View source for Talk:Orlando

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{{old move|date1=16 April 2024|name1=Orlando (disambiguation)|destination1=Orlando|result1=moved|link1=Special:Permalink/1225768563#Requested move 16 April 2024|date2=11 May 2025|destination2=Orlando (disambiguation)|result2=not moved|link2=Special:Permalink/1291067622#Requested move 11 May 2025}}

== Untitled ==
Not as that anyone who hasn't read the book would notice -- Orlando is actually about the history of English Literature. He becomes a 'she' as women become to figure more importantly in the world of Letters. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sparky|Sparky]] ([[User talk:Sparky|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sparky|contribs]]) 14:49, 10 December 2003</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== True or false?? ==
True or false: this article belongs at [[Orlando (disambiguation)]] with [[Orlando]] being a re-direct to [[Orlando, Florida]]. [[User:66.245.18.193|66.245.18.193]] 15:03, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
:Moved most of the topics to the new disambiguation page - however, I tried to keep everything connected to what appears to be the 'root' meaning of Orlando on the Orlando page itself. ([[Orlando, Florida]], was named after a guy who had Orlando as first name, who normally would have gotten his first name as a far derivation from Orlando/Roland character). So no automatic "redirect" to Florida please: when checking "what links here" non-"Orlando, Florida" references appeared quite frequent (I already adapted several of these so they would direct to the correct article directly). I suppose outside Florida (or US?) Orlando is probably more often used ''not'' to refer to the American city. Orlando is a very central theme in the whole of Renaissance culture, and the Orlando novel is one of the absolute "musts" of 20th century literature, etc... --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 10:02, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
::[[User:66.167.139.240|66.167.139.240]] 03:57, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC): Even after some clean up done by [[User:Francis Schonken]] and myself, it's clear that there are a lot more contributions to Wikipedia that use [[Orlando]] to refer to [[Orlando, Florida]] instead of [[Orlando (character)]] (blame [[Disney World]], perhaps).  For now, I've simply created [[Orlando (character)]] and redirected [[Orlando]] to it, as a compromise.  Having the character in a separate article makes it easier to deal with later, as contributions continue.
:::--[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 05:18, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC):
:::Minor adjustments:
::: -> [[Orlando]]: redirect to disambig page seems more logical now;
::: -> Re-grouped disambig page, City on top;
::: -> [[Orlando (character)]]: ''always'': AND MUSIC...
*It's not so much how important Orlando, FL is, it's how unimportant the others are. There's almost literally nothing else that has a legitimate claim to the name. Keep in mind the language of the encyclopedia is in fact English, not Italian or Spanish. [[User:Matt Yeager|<b><span style="color:#DF0001;">Matt Yeager</span></b>]] [[Special:Random|<b><span style="font-size:medium; color:#B46611;">♫</span></b>]] [[User_talk:Matt Yeager|<span style="color:#00AA88;">(Talk?)</span>]] 05:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
: I don't agree that the other meanings are unimportant. It depends on your level of culture. But to avoid a reversion war, I'll leave it to someone else to revert your reversion of my reversion! [[User:Eric Kvaalen|Eric Kvaalen]] ([[User talk:Eric Kvaalen|talk]]) 12:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::The disamb page lists six things (not counting the city) that would normally be referred to as "Orlando" without a qualifier or other descriptive word (as opposed to, say, [[Orlando Bloom]]).
* A seemingly unimportant film
* A seemingly unimportant band
* A seemingly unimportant 1960's TV series
* The cat from a series of illustrated books
* The name of a character in a Shakespeare play
* One of Handel's operas (and not an especially important one)
::Which of the following matters (regardless of culture)? I assume you must mean the Handel opera... but seriously? A minor opera (even one written by someone as famous as Handel) isn't really that big of a deal notability-wise. I guarantee you that most people typing in "orlando" are NOT looking for that page. [[User:Matt Yeager|<b><span style="color:#DF0001;">Matt Yeager</span></b>]] [[Special:Random|<b><span style="font-size:medium; color:#B46611;">♫</span></b>]] [[User_talk:Matt Yeager|<span style="color:#00AA88;">(Talk?)</span>]] 02:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

==Orlando (name)==
To be more in line with what the other name articles are like, I made a red link near the top of this article for [[Orlando (name)]]. Ideally this would talk about the origins of the name, etc. Also, I've removed the list of the people named Orlando from here, as they would go in that Orlando (name) article. I might create a stub later, but, you know, maybe not. [[User:Recury|Recury]] 18:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

== Removal of Orlando massacre ==
{{ping|Red Slash}} Per WP:BRD I do not revert, but I see it really unconstructive that you removed the Orlando massacre after {{ping|BD2412|Parsley Man}} (and me) didn't seem to have any problems with it. The massacre is globally very often just cited as "Orlando" [//twitter.com/hashtag/Orlando] and as people usually don't know about the obscure naming conventions[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=2016+Pulse+nightclub+shooting][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=2016+Orlando+nightclub+shooting&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_tag_log=1&hide_review_log=1]… in Wikipedia, they will often show up here to look for it. We should really have this link as a service for the readers. --[[User:Schmarrnintelligenz|S]][[User talk:Schmarrnintelligenz|I]] 09:09, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
:Hey, if the general consensus is against it, that's fine by me. I just think of it as an unlikely place to list what I would search for as the [[Orlando shooting]] [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red </span>]][[User talk:Red Slash|<b style="color:#460121;">Slash</b>]] 02:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

== Requested move 20 August 2016 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved''' per [[WP:SNOW]]. [[User:SSTflyer|<span style="color:Black">SST</span>]][[User talk:SSTflyer|<span style="color:DarkRed">flyer</span>]] 01:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
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[[:Orlando (disambiguation)]] → {{no redirect|Orlando}} – "Orlando" should not redirect to [[Orlando, Florida]] because I don't think it is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. And there is more than one place called "Orlando". [[Special:Contributions/31.52.4.146|31.52.4.146]] ([[User talk:31.52.4.146|talk]]) 12:03, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose move''' - it's a clear primary topic. The fact there's more than one place named Orlando is irrelevant. '''[[User:Old Naval Rooftops|<span style="color:#EFEFD7;background:#E0201F">&nbsp;ONR&nbsp;</span>]]'''[[User:ONR/t|<span style="color:#264D80;background:#E3E3EE">&nbsp;(talk)&nbsp;</span>]] 16:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Another poor move request from this IP. I suggest we just start instantly closing these. [[User:Nohomersryan|Nohomersryan]] ([[User talk:Nohomersryan|talk]]) 17:19, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support move''': the city is known as "Orlando, Florida", not "Orlando". There are too many other important uses - Shakespearean character, Virginia Woolf novel, etc - for a single American city to claim Primary Topic status. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 09:05, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' move. The existence of other articles doesn't prevent the Florida city from being the primary topic. Page view statistics [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-90&pages=Orlando,_Florida|Orlando_(As_You_Like_It)|Orlando:_A_Biography|Orlando_(handel)|Orlando_(opera)|Orlando_(film)|Orlando_(given_name)|Orlando_(surname)] show the city is clearly the primary topic. '''<span style="border: 1px blue solid;background:Cyan">[[User:Calidum|<span style="color:#4863A0;">Calidum</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Calidum|<span style="color:#A18648;">¤</span>]]</span>''' 15:02, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' – City is hands down primary topic for the "Orlando" term. Sure, it's a popular name, and the dab page does the job. — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 23:58, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' – Once again, this IP is making disruptive request right after their block expired. The IP address has cited ''no'' evidence that the city ''is not'' primary topic for the term Orlando. [[User talk:CookieMonster755|<b style="color:limegreen"><sup>Ḉɱ̍</sup></b>]] [[User:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:Gold">2nd anniv.</span>]]  17:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' – I'd like to see a topic ban on move requests and blocking the page move feature for this IP user, but is that even technically possible or do we need this editor to open an account? — [[User:JFG|JFG]] <sup>[[User talk:JFG|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
::I believe we could do so '''<span style="border: 1px blue solid;background:Cyan">[[User:Calidum|<span style="color:#4863A0;">Calidum</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Calidum|<span style="color:#A18648;">¤</span>]]</span>''' 03:13, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Requested move 16 April 2024 ==
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 03:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
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[[:Orlando (disambiguation)]] → {{no redirect|Orlando}} – I realise that this was discussed before in 2016, but consensus may have changed.  A recent discussion at [[Talk:Orlando, Florida]] showed no consensus that this is the primary topic.  I would put forward two reasons.  Firstly, the sheer number of entries on this page means that we should be cautious about deciding that there is a primary topic.  Secondly, some people argued that the Florida city is widely known outside the USA because it attracts a large number of tourists as the location of Disney World.  However, speaking as a European who has never visited the USA, the extent to which US cities are widely known elsewhere is not necessarily a function of the number of tourists, it's not like e.g. Chicago or Los Angeles. [[User:PatGallacher|PatGallacher]] ([[User talk:PatGallacher|talk]]) 17:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Weak support''' I agree the city is the most common use but as noted it doesn't appear to be significantly more so and as noted in the 2016 discussion its common for US cities to be called with the state. And as a side note I was wondering about submitting this RM but its now already done. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]])  17:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. There's no evidence that the Florida city is not the primary topic here and if it weren't for [[WP:USPLACE]] it would be at the base name already. The number of page views [[Orlando Bloom]] gets is irrelevant here. No one looking for his page would reasonably look up just Orlando. ~~ [[User:Jessintime|Jessintime]] ([[User talk:Jessintime|talk]]) 18:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Jessintime|Jessintime]] actually, that last part is not necessarily true. At this point we have reasonably certain examples where given names are habitually used by significant contingents of readers to navigate to people's biographies, despite there being primary topics and/or very popular eponymous topics, cf. [[Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 56#on the quality of clickstream and pageviews usage data]], [[Talk:Charlotte#post-move]] etc. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 13:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per Crouch, Swale above. [[User:Huwmanbeing|╠╣uw]]&nbsp;<span style="font-size:smaller"><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User talk:Huwmanbeing|talk]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></span> 18:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The city seems like the clear primary topic here, seemingly with more views than the other primary topics combined. It is also a major US city, not a middle-of-nowhere town, and Wikipedia is not obligated to change its policies simply because people might have a poor grasp of geography. [[User:Zxcvbnm|ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ]] ([[User talk:Zxcvbnm|ᴛ]]) 19:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per above. As the person who just proposed the RM to move the city to the base name, I still argue it’s the primary topic for simply “Orlando”. And as Jessintime said, if it weren’t for the poorly made guideline that is WP:USPLACE, the city’s article would be at its proper place of [[Orlando]]. <span style="font-family:Oswald, sans-serif;text-shadow:1px 1px 1px #69b3e7;color:#fd0;">[[User:TrueCRaysball|<span style="color:#041e42;">True</span>]][[User talk:TrueCRaysball|<span style="color:#041e42;">CRaysball</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/TrueCRaysball|<sup style="color:#041e42;">#RaysUp</sup>]]</span> 22:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nomination; Crouch, Swale and ╠╣uw. No need for the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)". There are 40 entries listed upom the [[Orlando (disambiguation)]] page, with little indication that the putative [[WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT]] of [[Orlando]] to [[Orlando, Florida]] exceeds the combined renown of the remaining 39 entries. Those researching the Florida location can always access it directly by simply typing "[[Orlando, Florida]]".&nbsp;—[[User:Roman Spinner|'''Roman Spinner''']] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 02:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support''' Sheer numbers are typically poor indicators of wide familiarity for a locality.  Particularly if the locality lies in a populous country or region. A lot of the hits will be merely local people looking it up for directions to something or other.  In other words, lots of people live in Florida, and they are driving a lot of the pageviews. It doesn't really reflect its recognizability globally.  Given that the numbers for Orlando Florida are not as outsized as all that relative to the rest, I'd prefer disambiguation.  [[User:Walrasiad|Walrasiad]] ([[User talk:Walrasiad|talk]]) 07:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I prefer to error on the side of [[WP:PT2|primary topic with respect to ''long-term significance'']], in which no "Orlando" topic has that type of long-term significance to warrant the primary topic. We have about 40 entries listed on the [[Orlando (disambiguation)]] page. We further have numerous notable people listed on both [[Orlando (given name)]] and [[Orlando (surname)]]. And as detailed on [[Orlando, Florida#Etymology]], the city was apparently named after some person named Orlando, although the "origin of the name is unknown but at least five stories relate how Orlando got its name", including the possibility the city was named after [[Orlando (As You Like It)]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] ([[User talk:Zzyzx11|talk]]) 08:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
* This is a case of a primary redirect, so we actually get a little bit more data to work with to try to understand primary topic by usage. [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2024-03&pages=Orlando This is the graph of monthly page views for the primary redirect], where we can see:
{{hidden|Expand for page views raw data|
: 2023-10: 3499
: 2023-11: 3228
: 2023-12: 3766
: 2024-01: 4016
: 2024-02: 3457
: 2024-03: 3936
}}
: The [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Orlando]] page tells us there are incoming links to the primary redirect, in fact [https://linkcount.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&page=Orlando linkcount] says as many as 1782. That's a generator of traffic to an extent for sure. The rest of it would presumably be mostly readers organically typing "Orlando" into the search box.
: Now, the destination page attracts a lot of organic reader traffic as well, and we can at least try to compare traffic trends between the short term and the long term: [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2024-03&pages=Orlando|Orlando,_Florida this is monthly page views for both]. Because of the sheer difference in scale, you have to click Logarithmic scale to get to see the variations in short term traffic in a comparable manner. To me it seems that sometimes these graphs match very well, but often times their trends also differ.
: To try to figure out how many people go to "Orlando" and then reach for the hatnote, we can try to have a look at an the [[meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream]]s, visualised at [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Orlando%2C_Florida WikiNav for Orlando for last month]. Here's the data for the last few months:
{{hidden|Expand for clickstream-enwiki-*.tsv data for traffic where source is Orlando, Florida and destination is disambigation page|
:clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    466
:* total: 17335
:clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    422
:* total: 18046
:clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    480
:* total: 21517
:clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    609
:* total: 22651
:clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    453
:* total: 20100
:clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:
:* Orlando,_Florida     Orlando_(disambiguation)        link    502
:* total: 21668
}}
: Using these numbers is obviously not precise for our consideration, for multiple reasons:
:* any small number of people generally arriving at the city page from whichever route could be clicking the hatnote
:* there's also anonymization thresholds in the clickstream mechanism that could well be obscuring some of the traffic
:* the city article is a big and popular article anyway, so the total outgoing clickstreams are largely unrelated to the hatnote
:* likewise, the total incoming views are around ~65k, where ~30k is known to be brought in by external search engines, so we don't necessarily know the context, they don't have to be related to just searches of the short term "Orlando", rather it could be something similar or derived from other variables search engines know about visitors (like their locations or interests)
: But, it's the best we've got and we can at least compare these flawed numbers with analogous flawed numbers from other cases, and try to read the leaves from that. So let's look at the ratios:
{{hidden|Expand for percentage calculation of redirect views vs clickstreams towards the hatnote|2=
: 2023-10: 466 / 3499 = ~13.3%
: 2023-11: 422 / 3228 = ~13.1%
: 2023-12: 480 / 3766 = ~12.8%
: 2024-01: 609 / 4016 = ~15.2%
: 2024-02: 453 / 3457 = ~13.1%
: 2024-03: 502 / 3936 = ~12.8%
}}
: That's pretty stable, though when we see a small traffic spike like January, it also rises. Taken literally, this would mean that around 13% of readers could consistently be needing to reach for the navigation aid, while around 87% of them are not doing that. Now, even if these numbers were precise, we wouldn't know the reasons for the reader behavior - for example we wouldn't know if some of these were misclicks, nor would we know if people who get navigated wrongly just gave up and went away without reaching for the navigation aid (while still getting counted as 'views' of the city page through the redirect).
: How many readers reaching for the navigation aid constitutes a possible problem? We don't really know. I previously used ~90% as the point where it's hard to doubt it - if there's a difference of an order of magnitude, it's probably fine, otherwise we ponder it. A recent example where this seems to have been sound was [[Talk:Rubens (disambiguation)]].
: Now, once these readers who reach for the navigation aid end up at the disambiguation page, we can try to see what they do there from [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Orlando_%28disambiguation%29 WikiNav for the disambiguation page for last month]:
{{hidden|Expand for clickstream-enwiki-*.tsv data for traffic where source is Orlando (disambiguation)|2=
:clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando:_A_Biography    link    154
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_(given_name)    link    122
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_(film)  link    86
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Roland  link    41
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_(surname)       link    38
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_(As_You_Like_It)        link    36
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando,_Florida        link    25
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando,_Soweto link    15
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_Township,_Cheyenne_County,_Kansas       link    14
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando_(band)  link    11
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando,_Oklahoma       link    11
:* Orlando_(disambiguation)     Orlando,_Kentucky       link    10
:* total: 563
}}
: (The long-term significance of a lot of these topics is quite obviously comparable to that of the city, if not obviously larger, which reinforces the idea to ponder a change.)
: A recent possibly comparable example has been "Charlotte", described at [[Talk:Charlotte]]. It's also a well-known big city and a well-known human name. There, we had a rather contentious discussion but also a rather positive outcome - after trying the change, we found that presenting the readers with a list did ''not'' result in the same kind of ratios, rather only a plurality or a minority of readers went for the old primary topic, while many others navigated to other topics.
: I've also discussed a number of other cases at [[WT:D]] that were like that, so I'd be hopeful in this case, too. I think we should engage in this kind of an experiment over here. ('''Support''') Worst case, we end up disambiguating ~1.7k links, which is probably good anyway, and reverting the redirect after a few months of readers looking for the city having to just click the first item in the list, and this isn't really a bad thing anyway (we regularly force a lot more readers to do that in other cases, like [[New York]]).
: --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 08:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''': people accustomed to looking for US cities will search for [[Orlando, Florida]] because they know that's how we title articles on almost all US cities. Presence of a major tourist attraction is not enough to give this place priority over the many other uses, especially Shakespeare character, Woolf novel, and cat. There is nothing to indicate that the city is the primary topic, although it might merit a stand-out "commonly refers to" link at the top of the page as is often done for something which, while not primary, is major. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 09:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*:Just to confirm, the latter practice is described in the disambiguation ordering section of the manual of style, [[MOS:DABCOMMON]]. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 13:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Weak support''' I still intuitively feel like the city is the primary topic, but {{u|Joy}}'s reasoning has convinced me that an experiment could be worth doing. If we find after a few months that the city does indeed get a majority of traffic, then we can start a new RM to revert the move. -- [[User:King of Hearts|<b style="color:red">King of ♥</b>]][[User talk:King of Hearts|<b style="color:red"> ♦</b>]][[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<b style="color:black"> ♣</b>]][[Special:EmailUser/King of Hearts|<b style="color:black"> ♠</b>]] 18:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose'''. A Google search for Orlando demonstrates the city is the overwhelming primary topic. I appreciate the work Joy has done, but the data we have is extremely limited because most people get to our articles directly from search engines. Google knows to send everyone to [[Orlando, Florida]] directly, and that nobody wants the [[Orlando]] redirect. But our job is to serve the few who do type “Orlando” into our search, and we have no reason to believe our searchers are significantly different from Google searchers in terms of what they’re seeking when searching with “Orlando”. And that’s the topic of this article. —[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] well, the problem is that statistics say that we ''might'' have reason to believe that, to a similar extent they had maybe said that for 'Charlotte'. I know my various diatribes are rather intricate, so let me try a more visual demonstration: let's compare the [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2024-04&pages=Charlotte_(disambiguation)|Charlotte|Orlando_(disambiguation)|Orlando same monthly page view statistics for the primary redirect and the hatnote destination] from here and from there. The trend is basically the same - it looks like the hatnote doesn't receive a whole lot of interest from readers, right?
*:But, once we offered those readers a choice, the situation flipped on its head and we learned that no, they don't all go for the previously presumed primary topic.
*:If we [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2024-04&pages=Charlotte_(disambiguation)|Charlotte|Orlando_(disambiguation)|Orlando|Charlotte,_North_Carolina|Orlando,_Florida add the cities to the graph], the trend is also practically the same - the city traffic just dwarfs the hatnote traffic.
*:When the long-term significance of topics named X is not obviously clear, while a primary topic/redirect is in place, the raw level of organic traffic is just not a reliable predictor for the choices readers make when looking up X alone. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 12:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I absolutely think of Orlando Bloom before I think of the city, which I barely think of. I am interested in how other people think of this in the context of living in or outside of the USA. [[user:Notcharizard|<span style="color:#70A67A">-- NotC</span><span style="color:#396340">hariza</span><span style="color:#0D2311">rd</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Notcharizard|<span style="color:#0D2311">🗨</span>]]</sup> 11:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Notcharizard|Notcharizard]]  "Oppose" means to keep the status quo where [[Orlando]] leads to the US city, and readers wanting Bloom or other uses have to follow a hatnote link to get to the disambiguation page. Is that what you intended? [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
*::Thank you so much, don't know how I got that confused there! [[user:Notcharizard|<span style="color:#70A67A">-- NotC</span><span style="color:#396340">hariza</span><span style="color:#0D2311">rd</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Notcharizard|<span style="color:#0D2311">🗨</span>]]</sup> 14:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
*:Are you aware that [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]s are '''not''' determined by [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Not "what first comes to (your) mind"|”what first comes to (your) mind"]]?— [[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 16:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The city is the primary topic by long-term significance and by usage ([https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_(disambiguation)]). [[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] ([[User talk:Shhhnotsoloud|talk]]) 07:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] the problem with that list, as usual, is [[WP:NAMELIST]] - you have to separately go to [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando%20(given%20name)] and [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=all-time&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando%20(surname)] to see the traffic for the people named Orlando.
*:Even if one doesn't weigh these equally for whatever reason, when the traffic for any individual named Orlando is double than the traffic for the city, let alone the long tail, something is off. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 12:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
*::{{re|Joy}} But those people named Orlando aren't known solely as "Orlando". [[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] ([[User talk:Shhhnotsoloud|talk]]) 12:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
*:::@[[User:Shhhnotsoloud|Shhhnotsoloud]] yes, but that doesn't matter to all readers, some of whom expect to be able to navigate to them as such regardless of mononymous usage. I've previously found at least one case where their volume was significant even with a clear single primary topic by long-term significance, cf. [[Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 56#on the quality of clickstream and pageviews usage data]], so in this case, where there's many more kinds of options (note PamD's reply), I'd expect to see that as well. Worst case, we find this case is actually different and revert within a couple of months, but this time based on clearer data. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 15:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' no [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] here. While "Orlando" is being known inside the US given its presence of [[Walt Disney World]] and [[Universal Orlando Resort]], the name of "Orlando" remains unknown for readers outside the USA, at least for those who never travelled to the city. For them, the presence of tourism attraction doesn't mean that the city in Florida had long-term historical significance. [[Special:Contributions/103.111.100.82|103.111.100.82]] ([[User talk:103.111.100.82|talk]]) 14:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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== post-move ==

[https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Orlando WikiNav for Orlando] for September showed 2k views (2013), and we could identify a total of 1.6k outgoing views (1569), while 677 remained filtered. 12 outgoing destinations are identifiable. The previously presumed primary redirect destination got 860 clickstreams. That would be ~43% of incoming and ~55% of outgoing in a base comparison. (That would assume that few of the filtered clickstreams went there; if the ratio is similar to these, then that'd be about +335, so ~59% of incoming and ~53% of outgoing.)

[https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2023-11&end=2024-10&pages=Orlando|Orlando,_Florida|Orlando:_A_Biography|Orlando_(film)|Orlando_(given_name)|Orlando_(Frankish_warrior)|Orlando_(surname)|Orlando_(As_You_Like_It)|Orlando,_Soweto|Orlando,_Oklahoma Monthly page views for most common outgoing topics] show no major change in pattern for the destinations.

A decrease of incoming traffic to the base name is observable - this is an effect that we've seen elsewhere, too. Looks like search engines learn from our navigation change and modify how much traffic they send our way.

--[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 23:56, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

:A look into the clickstream archive indicates this list of outgoing destinations is pretty stable, [[Orlando: A Biography]] has consistently been #2. The next group (#3-#5) is usually the given name, film and Frankish warrior. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 00:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

In October, we were at 2.5k views (2538), and could identify 2.1k outgoing clicks (2089), while ~35% (882) were filtered. With 1314 clickstreams to the city, that was ~51% of incoming and ~63% of identifiable outgoing, though possibly down to ~44% given anonymization uncertainty (and if the ratios were similar, that's more similar). --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 10:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move 11 May 2025 ==

<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, inherit); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] '''after''' discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Jeffrey34555|Jeffrey34555]] ([[User talk:Jeffrey34555|talk]]) 00:31, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
----

[[:Orlando]] → {{no redirect|Orlando (disambiguation)}} – The city in Florida is the [[WP:PTOPIC|primary topic]]. It is known for theme parks, including Disney World. Also see search stats. Disney World and other parks are well known, whereas the other uses are far less likely. Also no other city named Orlando is nearly as significant. [[User:Mast303|Mast303]] ([[User talk:Mast303|talk]]) 20:26, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Mast303|Mast303]] can you please review the previous relatively recent move discussions above, and provide at least an overview of how you think your argument stacks up against the arguments laid out before? Thanks in advance. --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 21:04, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
::I have updated my statement. 22:29, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' for discussion that closed a year ago. There's no primary topic for the word "Orlando". [[Special:Contributions/120.188.5.139|120.188.5.139]] ([[User talk:120.188.5.139|talk]]) 23:26, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''.  This was discussed in 2024, and a consensus reached.  OP presents no real evidence that circumstances have changed since then. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 23:38, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. My position to keep the status quo, and error on a stance of [[WP:NOPRIMARY]] long-term significance, has not changed since the 2024 discussion. We currently have a number of entries listed on the [[Orlando (disambiguation)]] page. And as detailed on [[Orlando, Florida#Etymology]], the "origin of the name is unknown but at least five stories relate how Orlando got its name", including the possibility the city was named after William Shakespeare's fictional character [[Orlando (As You Like It)]]. Furthermore, there are numerous notable people listed on both [[Orlando (given name)]] and [[Orlando (surname)]], including actor [[Orlando Bloom]] (which also significantly gets more page views than the U.S. city[https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-90&pages=Orlando,_Florida|Orlando_Bloom]). [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] ([[User talk:Zzyzx11|talk]]) 00:30, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
{{pie chart
| label1 = Florida city
| value1 = 848
| label2 = Other known outgoing
| value2 = 778
| label3 = Anonymized outgoing
| value3 = 524
| label4 = Views only
| value4 = 114
}}
* Per [[WP:DPT]], let's have a look at some stats. [https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Orlando WikiNav for April] shows 2k people saw [[Orlando]] last month, and 848 proceeded to click the top listed item. Furthermore, there were just as many identifiable clicks to elsewhere, for a total of 1.6k identifiable outgoing clicks, and another 524 filtered (anonymized) clicks. I checked the clickstream archive and it looks very similar in previous months. [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=1&start=2024-05&end=2025-04&pages=Orlando Monthly page views] shows 2264 total views. I've rendered these numbers in a pie chart to the right to illustrate it a bit differently, maybe it's helpful.
: An argument could be made that maybe we're promoting the other topics by showing a list instead of short-circuiting to the city. Likewise, there could be some formatting changes done to give the [[MOS:DABCOMMON|top items]] a section. However, the second most popular option has consistently been the Virginia Woolf character, listed #7, which means readers have fairly consistently searched for this specific item - IOW they haven't just clicked on the "more promoted" list items #2, #3 etc. The statistical situation is fairly similar to what we observed before - we would previously be able to identify ~600 views/month going to other topics, and now we can identify ~700 of those. The effects of our list formatting aren't strong enough to really change organic reader behavior.
: An argument could also be made that maybe the anonymized clicks are disproportionately going towards the city. It's not clear why this would happen, though. Even if we generously assumed that about a half of them went to the city like the identifiable ones, the basic ratio would still remain around 50 : 50. Moving from a list to a redirect and hatnote in any such situation means we inconvenience the other half of the readers, which doesn't really make sense.
: This is a pretty clear indication that there is no primary topic by usage, even if the city is the single most popular topic.
: The long-term significance of other topics named Orlando, even if none are cities, was already discussed previously, and I see no new information to counter that. ('''Oppose''')
: Speaking of hatnotes, there's still a hatnote on top of the city article because of a vaguely ambiguous redirect, and it seems to have gotten as many as 199 clicks last month. Is this traffic meant for [[Orlando, Soweto]]? No other places in the list seem to come close to qualifying for the term "city". --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 07:38, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per the arguments of the previous AfD. America is not the centre of the universe, and the presence of theme parks is not a valid argument for priority above the notable cultural topics. [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 08:20, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. No evidence that [[Orlando, Florida]] is primary nor that anything has changed since the last RM, and plenty of reasonable evidence to the contrary. --[[User:Myceteae|<span style="font-family: verdana; color: blue;"><b>MYCETEAE</b></span>]] 🍄‍🟫—[[User talk:Myceteae|<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i>talk</i></span>]] 19:27, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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