View source for Talk:Offices in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth

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Lists are always more useful if they are preceded by an introductory paragraph giving the reader some context (dates, for a start). Lists are scarcely part of Wikipedia until the items in them have some linking. This is doubtless on the way. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 17:35, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Permission granted ==

I hereby give Wikipedia permission to use and reproduce all and any materials from my article '163xPolishTitles' [http://1632.org/1632Slush/163xPolishTitles.doc].  --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] 19:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== Division ==
How about dividing this article onto several smaller ones? All of us who are preparing biographical articles on various members of [[szlachta]] are often linking the titles they held - and they all lead to this monstruous article. How about preparing a set of small stub-like articles saying that:

'''''Blahblahblah''' was one of the titles used in the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]. It was awarded to.... for....; see also: [[Offices in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]'' and place all of such stubs in one category, let's say [[:Category:Offices in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]? [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 08:19, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

:Tak, najlepiej zrobic odzielne ale rowniez pozostawic ten jeden w calosci. Narazie nieistniejace artyuly o marshalkach, kanclerzach itd, przekierunkowalem tutaj. Pare zrobilem jak np [[Stolnik]], [[Podczaszy]] - ale to kropla w morzu :) .--[[User:Emax|Emax]] 08:39, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

:: Popieram Emaxa, zeby ten artykul zostawic w calosci. Ale faktycznie przydalby sie mu cleanup (zwlaszcza bold w tekscie mnie denerwuje), i moze przeniesienie wszystkich list w jedno miejsce - lub faktycznie do osobnego artykulu? ([[List of official titles in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]?)--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] 12:31, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:::Masz racje, liste mozna przeniesc do odzielnego artykulu.--[[User:Emax|Emax]] 19:07, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, since you decided not to speak English... Lista jako taka powinna dopiero powsta&#263;. Póki co nie mamy listy, tylko baaaardzo d&#322;ugi artyku&#322;, a to nie to samo.
:Oczywi&#347;cie, jaka&#347; centralna instancja odwo&#322;awcza by&#322;aby nie od rzeczy, ale nie nale&#380;y da&#263; si&#281; zwariowa&#263;... [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 01:49, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

:Moze zrobic categorie "Polish titles" lub "Polish offices"? Bo raz, wiekszosc istniala przed RON (i istnieje nadal, jak np Marszalek sejmu), a po drugie [[:Category:Offices in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]] jest dosc dlugie.--[[User:Emax|Emax]] 01:01, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
::Sounds good. Czy sa jakies podobne kategorie? Np. [[:Category:Official titles]]? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]] 13:29, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::Chyba jest tylko [[:Category:Titles]]--[[User:Emax|Emax]] 13:41, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
::::No to wystarczy, mozemy zrobic Polish Titles jako podkategorie tej kategorii. Jestem za. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]] 14:02, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::::Jeszcze jedna propozycja :) Moze zrobic [[:Category:Polish titles and military ranks]] ?--[[User:Emax|Emax]] 17:15, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
::::::I think that [[:Category:Polish titles]] would be enough.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 22:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
:::::::How about a second [[:Category:Polish military ranks]], if there isn't one?  ''[[Hetman]]'' might be listed in ''both'' categories.  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 23:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

==Kings==
Is the Crown an Office of the Commonwealth? If not, why not? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 04:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
:Hmm, I guess that's kind of a technical question. Kings were elected, as were few official (members of the [[Crown Tribunal]]. Maybe we can say that the King was the highest official, we need to define [[offical]] first. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 22:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
::The [[King of Poland]] was the [[chief executive]] of the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]].  He was also, as [[Grand Duke of Lithuania]], the ''[[ex officio]]'' [[Head of state|sovereign]] of the [[Grand Duchy of Lithuania]].  There was no other king within the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]].  Therefore, any historical niceties aside, it is much less misleading to consider him the King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth than merely the [[King of Poland]] (just as the writ of Britain's [[Prince of Wales]], such as it is, is not in fact limited to [[Wales]]).  Should one object that the Polish-Lithuanian King was not actually ''called'' that, then for that matter neither was the "[[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]]" actually called ''that''.  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 23:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

==Names==
This article needs a copyedit - for example, we should decide whether to use English translations or Polish names I'd prefer Polish names, like [[kanclerz]] to [[chancellor]], as kanclerz allows us to have a more specific article. But the alternative - [[Chancellor (Poland)]] is also viable. Any comments?--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 22:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
:Wherever a clear English [[Dynamic and formal equivalence|equivalent]] — especially a [[cognate]] term — exists, it's best to use that.  Only "[[untranslatability|untranslatable]]" expressions should be imported into the [[target language]].  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 23:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
::Could you list those which have a clear equivalent and others? I am really having trouble with miecznik / sword-bearer and such and deciding whether they are equivalent or not.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 00:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

For future reference - and because it's on my 'to do list', eventually - this is the list of current subarticles/redirects:
: English:
:: [[Assessor]] - I don't expect this to be expanded soon.
:: [[Castellan]] - a para on Polish castellans in the general stub article. Should we eventually create [[Kasztelan]] or [[Castellan (Poland)]]?
: Polish - all the others (from [[:Category:Polish titles]]).
--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 00:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

My proposal is to use Polish name (English translation name in parenthesis) on the first use, the use Polish name only, and have the articles at Polish names. I just don't like the current state which is quite chaotic. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 00:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

==Chancellery "regent"==
Is the original Polish in fact "''regent''," or perhaps something like "''rejent''"?

Suggest giving the original Polish terms, at the first mentions of PLC officers.  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 19:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:It was ''[[rejens]]'' (source: Bielewicz). I agree with this suggestion.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 16:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

==Failed Good Article==
There are too many lists, not enough pictures or references. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 16:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

==[[Podskarbi]]==
Shouldn't he be translated as ''Deputy Treasurer'', if ''podkanclerz(y)'' is translated as ''Deputy Chancellor''? There was no full ''Skarbnik'' (''Treasuer'') in PLC to add to the confusion, but the adjective ''Grand'' (''wielki'') was sometimes added to this, making it a rather funny if again confusing combinatio of 'podskarbi wielki' (Grand Lesser Treasurer, or Grand Deputy Treasuer.)--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 16:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

==Deputy vs. Lesser==
Just wondering if there is a convention that 'pod' should be in titles translated as deputy instead of lesser? Not that I mind either way, but it would be good to have a naming convention for consistency.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 17:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Dang. I don't have all day to try figure out how to post a comment on Wikipedia - something about looking for a small + sign at the top. So maybe someone could write me at www.zverte.com and fix this post. I have noticed that two words are translated as 'cupbearer' - podczaszy and cześnik but podczaszy is also translated 'deputy cupbearer. The Lithuanian translations are pataurininkis (podczaszy) and taurininkas (cześnik) where pa would translate as deputy or lesser. This needs to be resolved in some manner. Thanks. ([[User:Abakan|Abakan]] 21:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC))

==Strange senators==
I cannot find a reference that the following were indeed senatorial offices:
# Marszałek Izby poselkiej — Marshal of the Chamber of Deputies
# Generał wielkopolski — General of Greater Poland
# Marszałek Trybunału Koronnego — Marshal of the Crown Tribunal
# Marszałek Trybunału Litewskiego — Marshal of the Lithuanian Tribunal
--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 17:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

==Revision==
I've completed a preliminary revision of this article, inserting some intralinear questions regarding officials' titles and functions.  I was able to locate or guess most [[Dynamic and formal equivalence|English equivalents]].  In some places, where I didn't have a clue, I left the questionable clause or phrase unchanged, rather than guess wildly.  A thorough review of the article, as it now stands, would be in order, to ensure accuracy.  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 11:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
:I think everything up to 'District offices' is correct, although some copyediting - like ensuring that both Polish and English names are used on the first instance, making sure all names have Polish versions for verifications and such may still be needed. For District offices, I think there is some confusion especially regarding different [[starosta]] types. I'll read up on that and try to expand and clarify the starosta in PLC issue, time permiting.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 23:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
::The section on "''District'' offices," meaning ''urzędy w prowincyjach'' ([[18th century|18th-century]] spelling), refers to ''gród'' and ''miasto'' (it would be well, at the outset, to explicitly ''use'' these Polish words).  Are we speaking here of ''two'' distinct types of communities — perhaps, "castle" and "town"?  Or are these essentially synonyms in the period under discussion (the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]])?[[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 00:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
:::Something to research. Perhaps [[Gord (Slavic settlement)]] can prove useful to us?--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 01:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
::Another potential terminological pitfall to watch out for (though I think, in general, it's clarified by context):  in English, "[[court (disambiguation)|court]]" may mean either ''dwór'' or ''sąd''.  [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 00:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

==Not senators==
I am pretty sure that the below posts are not senatorial offices, so I am moving them here till we figure out where to add them:--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 17:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
* '''''Marszałek Sejmu''''' — Marshal of the Chamber of Deputies
* '''''[[Generał wielkopolski]]''''' — General of Greater Poland
* '''''Marszałek Trybunału Koronnego''''' — Marshal of the [[Crown Tribunal]]
* '''''Marszałek Trybunału Litewskiego''''' — Marshal of the Lithuanian Tribunal

==List of specific offices==
[[User:Piotrus/Sandbox/163x#List_of_officials|At my sandbox]] I have prepared lists of voivodes, castellans and other officials. I have not moved it to mainspace yet, because I am still thinking about organisation of the article. Eventually I'd like to easily find on Wiki lists of offices and office holders divided by time (chronologically) and place (geographically), not only hierachicaly (as the current article has it). But adding my current lists to this article would increase its size making it rather ugly. I will be creating stubs soon, but renaming and moving is likely: any advice appreciated.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 17:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
:[[Voivodes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]] - done.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 03:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

== Koniuszy translation ==
Why is koniuszy translated as [[Equerry]] instead of [[Master of the Horse]]?--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|<sup style="color:green;">Talk</sup>]] 03:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

== Rotmistrz ==

The text reads:"Rotmistrz — Commander of an infantry or cavalry '''regiment'''".
Rota, however was not a regiment, but a company, and Rotmistrz was only exceptionally assigned the duties of a regiment commander.
--[[User:Jidu Boite|Jidu Boite]] ([[User talk:Jidu Boite|talk]]) 13:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

== Latin ==

I would like to point out that the official language of the Republic until 1795 was Latin. Therefore all the offices listed have Latin names, which were regularly used in official documents, but are missing in this article. -[[Special:Contributions/159.205.240.233|159.205.240.233]] ([[User talk:159.205.240.233|talk]]) 21:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

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