View source for Talk:Pan-Celticism

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==Youth parliaments==
''Late 1990s: Scottish and Irish Youth parliaments begin ''

Is this relevant? [[User:Gerry Lynch|Gerry Lynch]] 17:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, because they often visit each other's countries. It seems to be set up more as an exchange than anything else.

==Music==

I was initially hesitant to add England as a matter of course, but a quick scan on the internet shows references to music/individuals from England - notably to do with Northumbria or the Northumbrian pipes, yet also some mentioning of Cumbria - at festivals that celebrate 'Celtic music'.  This is important and warrants a mention.  Had Cumbria its own flag, I'd have added that and Northumbria/Bernicia/North East England as entities like Asturias and Galicia.  For future additions, there is a strong likelihood of inclusion from Devon. [[User:Enzedbrit|Enzedbrit]] 03:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

:Certain types of English music are that country's best claim to "Celticity". Cumbria does have its own flag, but if you know the faintest wee smidgin about "Cumbria", you will know that the majority of the locals there consider it an artificial entity from Heath's era and identify with Cumberland, Westmorland and, in parts, Lancashire. Neither Cumbria nor Northumbria are entities like Asturias and Galicia at all. For one, both of these were created in the 1970s by London, and despite bearing the names of earlier kingdoms, have little to do with them. Also, neither has successfully voted for home rule. If you remember rightly, the North East of England turned it down, and that was the beginning of the end for John Prescott. Neither really consider themselves nations to any large degree. There is a Geordie identity, but in contradistinction to Macker etc. Yorkshire and Lancashire have more united identities, although of course, Merseyside was formerly in Lancashire (partly), and they think of themselves quite differently again. (This is all without dwelling on Cornwall, and/or Devon) --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] 14:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC) p.s. It might be helpful to talk about subnational identities. Some parts of the Six are often considered more Celtic, and the same applies to England.

::The faintest wee smidgeon of knowledge of Cumbria would indeed reveal that 'many', but not most - as the idea of a Cumbria has taken such strong rooting - regard Cumbria as artificial, but as with Celticity in north west Spain, the idea is being fostered and will prevail, especially with those of my generation and younger who have only lived in a Cumbria and not a Westmorland.  Northumbria wasn't created in the 1970s, more like the 6th century, and it doesn't exist as official in anything today other than name and attributes to institutions.  Northumbria is as genuine by name, as a region, as Galicia and Asturias.  The difference between Cumbria/Northumbria and Galicia/Asturias is that Celtic languages were spoken in the former, where there has always been a continuation of Celtic tradition, for a longer period (and still well known in [[Cumbric|many ways]]) whereas in the latter there is a big drive to it now as a way of separation from Spanish identity.  I even read a website that referred to Galician as a Celtic language because the Galicians regard themselves as Celts and have their own language - Latin - which must also be Celtic.  There is nothing in language, music and culture that is more Celtic about Galicia than the north east of England, with its tartan, pipes, mythology.  The difference is that people are ready and willing to accept Galicia, but no part of England other than Cornwall.  I'm glad that the North East voted down devolution because it was not what the majority wanted and the idea of the north east as it is today is very artificial - just a compass point name.  However, there is a very strong regional identity in the north east, be it by people who call themselves North Easterners, Geordies, Northumbrias, Bernicians, with so many parallels to nationhood, but I wouldn't call it nationhood as that's pointless in so many ways.  The idea of a Yorkshire identity is very strong, and the fact that the area is Yorkshire plain and simple, identified and certain, is a big part of that.  I can't say though how much of Yorkshire's regional culture and identity draws on its Celtic heritage; of the relatively little I do know of Yorkshire is that there is many a Yorkshireman that would list themselves Yorkshire, British and then European before English. [[User:Enzedbrit|Enzedbrit]] 03:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

:Galician is no more a "Celtic language" than [[Scots language|Lowland Scots]], [[Galo language|Galo]] or [[Anglo-Irish]]. However, once again you betray your anglocentrism by referring to the "north east". I'm afraid the north east of the UK is Banff and Buchan. ;-) You have an obsession with Celtic England, but ignore other countries such as France which have similar claims to "Celticity" (minus Brittany, cf the "Cornish Celts" tend not to consider themselves English if they are of the nat tendency). I'm yet to meet someone who considers themselves "Bernician" (probably they exist ''somewhere''), and in my experience Geordies have a deeper Newcastle identity than Northumbrian, although perhaps it is there. 

:"The difference is that people are ready and willing to accept Galicia, but no part of England other than Cornwall." - no they aren't. The Celtic League and Celtic Congress don't accept Galicia. Read up before you edit. --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] 17:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

::I betray my heritage by saying 'north east' because my mother's family call Co. Durham home.  It is how I speak.  Had they been from north east Scotland and I referred to the north east in a Scottish context without saying 'Scotland', would you say the same?  I will always refer to the 'north east' and see no hypocricy in it; it is my heritage.
::I am well aware that Galician is not a Celtic language, which was my point.  I am well aware that Cornish nationalists tend not to identify as English.  Yet, people ARE more willing to accept Galicia.  The Celtic League and Celtic Congress, in whom I hold no regard, are not 'everyone'.  I wasn't even referring to them.  Maybe you should read my edit before you criticise it.  A quick look on-line shows that Galicia is linked so often to being Celtic. [[User:Enzedbrit|Enzedbrit]] 03:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

:::It's only the north east to people in England. Not to me. And I wouldn't necessarily refer to the "north east" on wikipedia, as the many American editors might think I meant New England, or the more globally minded might think I meant China, Korea and Japan. I hate to tell you this, but Galicia doesn't get that much more of a look in than English. You may well hold neither the Congress or the League in "no regard", but these are probably the most significant pan-Celtic organisations, which means their opinion holds more weight than your individual interpretation which is based more on keeping the "Home Nations" British than pan-Celticism. Galicia's Celtic heritage only really holds up when it comes to music, and that's arguably due to an Irish influx in the past few centuries. It's actually not particularly distinctively Celtic when seen in a broader international context. I think even the country where your accent comes from (New Zealand) has a better claim to being "Celtic". --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] 13:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


;''Celtic'' Cross of St George?!
So this is why the Flag of England has been included? This is misleading, to say the least and should be removed. Find me a source that refers to England as a Celtic country and/or to the English as a Celtic nation? Patent nonsense, and all because Celtic music is popular with some people in certain parts of the country (I don't include Cornwall here). If the English flag is acceptable for that reason why not add that of Japan, where there is a considerable degree of enthusiasm for things Celtic? A lot of the Yanks, whether or not of Irish descent, are also keen on Celtic culture, so why not add the US flag too? There is a debate below, rather an unneccesary one, about the use of the Irish Flag to refer to Ireland, and yet this anomaly is allowed to remain all this time. I propose removing the banner of St George. [[User:Enaidmawr|Enaidmawr]] ([[User talk:Enaidmawr|talk]]) 23:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
:I remove England without seeing this . I think 
*{{flag|Cantabria}}
*{{flag|Portugal}} - primarily [[Norte, Portugal|The North]]
*{{flag|Nova Scotia}}, especially [[Cape Breton Island|Cape Breton]]
*{{flag|Newfoundland and Labrador}}, especially the [[Avalon Peninsula]] 
should go also. [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 09:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Twin Towns - Cornwall/Brittany==
I wonder if pan-celtics are interested in the list at:
[[List_of_twin_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom#Cornwall]]
and other cultural and sporting programmes and events. 
- - - Vernon White 16:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
{{-}}

=="Modern Celts"==
Please take most of the discussion as to who is/isn't a "Celt" to the [[Modern Celts]] article, it doesn't really belong here, and just doubles up on what is there. 
----

== No references ==
Added the templates for no citations and original research. <span style="background:Black;border:1px solid Orange;padding:1px;">&nbsp;[[User:Doonhamer|<b><span style="color:Orange;">DOONHAMER </span></b>]]<span style="color:Orange;">|</span>[[User_talk:Doonhamer|<b><span style="color:Orange;"> BANTER</span></b>]]&nbsp;</span> 23:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

== Merge with Celtic Revival? ==

* '''Oppose''' - this is about slightly different subject matter. --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 12:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' - the Celtic Revival is a relatively modern phenomenon whereas Pan-Celticism has much older roots (medieval Welsh prophecy, beginning with a 10th century text, evokes a sort of "pan-Celtic alliance" to drive out the [[English people|Saeson]], for instance). This needs expanding, not merging. [[User:Enaidmawr|Enaidmawr]] ([[User talk:Enaidmawr|talk]]) 00:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
==Flag==
As per [[WP:V]] ''Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.'' and it should be [[WP:RS]]. The ref added is not a RS and as such I will keep removing it until such time  a [[WP:V]] is added and it meets [[WP:RS]] [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
:The flag is referenced. [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 18:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

::This guy is a timewaster. He has already wrecked a number of major rugby articles with this guff. It's all very well with the IRFU which does not use any of the Irish flags, and has a (c) logo, but in this case it's irrelevant, especially as Pan-Celticists tend by definition to be Irish nationalists, and to use the tricolour in all parts of the island.

::Wikipedia is being wrecked by these self-appointed bureaucrats.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

:::[[WP:AFG]] and try to be [[WP:CIVIL]], I take great offence from the allegations you are throwing at me .In fact if this happens again I will not be dealing with you ,will request a RFC and be reporting your behaviour . The reference proves the usage of 1 organisation not pan-celticism as a whole and as such is not a [[WP:RS]] . [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 18:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

::::You have caused chaos over at the rugby union wikiproject. And what for? A solution with which no one is happy! Don't bring that here, it's uncalled for. And enough of these bureaucratic abbreviations, use plain English please. It's not big and it's not clever, and it's certainly not helpful. 

::::As I remind you, it is perfectly legitimate to use the tricolour in the context of this article. Please desist.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 20:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC

:::::I don't care if no one is happy with the [[WP:RU]] solution all I care about is that consensus was achieved and wiki wasn't making up stuff, nor do I understand why it's relevant here. Wiki is not about inventing or making stuff up. I don't care what flag is used here once it's referenced correctly. The reference here proofs the usage of 1 organisation not Pan-Celticism as a whole. This is what must be referenced. Your tone is extremely aggressive ,I only provided the abbreviated links so we are all on the same page its common practice [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 20:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

::::::"I don't care" - I know you don't, and that's why the result is such a bureaucratic mess. You do seem to have some (political?) bee in your bonnet here - in the case of Pan-Celticism it flies in the face of the entire political tendency. Something which is blindingly obvious. The tricolour is not just the flag of the Republic of Ireland, it is also the nationalist/republican flag of ALL OF IRELAND. That's why you see it on the Falls Road etc.

::::::I also don't understand why you insist on using so many obscure abbreviations, when you clearly have a lot of time on your hands.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 15:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Gnevin, your attitude towards the entire project is disconcerting. "''I don't care if no one is happy with the WP:RU solution all I care about is that consensus was achieved''" -- this sentence is a direct contradiction of itself. Also, please try to keep in mind that Wikipedia's teachings of "assume good faith" and "be civil" go both ways. Your liberal use of acronyms ([[WP:V]], [[WP:RS]], [[WP:AGF]], [[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:RU]]) are alientating, especially considering that you are dealing with other experienced editors, not explaining to newcomers that they can't create an article about their band and use MySpace as a reference. I'm a big fan of policies and procedures too, but you should never forget what I consider the first rule of Wikipedia: [[WP:IAR|ignore all rules]]. (Not that I'm invoking it here.)

Now, can anyone actually explain the issue here, for the uninvolved editors who have been asked to comment? Feels like it was rushed to RfC prematurely. –[[User:ArmadniGeneral|ArmadniGeneral]] ([[User talk:ArmadniGeneral|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ArmadniGeneral|contribs]]) 05:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

:When a user accuses some one of being a time waster (this being one for the lesser insults thrown my way) I think it's fair to link to be civil and AGF, don't you?  I don't see how the use of acronyms is alienating it's common practice to link to what your discussing, while the user may be experienced others can and will be reading this discussion (I noticed you linked to IAR) .

:I don't see how it's a contradiction ,consensus can be achieved which no one is particularly happy with. I myself wasn't over joyed with the solution but it needed to happen. With out wanting to upset you, you can read [[WP:RUIRLFLAG]] for more background if you wish but as I said before it's not relevant here at all.

:Anyway enough about me the issue here is the the Island of Ireland has no flag that is universally accepted as such I removed it asking for a reference. The Irish tricolour was then added instead of the 4 prov flag. Now it's my contention that reference added only indicated the usage of the Celtic league not pan-celitism as a whole [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 09:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

::Actually it's not an insult, it's a fact. How many "column inches" did that discussion take up on the Rugby Union pages? Quite a few. And how many days were taken up discussing it? At least half a dozen editors, including myself got dragged into it. And for what? Something which looks bad, and pleases no one, all over a piece of pedantry.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 15:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::I've removed and reverted a link that clearly fails [[WP:RS]] [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 12:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Gnevin, can you give a reliable source which does not have the Irish tri-colour representing the whole island in respect to Pan-Celticism?  [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 12:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Do you expect me to [[Argument from ignorance|prove a negative]], what I do know is  I've never seen the [[Magners League]] using it for example [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 12:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

:::::The Celtic League (rugby) aka "Magners League" (I hate referring to things by their sponsors - reeks of advertising), is not an overtly pan-Celtic organisation. True, it does take in Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams the now, but in the near future, Italian teams are going to be competing in it. --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 15:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:Any luck finding a reliable source for this? I don't think it's possible as there is not one organisation which represents Pan-Celticism so the options are remove the tri-colour or remove all the flags [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 14:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
===Breaking it down===
Tell which of the following you disagree with
*Pan-Celtisim is a concept
*Pan-Celticism is the name given to a variety of movements that espouse greater contact between the various Celtic nations.
*Pan-Celticism is not exclusively the domain of nationalist and republican 
*Pan-Celtisim is a concept used by many different organisations
*Pan-Celtisim is a concept used by many different organisations some of which use non tri-colour to represent the [[island of Ireland]]
*The island of Ireland has no de jure flag
*The island of Ireland has not universally accepted flag de facto flag
[[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:The first two are right, the third is nonsense, the fourth is true, the fifth is untrue, the last two are irrelevant to this article. Why are the last two irrelevant? Because they refer to a political, or cultural nationalist, wish. Funnily enough, until recently Scotland's flag was not standardised, and could be found in many shades of blue (now Pantone 300), and I believe that the flags of Brittany and Cornwall have no official status either. Anyone who would claim that neither Brittany nor Cornwall nor Scotland had/s a flag would be clearly confused, however - all have/had established usage. Now my questions - how much time, energy and space do we have devote to this? This already dominates this talk page.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 17:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
::Really when did the Rugby turn republican and start using the tri-colour and when did failte ireland [http://www.panceltic.ie/] and when did the British  council [http://www.britishcouncil.org/china-aboutuk-art-history-wales-celts.htm], while the concept is heavly propomted by republicians its not ''exclusively the domain of nationalist and republicans '' [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:::???? Methinks someone is confused. This article is '''not''' about rugby. Read what I said. The British Council is a British, not a pan-Celtic organisation, and has no interest in reuniting Ireland, let alone linking up Ireland, Scotland and Brittany etc. I think you really need to get some sleep or something, because if you think Failte Ireland and the Brit Cooncil are representative of pan-Celticism, then you are living in an alternative reality.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 18:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC) p.s. Can you answer my question please? How much time, and space do you intend to devote to this?
::::I am certainly not confused. The [[Magners League]] fits the definition of Pan-Celticism perfectly. Board failte aren't known for supporting Republicanism, the British council/BBC don't mention Republicanism either do PanCeltic.ie. I don't see a claim of a United Ireland being a stated goal of Pan-Celticism. Pan-Celticism is a concept held by many, Republican, nationalist and others as such the concept comes in many different shades not just the one you hold.  Till the flags are either correctly referenced or removed [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 19:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
::::P.S This is such a major Republican/Nationalist topic they aren't mentioned in the article once! How about this, we put this conversation on hold for a month and you can work on improving this article and making it clearer. You have shown a lot of knowledge here which is not in the article . [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 19:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:::::You have an extremely distorted view of Pan-Celticism. You won't find it in the UUP, DUP, or Orange Order. You won't find it within British-orientated organisations either, since their main aim is to keep the unity of the UK, which doesn't include Brittany or the Republic of Ireland. (Or the IOM, technically, but it is associated). 

:::::The Magners League doesn't include Cornish, Manx or Breton teams. (Fair enough, I think only Cornwall might be strong enough to field a decent team, although Brittany did host some world cup games) It's going to include Italian teams next year. And they're not all going to be from Val d'Aosta.

:::::The biggest piece of silliness in your whole argument is that Irish Unionists can be Pan-Celtic too. Considering that a number of Irish don't even consider themselves one nation (mistakenly in my view), how are they expected to link up as a single entity with other nations? Funnily enough, the Irish language is also anathema to almost all hardcore unionists (with one or two exceptions), and they're not keen on the promotion of it. Like I say, your view of this subject is extremely distorted. I have actually been to Pan-Celtic events, they usually don't bother to split up Ireland into two entities - rightly or wrongly. --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

'''I repeat my question: How much time, and space do you intend to devote to this?''' I intended to be online for an hour yesterday. You kept me online for THREE. You are wasting people's valuable time here.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==RFC request==
Is the current reference used on the Ireland flag a [[WP:RS]] and if not should the flag be removed until such time as a RS is found [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 20:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
*Uninvolved editor's comment. Leave all the flags out. Not necessary for the article. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 17:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

:Thank you for your input, which is welcome (even though I disagree with the advice given). As pointed out previously ([[Talk:List of men's national association football teams#Flag icons|on another page]]), the guideline [[MOS:ICON#Appropriate_use]] states "Icons may be helpful in certain situations:<br>They can aid navigation in long lists or tables of information as some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon."<br>That is appropriate here. There is no need to remove the flag icons from this article. They are being used appropriately, have been cited (where challenged) and perform a valid and useful function, to the benefit of the reader. [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 14:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
::[[WP:MOSICON]] is not the issue here the issue is the references given don't backup what is being claimed [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 14:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
:::I don't understand. If the flag icons are not an issue, why were they all removed? [[User:Daicaregos|Daicaregos]] ([[User talk:Daicaregos|talk]]) 15:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Because [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] suggested they weren't necessary for the article (which I agree they aren't) and removing them would negate the dispute regarding referencing [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 15:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

* '''Strongly Oppose''' - Gnevin seems to have made this a personal crusade for some reason, and it has taken up far too much discussion time over on Wikiproject:Rugby Union. The result is not a happy one.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 15:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
:What relevance has [[WP:RU]] got here? Also this isn't a vote [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 16:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::The relevance is to your fixation. People can go over there and see all the trouble and bother you have caused. You weren't content with doing it once, you seem to be going through the whole thing again. You're obsessed. --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 19:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
:::[[Ad hominem]][[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 19:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

::::Since I was referring to your obsessive behaviour, of course I am referring to you personally. Why are you so fixated on this? Take responsibility for your own actions, and the trouble that they may cause.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 17:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

*Comment - It seems to me that the 'Ireland' article should more correctly direct to the 'island' article rather than the re-direct to the southern state. In that case, the use of the flag would be inappropriate as general usage on Wikipedia re 'national' flag icons implies contemp sovereign states. I know the ref gives a rationale for its use elsewhere, but I don't think it conforms with our usage. If a flag is considered useful, maybe the 'four provinces' one would be better. [[User:RashersTierney|RashersTierney]] ([[User talk:RashersTierney|talk]]) 16:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::This one is going to run and run, and Gnevin knows this. How much time exactly do we need to "spend" on this? We are dealing with an pan-Irish nationalist/republican movement here folks, not states or the Irish Rugby Football Union. I think Gnevin is also ascribing Wikipedia (an abstract, collective entity) with sharing his personal (political?) views.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

: [[User:RashersTierney|RashersTierney]], the 4PROV flag has the same issue .It's [[WP:OR|Original Research]] , the island of Ireland doesn't have a flag and it's not up to us to [[Flagcruft#Do_not_repurpose_icons_beyond_their_legitimate_scope|invent one]].[[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 16:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::It's not original research. You claim to know Ireland. What do they fly on the Falls Road and "Free" Derry? The Irish nationalist movement DOES have a flag, and you know it. There's Orange in it for a reason. I didn't make it up. You may object to that, but it's fact.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

:::I find it somewhat bizarre that this dispute is taking place at all. Surely all it needs is a brief footnote explaining that the Irish flag is both the official flag of the Republic ''and'' the flag which is widely used to designate the whole of the island of Ireland? As [[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] notes, "What do they fly on the Falls Road and "Free" Derry?". Everybody knows the answer. This argument is pointless (yet the Flag of England is allowed to stay! - see above). [[User:Enaidmawr|Enaidmawr]] ([[User talk:Enaidmawr|talk]]) 23:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

::::Thank you!!! '''Yesterday I intended to spend an hour online, I actually spent THREE hours online''', and most of that three was involved with this trivia. Gnevin has a bee in his/her bonnet about this, and I don't know why. S/he pushed it through on rugby articles - just about excusable there - but seems to be pushing the agenda elsewhere. I don't know whether the plan is really to grind us dissenters down with sheer time pressure or not, but it certainly feels like it.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::You claim this is a nationalist issue fine lets add the flag from {{tl|IrishN}} so . This nonsense of inventing stuff on wiki has to stop [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

::::::You have not formed a consensus, and seem to be pushing a personal agenda. I think most Wikipedia users on this page would prefer to deal with a group discussion, rather than a monologue.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 15:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::::3 outside users are against the Tricolour or the flags all together . I also feel the flags should be removed. The only users I can see [[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] and [[User:Daicarego|Daicarego]] seem to be supporting it . Also the issue of [[WP:V]] hasn't been address [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 19:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::Brought in by you, no doubt. It does appear that you are the only regular user of this page obsessed with getting rid of the flag, even though it applies. You won a victory over on the rugby pages, but not satisfied with that, you seem to want to have a rerun. Like I say, OBSESSED. Find something USEFUL to do. (Bureaucratic vandalism is not the same as being useful BTW) --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 19:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: I suggest you (re)read [[WP:AGF]],[[WP:Be civil]] and [[WP:NPA]]. A RFC was posted the users came as a result of that as far as I know [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 16:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

::::::::::Go back to my comments on [[plain English]]. Don't think you impress me with your abbreviations - they don't justify this obstructive, and time consuming, obsession of yours with Irish flags. Again, take responsibility for your own actions, and stop hiding behind bureaucracy. 

::::::::::I also suggest you answer the question. How much time do you intend to spend on this? You can't answer that because you merely wish to lengthen this debate out until you get your own way. Don't think you can grind the rest of us down quite so easily. I have already used up hours and hours on this complete and utter nonsense. Please, find something productive to do, and soon.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 17:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

*The flag icons on this page are purely decorative and serve no navigational purpose. Each of the 12 icons only appears once, so this is not a case where a reader uses an icon to spot all the instances of a particular nationality out of a large list, for example.  Also, subdivisional flags are used, which have limited usefulness for most readers. The article would not suffer if the icons were removed. — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 18:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==Kingdom of X==
What was the name of the Kingdom that included the North-east Irish and Western Scottish coasts? [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:[[Dál Riata]] [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 18:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

==What is this region==
What is the region in Portugal on [http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0603/feature3/images/mp_full.3.jpg this map]? [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 18:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:Looks like [[Minho Province]]. — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 18:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
::or [[Minho-Lima]]? [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 18:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
==Un-cited==
This is as side from the flag discussion this article has many un-cited and dubious statements . I'm going to remove anything tagged with {{tl|fact}} or {{tl|who}} in a month if they are still unreferenced [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 18:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:Quite right. I'll have a wee look for references to back up any un-cited statements, as I'm sure you will, yes? [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 00:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah I'm still looking references. I've already added several [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 17:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
:::[http://www.scotland.org/about/history-tradition-and-roots/features/culture/traditional-music.html] Could this be used as a ref for the music festivals bit I added? It only deals with Scotland so more would be needed. --[[User:Misortie|大輔 泉]] ([[User talk:Misortie|talk]]) 18:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
::::I think this ref should cover it all. [http://www.alternatemusicpress.com/features/features30.html] [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 19:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
:::::Add them both. No harm. [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 20:32, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

As usual, you seem to be more willing to delete content than research it. Or God forbid, you could actually create some content. Perhaps you could go off and actually find references. It would be of more use to the human race than stupid pedantry.--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] ([[User talk:MacRusgail|talk]]) 16:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pan-Celticism&action=historysubmit&diff=344423616&oldid=337880894 Changes] mainly by me. Maybe you could use your claimed knowledge here to improve this article instead of having a go at me . P.S I told you about this happening [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MacRusgail&oldid=339560748 a month ago], you've 3 days until I remove all un-cited as per above  [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 16:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
::It'll be removed by consensus, not by any arbitrary deadline set by a single editor. --[[User:Joowwww|Joowwww]] ([[User talk:Joowwww|talk]]) 23:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Considering this is not a *BLP* I think the former comment is correct. --[[User:Misortie|Frank Fontaine]] ([[User talk:Misortie|talk]]) 00:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Image ==

The second image (map) contains the caption, "where a Celtic language is spoken but not the dominating language", suggesting that in the area in dark green, representing "present-day Celtic-speaking areas", that it is dominant. This appears to be somewhat misleading. [[User:Mannanan51|Mannanan51]] ([[User talk:Mannanan51|talk]]) 17:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

:Yes, there are really ''no'' areas in which Celtic languages are dominant any longer. I've tweaked it, but I'm sure the phrasing could be improved. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] ([[User talk:Paul Barlow|talk]]) 17:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

== French Wikipedia ==

The article on the [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panceltisme French Wikipedia] is far, far superior to this one. I think it just needs to be wholesale translated. This one is pretty useless. [[User:Claíomh Solais|Claíomh Solais]] ([[User talk:Claíomh Solais|talk]]) 09:49, 24 September 2017 (UTC)