day! [[User:Patrick.ucciardo|Patrick.ucciardo]] ([[User talk:Patrick.ucciardo|talk]]) 15:53, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi {{u|Patrick.ucciardo}}, thank you for your suggestions. I am working on my project and as you suggested me I will add some more information about the Transportation Act through a more detailed historical description. I will also talk about the significant role of Jonathan Forward and William Thomson. Anyway, you are totally right, I will add more notes that represent an essential element and I will improve the layout. 
It will be a pleasure to read your article and possibly give you some advice. [[User:Gio1291|Gio1291]] ([[User talk:Gio1291|talk]]) 16:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on [[Penal transportation]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=707315939 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20051103055419/http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk:80/pathways/familyhistory/gallery5/prisoners.htm to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/familyhistory/gallery5/prisoners.htm
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060918042359/http://www.atmitchell.com/journeys/law/justice/convict/convict.cfm to http://www.atmitchell.com/journeys/law/justice/convict/convict.cfm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tl|Sourcecheck}}).

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Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 03:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

==Assessment comment==
{{Substituted comment|length=1945|lastedit=20070321235629|comment=If this section is maintained by the Australian portal, then it's perhaps unsurprising that there's a strong bias towards convicts being shipped to Australia, and a lesser extent to the American colonies. But, with th abolition of the Slave trade in the British Empire coming up to celebrate its bicentenary, transportation to the sugar plantations of the West Indies has never been more relevant, more potentially controversial.. or more IGNORED. I've lived most of my life in and around the port of Bristol, in SW England. I attended Colston's Primary School - named (as with many Bristol institutions) after a former slave trader who gave generously to charitable causes. But Bristol was ALSO the setting for the notorious "Bloody Assize" of Judge Jefferies, who hanged hundreds of (alleged) participants in the "Pitchfork Rebellion"... but transported rather more of them to The West Indies. One of them - a doctor from Monmouth named Peter Blood - escaped and found fame as "Captain Blood", the pirate. My point is a simple one: Yes slavery was a BAD thing. But African slaves were seeming treated no worse than white tranportees had been not long before. I'm invited to feel guilty for benefiting from the one... but the other seems simply to have been swept under the carpet. 

Note how mention here in Wikipedia (qv) of Jefferies' transportations to the colonies is covered  by a single line... and WHICH colonies gets no mention at all. It's kind of like mentioning the Nazi Death camps without ANY reference to any of the (many) non-Jewish victims. That's kind of insulting to the memories of the Homosexuals, Communists, Freemasons, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses... Transportation to Australia may have been harsh... but not compared with transportation to a sugar plantation in the West Indies: that was like being moved to Death Row - regardless of your skin colour, race or creed. [[User:BigRonW|BigRonW]] 23:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)}}
Substituted at 02:35, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

== Renaming proposal ==

This article is all about transportation from Great Britain and Ireland with only one line referring to transportation from France. In light of this I propose renaming it to Penal transportation from Great Britain and Ireland and if anyone decides to write about transportation from other countries they can start a new article. if this isn't done some busybody who wants everyone else to do the work for them is liable to stick a globalization tag on it which will remain there until somebody decides to expand the article to include other countries, which will probably be never. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:Richerman|<span style="color: green;">Richerman</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Richerman|'''(talk)''']] 18:20, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

: {{Disagree}} I rearranged to make it more world-wide. Yes, it is largely Great Britain and Ireland, but it also touches on ancient Rome, France, India, and the Soviet Union. That info was already there, just buried. In addition, the current (new) structure will make future additions easier as other editors add content for other countries/areas. I think the article name should remain as "Penal transportation". — [[User:Molly-in-md|Molly-in-md]] ([[User talk:Molly-in-md|talk]]) 23:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

== Ideas for further expansion ==

This subject deeply affects world history, so this article could use additional info and linking. Here are some sources for further expansion:
* ''A Global History of Convicts and Penal Colonies'', published in 2018
** Table of contents and some additional info on the publisher's website, at https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/a-global-history-of-convicts-and-penal-colonies-9781350000674/
** The author's blog post about the book, at https://staffblogs.le.ac.uk/carchipelago/2018/06/20/a-global-history-of-convicts-and-penal-colonies/ – "a series of chapters, which cover the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, Scandinavian, French, British and Russian Empires, as well as Japan, Europe, the USSR and the post-colonial nations of Latin America, and, together, the essays span the period 1100 to the present day"
* article on "Atlantic History Criminal Transportation in the Atlantic World", at http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199730414/obo-9780199730414-0205.xml
* "Locating penal transportation: punishment, space and place c. 1750-1900" from Leicester Research Archive, at https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/31967/2/LocatingPenalTransportationV.6.pdf
* Journal article on "Transnational Histories of Penal Transportation: Punishment, Labour and Governance in the British Imperial World, 1788–1939", at https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1031461X.2016.1203962 – "The history of penal transportation proposed here thus moves beyond an exploration of its role in the outward metropolitan expansion of Empire, and towards an appreciation of its importance in labour extraction and governance within the larger imperial world."
* "Penal transportation, deportation and exile in the 19th and 20th centuries: Perspectives from the colonies", at http://research.uni-leipzig.de/~eniugh/congress/programme/event/?tx_seminars_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=327
* Transportation by Japan, beginning in the 1600s, at http://convictvoyages.org/expert-essays/japan
* Transportation by the [[Portuguese Empire]], at http://convictvoyages.org/expert-essays/convicts-and-their-labour-in-portugal-and-the-portuguese-empire
* Transportation by the [[Spanish Empire]], at http://convictvoyages.org/expert-essays/the-spanish-empire

— [[User:Molly-in-md|Molly-in-md]] ([[User talk:Molly-in-md|talk]]) 14:00, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

== Which Cromwell? ==

This appears to be the only mention of Cromwell in the page:

<blockquote>During the Commonwealth, '''Cromwell''' overcame the popular prejudice against subjecting Christians to slavery or selling them into foreign parts, and initiated group transportation of military[14] and civilian prisoners.[15]</blockquote>

Nowhere does it say who Cromwell was (or link to a relevant entry).

--[[User:Seanr|Seanr]] ([[User talk:Seanr|talk]]) 16:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

:More likely to be Oliver than his politically inept and shortlived successor as Lord Protector, son Richard. I have now clarified this, wikiliking it to Oliver's wiki biography, because I am aware Scottish prisoners of war taken at the Battle of Worcester (1651) were sent to the West Indies during his rule.[[User:Cloptonson|Cloptonson]] ([[User talk:Cloptonson|talk]]) 06:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

==Diversion of convicts for Australia to Russian Empire - did it happen?==

I note in the article on [[Grigory Potemkin]] (subsection Builder) that among peoples he encouraged to settle in the Crimea were 'British convicts diverted from Australia'. I have raised a citation need against that statement but I draw this to attention to encourage investigation. Currently it is not mentioned in this article; 
it would be interesting to add something on this if published information can be found. I wonder if there were arrangements with the British government for this to be done. Note this was pre-Suez Canal so the transportation ships would not already be passing through the Mediterranean for Australia.[[User:Cloptonson|Cloptonson]] ([[User talk:Cloptonson|talk]]) 06:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

==Wiki Education assignment: ARCN 211 Material Histories of Labor==
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Carleton_College/ARCN_211_Material_Histories_of_Labor_(Winter_Term) | assignments = [[User:Cuttera24|Cuttera24]] | start_date = 2023-01-04 | end_date = 2023-03-15 }}

<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Cuttera24|Cuttera24]] ([[User talk:Cuttera24|talk]]) 15:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</span>

== Modern Russia  ==

I am as student taking a class on forced labor and slavery. I am planning on adding a section to this article talking about transportation to Russian prisons in a modern context if anyone has strong thoughts or feelings about adding modern context to this page let me know.  [[User:Cuttera24|Cuttera24]] ([[User talk:Cuttera24|talk]]) 01:02, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

== Modern USA ==

Deportation of illegal immigrants, terrorists, etc. to facilities such as CECOT should be added as a U.S. update to the British tradition of transportation, perhaps also with discussion of how this new U.S. approach is also informed by the Spanish imperial legacy of the New World’s color-based caste systems? [[Special:Contributions/2601:602:9202:1050:E974:C829:CE77:9F9F|2601:602:9202:1050:E974:C829:CE77:9F9F]] ([[User talk:2601:602:9202:1050:E974:C829:CE77:9F9F|talk]]) 17:57, 12 April 2025 (UTC)