View source for Talk:Obeah

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==Origins of the term==
Wiktionary

"Obeah" is not a "derogatory term."  It's an actual religion, separate from but similar to Voodoo. -- [[User:Beginning|Beginning]]

Obeah (also 'obia') is a term used to describe a myriad of shamanistic practices derived from different regions in Africa and conducted by independent ritual specialists. To my knowledge, there is no derogatory connotation to this term. In fact, research has shown that the term is probably related to the Igbo word, ''dbia'', which refers to an 'adept'/'master' of knowledge and wisdom<ref>Brown 2003</ref>. [[User:Vivitutu|Vivitutu]] ([[User talk:Vivitutu|talk]]) 18:12, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Thelema and Obeah material removed ==

The Obeah article now begins with this: "This article is about West Indian religion and magic. For obeah within the context of [[Thelema]], see [[Obeah and Wanga]]."  And it ends with "See also . . . [[Obeah and Wanga]] - the phrase 'Obeah and Wanga' as interpreted in [[Thelema]."  These articles are now clearly distinct.  Every book that mentions Obeah cannot be included here.  Hundreds of books, perhaps thousands, discuss Obeah, and we should not lead readers astray by giving a special section to one of those books, which mentions Obeah in one of its passages.  See the newly renovated section on Obeah in fiction and poetry for a more appropriate approach.

What follows below is the previous debate of this issue. [[User:Josh a brewer|Josh a brewer]] 19:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)      
 
I am going to remove the section about Thelema from the Obeah page, replacing it with a short mention. I am also going to remove the book ref to Crowley. My reasoning is as follows:

Obeah is Jamaican folk magic. Thelema has nothing to do with Obeah. Aleister Crowley mentioned both Obeah (Jamaican folk magic derived from the Congo) and wanga (the latter a term most often found in Haitian Voodoo, meaning a magical charm packet derived from West Africa) in one sentence in one book. The fact that he threw Jamaican and Haitian terms -- or, if you will Congo and Benin -- terms together indiscriminately indicates his level of outsidership and non-practitioner status with respect to Obeah.

It's nice that Thelemites are somewhat interested in Congo magic, but since Crowley really knew nothing about it himself, having this lengthy Thelemitic tail wagging the Obeah dog here is a mistake.

However, the text is well enough written that i would not wish to lose it -- so i am carrying it to the Thelema talk page, where the Thelema people can decide what to do with it. Just please, do not bring it back to the Obeah page; it is not relevant here beyond the brief mention i will give to Crowley.

This message is duplicated at the Thelema talk page.

Thanks.

Catherineyronwode 22:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Frater5"

I see no real reason why it was moved. I'm about to suggest it be moved back. Catherines POV is apparent here. 

[[User:SynergeticMaggot|Zos]] 08:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Also I'd like to point out that it doesnt matter if Crowley understood the word or not. What matters is that he gave usage of it. 

1. A form of religious belief of African origin, practiced in some parts of the West Indies, Jamaica, and nearby tropical America, involving sorcery.

Crowley uses this similarly to mean "acts", and also magick in the secret light of acts. Its irrelevant whether or not you agree with it. The usage is simular, and is written by a published author. 

I'm also going to add some citations needed notes to some of this, as well as take "comments" off.

[[User:SynergeticMaggot|Zos]] 09:08, 19 May 2006 (UT)

don't they call ghosts duppies in Jamaican obeah?  (eleanor johnson)

== Valeren Redirect ==

Why does "valeren" redirect here?  Obeah was used as the name of a discipline for [[Vampire: The Masquerade]], and the discipline had two forms, the other of which was called "Valeren".  It has no connection whatsoever to the religious practice of Obeah.  --[[Special:Contributions/138.163.0.44|138.163.0.44]] ([[User talk:138.163.0.44|talk]]) 14:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

== NPOV dispute [-The effects of Obeah'- and -Myths and Misconceptions-] ==

'''From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view-'''<br />
"Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By 'fact' we mean 'a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute.'<br />
<br />
'''In "The effects of Obeah'", this article states-'''<br />
"As with any undeniable metaphysical power the effects of Obeah are very real and have been documented."<br />
'''This is clearly an opinion, as plenty of things have been documented and have not been real. Also, the use of the term undeniable is not just opinionated but individually opinionated.'''<br />
<br />
'''In "Myths and Misconceptions", this article states-'''<br />
"The powers of a true Obeah Man are undeniable, and as such yes he is a force to be reckoned with... He has at his command a full range of tools, and abilities to manipulate metaphysical and spiritual energies at the behest of the deities. This gives him the power to destroy or create. His craft can be deadly, or compassionate."<br />
'''Oh, come on. I'd call that way above and beyond asserting the opinions themselves. Completely not neutral.'''  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Prettyb0y|Prettyb0y]] ([[User talk:Prettyb0y|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prettyb0y|contribs]]) 05:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I have removed the near-vandalism that was placed under the article by one rogue user.  This should resolve the NPOV dispute.  It seems that the person is a strong believer in Obeah, which rendered much of their contribution patently biased.  [[User:Josh a brewer|Josh a brewer]] ([[User talk:Josh a brewer|talk]]) 18:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

== Related to Science? ==

One of my friends is from Jamaica, and he told me once that ritual magic in his home country is called obeah, "or some folks call it science."

Is 'science' a way of describing Obeah practices, or does it refer to a related but different set of beliefs and practices(Just as Obeah and Voudun are related but different)? I'm very curious. I hope someone knows.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.167.177.14|74.167.177.14]] ([[User talk:74.167.177.14|talk]]) 09:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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In the Caribbean ideas and phrases are sometimes coded so that other groups of people do not know what you are talking about. The term eventually catches on and it becomes a word everyone uses.  

One person probably used it to refer to obeah and it probably caught on, and eventually went mainstream. Another example would be when adults want to talk about sex, and kids aware around,  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Starbwoy|Starbwoy]] ([[User talk:Starbwoy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Starbwoy|contribs]]) 07:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Another possible derivation of the term 'obeah' interpreted as 'science' could be that the term 'obeah' is derived from the colloquial word 'dbia' which translates to "an 'adept' or 'master' of knowledge and wisdom."<ref>Spiritual Terror in Jamaican Slave Society by Vincent Brown</ref>. It is possible that the literal translation of the word from the native tongue has developed to be interpreted as a science, or it is possible that people believed that the practices had healing powers thus earning it the Western interpretation of 'science'.

{{reflist-talk}}

== Specific Locations Should Be Removed ==

I wanted to undo the revision (as of 14:13, 29 September 2008), because it simply changed the islands, but there are no citations in this section in either case.  I happen to know that some of the claims are based on fact, but that doesn't make them verifiable.  And these details are not location-based or bound to a single island, couple of islands, or Windward/Leeward portions of the archipelago.  What should be done?  We could remove the section entirely or rename it, but ideally, someone would cite relevant and reliable sources for the information found in the section that is now called "Obeah in Trinidad and Tobago." At the very least, the section should be renamed. [[User:Josh a brewer|Josh a brewer]] ([[User talk:Josh a brewer|talk]]) 23:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

== Obeah Trinidad / Guyana ==

Needs to be badly fixed. It's a mess. Trinis seem to think they the only country have the stilt walkers, which is not true. They appear in other countries, much like Mother Sally.  
Are jumbies seen as Obeah in Trinidad?. Is this true?

In guyana...jumbie just means ghost/spirit, and it is referred to as such by everyone, and has no special connection to obeah. I thought it was the same in the rest of the Caribbean

In Guyana the term obeah is seen a very negative, though people still supposedly do/use it. You would not want to be thought of as "wok obeah" on someone. It is used in talk/ language as doing harm rather that good. In in the rural parts of Guyana the African folk religion was very strong, and some people would have rituals similar to Santeria, (without the cutting of chicken heads) with everyone in white, with drumming, and anyone from the village can go. Spirits would get into people and they would dance. THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED OBEAH...again as obeah is considered to be negative  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Starbwoy|Starbwoy]] ([[User talk:Starbwoy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Starbwoy|contribs]]) 07:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Shamanism category and link ==
{{archive top|1=Closing per a [[WP:ANRFC]] request.<br/>There is a clear (albeit limited) consensus that this article shouldn't be in {{cat|Shamanism of the Americas}}. [[User:Armbrust|Armbrust]] <sup>[[User talk:Armbrust|<span style="color:#E3A857;">The</span> <span style="color:#008000;">Homunculus</span>]]</sup>}}
Should this article be in [[:Category:Shamanism of the Americas]]? <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 18:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

* My feeling is "no", because no reliable sources are cited as saying so. There's just a link to a personal homepage at Angelfire that says this, and it does not appear to be something we should be including per [[WP:EL]] in the first place.  Just because something isn't Judeo-Christian in all its particulars doesn't automatically make it [[shamanism]], a term that is widely misapplied and has a specific meaning in [[cultural anthropology]] and associated study.  It is possible that some sources do suggest Obeah is shamanic, but they'd need to be cited, and only [[WP:DUE]] weight should be given to such an assessment. We're not in a position to declare it and categorize it as shamanic based on one person's [[WP:SPS]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 18:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
* I guess no, since nobody's produced a source. Not sure why it needed an RFC. [[User:Rolf h nelson|Rolf H Nelson]] ([[User talk:Rolf h nelson|talk]]) 16:47, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Obi Women  ==

One thing this page fails to highlight is the importance of obeah as a method of agency, especially for Black women. While historic descriptions of this time tend to highlight gender differences in slave cultures, obi women were allowed to transcend gender boundaries, often featured as revolutionary. In many literatures, obi women stood out among other women as capable and independent, separate from other descriptions of women at this time. This page could better highlight the use of obeah and the historic descriptions of the practice of obeah in literature. 
[[User:Dhytaylor|Dhytaylor]] ([[User talk:Dhytaylor|talk]]) 15:02, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

== Article Rewrite ==

I created a [[Talk:Obeah/Draft|workspace]] so that those interested can help improve the article.

[[User:Astronyte|Astronyte]] ([[User talk:Astronyte|talk]]) 22:21, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

== Jamaican? ==

Would it be possible to re categorise this from "Afro-Jamaican into an actually accurate and non Jamaican centric term like British West Indian? Actually most of the articles regarding the British West Indies and pan-caribbean subjects have been defaced to have some sort of pro-Jamaican tinge which has no basis in reality. Obeah was well known in Barbados in the early 1800s as per "Barbados Assembly and Council, 30/18, no. 262, An Act for the Punishment of Such Slaves asShall be Found Practising Obeah, November 4, 1806" from SLAVE MEDICINE AND OBEAH IN BARBADOS, CIRCA 1650 TO 1834 by Jerome S. Handler

In fact according to the same source it was known there from the late 1700s "In the late 1780s, for example,Brathwaite reported the existence of Obeah practitioners, but asserted that during the preceding twenty years their "number has diminished greatly."

In fact Obeah is still practised in Barbados (and all over the West Indies) today http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/16687/voodoo-obeah-popular

This is deeply annoying because it is inaccurate and can only be seen as Jamaican propaganda. It would be great if all West Indian or Caribbean articles (particularly for the British West Indies) could be closely monitored for this kind of vandalism because the problem is extensive. I thought that wikipedia was supposed to be an encyclopedia, I didn't realise it was a brochure for any country to the detriment of facts. [[User:Iynx|Iynx]] ([[User talk:Iynx|talk]]) 22:18, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

== Merge proposal ==
{{Discussion top|result=There is '''no consensus''' for a merge. <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">—[[User:Compassionate727|Compassionate727]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Compassionate727|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/Compassionate727|C]])</sup></span> 01:59, 7 February 2025 (UTC)}}
Some time ago I redirected [[Obeah and wanga]] to this page simply because the former is an entire page dedicated to what amounts to a couple of references in Crowley's work.

I think it is clear -- and until relatively recently, thought it was uncontroversial -- that this page should essentially be a parenthetical or at most, a very short section on the larger [[Obeah]] page. There is nothing substantial that should be covered separately and based on the discussion above (section [[Talk:Obeah#Thelema and Obeah material removed|Thelema and Obeah material removed]]) it was originally created to keep the obeah page 'pure,' which is not exactly a goal of Wikipedia these days.

In short: I propose merging [[Obeah and wanga]] into [[Obeah]]. [[User:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">wound theology</span>]][[User talk:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:red; padding:2px;">◈</span>]] 12:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

*I '''oppose''' the merge. [[User:Skyerise|Skyerise]] ([[User talk:Skyerise|talk]]) 13:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Do you have any rationale? You've been editing Wikipedia to know that [[WP:DEMOCRACY|Wikipedia is not a democracy]]. [[User:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">wound theology</span>]][[User talk:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:red; padding:2px;">◈</span>]] 14:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*::I agree with the arguments given to split it in the first place. I would have thought that obvious. [[User:Skyerise|Skyerise]] ([[User talk:Skyerise|talk]]) 14:28, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

:'''Support''' merge. I'm unconvinced it's notable enough on its own, rather than being a footnote in an article about Thelema or the main Obeah article. I would reconsider if @[[User:Skyerise|Skyerise]] was able to present well-sourced draft of a substantially more detailed and standalone article. At the moment, it's basically a dictionary definition and Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTADICTIONARY]]. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 16:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

*'''Strong oppose''' the merge. The use of the term "Obeah" in Thelema really has nothing to do with Obeah as a Caribbean religious practice at all. Pushing that material into this article will look out of place and off-topic; as a result, it will surely get deleted. Keep them separate. If there are concerns about the notability of the "Obeah and wanga" article then a separate discussion could be launched about its potential deletion, however I think merging the two articles is a big mistake. [[User:Midnightblueowl|Midnightblueowl]] ([[User talk:Midnightblueowl|talk]]) 22:37, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
*:As it stands, the page concerns very roundabout mentions of obeah and wanga rather than anything justifying an entirely separate page. If not merged into Obeah, then somewhere else. [[User:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px;">wound theology</span>]][[User talk:Wound theology|<span style="background:black; color:red; padding:2px;">◈</span>]] 07:14, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

It's been more than 30 days, I suggest this merge proposal be closed as '''no merge'''. [[User:Skyerise|Skyerise]] ([[User talk:Skyerise|talk]]) 12:28, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}