View source for Talk:Oil paint

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==Requested move 1==
{{discussion-top}}
Painting oil → Oil paint – more common name. -- [[User:Kjkolb|Kjkolb]] 03:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
===Voting===
:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''

*'''Support''' better known name --[[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 22:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom.  [[User:Gene Nygaard|Gene Nygaard]] 17:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' --[[User:Lox|Lox]] ([[User talk:Lox|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Lox|c]]) 18:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as common sense. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]] 05:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as common sense. [[User:Thumbelina|Thumbelina]] 18:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments''

I've made some changes, but there are still sections that read as a polemic against the use of oil paint.  The vague suggestions that water-miscible oils and acrylic paints are less toxic than regular oils is wrong.  Perhaps the author thinks one has to use volatile spirits with true oil paints.  That's not the case.  Anyway, someone who understands this stuff should re-write it.  [[User:67.126.57.193|67.126.57.193]] 04:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC) -- Oops sorry. I was not logged in.  [[User:Jive Dadson|Jive Dadson]] 04:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Should be <strike>wikified, copy edited &</strike> merged into [[oil painting]], with a redirect. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 03:06, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Actually I think this should be moved to '''Oil Paint''' and this page should redirect there. The [[Oil Painting]] page should be kept for the actual art of painting. I will do this sometime if no one objects or does somthing else before. [[User:Sunja|sunja]] 10:14, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

:Most of the links are redirects from "oil paint" and some of these which are not are piped as "painting oil|oil paint" so that "oil paint" is what is displayed in the article.  [[User:Gene Nygaard|Gene Nygaard]] 17:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. &mdash;[[User:Nightstallion|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Nightstallion</span>]] [[User talk:Nightstallion|''(?)'']] 08:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

{{discussion-bottom}}

I'm not an artist, but how should [[Alkyd]] fit into this article? --[[User:Amillar|Amillar]] ([[User talk:Amillar|talk]]) 23:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

== Clean up ==
I've moved the contents around a little bit, but I've also taken a few things right out.  Does anyone mind? - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]]
:Mind?! Of course not! Great rewrite, very impressed - the article looks very nice now! --[[User:Lox|Lox]] ([[User talk:Lox|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Lox|c]]) 10:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


== Lead cancer to toxic ==
Lead is as far as I know and the wikipedia section on Lead states toxic, but not carcinogenous. Still a definite health issue; changed the sentence [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 00:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
:Good change, the [http://www.epa.gov U.S. Environmental Protection Agency] doesn't mention any carcinogenic effect of lead<sup>[http://www.epa.gov/lead/index.html]</sup>, though it does outline other health issues! --[[User:Lox|Lox]] ([[User talk:Lox|t]],[[Special:Contributions/Lox|c]]) 11:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
::My fault for just re-formatting what was there without checking the facts.  Sorry.  No reason that link shouldn't go on the page as a footnote, now. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]] 11:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The main cancer causer in oil paint is cadmium from what I've read. [[User:Artblogs|Artblogs]] ([[User talk:Artblogs|talk]]) 08:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
: Agree about cadmium, but the article read (long time ago) that lead (which was the main white pigment) was replaced because it was carcinogenic. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] ([[User talk:Arnoutf|talk]]) 09:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

== Proposed structure ==
With an eye towards this being a FAC, I propose the following structure to the article. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]] 05:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 1. Intro
 2. History
    2.1 First recorded use
    2.2 Decorative/practical uses
    2.3 Artistic use
 3. Carrier
    3.1 Characteristics
    3.2 Sources
    3.4 Extraction methods
    3.5 Additives
 4. Pigment
    4.1 Characteristics
    4.2 Historic
    4.3 Modern
 5. Modern usage
    5.1 Artistic
    5.2 Industrial
    5.3 Domestic

The main structure sounds good. Perhaps we need to add a single section on additivies: solvents (e.g. [[turpentine]]); fillers (e.g. some modern painters have been stuff into their paints to achieve more powerful [[impasto]] effect e.g. sand); and [[varnish]]. We might also consider some about technique of using the paint (brushes, linen etc) but that may be over the top

: If you get into the subject of supports (canvas or panels, for example), brushes, technique, and so forth, there will be a lot of misinformation and arguing, and it will never be anywhere close to complete. [[User:Jive Dadson|Jive Dadson]] 09:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

On the second level I have some issues that may confuse the issue. For example [[soot]], is about the oldest pigment ever used (prehistoric caves), but is also a cheap and powerful modern pigment for lampblack oil paint; so the division historic modern seems a bit strange. Although I guess you consider obsolete pigments as historic and new (synthetic) ones as modern. Furhter I wonder about Domestic and Industrial use of Oil paint nowadays. Most modern industrial/domestic paints are [[alkyd]] or [[acrylic paint]] based to my knowledgde
So then the strucutre would be more like this (it's only a suggestion)  
[[Special:Contributions/Arnoutf|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;"><sup>(c)</sup></span>]] [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 10:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 1. Intro
 2. History
    2.1 First recorded use
    2.2 Decorative/practical uses
    2.3 Artistic use
 3. Carrier
    3.1 Characteristics
    3.2 Sources
    3.3 Extraction methods
 4. Pigment
    4.1 Characteristics
    4.2 Historic
    4.3 Modern
 5. Additives
    5.1 Solvents
    5.2 Special effect additives
    5.3 Varnish
 6. Usage
    6.1 Health issues
    6.2 Artistic technigues
    6.2 Modern use


Perhaps we should also consider mergin the article on [[Water miscible oil paint]] into the oil paint article as this is (in my opinion) a sub article to it [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 10:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
:Ok, I do like having additives farmed out on it's own, and agree to the merge suggested above. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]] 06:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

=== 10 July 2011, References moved from main page ===
{{Anchor|10July2011}}
I moved the following from the main page while working on the overall structure, including the reference. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|Aaron Brenneman]] ([[User talk:Aaron Brenneman|talk]]) 08:42, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
<blockquote>
Many modern paint manufacturers test for [[Lightfastness#Paint_Lightfastness|lightfastness]], how well a pigment retains its color when exposed to light.  The results of these tests are printed on the paint tube's label, often on the back with the pigment list.

Artists can also buy empty tubes and fill them with paint. The filling is done through the bottom. Then the bottom is folded and crimped. Paint for later use is accessed through the screw cap at the other end — as usual. This can be useful for having on hand a mixed color that is found to be a good starting point for mixing a color within a commonly used range, as concerns an artist's personal preferences.<ref>The Painter's Craft; Ralph Mayer; {{ISBN|978-0140468953}}</ref>
</blockquote>

Also took out these, moving here as possible references. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|Aaron Brenneman]] ([[User talk:Aaron Brenneman|talk]]) 09:09, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
<small>
*"[http://www.cyberlipid.org/perox/oxid0011.htm History of Oil Paint]." ''Cyberlipid Center''.
*"[http://www.realcolorwheel.com/1mediums.htm#MEDIUMS,%20TURPENTINE%20AND%20OIL History of Painting Mediums]." ''Real Color Wheel''.
*"[http://www.sanders-studios.com/instruction/tutorials/historyanddefinitions/historyofoils.html#anchorhistory A Brief History]." ''Sanders-Studios.com''.
*"[http://www.danielsmith.com/Learn/Articles/Evolution-of-Oil-Paint-Colors.asp The Evolution of Oil Color]." ''[[Daniel Smith Artists' Materials]]''.
*“Autoxidation.” McGraw Hill Encyclopedia. 8th ed. 1997.
*[http://www.peggyflanders.com Flanders, Peggy J.], [http://www.peggyflanders.com/Information/how_oils_dry.htm How Oils Dry], 5 May 2006.
*Friedman, Ann, et al., [http://www.worldbookonline.com/wb/Article?id=ar410780 Painting],  [http://www.worldbookonline.com World Book online], 46 Stetson St. #5 	Brookline, MA. 10 May 2006. 
*[http://www.cyberlipid.org/perox/oxid0011.htm History of Oil Paint], [http://www.cyberlipid.org CyberLipid.org], 5 May 2006. 
*Mecklenburg, Marion, [http://www.thepaintershandbook.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=59&sid=1af793cece44ccf8743ba531850d0cda Autoxidation of Oil], 13 Jan 2006. [http://www.thepaintershandbook.org The Painter's Handbook], Mark David Gottsegen.  11 June 2006.
*van den Berg, Jorit D.J., {{cite web|url= http://www.amolf.nl/research/biomacromolecular_mass_spectrometry/molart/highlights_www.pdf |title=Mobile and Stationary Phases in Traditional Aged Oil Paint }}&nbsp;{{small|(3.08&nbsp;[[Mebibyte|MiB]])}}, [http://www.amolf.nl MOLART] 2002. 8 May 2006
</small>

{{reflist-talk}}

== To do ==
I've added one per [[Wikipedia:To-do list]] but am not to sure about how it works... - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<span style="color:#2f4f4f;">brenneman</span>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t)</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)</sup>]] 05:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

== Ad-like ==

The copy in [[Oil paint#20th and 21st century carriers|20th and 21st century carriers]] strikes me as a bit ad-like. Reads almost like an ad for Winsor & Newton, except insofar as it mentions one other brand. What do others think? - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Tend to agree. Also this section is very negative on the traditional oil paint. Is the consensus really that the stuff should better be replaced (or is this more the opinion of the brands sporting the alternatives). There are probably also negative aspects of the new carriers (I could e.g. imagine that drying time is changed because of the water, or that the final layer of paint has different qualities). I think if any negative sides exist they should be discussed. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 14:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd welcome someone else taking this on, because it is an area where I am not expert. If I take it on, it may be just to remove the section. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 16:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

: I split up the section, retaining the valuable information (under toxidity and carrier and the new heading advantages disadvantages). I removed reference to the mentioned brands. I hope everyone agrees [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 17:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

: There is still a hint that using traditional oil paint requires the use of volatile thinners and cleaners. That is not the case.  One can use oil to thin the paint if necessary (perhaps a thin drying oil like walnut).  One can clean the brushes with plain soap and water.  That is exactly what I do, in fact. One of the big disadvantages of the water miscible stuff is how sticky it gets.  Some brands are like glue.  There's one brand that's recognized by a lot of people as clearly the best in that repect, but I do not think it is the one that was "advertized." [[User:Jive Dadson|Jive Dadson]] 09:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:: I think volatile thinners (turpentine) and cleaners (white spirit or similar) are still in wide use. So they warrant discussion [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 09:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::: I agree.  I only take exception to the assertion or implication that one must use them to paint with and clean up traditional oil paint. I have painted many a picture without using any spirits.  I always clean my brushes with soap and water.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jive Dadson|Jive Dadson]] ([[User talk:Jive Dadson|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jive Dadson|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:: Ok, I gather it is more about toning down then actual removal of claims, I can agree with that (I usually just rinse my brushes in (re-sued) white spirit to get rid of most oil and pigments after that I do the thorough cleaning with soap&water). I wonder about the relevance of talking about California health labelling for an international encyclopedia though. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 10:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

/* Ad-like */  On the contrary, the article ought to contain information and comparisons on the different commercial brands available. Any true artist will know, or want to know, the differences in characteristics and performance between the brands, and which established, or famous, or historical, or successful artists use which brands, and why? Wikipedia should be exactly the place to find such objectively unbiased information, instead of this redundant and unhelpful attitude against commercial brand-naming. Though I concede that such practical information may be best placed under a separate page or heading, perhaps in the form of the results of a survey of which well-known artists use which brands. [[User:Likeamanshand|Likeamanshand]] ([[User talk:Likeamanshand|talk]]) 09:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

==Animation with oil paints==
I wonder if it would be possible to somehow incorporate info on [[paint-on-glass animation]] into this article.  It's certainly an interesting use of the properties of oil paints, but I'm not sure how best to add it in. [[User:Esn|Esn]] 09:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
:Ok, I looked at it and realized that the opening paragraph was probably the best place.  Sorry about this post. [[User:Esn|Esn]] 09:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

== Merge from History of Oil paint ==

The article [[history of oil paint]] is essentially a duplicate of this. I propose the content should be merged here and the page turned into a redirect to this one. I do not know anything about paint so it would be better if someone else did the merge but I'll have a go if no-one else does.--[[User:NHSavage|NHSavage]] 20:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

'''Support''' merge.  [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 20:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Definitely needs doing. [[User:CarrotMan|CarrotMan]] 07:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


I went ahead and merged it. The former "History of oil paint" article had a ton of information about carriers and drying that was already in this article word-for-word, so I researched it and rewrote it. I'm not exactly an art expert, so I hope it's okay. [[User:IrisWings|IrisWings]] 07:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

== Historical formulas ==

Have those historical formulas been checked out?  Through the years, many people have proclaimed to know what substances the old masters used, only to be proven wrong by science.  Has science confirmed that Rubens used megilp made from walnut oil, or is there only that one ancient paper that says so? I seem to remember reading that a restorer at the Met Museum of Art said that Rubens used plain linseed oil with perhaps some turps. [[User:Jive Dadson|Jive Dadson]] 10:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

: I agree, this section severely lack [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citations]]. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] 10:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

: I agree. This section is hopelessly outdated and I would love to delete it until someone can write something better. For now I have added a qualification sentence "The technical history of the introduction and development of oil paint, and the date of introduction of various additives (driers, thinners) is still -despite intense research over a long period - not well understood. The literature abounds with incorrect theories and information: in general, anything published before 1950 is to be treated with extreme scepticism.".  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.240.1.21|81.240.1.21]] ([[User talk:81.240.1.21|talk]]) 13:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==New carriers==
I have altered the petty comment questioning the expressive qualities of new carriers of pigment (acrylic, polyester, etc.)
Different paint binders should be thought of as different mediums. - Greengoat <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:68.236.168.125|68.236.168.125]] ([[User talk:68.236.168.125|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.236.168.125|contribs]]){{#if:22 March 2007|&#32;22 March 2007|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Household paint ==

By far the biggest use of oil paint is as household gloss paint, much used on woodwork, aka alkyd paint. But not a single mention of it here.
[[Special:Contributions/82.31.207.100|82.31.207.100]] ([[User talk:82.31.207.100|talk]]) 08:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
: That is because Alkyd not Oil is the binder. [[User:Arnoutf|Arnoutf]] ([[User talk:Arnoutf|talk]]) 10:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

== Toxicity section material removed ==

::''Relevant content guideline is [[Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles]] ''
::''Relevant policy [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue_weight]] ''
I've removed the below plus a lot of unsourced text. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|Aaron Brenneman]] ([[User talk:Aaron Brenneman|talk]]) 09:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC) 
<blockquote>
Thinners such as [[turpentine]] and [[white spirit]] are flammable, carcinogenic, and can cause acute pulmonary distress. Some of them, particularly the poor grades of turpentine, have a strong odor, but even the more refined thinners such as odorless mineral spirits can be harmful to the health if used inappropriately. But because of the lack of adequate testing of these substances, the EPA has not made that determination, and no empirical evidence exists for this claim. [http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0682.htm]
</blockquote>

== surface covering ==

{{bias}}
There needs to be an increase in the coverage of oil paints for surface coverings as a protectant or interior design feature. As this type of paint has a long history of use, unlike modern alkyd or acrylic paints, there should be quite a bit to cover. I do note that some of this coverage already exists at [[lead paint]]. [[Special:Contributions/70.49.127.65|70.49.127.65]] ([[User talk:70.49.127.65|talk]]) 00:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
:This article is about oil paint's use in the fine arts. [[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT]] is no reason for this claim of bias. See [[House painter and decorator]] for it's industrial use...[[User:Modernist|Modernist]] ([[User talk:Modernist|talk]]) 13:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
::[[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT]] seems like a little strong response to say to a benign, legitimate, and welcome question.  The article is about oil paint.  99.99+% of oil paint is used for surface coating. I agree with 70.49.127.65.  [[WP:OWN]] does not apply, either.--[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]] ([[User talk:Smokefoot|talk]]) 13:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
:::So add a section on wall covering...[[User:Modernist|Modernist]] ([[User talk:Modernist|talk]]) 13:39, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

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