View source for Talk:Norm Macdonald/Archive 1

{{tan}}
==Initial text==
why isn't there anything in here about all of the anti-transgendered stuff he said on weekend update?? i think the fact that he has beef with the queer community should DEFINITLEY be on here, since adolf hitler's page is all about him hating/slaughtering jews, you know? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.65.25.220|67.65.25.220]] ([[User talk:67.65.25.220#top|talk]]) 03:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)</small>

if this is true, give proof by adding a link to any evidence of such things. 
thanks
[[User:Sumguy333|Sumguy333]] 23:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Could someone mention Norm's appearance on the celebrity edition of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?  He surpassed all the other contestants and only did not win the full million because a nervous Regis Philbin talked him into walking away before he could guess the correct answer to the final question. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.18.35.37|4.18.35.37]] ([[User talk:4.18.35.37#top|talk]]) 22:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)</small>

==Bad grammar==
"footballer-turned-acquitted of all charges" is bad grammar and nonsensical usage to boot, so I've removed it.  I understand what the editor was likely trying to do, namely remove perceived bias from the previous statement "footballer-turned-suspected murderer".  I'm going to play grammar gestapo here and remove that reference as well, not for bias as he was suspected of murder at the time Norm was released from SNL, but because of the way it was worded.  If the author wants to reintroduce this text, please rewrite it into more formal English.  [[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 16:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

== Neil MacDonald ==

Anyone know if this guy  [[Neil MacDonald]] is really Norm's brother? 
--[[User:Daniel Lotspeich|Daniel Lotspeich]] 01:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
:From http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005172/bio
::''Middle child of three boys; his brothers Leslie and [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1307531/ Neil MacDonald] are both newscasters for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation''
:From http://www.tv.com/person/1475/summary.html
::''Norm's two siblings, Neil and Leslie, are both Canadian newscasters.''
:From http://www.nndb.com/people/707/000022641/
::''Brother: Neil MacDonald (CBC newscaster)''
:Need more proof? ~⌈[[User:Markaci|Mar]][[User_talk:Markaci|'''ka''']][[Special:Contributions/Markaci|''ci'']]⌋ <small>2005-10-14 T 02:02:43 Z</small>

{{Clear}}
== Filmography ==
Added a filmography. Only includes movies at the moment, but maybe someone wants to expand on it to include his numerous television appearences. --[[User:Relax Relapse|Relax Relapse]] 23:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
==Assessment==
I have assessed this as Start Class, as it contains more detail and information than would be expected of a Stub, but requires more cleanup, inline citations and referencing. I have assessed this as Mid importance, as I do feel that the subject of this article is well-known outside of Canada. Cheers, [[User:Canadian Paul|CP]] 17:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== WikiProject class rating==
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. [[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 14:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

== Celebrity Millionaire ==

The article should include mention of his appearance on Celebrity Who Wants to be a Millionaire.  I don't know the date of his appearance.  He was the last one to make it to the stage because of his (purposely?) poor performance on the fastest finger questions.  However, once on stage he did very well.  He should have been the only celebrity to actually win the million dollars for his charity.  He verbally stated the correct answer to the million dollar question, but host Regis Philbin talked him out of submitting it as his "final answer."  Norm looked visibly upset after it was revealed that his answer was in fact correct.

I remember that. "Okay, fine. Final Answer." "But you would've been right!" [[User:DeathWeed|DeathWeed]] 07:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

== Newsradio ==

I'm not positive he was in Complaint Box.  Imdb lists it as him, but it was only a voice, and he wasn't credited in the episode.  Additionally, the role of Jimmy's Lawyer was taken over by Drake Sather (a newsradio producer/writer), who sounded kinda like Norm.  Unless someone knows of another source (not drawing from imdb) that says it was Norm, I'd suggest removing it. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bsteger|Bsteger]] ([[User talk:Bsteger#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bsteger|contribs]]) 07:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)</span>

== French-Canadian upbringing? ==

this line . . . "(which may be accentual, due to his French-Canadian upbringing)" makes no sense to me. I was born and raised in Québec, but as an English-Quebecer. Norm MacDonald did not have a "French-Canadian upbringing." I'm going to remove that line, unless somebody has proof.--[[User:RobNS|<b><font color="green">''Rob''</font>]][[User talk:RobNS|<font color="blue">''NS''</font></b>]] 04:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

==Genetics?==
i don't think middle schools teach whole courses on genetics per se. it was probably a biology course.[[User:Toyokuni3|Toyokuni3]] ([[User talk:Toyokuni3|talk]]) 15:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Genetics Teacher? ==

I don't think high schools hire genetics teachers, maybe science teachers.[[User:Landroo|Landroo]] ([[User talk:Landroo|talk]]) 12:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


== GTA IV Character? ==

I don't remember anyone by the name of Steve in the game.  There's no one by the name of Steve in the credits in the manual, and Norm MacDonald is not listed either.  If someone could clear this up, I'd appreciate it. [[User:IncoherentMoron|IncoherentMoron]] ([[User talk:IncoherentMoron|talk]]) 04:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

== Requested move 1 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the proposal was '''move per request'''. Since this nomination might be used as the poster child for application of our primary topic policy, i.e., a 100 to 1 disparity for the proposed primary's use over all other uses combined, which means, if not moved, 99% of those looking for articles with the common title would find themselves somewhere other than the page they sought, the opposition is less than convincing.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 00:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
----
[[:Norm Macdonald (comedian)]] → [[Norm Macdonald]] — [[Norm Macdonald]] is currently a dab page listing this comedian; [[Norm Macdonald (politician)]]; and [[Norm McDonald (Australian footballer)]]. The comedian seems to be by far the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for the name (meaning that users are much more likely to be looking for this man than the other two), and the footballer isn't even named Norm Macdonald. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 13:20, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

* [[Norm Macdonald]] → [[Norm Macdonald (disambiguation)]]
:According to [http://stats.grok.se this site's statistics], in June 2010, the comedian's article received about 22,000 pageviews; the politician and footballer articles each received about 200. The comedian overwhelmingly dominates Google web and news searches for the name "Norm Macdonald" (and also, incidentally, for the name "Norm McDonald"). [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 13:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. No firm opinion on the proposed move, but I think that the different spelling is sufficient to drop the disambiguator from the footballer. [[User:PC78|PC78]] ([[User talk:PC78|talk]]) 14:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
*:I was initially going to suggest the same thing, but I couldn't decide whether to include it as part of the same move discussion, and I finally decided to wait until this discussion was complete before possibly proposing (in a separate discussion) a move of the footballer article. I would request that others avoid discussing the footballer article here (unless it's relevant to choosing a title for the comedian article, of course), simply to keep this discussion streamlined. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 16:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' because this is a perfectly good disambiguation page among several obscure people, none of them the ''clear'' primary topic.  The d vs D is too hard to keep straight, so keep MacDonald and Macdonald together.  [[Special:Contributions/69.3.72.9|69.3.72.9]] ([[User talk:69.3.72.9|talk]]) 21:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
::Literally 100 times more people view the Norm Macdonald article than view either of the other two. So I find your characterization of all three as equally obscure to be extremely dubious. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 13:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
:::I am mindful of [[Wikipedia:Recentism]].  [[Special:Contributions/69.3.72.9|69.3.72.9]] ([[User talk:69.3.72.9|talk]]) 15:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
::::I don't know if you're just throwing out random arguments, but this one makes little more sense than the first. The politician is as current as the comedian, so I can't see how recentism applies, and the footballer doesn't appear to have ever enjoyed the kind of widespread name recognition that would rival the comedian, who has been a well-known figure in popular entertainment for over fifteen years. Avoiding recentism doesn't mean pretending that less-recent topics are automatically as significant or more significant than current topics. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 16:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
:::::I am considering how far along in their careers the entertainer and politician are;  the politician's career is on the rise, and so are the page views on the article about him, even though the article is a stub.  [[Special:Contributions/69.3.72.9|69.3.72.9]] ([[User talk:69.3.72.9|talk]]) 18:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
::::::The criteria for determining a primary topic is whether users are much more likely to be seeking that topic than any other possibility. Right now, as I said, roughly 100x as many people are reading about the comedian vs. the politician. If that changes, of course the articles' titles could be reexamined, but I see absolutely no reason to think the two articles are likely to see similar levels of interest anytime soon, especially as the politician was elected five years ago. (And if interest in the politician's article ''did'' skyrocket for some reason, adjusting article titles based on that would likely be a very good example of recentism.) [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 18:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I am thinking also of [[Wikipedia:Crystal ball]].  No matter what we decide to do now, there is a large element of guessing involved because two entries concern living people.  For that reason, I think the bar should be set high for designating either one of them a primary topic.  [[Special:Contributions/69.3.72.9|69.3.72.9]] ([[User talk:69.3.72.9|talk]]) 19:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Okay, let's set the bar high. How about if one article gets 75 times as many hits as the second-most popular, it's the primary topic? [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 13:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Strong support'''; I came to the talk page to propose this move. The comedian is quite obviously the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]]; stats shows that the ''great'' majority of disambiguation page views were intending to visit the comedian's page. Let's save the time of ~9000 dab viewers, of whom at most 463 (assuming ''every page view is from the disambiguation'', which is obviously unreasonable) are looking for the politician or footballer. The IP mentions that "the politician's career is on the rise", though I don't see any of that mentionned in the politician's stub; it sounds like the IP has personal views influencing their decision. Even so, if the politician's career does rise substantially, we can always switch it back. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 04:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' the dab page should move to [[Norm McDonald]] since two entries on it use that spelling, or [[Norm MacDonald]], since it is usually capitalized in the spelling of MacDonald. [[Special:Contributions/70.29.210.72|70.29.210.72]] ([[User talk:70.29.210.72|talk]]) 02:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' the proposal exactly as is per [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]].  Two of the entries on the dab page use the form "Macdonald" and the parentheticals avoid confusion so make the dab page "[[Norm Macdonald (disambiguation)]]" as proposed and keep the parenthetical with the footballer.  — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="color:#fef; background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</span>]]</span> 03:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

==Let's start spelling his name right==

It's Macdonald, not MacDonald.
Check his web site: http://www.normnews.com
As well, CBC.ca says his brother Neil's name is spelled Macdonald. [[User:Alaric the Goth|Alaric the Goth]] 00:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
:normnews.com (and norm-macdonald.net) is a fansite, not his website.  Also, [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005172/ IMDB] says MacDonald with Macdonald as an "alternate name."  Who knows.  [[User:Davewho2|Davewho2]] 02:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
::The logo for [http://www.superdeluxe.com/sd/series/fake_news The Fake News] has his name spelled with a lowercase D.  Every instance on the page, actually.  I'm sure it's something he would want to be presented correctly, his own name and all, being spelled wrong for all these years.  I think that's enough proof to start spelling his name correctly on here. [[Special:Contributions/24.224.235.151|24.224.235.151]] ([[User talk:24.224.235.151|talk]]) 03:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Not to mention, the [http://www.imdb.com/media/rm197500672/tt0120654 Dirty Work movie poster] and the product description of his comedy album, [http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H7J9YE/ Ridiculous] (but not the actual album itself, which would have been helpful). [[Special:Contributions/24.224.235.151|24.224.235.151]] ([[User talk:24.224.235.151|talk]]) 03:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we have any further insight into the spelling issue?  Right now, the spelling within the article is different from the title of the page.  We have to be able to do better than this.  If we're not sure which is right, we can at least be consistent. [[User:Croctotheface|Croctotheface]] ([[User talk:Croctotheface|talk]]) 02:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
:I fixed it to represent his proper name. I went to all the trouble of determining the proper spelling of his name (see former ip 24.224.etc.etc), and I am 97% certain the D is lowercase. I made sure to update as many pages referencing him as I could, and even signed in using an old account to transfer the page to its proper place (back then). So as far as I'm concerned, it's correct. And now I gotta go see if any other pages were wronged. [[Special:Contributions/208.103.232.115|208.103.232.115]] ([[User talk:208.103.232.115|talk]]) 09:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

'''He spells his name "MacDonald"''', according to his [http://www.myspace.com/normmacdonald MySpace page].  Now, who you gonna' trust&nbsp;&mdash; a barely literate C-student journalism major, a fan site run by high school drop-outs, or the man himself? Besides, no self-respecting Scotsman or person of MacDonald descent would spell his family name "Macdonald". &mdash;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 23:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:"Design by Gigglechick.com" tells me that perhaps Norm didn't make his own MySpace page, which leads me to believe that maybe he didn't type in his own information. Maybe he did, though. Seeing as how his Facebook page (linked to from his MySpace page, and perhaps a much better indicator of how he spells his name) also has an uppercase D, I'm more inclined to believe it is so. But maybe I'd rather wait until we hear concrete proof of how he spells it, "straight from the horse's mouth" as it were. (That's right, Norm, I'm calling you a horse.) Perhaps he doesn't care one way or the other, and he finds this name-spelling war ridiculous and hilarious. As for the "no self-respecting Scotsman" remark, I must bring up the first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir [[John A. Macdonald]], born in Glasgow. Or maybe even [[Kelly Macdonald]], that actress with the red hair that identifies herself as Scottish. -[[Special:Contributions/76.11.9.9|76.11.9.9]] ([[User talk:76.11.9.9|talk]]) 13:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
::Or any of the people listed on the [[Macdonald]] page. (Worth a read, no?) -[[Special:Contributions/76.11.9.9|76.11.9.9]] ([[User talk:76.11.9.9|talk]]) 13:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Norm's [http://twitter.com/norm_mac Twitter], [http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNormmacdonald YouTube], [http://normmacdonald.com/ website], and two [http://www.facebook.com/pages/Norm-MacDonald/31977325671 separate] [http://www.facebook.com/normmac Facebook] pages indicate that his name is spelled with a capital D, but at the same time paint Norm to be very technologically illiterate, getting others to make his websites and such. I think at this point, that old nag doesn't care one whit about the spelling of his name. -[[Special:Contributions/76.11.9.9|76.11.9.9]] ([[User talk:76.11.9.9|talk]]) 14:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Norm's Twitter and Facebook pages now reflect spelling with lowercase "d". Also, on Season 7 of "High Stakes Poker" the "d" is lowercase.

It seems his new employer, Comedy Central, and Norm himself have settled this dispute about how Norm spells his own name.  The name of his new show on Comedy Central is called "Sports Show with Norm Macdonald" -lowercase 'd'.  All the press releases, all the mention of the show on Comedy Central's webpages for the show spell it with lowercase 'd' also.  So I am going to go to correct MacDonald on title page to Macdonald. April 30, 2011 [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 06:45, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

After reading further down this page, I noticed there was more debate.  Also, I found out it is not so easy to change that title (not having done a 'move' before) and I don't want to really mess things up by making a mistake, especially since there is another page titled "Norm Macdonald" that redirects to "Norm MacDonald" and that page would need to be involved in this title change.  But it should be clear to everyone now that Norm does spell his name with a lowercase 'd' ...Macdonald. It should be changed now by someone who knows how to do it. [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

==Move afternote: proper capitalization of title?==
After carrying out the move I noticed that the article spells the name with a capital D—that is, Mac'''D'''onald, as opposed to Mac'''d'''onald, while the move request I carried out was from a lowercase spelling to lowercase spelling. Some above talked about the capitalization issue in relation to other titles, but it seems no one, including me, picked up on that there is a question about this regarding the comedian . Searching Google books for <"norm macdonald" "saturday night live">, while MacDonald is more common, there are many with the lowercase spelling as well. Can we get some clarity on this secondary issue? I don't think we need a formal move request for this.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 01:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
:Ugh, you're right. I totally didn't notice that and just assumed the title used the correct spelling, but I'm pretty sure now that MacDonald is right -- for one thing, it's what's used on the official MySpace page. I agree the article should be moved to [[Norm MacDonald]] and that a formal move request should be unnecessary. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 14:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
::It's done.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 13:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
:::Perhaps [[Norm Macdonald (disambiguation)]] should undergo a similar move to be consistent with the primary topic spelling and because only one of the four entries is spelt "Macdonald".  — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="color:#fef; background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</span>]]</span> 17:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
::::I concur. [[User:Propaniac|Propaniac]] ([[User talk:Propaniac|talk]]) 17:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
:::::Seems logical and I'll do it now.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 18:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


'''As of April 2011''', Norm and Comedy Central have named his new show "Sports Show with '''Norm Macdonald'''" -lowercase 'd'.  Also, on the show's webpage at Comedy Central, you can click on a link that is a bio page for "Norm Macdonald".  I don't see how this debate can go any further. Someone needs to change the title of this article to '''"Norm Macdonald"''' ASAP! After all, this is a '''living person''' who deserves to have his name spelled the way he obviously wants it spelled. [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
:I do see how the debate can "go further" because how his name his properly capitalized is not at all clear to me from what you've said. I am not saying you are wrong, but you haven't sewn it up at all. His name is capitalized all over the map in both official and unofficial sources. Visiting the Comedy Central page, I don't see where his name is given with the lowercase d in the title as you've indicated; I only see it spelled in all caps. The bio page does use the all lowercase but CC's internal page has no more weight than many other places where it is spelled with the upper case D from sources with an apparent imprimatur of a major organization involved with him. Regarding the show's name, the New York Times, for example, present the shows title with the upper case D ([http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/pageoneplus/12corrections.html?_r=1&scp=5&sq=%22norm%20macdonald%22&st=cse 1], [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/business/media/11comedy.html?scp=7&sq=%22norm%20macdonald%22&st=cse 2]). Turning away from the sports show in particular, it appears Norm co-authored a book where his name was spelled with the upper case D: [http://www.worldcat.org/title/screwed-press-kit/oclc/131192335 3]. The SNL archives has his name with the upper case D: [http://snl.jt.org/cast.php?i=NoMa 4], and as noted in the discussion above, most convincingly as to the way Norm Macd/Donald himself actually spells it (which is a concern you've focused on), his Facebook page uses the uppercase D: [http://www.facebook.com/pages/Norm-MacDonald/31977325671 5] and he signs posts there in that manner. He also has a link to [http://www.myspace.com/normmacdonald his myspace page] where his name is also given with the uppercase D. This is the only material I've seen where one might say that this is probably Norm's own hand at work in presenting his own name. But there's more. His own post at the Facebook page from September 2010 says "getting new site up at normmacdonald.com" and if you visit that, you see again his apparent own spelling of his own name with an uppercase D.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

::Actually, I prefer the more familiar "MacDonald".  However, Comedy Central is 100% consistent (its everywhere if you look just a ''little'' bit harder) throughout all its web pages (and on window top title-bars) and press releases on spelling it Mac<b>d</b>onald and spelling it "Sports Show with Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald".  Since Norm is a <b>producer and host</b> of "Sports Show with Norm Macdonald", I thought that was how he was currently (in 2011) spelling his name. I assumed he would have corrected all that if it was wrong, wouldn't you think?  My computer won't open his Twitter, Myspace and Facebook accounts, so I'll take your word about Myspace and Facebook unless someone says otherwise.  <s>Now, is he just having fun with changing the spelling of his name to the way he is currently spelling it on this particular new show, but not on his myspace or Facebook, who knows?  It may be an insider joke or something...I don't know.</s>  As far as the print press, I dismiss them outright because journalists are notorious for assuming name spellings...remember the old-saw about the press, "Just spell my name right."  <s>I guess until someone digs up his birth certificate in Canada (here we go again! ugh!), you are right...this won't be settled after all.</s>  I stand corrected...this nonsense goes on, and on, and....!  By the way, I see this was being debated here since at least 2007.  Just curious, how and when did this first get started outside Wiki?  Did he do some work before 2007 with credit of Mac<b>D</b>onald and the internet blog debate started there? Has Norm ever commented about this on twitter or facebook?  Has anyone ever asked Norm?  It's past time someone did.[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Just for laughs and giggles, here's a monkey-wrench in the works:  When I did a spell check on Mac<b>D</b>onald, it came up as a misspelled word.  The suggested spellings in this order were:  Mac<b>d</b>onald, Mac Donald (with a space between c & D), McDonald, Madonna,...  There was no listing for MacDonald. [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
:I was not aware of the previous discussion higher on this page. I'll start a debate below for community input. The move discussion above was not focused on the capitalization issue at all, thus the "afternote". Hopefully we can get some clarity on the issue, at least until such time as Mr. Macd/Donald drops by, and it would also be nice to settle the manner his name should be presented in the article.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 12:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

== Requested move 2==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''page moved'''.  Difficult discussion to follow.  I didn't see any objections to the move.  If this was not consensus, please leave a note on my talk page. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 23:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

----


[[Norm MacDonald]] → {{no redirect|1=Norm Macdonald}} – Per the discussion [[#Move afternote: proper capitalization of title?|directly above here]], and a previous discussion [[#Let's start spelling his name right|higher on this page]], how shall we title this article: Mac{{red|d}}onald or Mac{{red|D}}onald? It would also be good to get some clarity on the name to be used throughout the article (possibly the article itself should mention the naming discrepancy). The fact of the matter is that the D's capitalization varies across many reliable sources without any thus far seen which refer to the naming issue itself, but just present his name either one way of the other. I take it from that long variance over his career that Mr. Macd/Donald himself may not care very much or he could have clarified the issue but it would be good to get it right and to have the article's title and his name's use internally not be at odds.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 12:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

::It's correct on his [https://twitter.com/normmacdonald Twitter page] and on his broadcast show. Norm MacDonald should redirect to Norm Macdonald, and not the other way around. [[Special:Contributions/98.82.153.131|98.82.153.131]] ([[User talk:98.82.153.131|talk]]) 16:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

*'''Support''': Seems to be using lowercase now, e.g. [http://comedians.jokes.com/norm-macdonald/bio here]. –[[User:CWenger|CWenger]] ([[User talk:CWenger|<font face="Webdings"><big>^</big></font>]] • [[Special:Contributions/CWenger|<font face="Webdings"><big>@</big></font>]]) 20:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realize that I was opening up such a can-of-worms. I just assumed Norm spelled his name the way all the Comedy Central press releases and their website for the new ''Sports Show'' were spelling it - Mac<b>d</b>onald.  <s>I guess I really stepped right in it...that wasn't my intention at all. I now believe Norm must have some personal issue with the spelling of his last name.</s>  I do agree with Fuhghettabout that this issue needs to be resolved - for consistency and accuracy.  To that end, I have emailed Comedy Central questioning their spelling his name with a 'd' (instead of 'D') <s>when it appears Norm spelled it MacDonald in past work credits</s>.  So far, no response from them.  I will be very surprised if they do respond. I also looked at the ''Screen Actors Guild'' website, but they do not have an online list of registered stage names.[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 05:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)


I offer the following <b>evidence supporting change</b> to Mac<b>d</b>onald:
:: (1) Norm has worked at the ''[[Ice House Comedy Club]]'' and they have Norm listed as "Mac<b>d</b>onald" -[http://www.icehousecomedy.com/comedians.html]
:: (2) "DIRTY WORK" (1998) movie box cover picture with credit "Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald" -[http://www.reviewstl.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dirty_work_norm_macdonald_poster.jpg]
:: (3) Current work credit on ''[[Comedy Central]]'' is "Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald" -[http://sportsshow.comedycentral.com]
:: (4) Current work bio credit on ''[[Comedy Central]]'' is "Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald" -[http://comedians.jokes.com/norm-macdonald/bio]
::'''Addendum:''' 
:: (5) Norm's current verified twitter account has "Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald" on it -[http://twitter.com/normmacdonald]
::: (5a) For those with computers that won't allow you to view twitter accounts, please look here to verify (5) - [http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7nn2akFD1qz6z0no1_500.png]
:: (6) Current work credit is "Norm Mac<b>d</b>onald" on ''[[Game Show Network]]'', where Norm is host of "High Stakes Poker" - [http://corp.gsn.com/press/releases/norm-macdonald-new-host-gsns-high-stakes-poker]
:: (7) ''[[ESPN]]'' article with "Mac<b>d</b>onald" version -[http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&id=6158796]
::[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 11:31, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I am trying to find reliable personal and work sources as close to Norm as possible.  I have dismissed outright the print press because journalists are notorious for spelling names wrong. Above, Fuhghettaboutit cited ''The New York Times'' as support for the Mac<b>D</b>onald version.   However, I found this   [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/arts/television/norm-macdonald-rises-again-on-comedy-central-sports-show.html article] in ''The New York Times'' where they use the Mac<b>d</b>onald version, thus proving my point that the print press is an unreliable source when it comes to spelling names.  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 01:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I want to respectfully address several points Fuhghettaboutit cited above as proof supporting the Mac<b>D</b>onald version.  "It appears Norm co-authored a book ("Screwed") where his name was spelled with the upper case D: [http://www.worldcat.org/title/screwed-press-kit/oclc/131192335 3]."   First, "Screwed" is a movie starring Norm and possibly co-written by him.  Second, the website cited is not the official website for the movie, and the Mac<b>D</b>onald version found on it was typed in by a person, who may or may not have "corrected" the spelling in the 'press kit' to the more common and familiar Mac<b>D</b>onald; therefore, it is an unreliable source.  The official website for   [http://www.screwedmovie.com "Screwed"] has no mention of Norm, at least as far as I can find, so no help there in this matter.   [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 
Further, Fuhghettaboutit mentions an SNL archive website, which may or may not be an official NBC SNL website (probably not).  However, on the official SNL website they do use the Mac<b>D</b>onald version.  But again, this is done by people who are typing in this info many years (or decade) after the shows Norm appeared in were broadcast.  Did they also "correct" Mac<b>d</b>onald to the more common and familiar Mac<b>D</b>onald, as so many so-called journalists and bloggers have <s>apparently</s> done, compounding this name error? I now truly believe so, and <b>I now believe this is how this name debate started and is being kept alive - through compounded Web and print press error, both past and present.</b>  I would prefer to see the original SNL video showing the version of Macd/Donald that was used in the original on-screen credits as orignally broadcast. But I suspect, like so many TV and movie credits, they spell the entire name in capital letters, so probably no help there in this matter.  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I finally got a look at Norm's many different Facebook accounts and myspace account.  As far as I can tell, except for one version of a Facebook account which appears to be an old Facebook account created by a fan, they appear to be 'real' and all use the Mac<b>D</b>onald version. However, Norm admitted on David Letterman's show that he isn't interested in the Internet, computers or computer savvy, so did he hire some outside computer geek to set up and manage these accounts and they "corrected" his name from Mac<b>d</b>onald to the more familiar Mac<b>D</b>onald? (probably yes) Has Norm ever even bothered to look at these pages?  From looking at these pages, I see no evidence to support an assumption that he has looked at them.  Most stars (especially those not computer savvy) hire someone to set-up and manage their facebook and myspace accounts because it takes so much time.  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

So, that only leaves Norm's personal Twitter account.  I still can't view Norm's personal Twitter account, which I know he personally uses because he recently tweeted <s>Robin Williams</s> Steve Martin while on the Letterman show (a fact well documented on the Web).  A post above by 98.82.153.131 says Norm personally tweets using the Mac<b>d</b>onald version.  Is this true or not?  <b>If its true</b>, then I think ALL the <b>reliable evidence</b> I have presented above is overwhelming that Norm spells his name Mac<b>d</b>onald.  Therefore, <b>if true</b>, I respectfully request again that the title be changed, pages be moved as necessary and all mention on Wiki pages of Norm Macdonald(actor and comedian) be changed to reflect the correct spelling (as far as any reasonable person can humanly determine) of this living person's name. <s>And if we are wrong, then Norm has no one to blame but himself!</s>  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

::By searching 'Google images' I have <b>confimed it's true</b>, that at least since 4-3-2011, Norm Macdonald's verified twitter account  http://twitter.com/normmacdonald  has been changed to display the correct version of Norm's last name which is Mac<b>d</b>onald -with lower case 'd'.  Here is the actual proof[http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7nn2akFD1qz6z0no1_500.png] for those of you, like myself, who can't open Norm's actual twitter account from your computer.  Originally, the Mac<b>D</b>onald version was on Norm's twitter account when he began tweeting in Feb 2011. But now that Norm started using his "long dormant" account, he has recently corrected his name on this account to Mac<b>d</b>onald.  This just varifies my theory that people (including people Norm himself hired to set-up his personal twitter account) have been assuming he uses the more common and familiar MacDonald version.  They have all had good intentions, but we now know for certain (and without any doubt) that they were wrong when they corrected Macdonald to MacDonald! I found out that Norm only started using his "long dormant" twitter account in Feb 2011-  [http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/2011/02/28/norm-macdonalds-best-oscar-tweets/]  and while it took several months for Norm to correct his name on his personal twitter account, he has corrected it and that is now a fact in evidence. It is LONG past time that the Wiki community support this change of a living person's name to the Mac<b>d</b>onald version on all titles and within all Wiki articles. So say we all???  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 10:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

In my 05:33,3 May 2011 post, I stated "it appears Norm spelled it Mac<b>D</b>onald in past work credits." After many hours wasted on this, I have not been able to confirm that assumption, so I now retract that statement.  '''Addendum:''' In fact, the <b>only</b> work credits I have been able to find use the Mac<b>d</b>onald version.  [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 07:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC) 
:: (for retracted statements, feel free to <s>strikethrough</s>)  --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 13:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - Moving MacDonald --> Macdonald is correct IMO. I've always considered the Mac'''d'''- version the most credible, based on old credits, major-market newspapers and the majority of news sources reporting from press releases.  Currently, the most notable, considered-usually-highly-reliable independent source is ''[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/arts/television/norm-macdonald-rises-again-on-comedy-central-sports-show.html?pagewanted=2 "Sports Show Offers Comedian a Comeback"]. New York Times, April 5, 2011.'' in which his name and the show name are consistently "Macdonald". (The NYTimes.com site seems to have always used the lowercase). Smaller-market newspapers seem to be the worst offenders with the MacD- capitalization. '''Addendum:''' Comedy Central's [http://www.comedycentral.com/press/press_releases/2011/020911-sports-show-with-norm-macdonald-greenlight.jhtml Sports Show February 2011 press release] is internally consistent, using Mac'''d''' everywhere.  --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 09:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

==Section about the confusion of surname in article==

'''The section:'''

Since Norm Macdonald became popular on ''[[SNL]]'', there has been great confusion in the print press and on the Internet about the proper capitalization of Norm Macdonald's surname.  Even so-called reliable sources, like ''[[The New York Times]]'', are unreliable when it comes to Macdonald's surname, sometimes using  both versions (Macdonald / MacDonald) within the same article.  Much of this confusion stems from the fact that most (if not all) movie and TV credits display performer's names entirely in uppercase lettering.  This leaves journalists and bloggers with the responsibility to either do the hard research to find the correct surname version or make the easy (but wrong) assumption that Macdonald uses the more common version: MacDonald.

While the Internet helped propagate the incorrect version of Macdonald's surname, in early 2011, the Internet played a major role in helping to correct this festering surname confusion.  In April 2011, Macdonald and [[Comedy Central]] named his new show ''[[Sports Show with Norm Macdonald]]'' on their web site and in press releases.<sup>[1]</sup>  Also, the [[Game Show Network]] web site, where Macdonald is the new host of ''[[High Stakes Poker]]'', has his credit as Macdonald.<sup>[2]</sup>  Macdonald did many interviews to promote these new shows.  In these interviews, Macdonald discussed his older brother [[Neil Macdonald]], who is an award-winning [[CBC News]] journalist.<sup>[3]</sup>  Also, since 4-3-2011, Norm Macdonald's verified twitter account<sup>[4]</sup> has been changed to display "Norm Macdonald" on his tweets.<sup>[5]</sup>

For more in depth information on this surname issue, please see 'Requested move 2' on this article's Discussion page.
;References
<small>
#http://sportsshow.comedycentral.com
#[http://corp.gsn.com/press/releases/norm-macdonald-new-host-gsns-high-stakes-poker Press release from Game Show Network using Macdonald]
#[http://www.uptownmag.com/arts/features/Norm-Macdonald-talks-to-Uptown-103645619.html "Norm Macdonald talks to Uptown"] by Jared Story -Norm mentions brother Neil Macdonald at end of article
#http://twitter.com/normmacdonald
#[http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7nn2akFD1qz6z0no1_500.png Screen image of Norm Macdonald tweet]
<!-- edited per [[WP:TPOC]] with permission from RedEyedCajun, and since it was not JaeDyWolf's text in the first place, and listing the used refs does not change the sense of the discussion, and I didn't modify JaeDyWolf's text. -->
</small>
'''#---------------#'''

Surely there's no need for an in-depth account regarding the confusion of Norm Macdonald's surname in the article? As far as I'm concerned, the article should be about '''the person''' and not his name. [[User:JaeDyWolf|JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San]] ([[User talk:JaeDyWolf|talk]]) 16:08, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
#<s>(Too bad you removed the sources.  Mind putting them back in, above, just as inline links?) </s> <small>(did it, with RedEyedCajun's permission per [[WP:TPOC]], since it was his text --Lexein)''</small>
#There's a guideline about ''not talking about Wikipedia issues'' in articles, and ''don't cite Wikipedia'', but I can't remember what it is. 
#POV. The statement "the New York Times is unreliable..." is POV for a general audience to read, no matter what words come before or after it. Worse, that phrase is '''unsourced''' - we don't get to make claims like that with the ''Voice of Wikipedia.'' Further, it's not even true in the Wikipedia universe: the vast majority of NYT articles mentioning Macdonald capitalize it correctly; even though a ''few'' do not, they were published during periods when even Macdonald's agent's press releases got it wrong. Blaming the NYT or singling them out is inappropriate, because they rely on sources, just like we do, and sometimes the sources are '''crap.''' The majority of miscapitalizations, as I've pointed out before, occur in smaller-market publications, and this remains true. 
#The Internet helped nothing, and fixed nothing.  The wags and wonks at Comedy Central finally paid attention to their p's, q's and d's.
#The controversy over the capitalization of his name didn't make the press, so it's unfortunately [[WP:OR|Original Research]] and [[WP:SYNTH|Synthesis]] to assemble a history of it in the article, though it's perfectly fine to discuss in the Talk page. 
:--[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 00:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

::First: Sorry, but in my opinion, you can't separate the person from his name on a bio page.  This discussion page alone has been useless in addressing this on-going problem, because I just recently had to correct his surname again on this very bio page.  I added 'The section' in question ''only'' because this on-going confusion proved to me there is "some" need (maybe not going in-depth as far as I did) to have this "surname confusion" addressed directly in the bio page itself, as someone suggested above.  Hopefully with 'The section'(or some version of it) in the bio page, people in the future will read the bio article ''before'' adding the incorrect surname version, or others will be educated about the correct surname version (and the confusion issue) and they will quickly correct any more confusion from spreading on Wiki pages.  If people continue to add the incorrect surname version on Wiki (here, there and everywhere as they did before), then Wiki itself will be guilty again (yes, again) of propagating this surname confusion on it's own web pages.

::Second: Since no sources (reliable or not) have discussed this surname confusion, I truly believe this doesn't dismiss the need to address this issue within this bio page based on the ''obvious fact'' that there is a "world-wide" confusion about his surname (not just a Wiki confusion), which is just as evident as the fact that "the sky is blue" and doesn't need to be sourced.  Just by doing a simple search of "norm macdonald" on any search engine ''proves'' there is a "world-wide" confusion about his surname (both in reliable and unreliable sources), so it needs no sourcing to prove it to be true because it is a ''self-evident'' truth.

::Third: Sorry, but the Internet did play a role in ''finally'' correcting this surname confusion.  Without the Internet sites of Comedy Central, Game Show Network and Twitter, this issue could never have been resolved by Norm Macdonald himself, as, witness, it wasn't resolved before.  It's only because Macdonald recently started working again on TV (2011) with two different networks with web sites, which always used his correct surname, and he began personally using Twitter that everyone could finally see for themselves how the man himself ''actually'' capitalized his surname. That had ''never'' happened before, so the confusion persisted before.  No one could continue to deny this correct version anymore.  This all only happened very recently (2011) and couldn't have happened without these undeniable '''internet sources''' which are personally connected to Macdonald.

::Fourth:  When it comes to Macdonald's surname in the New York Times, they have been ''all over the map''.  Therefore, they have been unreliable when it came to his surname, whether it is in five articles or twenty, sorry, but that's still unreliable (and confusing) to anyone trying to figure out his correct surname using NYT articles. It is their responsibility to fact-check their articles before they go to print or post them to their web site.  The excuse that an "agent's press releases" were wrong is no excuse for their errors in print.  They are the NYT and they can't do a simple thing like fact-check a celebrity's name before going to print?  I stand by the stmt the NYT is an unreliable source for Macdonald's correct surname.  Sorry, but a simple Google search proves this to be a true and obvious stmt...not just my POV.

::However, I am curious to see what others have to say about 'The section'(or some version of it) being placed in the bio page. [[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 10:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
:::I laid the groundwork for this when I said in passing in the RM discussion "(possibly the article itself should mention the naming discrepancy)." However, when I said this, what I actually had in my mind's eye was something like this: 
::::"'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald''', with his surname sometimes presented in the media as '''MacDonald'''<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2][3]</font></sup></small> (born October 17, 1963), is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor..."
:::Whatever form the mention should take, if any, it must not contain a [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (self-references to avoid)|self-reference to Wikipedia]].--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:30, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I would be very satisfied with that, but with two changes:
:::::"'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald''', with his surname sometimes incorrectly presented in the media as Mac'''D'''onald<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2][3]</font></sup></small> (born October 17, 1963), is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor..."--[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 12:55, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::Hmm, I don't think we should include "incorrectly". There is no original research in the first because multiple reliable sources do present it one way and others do present it another way. However, we have no source which passes on the matter directly at all. For naming of the article purposes, I was satisfied that after our due diligence, it is better to have this article at the lowercase spelling (and we do have to have a title, after all), but I am not convinced that we know beyond a moral certainty that MacDonald is "incorrect". It's original research to say so based on an inductive argument from evidence that is persuasive—even very persuasive—but not conclusive.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 13:35, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
::::*I support a shorter version with ''occasionally''. Because no RS have discussed the discrepancy ''per se'', the RS can (IMHO) only be used to indicate which is the most recent:
:::::"'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald''' (until recently, occasionally reported as Mac''D''onald<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2][3]</font></sup></small>), born October 17, 1963, is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor.".  
:::::--[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 13:37, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::We do not have a database of all sources such that we know he is not ''still'' being "reported" under the alternate form. Moreover, "occasionally" is an opinion on frequency (and, in fact, it appears he was most often credited with the uppercase D until recently; so it doesn't even appear to be correct). "Sometimes" or "at times", in place of occasionally, does not suffer from this problem. I see no reason we need to comment on time frame and doing so is original research. The only thing we know conclusively from sources is that ''his name has been given under both versions, sometimes one way, sometimes another'', so that's all we should report; not when and not characterizing which is correct directly. Let's put no gloss on it whatever:<p><code>'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald''', with his surname sometimes presented as '''MacDonald'''<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2][3]</font></sup></small> (born October 17, 1963), is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor...</code><p>--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 15:03, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
:::::*Changed my mind: it occurs to me that dropping the discrepancy to a note is precisely what footnotes are for.
::::::'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald'''<sup><font color=#002BB8>[Note 1]</font></sup> (born October 17, 1963), is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor...
::::::==Notes==
::::::^<sup><font color=#002BB8>[1]</font></sup> His surname is sometimes presented as '''MacDonald''' with a capital "D".<sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2]</font></sup></small> As of 2011, Comedy Central reports the lowercase form.<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[3][[4]</font></sup></small>
:::::::--[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 15:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::::That looks good to me.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

::(Please excuse my impatience for breaking in here, but I've reached my breaking point on this continuing nonsense.)  Norm Macdonald is currently personally signing his verified Twitter tweets as Norm Mac'''d'''onald. Period. (I won't waste any more of my valuable time on this by citing the many reliable sources available to prove this fact and other facts below, because you folks just continue to ignore them all.)  Macdonald's tweeting is the most reliable source anyone could ever hope to cite - directly from the horses mouth...but in this case, the man's own hand.  That fact alone should end this nonsense.  But if you need more, I supplied all the reliable evidence supporting the Mac'''d'''onald version in the discusion above (see 'Requested move 2') and none of the evidence presented was disputed or contradicted by anyone.  Need even more, then in recent and past interviews, Norm Macdonald has discussed his brother Neil Macdonald (Norm's family surname is Macdonald, folks...not MacDonald) who happens to be an award winning CBC journalist and is presented on the CBC web site (and cited in other reliable news organizations) as Neil Mac'''d'''onald.  Are you folks saying the CBC (a reliable news organization) doesn't know how to correctly capitialize the surname of their own award-winning journalist, employed by them?  Are you folks saying Norm Macdonald is a liar and Neil Macdonald is not his brother?  Neil Macdonald has also discussed his comedian/actor brother Norm. If you folks want to go on ''pretending'' Norm's surname is not Mac'''d'''onald because you cite some now discredited "reliable sources" who went to print in the past using the incorrect MacDonald version, then this would be prime evidence as to why comedians/media have such a low opinion on Wiki's reliability.
:: It's a provable fact that the Mac'''D'''onald version is not supported any longer by any "reliable sources" because ''the hand of Norm Macdonald himself has totally discredited'' their ''so-called'' reliablity on their past/present reporting by incorrectly presenting his surname as Mac'''D'''onald.  The only correct/factual statement supported by reliable evidence personally connected to Norm Macdonald (and no longer contradicted by second-hand, now-proven-unreliable sources) is the following:
:::"'''Norman Gene "Norm" Macdonald''', with his surname sometimes incorrectly presented in the media as Mac'''D'''onald<small><sup><font color=#002BB8>[1][2][3]</font></sup></small> (born October 17, 1963), is a Canadian stand-up comedian, writer and actor..." --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:53, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

::The above stmt (which I made a BIG compromise in accepting in place of the entire section I orginally posted) would stand up in any court of law in any country on the planet, folks.  But not on a Wiki bio page for a living person?  This should concern every Wiki administrator.  As such, I am going to do the correct thing and post that factual stmt now.  If anyone can prove that stmt is incorrect, then prove it here first before you remove it from the bio page. --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:53, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Please read [[WP:TIGERS]].  We all get that you're upset, and that nothing anyone else does to bring the "obvious truth" into the article will make you happy. There hasn't been consensus yet, and discussion is still going, so please don't make unsourced claims, or edits to the article until this is settled.  Please remember that ''all [[WP:UNSOURCED|unsourced claims]] can be challenged or removed, especially in [[WP:BLP]]''.  Sources don't state "incorrect" or a synonym, so we can't either.  IMHO it doesn't belong in the lead, but in a footnote, because that's the only place that observations by an editor can ''ever'' go.  The footnote '''can''' have refs in it. Let's line up the sources, agree on them, and ''then'' add the footnote. And no, nobody is claiming that "D" was ever correct, just that it ''was'' reported, and that ''now'', only "d" is reported both in books about Norm, and by Norm's business interests.  That's all we can say! 
:::[http://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/norm-macdonald/bio/168320 TV Guide, ref #3], gets it right 16 out of 27 times. The [http://www.uptownmag.com/arts/features/Norm-Macdonald-talks-to-Uptown-103645619.html Uptown interview, ref #4], gets it right 61 times, and wrong at the 62nd. But the [http://books.google.com/books?id=aNDb1d2i9KkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Live+From+New+York:+An+Uncensored+History+of+Saturday+Night+Live&hl=en&ei=mXfbTYaGMZKWsgPHtumnDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=macdonald&f=false Shales book, ref #6], gets it right 100%, as does this [http://books.google.com/books?id=hAdZIuU0wFgC&pg=PA60&dq=norm+macdonald&hl=en&ei=KtvcTdDWFomosQPcvI2SBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=norm%20macdonald&f=false ''Adam Sandler: America's comedian'' by Bill Crawford], using "Mac'''d'''". So books and Comedy Central are our '''most''' reliable sources for the correct capitalization.  Here's my revised footnote, with actual ref #s:
::::^<sup>1</sup> The capitalization of Norm Macdonald's surname has been inconsistently reported in publications such as TVGuide<sup>[3]</sup>, but books discussing Norm (Shales,<sup>[6]</sup> and Crawford<sup>[26]</sup>), the [[Game Show Network]]<sup>[2]</sup>, and [[Comedy Central]] (Sports Show<sup>[22]</sup><sup>[23]</sup> and Norm's album<sup>[24]</sup>) all consistently report "Macdonald" (lowercase "d") as his surname. 
:::I hope this satisfies. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 09:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::I appreciate all the time you put into that.  However, I think you missed my original intent for 'the section'. The discussion was ''supposed'' to be on my original section.  I tried discussing that, but some folks went a whole different direction.  Okay, fine. I went with that.  The 'stmt' belongs in the article, is a much better solution from my original section and can be supported by footnotes.  If you want to ''now'' discuss a footnote mention, then that is too far from the original sections intent (or the 'stmt' I support being in the article) to ever solve this on-going problem with folks adding MacDonald version within bio article. That's the only reason I started this in the first place. You may as well do nothing at all because that will be the result with a footnot mention which few will ever read. WP does have rules that allow adding content which is supported by self-evident facts.  Norm Macdonald's surname certainly now falls under that rule, but doesn't need to because his correct surname also has reliable sources to back it up.  Norm Macdonald's active Twitter account and his work credits (both past and present) are self-evident, reliable, determinate sources for his correct surname.  No one has denied that here.  To argue that these sources are somehow not self-evident and determinate is like saying the signature on a famous painting is ''not'' a self-evident determinate source for the way a famous artist signs his name '''if''' so-called "reliable media sources" incorrectly spelled his name wrong in the past '''and''' other reliable media sources cannot be '''cited''' which mention these incorrect spellings. These errors in print have no standing whatsoever on the original source being self-evident and therefore, determinate. Does anyone see my point and my intent? --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 12:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
::::As approaches are discussed and found wanting based on guideline and policy, alternatives are suggested. This is normal. 
::::A re-reading of the [[WP:OR]] policy shows that there is no room for facts unsupported by reliable sources: "fact" is written right into it.  No reliable source discusses the capitalization discrepancies, so we can't either, nor assert which is correct or incorrect.
::::Twitter is not a reliable source, please stop using it.  Self-evidence, or truth, is not a reliable source: see [[WP:V]].  We should not use two sources to synthesize a fact, such as "correct" or "incorrect": see [[WP:SYNTH]]. 
::::At the moment, IMHO, the best we can do is add a well-cited footnote about consistency, a banner on this Talk page, and a warning which appears in edit mode for the Talk page and article. How can these measures ''not'' be enough?  
::::No matter what we do, new editors will probably ''still'' add the wrong capitalization at some point, and we'll just correct it, as usual, and refer to the banners, and The Dude will abide. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 13:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::"...a warning which appears in edit mode for the...article."  Please explain further.  Maybe that would be enough to prevent most of the on-going problem. --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::*A good example is visible in edit mode (whole page or section) for [[List of common misconceptions]] - it's [[Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_common_misconceptions | this template]], implemented with the {{tl|editnotice}} tag. We would request this editnotice per the procedures there, then an administrator will create the editnotice page. Afterwards, no further action is required. Here's my suggestion:
::::::{{tlg|editnotice |code=yes |<nowiki>
   | header = READ THIS FIRST: Capitalization of Macdonald
   | headerstyle = font-size: larger; text-align: center; background: yellow;
   | expiry = indefinite
   | text=The most reliable sources (books by Shales (2003), and Crawford (2000), and Norm Macdonald's current business interests, [[GSN]] and [[Comedy Central]]) all use '''Macdonald''' (lowercase "d"), so, by consensus of interested editors, please use this capitalization in this article.
   | style = background-color: #fee
   | image = [[File:Stop hand nuvola alternate.svg|40px]]
   </nowiki>}}

::::::'''Note:'''  editnotices originate ''off page'', so can't inline ref ''on page'', but could weblink to the sources, or Google books pages.  But IMHO harvard-style reference to the book author's last name should suffice. The notice should be ''brief'', IMHO.  There's also a nifty banner at the top of [[Talk:List of common misconceptions]], which could contain identical brief text.  --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 13:30, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::I would fully '''support''' this solution and thank you for all your efforts and time spent on this issue. --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


:[[User:JaeDyWolf|JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San]] ([[User talk:JaeDyWolf|talk]]) has apparently refused [[User:Lexein|Lexein's]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) request to restore the five references he ''stripped'' from my original section, which he posted inside his edit above.  What can be done to correct this posting error? --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
::At this point, with your permission, I just took care of it, per [[WP:TPOC]] with your permission, and the text wasn't JaeDyWolf's to manipulate, and including the refs doesn't change the sense of the discussion. I assume that pseudo-refs are still satisfactory, since true refs and reflists are sort of a nightmare on talk pages. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 13:30, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
:::RedEyedCajun, there's no need for malice; the references weren't needed for the point I was making and if consensus were to be reached that the paragraph should be restored, the references are happily preserved in the article history. [[User:JaeDyWolf|JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San]] ([[User talk:JaeDyWolf|talk]]) 19:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
::::Discussionwise... yep, it's good to [[WP:CIVIL|not type some words]], and to  [[WP:AGF|deliberately ignore some words]], and remember [[WP:NODEADLINE|slack]].  --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 19:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
::::JaeDyWolf, I don't know what malice you are talking about.  (Malice is a very harsh judgement and truly hurt.)  It had been 3 days since Lexein (not me) requested you restore the references.  However, I also wanted my references restored here and I knew Lexein was ''very'' knowledgeable about this topic and would probably respond with help.  However, if you actually found anything I wrote about you malicious, then I do truly apologize.  While I'm at it, I would also like to apologize to Lexein and Fuhghettaboutit (who did their very best to help) because I '''was''' very brash to them with my impatience on this frustrating Catch-22 situation. --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 08:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I think [[User:Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) and [[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] both understood my use of the words 'continuing nonsense' because they have been involved since the very start, but just to clarify those words during recent disussion "(Please excuse my impatience for breaking in here, but I've reached my breaking point on this continuing nonsense. -08:53, 25 May 2011 )", I offer this:  In the 'Move afternote: proper capitalization of title' section above, I wrote, "I stand corrected...this nonsense goes on, and on, and....! I see this was being debated here since at least 2007." -07:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)  By 'nonsense', I was referring to ''the inability to finally determine the true capitalization for Norm's surname for so many years here on Wiki - therefore 'continuing nonsense.'''  I thought I had solved this puzzle of 'surname confusion' in the 'Requested move 2' section, after I spent a week and countless hours researching this on a slow dial-up modem and consensus was finally reached.  So imagine my frustration and disappointment when it ''appeared to me'' that others were now again apparently implying Mac'''d'''onald wasn't necessarily correct and that it wasn't possible to say on Wiki that "surname sometimes ''incorrectly'' presented in the media as Mac'''D'''onald."  Once Lexein said, "And no, nobody is claiming that "D" was ever correct, just that it was reported...",  that I then began understanding/addressing his true point (i.e. "Sources don't state "incorrect" or a synonym, so we can't either").  I even went to the trouble of going to the '''WP:OR discussion page''' to get some clarity from other neutral editors about whether or not WP:OR applied to ''living celebrities names'' or just ''ideas''.  They all agreed that I couldn't make the 'stmt' that "Mac'''D'''onald was incorrect" because WP:OR applied.  Some appeared to agree that a primary source like "Twitter" could be used as source that Norm capitialized his surname as Mac'''d'''onald, but that's as far as I could go with that primary source because under Wiki rules, that source alone doesn't prove Mac'''D'''onald isn't an alternate version.  I now ''finally'' understand the controlling Wiki rule. --[[User:RedEyedCajun|RedEyedCajun]] ([[User talk:RedEyedCajun|talk]]) 22:59, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

::::: Excellent!  I went through exactly the same thing, long ago, that's why I have some compassion with the frustration. To purloin a phrase, ''Wikipedia is a harsh mistress.'' --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 23:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

== Bilingual ==
- I'm pretty sure that Norm isnt bilingual - he grew up in Quebec, and has said several times that he didnt learn French, but instead learned Latin. In addition, lots of English people growing up in Quebec didnt learn French, due to cultural conflict, back in the 50s/60s/70s.

- He said in this interview (http://www.comedycouch.com/interviews/nmacdonald.htm) that he didn't learn to speak French, and took Latin in high school. I doubt he's fluent in Latin, and therefore not bilingual.

He said on the Tonight show that he isn't Scottish. His family - originally Polish - changed their name.

- That was for the purposes of a joke and goes against what he's said many times, which is that he is Scottish.  At least his father is.  I have seen people say that his mother is Jewish because her name was Cohen, but it's also an Irish name and he mentioned in passing on a podcast recently (I can't remember what podcast) that she is Irish.  [[User:Mole Playing Rough|Mole Playing Rough]] ([[User talk:Mole Playing Rough|talk]]) 07:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

::Not only does it not seem like he's bilingual, but referring to him as a "bilingual Cananadian actor and comedian" puts too much emphasis on the "bilingual" thing for no reason. Deleted, it can be re-added if anyone has proof he's bilingual. --[[User:68.149.181.145|68.149.181.145]] 04:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

==Asexuality==
im hesitant to remove it, but i changed the wording. i dont think a link to a radio interview recording is valid. and, of course, he may be joking, as he is a comedian...[[User:Mercurywoodrose|Mercurywoodrose]] ([[User talk:Mercurywoodrose|talk]]) 03:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


He's said similar things in Maxim. "I don't care for sex. I find it an embarrassing, dull exercise. I prefer sports, where you can win." He's never specifically identified as "asexual" as far as I've seen. I believe it when he's said he's been celibate for a decade, but I'm not so quick to take that to mean he considers himself an asexual man. [[Special:Contributions/76.26.29.169|76.26.29.169]] ([[User talk:76.26.29.169|talk]]) 20:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

: He has also said multiple times that he enjoys women. Do not take anything Norm says in one of his appearances at face value!!! Seriously. He is a comedian who thrives on saying stuff that that is untrue for the sake of a joke. There are way to many mentions here of the stuff that Norm has falsely stated in appearances.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.184.233.201|72.184.233.201]] ([[User talk:72.184.233.201|talk]]) 01:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Political humor==
Originally, this was ==Politics== and someone deleted the section.  I put it back, renamed it, and noted the paradox of his claiming to be apolitical, and still making political jokes.  That Clinton joke got Norm a lot of free publicity.  I added (see [[Vince Foster]]) to put the Clinton joke in context. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] 07:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
====political humor bookmark====
www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a1417874830.htm and [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/2e4c6ebbcb0e6560/e88910d4753e955e Google Newsgroup archive] - both refer to Norm on the 11/16/2000 "The View" joking "Clinton... he killed a guy..." .   Still seeking video or official transcript of that appearance.  At least the date is right.  '''Notable''' because Norm joked about Clinton in this manner for many years, including SNL's Weekend Update(1996).  This doesn't go in the main article yet. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] 06:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

FFS it was just a joke! He was just being ridic. He wanted to be annoying. He's a comedy genius and wants nothing more than to be funny. I heard him telling this story on a radio program ten years later and it was just really funny. He couldn't care less about politics. Obv Clinton didn't murder a guy. That's the joke. [[Special:Contributions/91.155.237.252|91.155.237.252]] ([[User talk:91.155.237.252|talk]]) 05:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit: And oh now I see the main article. Like srsly Norm is just telling the truth. He has nothing against Clinton. Just everything against being unfunny. [[Special:Contributions/91.155.237.252|91.155.237.252]] ([[User talk:91.155.237.252|talk]]) 05:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

== French-Canadian? ==

Nationality was listed as French Canadian.  Two things wrong with this.  One, that's not a nationality (Quebec is not a separate country yet), and two, just because he's from Quebec does not mean he's French-Canadian.  I've changed to just Canadian.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.77.149.244|70.77.149.244]] ([[User talk:70.77.149.244|talk]]) 01:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Influences ==

Norm has said that he reads a lot of books by Russian authors, particularly Tolstoy. He says that they are his comedic influences. http://wsf1027fm.blogspot.fi/2012/07/podcast-episode-287ish-norm-macdonald.html  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.249.81.204|84.249.81.204]] ([[User talk:84.249.81.204|talk]]) 16:14, 6 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Plus Tolstoy was big on the chat show circuit in 19th century Russia :) [[Special:Contributions/83.217.122.76|83.217.122.76]] ([[User talk:83.217.122.76|talk]]) 16:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Bob Dylan  ==

http://www.bdcwire.com/heres-the-really-weird-story-norm-macdonald-told-about-bob-dylan-last-night/

Norm Macdonald on Bob Dylan if it is of any use here? EDLIS Café  20:03, 21 January 2015 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:EdRicardo|EdRicardo]] ([[User talk:EdRicardo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EdRicardo|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Sounds like it's just a description of a dream he had. I would say there's no reason to work it in. [[User:Ptprs|Ptprs]] ([[User talk:Ptprs|talk]]) 08:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

== Birthdate ==

So all his bios say he was born in 1963, but a couple weeks ago Geoff Edgers at The Washington Post did a story about Norm where he claimed he was born in 1959. The story can be read here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/entertainment/norm-macdonald/

The relevant line is this: "He tells everyone he was born in 1963, but he was really born in 1959." 

This has now seemingly been confirmed by Norm's brother Neil Macdonald, who works for CBC News. Neil put out an article today about Norm's new book: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/arts/norm-macdonald-book-1.3740268 

It includes a photo of the two of them as children, accompanied by this caption: "Norm Macdonald's first day of school in Valcartier, Que., circa 1964. Norm was five in this photo, and his brother Neil, on the right, was seven."

Later he writes: "I've known Norm for nearly 57 years, and still can't say I know what he really thinks."

Regardless of what the bios say, I think it's pretty clear the guy was born in '59. Certainly his brother has no reason to lie. As far as the day and the month, Edgers refers to Norm as 56 rather than 57, which would mean his birthday hasn't yet come around this year. Similarly, Neil says he's known Norm for NEARLY 57 years. This would lead me to believe the October 17 date might very well be correct, we've just got the wrong year. However, that's just speculation.

With all this said, I recommend changing Norm's birth date to 1959, with no day or month until those are confirmed.

Agreed?  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.250.253.251|99.250.253.251]] ([[User talk:99.250.253.251|talk]]) 15:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Agreed. However, it needed to be properly cited and formatted, which I've done. -- [[User:Tenebrae|Tenebrae]] ([[User talk:Tenebrae|talk]]) 16:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[Norm Macdonald]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/820619601|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303175749/http://corp.gsn.com/press/releases/norm-macdonald-new-host-gsns-high-stakes-poker to http://corp.gsn.com/press/releases/norm-macdonald-new-host-gsns-high-stakes-poker

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 17:31, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

== Needs clean-up ==

This article is due for an overhaul. It's full of fan-centric trivia and minutiae, draws too heavily from primary sources (e.g. SNL episodes, passing quotes and interviews) which neglects [[WP:DUEWEIGHT|due weight]] and makes this read more like one person's [[WP:OR|analysis]] of Macdonald ("As of May 2017, Macdonald has continued to evolve in his standup" reads like pure editor opinion, and actually says nothing). The Career section needs better structure than mere chronology. I'll e working to improve structure and coverage in the coming weeks. [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty!]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 21:51, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

== Early life  ==

Norm does not have a sister named Leslie. He has a brother whose name is Leslie. For some strange reason, I correct this and it shows up again.[[User:71.247.229.53|71.247.229.53]] 02:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/71.247.229.53|71.247.229.53]] ([[User talk:71.247.229.53|talk]]) 02:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->


Norm is a former student of Algonquin College in Ottawa where he studied Television Broadcasting.<ref>https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-algonquin-college-alumni-and-students/reference</ref>  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/174.115.252.239|174.115.252.239]] ([[User talk:174.115.252.239|talk]]) 01:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{reflist-talk}}

Ok, How is this? Norm has a sibling named Leslie? That way you keep them guessing and whining for more. [[User:FoxFactChechChick|FoxFactChechChick]] ([[User talk:FoxFactChechChick|talk]]) 10:19, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

== Why in gods name is there a "political views" section? ==

the political views section is little more than an assortment of two or three political jokes and a quote concerning his stance on comedie about politicians.
so why does it exist? to me it just looks like overzealous trivia noting, and i think it should be removed. 
ad the one or two facts in somewhere in the article.

whole heartedly: somebody who gets mad at bloted wikepedia articles.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2003:E2:373C:1A3B:EC08:CB9D:6261:6B38|2003:E2:373C:1A3B:EC08:CB9D:6261:6B38]] ([[User talk:2003:E2:373C:1A3B:EC08:CB9D:6261:6B38#top|talk]]) 17:12, 19 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:On the bright side, at least there aren't sections dedicated to cobbling together his socioeconomic, ethnographic and homoerotic views regarding the Germans, the women and the midgets. That's where an overzealous cherrypicker could really do some political damage, inadvertent or otherwise. But after pondering these jokes for the last fourteen months, it seems they exist because nobody has deleted them yet. Ergo, they're non-objectionable, by modern online standards of decency. Are they important? Hell no! But they're "alright". Until someone's offended enough to agree with you, I mean. Good luck! [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 06:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

== Better way to divide up career section? ==

Right now it is just SNL and post-SNL, and the post-SNL section is a just series of short career updates, patchwork project by project. In a way it's fair, as his career has been somewhat inconsistent since SNL, and his profile perhaps hasn't been as high as it was during Weekend Update. Still I think it could be improved and I'd suggest strusturing it with headings on his standup and standup specials, his TV and Netflix shows, his podcast, and maybe his chat show appearances. Would make everything a bit clearer if nothing else. --[[User:Otsima|Otsima]] ([[User talk:Otsima|talk]]) 14:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

== AGE ==

His myspace page says he's 68. I saw his show in Toronto tonight and he said he was 68 as well. 

http://www.myspace.com/normmacdonald

On 3/14/20 while onstage, Norm states "I am 68 years young". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-skA4GhVX7k&feature=emb_logo   (Chamblis edit)--[[User:Chamblis|Chamblis]] ([[User talk:Chamblis|talk]]) 15:56, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Which means either he's lying or he couldn't have attended grade school in the 70's or be 43  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.255.228.44|99.255.228.44]] ([[User talk:99.255.228.44|talk]]) 03:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:fact 1, hes a comedian. fact 2, myspace pages often have obviously fake ages, etc.[[User:Mercurywoodrose|Mercurywoodrose]] ([[User talk:Mercurywoodrose|talk]]) 03:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
::Fact 3: You read that in 2009. Things are different now, and everything you once believed about people's ages is a lie. And everything you loved about Myspace. Plus, I hope you're sitting down, because a bunch of Republican yahoos in America elected a cartoonishly overblown and incendiary WWE Hall of Famer to one of the highest public offices in the entire county! [https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/wwe-kane-mayor-707213/ No, seriously.]
::Norm Macdonald is today ten years younger than you thought he was when you called him a liar, and Bill Cosby is a convicted rapist. Michael Jackson is no longer remembered as a "homosexual pedophile", but as [https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8468816/michael-jackson-estate-sony-music-60th-birthday-las-vegas a 60-year-old junkie ghost whose soul is contractually bound to an evil Japanese record company that rents it out for birthday parties and "streaming services".] O.J. Simpson is wandering free in Las Vegas, assuring strangers that [https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2789852-oj-simpson-tells-fan-being-a-felon-aint-all-bad-at-las-vegas-restaurant being a felon ain't all bad.] ''Total Request Live'' is a thing again, hosted by [[Sway Calloway]], who seems nice. Don Ohlmeyer eventually got over his gambling problem, but the bookies beat him to death anyway. [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/don-ohlmeyer-man-who-fired-norm-macdonald-snl-dies-at-72-1037491 So he's dead.]
::Barbara Walters [http://obits.reviewjournal.com/obituaries/lvrj/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=149147750 died in Vegas in 2011] of mysterious causes, after many years of leading a secret double life as a bookie, wife of Donald and mother of Donald Jr (though [[fake news]] is a thing now, and some insist she's "actually" funding a state-of-the-art training centre and research facility for [https://nyrej.com/sarah-lawrence-college-awarded-2-million-grant-nys-higher-education-capital-matching damn dirty hippies] in New York). Mere hours ago, famed "good guy" Bill Clinton was tragically thrown under a speeding bus by what could have once been (and never again shall be) described as "a loyal army of prostitutes". [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/07/bill-clintons-name-stripped-from-nh-democratic-party-fundraising-gala-amid-me-too-movement.html He was 68.] [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] [[User_Talk:InedibleHulk|(talk)]] 00:07, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

"MACDONALD - On Saturday, October 17, 1959, to Mr. and Mrs. Percy Macdonald (nee Ferne Mains) Valcartier, Quebec, a son.  A brother for Neil." - Ottawa Citizen, October 23, 1959, page 44.  [[Special:Contributions/24.68.80.249|24.68.80.249]] ([[User talk:24.68.80.249|talk]]) 03:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

== Dubious to say that this Brandon Teena section is notable ==
" During the February 24, 1996, episode, Macdonald made a controversial joke about the sentencing of John Lotter, one of the two men who committed the notorious murder of Brandon Teena:[21][22]

    In Falls City, Nebraska, John Lotter has been sentenced to death for attempting to kill three people in what prosecutors called a plot to silence a cross-dressing female who had accused him of rape. Now this might strike some viewers as harsh, but I believe everyone involved in this story should die."
There are sources, but they seem kinda weak. The Menace letter seems like it's on the level of a blog post, basically. I don't think this was a sufficiently large controversy to merit inclusion. If someone has a substantitive disagreement about the size of the controversy or the standards for what should be included in this article, then speak now. If no one replies to this, I'll check back in a month or so and delete the Brandon Teena section. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Benevolent Prawn|Benevolent Prawn]] ([[User talk:Benevolent Prawn#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Benevolent Prawn|contribs]]) 21:11, 21 September 2020 (UTC)</span>

==Chronology in lead is messed up==

MacDonald was a full time writer and performer on SNL starting in September 1993. Both The Drew Carey Show and NewsRadio started on TV in fall 1995, but the lead says that he guest-starred on those shows before joining SNL. [[User:Predestiprestidigitation|Predestiprestidigitation]] ([[User talk:Predestiprestidigitation|talk]]) 07:39, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

==Dislike of the Term "Lost Battle With Cancer"==
This peeve of Norm's might be worth noting, as a the journalism class journalizes about this. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.59.126.42|96.59.126.42]] ([[User talk:96.59.126.42#top|talk]]) 23:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)</small>

== View on death ==

:Macdonald died from cancer in Los Angeles on September 14, 2021, at age 61. He had been diagnosed with the disease nine years prior, but had not publicly disclosed it.[74][75] 

This quote was attributed to Macdonald by someone on the internet.  At the moment I don't have a more exact source, but Macdonald supposedly said of his experience with cancer, "If you die, the cancer also dies at exactly the same time. That to me isn't losing a battle, it is a draw."  An interesting take.  Maybe that quote is usable with sufficient attribution. [[Special:Contributions/2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA|2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA]] ([[User talk:2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA|talk]]) 22:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
: I found [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-15/comic-norm-macdonald-dead-snl-weekend-update-dies/100462440 this source], however as the quote is dated as happening more than 9 years ago; before his diagnosis, many editors would deem it not relevant enough for inclusion. If someone wants to [[WP:BEBOLD]] and add it, be my guest — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 00:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

:I just found it [https://decider.com/2021/09/14/norm-macdonald-battling-cancer-routine/ ] here too, which also cites it as being from 2011.  But it's from today, and uses the quote in reporting about Macdonald's death from cancer, so I think it sufficiently connects the two events.  Therefore I'd support using it.  (Edited).  [[Special:Contributions/2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA|2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA]] ([[User talk:2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA|talk]]) 01:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

==On Norm Macdonald's purported death==

Shouldn't we avoid saying he's dead, since it's not true? [[Special:Contributions/146.196.38.76|146.196.38.76]] ([[User talk:146.196.38.76|talk]]) 21:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

:CNN has reported it and several celebrities have confirmed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2603:8001:400:5601:50ca:fcd8:9f1a:8327|2603:8001:400:5601:50ca:fcd8:9f1a:8327]] ([[User talk:2603:8001:400:5601:50ca:fcd8:9f1a:8327#top|talk]]) 06:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)</small>

== University ==

No mention of Carlton?--[[User:Artaxerxes|Artaxerxes]] ([[User talk:Artaxerxes|talk]]) 13:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

== Editing Over People - sorry ==
1993–1998: Saturday Night Live Section last 2 paragraphs

Apologize if I undid edits you just made. I worked on 2 paragraphs re SNL, added missing references, content and fixed english. 
It's hard to find Norm quotes from a page that isn't a wiki or blog, most of which copy us. 
[[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 00:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
:If we can't find them (it's ok if we reference SNL episodes btw), they should be removed. A quote shouldn't be attributed to someone without proof that they said it. - '''[[User:Floydian|<span style="color: #0051BA;">Floydian</span>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User_talk:Floydian|<span style="color: #3AAA3A;">τ</span>]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Floydian|<span style="color: #3AAA3A;">¢</span>]]</sub> 02:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The True Story of Norm Macdonald, Comedy’s Best Liar
A writer who got to know Norm remembers a generous, kind human being who also happened to be the funniest person on earth
By KALEB HORTON 
::[https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/norm-macdonald-tribute-appreciation-1226839/ excerpt from Rolling Stone article]
::"When, on SNL’s first episode after O.J. Simpson’s acquittal, he pronounced that “murder is legal in the state of California,” you could feel from the look on his face, the sound of the crowd, that he had just delivered the best late-night joke of all time. He knew it, and he wasn’t even smug. He was just pleased about his craftsmanship."

My edited paragraph

Macdonald repeatedly ridiculed public figures such as [[Bob Dole]], [[Marion Barry]], [[Bill Clinton]], [[Michael Jackson]], and [[O. J. Simpson]]. Throughout [[O. J. Simpson murder case|Simpson's murder trial]], Macdonald constantly pilloried the retired [[American football]] star, with''' the premise '''Simpson was guilty of the brutal slaying of his ex-wife and her friend, not 'innocent until proven guilty', the right of every American under law (in real life). On October 7, 1995, after Simpson had been acquitted on Tuesday, Macdonald opened Saturday Night's 'Weekend Update' by saying, "Well, it's finally official; murder is legal in the [[state of California]]."


::My comments on his comedic method were removed by editor who failed to understand my meaning, Please restore them, I was explaining his method, not being negative at all. [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:09, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
:::That paragraph reads as [[WP:SYNTH]]. You need secondary sources to cite that link {{tq|the premise Simpson was guilty of the brutal slaying of his ex-wife and her friend, not 'innocent until proven guilty', the right of every American under law (in real life)}}. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 18:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::::My cites are not in that version
::::My I edit article properly? [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::::see New Edit below
::::I restored my cites
::::this was well researched, that's where I got that line
::::I will remove the bold on "premise" [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::::https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/celebrity/how-norm-macdonalds-comedy-sets-your-expectations-before-pulling-the-rug-out-from-under-you
::::He settled in as host of Weekend Update, probably the most avant-garde take on the slot the show has had, and was rather famously dumped by NBC head Don Ohlmeyer, allegedly because he was too harsh on O.J. Simpson (though here Macdonald suggests it was because he had lightened up too much on the man he repeatedly called a murderer on national television).
::::In the right light, it can look something like moral clarity. For instance, Macdonald’s tenure on Weekend Update coincided with the O.J. Simpson trial. At a time when punchlines were not in short supply, Macdonald’s were devastating in their simplicity: '''all he did was point out O.J. was a murderer.''' Almost every joke, again and again. (He did something similar with Michael Jackson, who he relentlessly called a “homosexual pedophile.”) The bluntness is not just working against the usual chirpy sarcasm of a topical joke; it’s revelling in the absurdity of making cute jokes about such horrible subjects, piling on the bleakness of the world in a space we use as a relief valve from it. [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::::I went ahead and restored enhanced paragraph, making meaning clear, with proper citations [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

'''New Edit:'''

Macdonald repeatedly ridiculed public figures such as [[Bob Dole]], [[Marion Barry]], [[Bill Clinton]], [[Michael Jackson]], and [[O. J. Simpson]]. Throughout [[O. J. Simpson murder case|Simpson's murder trial]], Macdonald constantly pilloried the retired [[American football]] star, with''' the premise '''Simpson was guilty of the brutal slaying of his ex-wife and her friend, not 'innocent until proven guilty'<ref>{{Cite web|title=How Norm Macdonald's comedy sets your expectations before pulling the rug out from under you|url=https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/celebrity/how-norm-macdonalds-comedy-sets-your-expectations-before-pulling-the-rug-out-from-under-you|access-date=2021-09-15|website=nationalpost|language=en-CA}}</ref>, the right of every American under law<ref>{{Cite web|last=admin|date=2020-04-07|title=Understanding the 6th Amendment - US Constitution - LAWS.com|url=https://constitution.laws.com/american-history/constitution/constitutional-amendments/sixth-amendment|access-date=2021-09-15|website=Constitution of United States of America 1789|language=en-US}}</ref> (in real life). On October 7, 1995, after Simpson had been acquitted on Tuesday, Macdonald opened Saturday Night's 'Weekend Update' by saying, "Well, it's finally official; murder is legal in the [[state of California]]."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Norm MacDonald - The Last Dangerous SNL Castmember|url=http://funny115.com/norm/|access-date=2021-09-15|website=funny115.com}}</ref> Rolling Stone said, "When, on SNL’s first episode after O.J. Simpson’s acquittal, he pronounced that “murder is legal in the state of California,” you could feel from the look on his face, the sound of the crowd, that he had just delivered the best late-night joke of all time. He knew it, and he wasn’t even smug. He was just pleased about his craftsmanship."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Horton|first=Kaleb|last2=Horton|first2=Kaleb|date=2021-09-15|title=The True Story of Norm Macdonald, Comedy's Best Liar|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/norm-macdonald-tribute-appreciation-1226839/|access-date=2021-09-15|website=Rolling Stone|language=en-US}}</ref> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tillywilly17|contribs]]) </span>
{{reflist-talk}}

==Age at death==

Norm said his age was 68 during a standup show, "Norm Macdonald does standup about coronavirus," posted on YouTube Mar 13, 2020 at 4:40 into the sketch. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-skA4GhVX7k] [[User:Johnnyrev|Johnnyrev]] ([[User talk:Johnnyrev|talk]]) 15:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

:It's hard to believe what Norm says during one of his routines. He also talks about the drain from cocaine, do you believe that ?  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#1C0978">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 15:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

: I saw that. There didn't seem to be any reason for him to be joking about it. He seemed to be speaking philosophically about his possible death and he said he was "68 years young" (and got some applause), and he did not follow it up with any kind of joke or indication that he might be pretending to be older than he was. If he was telling the truth at the time, that would put his age at death at 69 years old; he would have been 70 next month (October 2021). Is it possible he had previously pretended he was younger than he was, for professional reasons? [[User:Embram|Embram]] ([[User talk:Embram|talk]]) 23:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::Well it is what it is, he's on stage at a comedy club doing his act, not pondering life and death, it's an act....  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#1C0978">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 15:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
:::WAIT! You mean to tell me he's not a talking pidgeon? [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 15:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
*Yeah, it's just a bit; Norm was known to regularly lie about his age to unbelievable degrees. You might remember that this article used to list his year of birth as 1963, simply because that's what he said for so long (mostly so he could claim he was younger than Conan). But there were [http://movies.yahoo.com/enjoy-supercut-norm-macdonald-lying-045512816.html other times] where he claimed to have been born as early as 1942. [[User:Nohomersryan|Nohomersryan]] ([[User talk:Nohomersryan|talk]]) 00:49, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

He goes out of his way to make 69 jokes. It seems. I watched him, and there was a model. He said something about his pulse being 8 less or something. Resting Pulse is 77. 77-8 is 69.

== Place of death ==

I noticed that a new Toronto Star article specifically gives the place of death as a hospital in [[Pasadena, California]]. [https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2021/09/14/comedy-giant-norm-macdonald-known-for-his-dry-wit-and-deadpan-humour-dies-at-61.html] This is courtesy of the family, and seems quite specific, so it might be true. (And it wouldn't surprise me to see Pasadena referred to in a non-California article as bare LA). Worth keeping in mind... [[User:Nohomersryan|Nohomersryan]] ([[User talk:Nohomersryan|talk]]) 13:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
: I take it that the article here listing the place of death as Los Angeles is not correct? [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/14/arts/television/norm-macdonald-dead.html] [[Special:Contributions/73.167.238.120|73.167.238.120]] ([[User talk:73.167.238.120|talk]]) 15:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
:: It is common for cities within Los Angeles County to be referred to as 'Los Angeles', especially by out-of-the-region news sources. Examples of this with Pasadena and Santa Monica are common. Both are within the county; both are cities in their own right. [[User:Rainbow-five|Rainbow-five]] ([[User talk:Rainbow-five|talk]]) 23:26, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

== Restored semi-deleted paragraph ==

Macdonald repeatedly ridiculed public figures such as [[Bob Dole]], [[Marion Barry]], [[Bill Clinton]], [[Michael Jackson]], and [[O. J. Simpson]]. Throughout [[O. J. Simpson murder case|Simpson's murder trial]], Macdonald constantly pilloried the retired [[American football]] star, with the premise Simpson was guilty of the brutal slaying of his ex-wife and her friend, not 'innocent until proven guilty'<ref>{{Cite web|title=How Norm Macdonald's comedy sets your expectations before pulling the rug out from under you|url=https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/celebrity/how-norm-macdonalds-comedy-sets-your-expectations-before-pulling-the-rug-out-from-under-you|access-date=2021-09-15|website=nationalpost|language=en-CA}}</ref>, the right of every American under law<ref>{{Cite web|last=admin|date=2020-04-07|title=Understanding the 6th Amendment - US Constitution - LAWS.com|url=https://constitution.laws.com/american-history/constitution/constitutional-amendments/sixth-amendment|access-date=2021-09-15|website=Constitution of United States of America 1789|language=en-US}}</ref> (in real life, not in Norm's joke). On October 7, 1995, after Simpson had been acquitted on Tuesday, Macdonald opened Saturday Night's 'Weekend Update' by saying, "Well, it's finally official; murder is legal in the [[state of California]]."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Norm MacDonald - The Last Dangerous SNL Castmember|url=http://funny115.com/norm/|access-date=2021-09-15|website=funny115.com}}</ref> Rolling Stone said, "When, on SNL’s first episode after O.J. Simpson’s acquittal, he pronounced that “murder is legal in the state of California,” you could feel from the look on his face, the sound of the crowd, that he had just delivered the best late-night joke of all time. He knew it, and he wasn’t even smug. He was just pleased about his craftsmanship."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Horton|first=Kaleb|last2=Horton|first2=Kaleb|date=2021-09-15|title=The True Story of Norm Macdonald, Comedy's Best Liar|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/norm-macdonald-tribute-appreciation-1226839/|access-date=2021-09-15|website=Rolling Stone|language=en-US}}</ref>


If anybody has a problem, please let me know[[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 18:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
:I reverted this. OJ is covered in the section below, the {{tq|the right of every American under law}} part is pure [[WP:SYNTH]]. There's also no need for a quote of his joke, and a quote from a magazine about it, as that is [[WP:UNDUE]]. Lastly, the {{tq|(in real life, not in Norm's joke)}} is just poorly written. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 19:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
::fine [[User:Tillywilly17|Tillywilly17]] ([[User talk:Tillywilly17|talk]]) 19:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
:If the joke is widely covered as a brilliant stand-out joke for SNL and Weekend Update, then there's an argument for including it. The rest is probably too wordy. [[User:Solipsism 101|Solipsism 101]] ([[User talk:Solipsism 101|talk]]) 12:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

== Awards & Honours ==

This page doesn't mention any awards or honours bestowed on Norm. How could that be possible??
[[Special:Contributions/96.127.198.43|96.127.198.43]] ([[User talk:96.127.198.43|talk]]) 18:20, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2021 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Norm Macdonald|answered=yes}}
I'm not exactly sure how to write it, on a locked page (never "suggested" anything for a locked page), so sorry in advance if this isn't correct, but:
Rodney Dangerfield should be added to Norm Macdonald's list of "influences". 
He has specifically listed Rodney Dangerfield, as an early influence in his episode of Jerry Seinfeld's "Comedians in Cars"; as well as, in an interview on Howard Stern. <ref>https://vulture.com/article/norm-macdonald-was-the-best-tv-guest.html</ref> [[User:MYgreycloud|MYgreycloud]] ([[User talk:MYgreycloud|talk]]) 23:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
: {{done}}. [[User:Ganbaruby|<span style="color:#960596">◢</span> <b><i style="background-color:#F7E3F7; color:#960596"> Ganbaruby! </i></b>]] <small>([[User talk:Ganbaruby|talk]])</small> 05:03, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Death announcement on Wikipedia (in the news) ==

Sorry I don't where's the best place to ask this, but his recent death nomination for the front page was archived without having been closed. (Actually this seems to happen a lot.) Does that mean that he will never be listed in recent deaths? Because it's becoming less and less "recent". However one of the votes was to "wait", which seems odd. [[User:DAVilla|DAVilla]] ([[User talk:DAVilla|talk]]) 10:10, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2021 ==

{{Edit semi-protected|Norm Macdonald|answered=yes}}
Change "Based on A True Story" under section 6.3 from non-fiction to fiction. He refers to it as a novel in his standup special "Hitler's Dog, Gossip & Trickery" at approximately timestamp 30:17.<ref>[https://www.netflix.com/title/80134780 Norm Macdonald: Hitler's Dog, Gossip & Trickery] on [https://www.netflix.com Netfilx]</ref> 

[[User:DannyFist|DannyFist]] ([[User talk:DannyFist|talk]]) 04:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> The Library of Congress<ref>''[https://catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/search?searchCode=LCCN&searchArg=2016014108&searchType=1&permalink=y&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_NooAnrprgFK7PPjmCpGWn04JCGW.pNYwXoSE5EASaaM-1632392177-0-gqNtZGzNAmWjcnBszQhR Based on a true story : a memoir]'' at the Library of Congress Catalog</ref> lists it as an autobiography, and the book's colophon suggests that it is non-fiction<ref>
''[https://www.amazon.com/Based-True-Story-Not-Memoir-ebook/dp/B01B0K989W Based on a True Story: Not a Memoir]'' on [[Amazon.com]]</ref>. —&nbsp;[[User:LauritzT|LauritzT]]&nbsp;([[User talk:LauritzT|talk]]) 10:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
::I'm not saying we should change anything, but from a NYT review of the book: {{tq|A memoir in the sense that it’s roughly organized by the timeline of Mr. Macdonald’s life and career, this book is absurd fiction in many of its details, even the most basic ones. “I was a hick, born to the barren, rocky soil of the Ottawa Valley, where the richest man in town was the barber,” Mr. Macdonald writes. He actually was born and raised in Quebec City. Likewise, he may have had an intense crush on Sarah Silverman during their time on “Saturday Night Live” together, but he most probably didn’t have Colin Quinn help him arrange a hit on the life of Dave Attell, a fellow comedian and rival suitor... The book is also structured around a fictional (or partly real, who’s to say) road trip to Las Vegas undertaken by Mr. Macdonald and a friend.}}[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/books/norm-macdonalds-often-funny-always-fabulist-based-on-a-true-story.html] It seems like non-fiction is straining at it's edges to describe this work. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:53, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

The author himself called it a novel. The colophon says not a memoir. The content of the book includes a terminally ill boy being restored to health by clubbing a seal to death, a large section on Rodney Dangerfield's secret being that he gets no respect (a major theme of his stand-up material), and the ghost writer being killed for Norm's gambling debt. It is a farcical fiction making fun of any reader daring to read it as a memoir [[User:DannyFist|DannyFist]] ([[User talk:DannyFist|talk]]) 07:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

== The placing of faith in Christianity in 'Death' rather than personal life ==

Currently reading this page, Norm's faith in Christianity is placed in the 'Death' section. There are three articles referenced, one of which is a new york times article which reads as worthy for reference, but the other two references are clearly and openly Christian outlets with a Christian agenda, which is fine for a website, but makes them poor references for an encyclopaedia. In any case, I think it would be more appropriate to discuss his faith in the 'Personal life' section, because even if the articles were written after his death, none of the quotations within the cited references pertaining to his faith are recent and he made no statements about his faith in relation to his illness. Putting his faith in the 'Death' section has an implicit religiosity about it and suggests faith is related to death, so to me violates one of wikipedia's 5 pillars - to write from a point of neutrality.

This is just a suggestion I'll leave it up you all

This just seems to be a placement for ulterior motives and having no relation or importance to this article whatsoever. Why would an encyclopedia mention the opining of media personalities? It should be removed unless there is a reason for its inclusion. The mention that it was mentioned is not noteworthy.
[[Special:Contributions/2601:182:4381:E60:BC56:B2A9:E3C2:CD67|2601:182:4381:E60:BC56:B2A9:E3C2:CD67]] ([[User talk:2601:182:4381:E60:BC56:B2A9:E3C2:CD67|talk]]) 15:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* [[commons:File:Norm MacDonald, Sarah Silverman, Dave Chappelle, Elaine Stritch in Screwed (2000).jpg|Norm MacDonald, Sarah Silverman, Dave Chappelle, Elaine Stritch in Screwed (2000).jpg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy | 2021-10-11T14:24:40.036121 | Norm MacDonald, Sarah Silverman, Dave Chappelle, Elaine Stritch in Screwed (2000).jpg -->
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 14:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

==Unflattering picture?==

There must be a good reason for choosing this particular photograph to represent Norm? If the goal is to use a photo that best portrays what he looked like, I don't think this wide lens photo, taken under such terrible lighting conditions really does him any justice. I'd like to go ahead and change it, but I'd be happy to hear what the reasons for this photograph in particular might be.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/102.132.212.3|102.132.212.3]] ([[User talk:102.132.212.3#top|talk]]) 10:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:We are limited to pictures which have open copyright. [[User:Solipsism 101|Solipsism 101]] ([[User talk:Solipsism 101|talk]]) 23:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

== Main photograph. ==

Please could we change the first photo on the page. Norm was hilarious and used his disease and treatment for comedic value but his weight gain is directly correlated to a steroid prescription in combination of chemotherapy. I don't believe he was happy with that fact he gained weight, which is why he addressed it so frequently to disvalue it because he didn't want his fans and colleagues to realise he was ill. If there's a second life, or whatever, I think he would like to be remembered in way that showed HIM and not his illness. Please comply for us all. It's been a rough few years, we need some humanity.
: As noted above, there are limited images with a compatible license that we can use. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 23:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

== "Reflecting on the state of modern comedy, he bemoaned the influx of dramatic actors into comedy and comedians into dramatic acting." ==

I read the cited interview, and it was just him saying that he didn't understand why guys like Steve Martin and Jim Carey took dramatic roles when they wouldn't be as good as actual dramatic actors. That had no relation to his views on "the state of modern comedy" at all. [[Special:Contributions/103.119.209.255|103.119.209.255]] ([[User talk:103.119.209.255|talk]]) 22:12, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

== Sexual allegations ==

There are some problems with that section. First, the interview is a primary source, so cherry picking one response isn't great. We need secondary sources to provide context and weight. The second part is sourced entirely to The Daily Beast which has no consensus at RSP. Currently, that section is also very large in proportion to the rest of the article, with long quotes. If no other sources covered this, it's probably not [[WP:DUE]]. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 22:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

== Christian Faith ==

I have probably an easily reconciled issue with the sentence concerning Christian Faith.  The source is an editorial opinion, perhaps makes good arguments but who can decide?  The author goes over various articles of Macdonald's comedy material where in his view it means Macdonald was routing for Christianity.  I don't think there is enough in the article to qualify this as valid, although, this could be easily resolved if there were other sources that confirmed it.  If we were to go by his act, his comic material, we would be lost trying to find personal beliefs.  Yes, we can try and draw conclusions and idle speculation to entertain readers, but that isn't fact.  I think the sentence should be stricken since mentioning an editorial opinion of someone who is not noteworthy or related (the author never met Macdonald) goes against good source criteria.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AggiesNeverLie|AggiesNeverLie]] ([[User talk:AggiesNeverLie#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AggiesNeverLie|contribs]]) 22:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Reply: 

There are multiple interviews including one with Larry King where he admits to being a Christian, he is more serious in the others though. Not only that, but in the last couple of years there are multiple reports that at the end of his show he would tell everyone, markedly shifting his tone, that "The only way to Heaven is by believing in Jesus Christ". Molly Shannon at the end of his posthumous stand up special "Nothing Special" also talked about how for the past 12-13 years Norm had gotten very much into reading about God and Christianity. I must admit though that not being a wikipedia editor, but just a huge Norm Macdonald fan, I suffer from the laziness of not looking up all the refrences of him and others talking about his faith, but it was something that was very important to him.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.233.110.107|213.233.110.107]] ([[User talk:213.233.110.107#top|talk]]) 11:09, 12 June 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Another of Norm's Voice Acting Jobs ==

Norm was also in the Fairy OddParents as a character called Norm The Genie [[Special:Contributions/2600:4040:2373:3C00:ADDE:45D:C806:E5C7|2600:4040:2373:3C00:ADDE:45D:C806:E5C7]] ([[User talk:2600:4040:2373:3C00:ADDE:45D:C806:E5C7|talk]]) 12:49, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

== Including the subject's words with no secondary sourcing ==

In [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norm_Macdonald&curid=3120309&diff=1104293818&oldid=1104135956&diffmode=source this] edit YouTube videos are being used as sourcing. The issue I see with this is that as a primary source with no secondary sourcing the is no indication these particular quotes or views are noteworthy. If we go down the road of picking a video Macdonald is in and summarizing it we'll end up with a book of anecdotes, and not an encyclopedia article. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 02:18, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

:I believe they are note worthy because out of hundreds of clips, Norm very rarely speaks seriously.
:In the show "Last Comic Standing", there are very few clips from Norm offering criticism that can be added in the same way as the Harry Potter criticism was added. One clip per TV Show will not lead to an article the length of the book.
:As for his interview with his sister-in-law, this again was a very very rare interview. The interview itself was mainly focused on Norm's view on comedy and Norm did not do many other interview's like this.
:Norm was a very well-educated comedian and the section about his view's on comedy should do justice to this, as it is the section is too short and barely says anything about him. 
:I would be happy to have the whole section re-written into something like a mini-essay once we manage to piece together his views a bit more, but for now these rare clips are all we have to go off of. [[User:Flavo Felicitia|Flavo Felicitia]] ([[User talk:Flavo Felicitia|talk]]) 02:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
::The problem with that is that ''you're'' deciding what interviews and anecdotes are pertinent and noteworthy. That's not our job, that's what we rely on reliable secondary sources for. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 02:35, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
:::No I'm not. I am saying that these sources are noteworthy because they are so few and far between we can include all of them and still not have enough. I don't think I could find another two clips like these to include. There is the Bill Maher criticism on Larry King, and thats about it. If we did end up finding a whole bunch of clips and the section got too long, then chances are we would be able to find secondary sources about his views summarising those clips. 
:::Maybe as time goes on, that is what will happen, but for now, this is all we have to work with.
:::So no, I am not choosing, I am simply adding all of the clips because they are so rare. We know so little about his personal life, that every little bit we can find becomes noteworthy. [[User:Flavo Felicitia|Flavo Felicitia]] ([[User talk:Flavo Felicitia|talk]]) 02:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
::::But according to whom are sources such as these so few and far between? Your [[WP:OR|research]]? I don't think "this is the best we have" should be considered sufficient reason for inclusion unless reliable sources have noted a distinct lack of clips of Macdonald speaking seriously. I disagree with your assertion that things inherently become noteworthy just because they're rare. If you can provide sources that have commented on the rarity of such clips, I'll be happy to reconsider. [[User:Doniago|DonIago]] ([[User talk:Doniago|talk]]) 13:56, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Hello,
:::::Thank you for joining the discussion and sorry I dissapeared.
:::::I can definitely see your point however I'm still having a problem with the initial premise that these additions are not due because there are no secondary sources. Rare or not the additions add information to the article which is not insignificat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the point of Due? You can't make a wiki page about your dad because no one cares. But you can make a wiki page for a well-known comedian because people do care about him.
:::::Similarly, you can't just put in every quote where Norm expressed an opinion because you think it's interesting. Sure, I agree with that. Ideally you would also have other sources referencing that opinion to show that people care about it.
:::::However, when Norm criticised the Harry Potter joke, it showed he believed that all jokes should be well-researched and accurate, that was his criticism. Are you going to say that is so insignificant that it should not be included? Are you going to say that no one cares about how well-researched Norm was? On that basis I could delete the entire section on Norm's views on comedy because none of those other thing's have secondary sources in them either.
:::::Same thing with the Joyce Napier interview, or with the Bill Maher criticism, they were interviews where Norm was telling us his views on comedy. Are you going to say those are insignificant simply because no journalist has written an article titled "Norm's views on comedy" and included it?
:::::I totally understand where you are coming from. We shouldn't just fill up the page with anecdotes. But we also shouldn't leave the whole page bare simply because we can't find a secondary source. If that mean's we have to do a bit of decision making of our own, then its not a big deal. We can be responsible with it. And again, if we manage to find more robust sources and information, I will gladly take out the additions myself and replace them with that! 
:::::Also, about you saying that I should show the Norm clips are rare. I would love to, the only issue is, that you cannot prove a negative. The best I can do is encourage you to look for information about Norm's views on comedy outside of this article? You'll find yourself watching the same youtube clips as me because there aren't that many of them and no one has really written about the topic (again because they are rare). It would make more sense for me to say, well please go out and find a whole bunch of examples of Norm talking seriously about his views on comedy and prove they are not rare. The reason it makes more sense is because "there are plenty of clips" is a positive claim, whereas "there aren't many clips" is a negative claim. Burden of proof is on the positive claim. 
:::::Please let me know if you need me to clarify any of the above, I am in a bit of a rush right now.
:::::Thank you! [[User:Flavo Felicitia|Flavo Felicitia]] ([[User talk:Flavo Felicitia|talk]]) 08:01, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Hello,
:::::Just quickly I managed to find one article about the topic
:::::https://jacobin.com/2021/10/norm-macdonald-anti-politics-anti-comedy-snl-subversion-stand-up
:::::If you look through it, you'll find the author can't find enough primary sources of Norm telling us his views. So instead he uses jokes Norm told and tries to draw his politic and comedy opinions from it (which we can both recognise is a stupid thing to do, you can't use jokes as evidence of opionions).
:::::Again you can't prove a negative, but article's like this show you just how rare Norm's talking seriously is. [[User:Flavo Felicitia|Flavo Felicitia]] ([[User talk:Flavo Felicitia|talk]]) 08:08, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Hello Scottish,
:::I'm not sure if this issue has been resolved, but I am on Flavo's side here. I was reading the article just now and noticed it was a little bare bones. I went through the page history and noticed you have reverted interesting and useful additions to the page multiple times because you do not think they are due.
:::I saw that you also reverted a bit about Norm's only other known relationship with Elle Macpherson because you also didn't think it was due.
:::But, as Flavo pointed out, since we know so little about known, any additional information is due. 
:::I am going to re-introduce both changes and I suggest you be careful using Red Warn in the future as you seem to have discouraged two potential new editors to Norm's page by abusing this feature in just the last two months. [[Special:Contributions/49.181.220.141|49.181.220.141]] ([[User talk:49.181.220.141|talk]]) 23:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
::::You should not reintroduce disputed content until there is a [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] to do so. That would be disruptive editing, and I disagree with the claim that the alleged rarity of information about Macdonald inherently means that any available information becomes that much more notable, especially when this discussion hasn't established that there's any genuinely perceived rarity of such material other than the claims of editors thus far. [[User:Doniago|DonIago]] ([[User talk:Doniago|talk]]) 13:58, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

== Louis C.K. dedicated his "Sorry" special to Norm MacDonald ==

I really think it would be appropriated to add that Louis C.K. dedicated to him his 2021 special "Sorry" in the "Illness, death and legacy" section. [[User:Clyde Paquin|Clyde Paquin]] ([[User talk:Clyde Paquin|talk]]) 13:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

== Poor sourcing ==

Source 34 is a random tweet from a protected account from a non-qualified non-expert Twitter user. There's video out there of the exact joke, so either link that or let the joke be self-evident. In any case, sourcing like this is shameful and a great example why schools don't allow papers to cite Wikipedia. [[Special:Contributions/50.40.240.111|50.40.240.111]] ([[User talk:50.40.240.111|talk]]) 00:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)