View source for Talk:Mustard gas

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{{American English}}
== Blistering method ==
Is it known how the Mustard gas causes blisters? [[User:AxelBoldt|AxelBoldt]] 19:03 Oct 10, 2002 (UTC)

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/mustardg.htm  has more detail than some of the other Web pages I've seen. Any help?

== Odor ==

mustard gas does have an odor, it is one that made people tear and start to bleed from the inside.  Coughing and vomiting came after being exposed to the poison

There is something not quite right here: it the first section, Mustard gas is said to be odorless, while further down in the article is "has a distinct odor", these two don't mix.

Also I am in doubt whether the first statement of Mustard gas being odorless is really true, as far as I know the name does NOT come from the color of the substance, but from a very light odor resembling [[Mustard plant|mustard]] or [[garlic]]. I will try to find references on this.

:I changed the statement about odorlessness a bit to correspond with the source mentioned in the link at the bottom. -- [[User:Nixdorf|Jörgen Nixdorf]]

:There is still the odorless...smells like mustard inconsistancy in the first two sentences.  Can someone competent fix this?[[User:69.207.22.219|69.207.22.219]] 06:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::It also says that they are colourless and then that they're yellow-brown coloured in the next sentence.  I'm assuming that one means in its purified form and the other in its common form (whatever that might be) but I'm not changing the article on the basis of a guess...[[User:Cbh|Chris]] 12:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

LMAO
O.K. guys, try reading the whole article.
It states that, " Pure sulfur mustards are colorless, odorless, viscous liquids at room temperature. However, when used in impure form as warfare agents they are usually yellow-brown in color and has an odor".

== Polymerisation ==

How the compound with single bonds only can be polymerised?
--[[User:Grzes|Grzes]] 01:23, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Elimination of HCl could generate double bonds; also homolytic cleavage of C-Cl and C-S bonds could give rise to unclean polymerisation via radical mechanisms.

== Fatality Rate ==

The Wikipedia article states:

"Mustard gas was dispersed as an aerosol in a mixture with other chemicals, giving it a yellow-brown colour and a distinctive odour. Mustard gas was lethal in only about 1% of cases."

The article I linked to: https://ccc.apgea.army.mil/sarea/products/textbook/Web_Version/chapters/chapter_7.htm#mustard states:

"The British had 180,983 chemical casualties; the injuries of 160,970 (88%) were caused solely by mustard. Of these casualties, 4,167 (2.6%) died. Of the 36,765 single-agent U.S. chemical casualties, the injuries of 27,711 (75%) were caused solely by mustard. Of the casualties who reached a medical treatment facility (MTF), 599 (2.2%) died."

With a reference to:
Gilchrist HL. Statistical consideration of gas casualties, I: Gas casualties. In: Weed FW, ed. Medical Aspects of Gas Warfare. Vol 14. In: The Medical Department of the United States Army in the World War. Washington, DC: Government Printing Office; 1926: 273–279."

Later in the textbook:

"Mustard-related death occurs in about 3% of the casualties who reach an MTF; of those who die, most die 4 or more days after exposure ... Of the casualties who died, 84% required at least 4 days of hospitalization. The causes of death are usually pulmonary insufficiency from airway damage, superimposed infection, and sepsis. Rarely, the amount of mustard will be overwhelming and cause death within 1 to 2 days; in these circumstances, death might be due to neurological factors or massive airway damage."

However, it does state that in modern times (The Iran-Iraq war) there are even fewer fatalities due to mustard exposure.

The Textbook of Military Medicine Article aligns with my previous knowledge of the fatality rate of mustard gas, and provides a reference.

Perhaps an even more ambitious edit could go through both the textbook and the wiki article and add references to the wiki article backing up some facts.  I may do it in about a month, but I have never edited an article before, and time is scarce at the moment.

BTW, I am assuming that this textbook is under the public domain - it is produced by the government.

== This was in the article ==

I just noticed, www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mustard-gas has the exact same data for mustard gas as wikipedia does. Who has the rights to this?

Some guy posted this in the article, thinking it was the discussion.

* This data was copied directly from us (from me, in fact: I wrote most of that text). If you're skeptical, take a look at their [http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/ main page] Of course, they're allowed to do that under the GNU Public License, so long as they don't try to sell it. &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 13:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC).
:*Actually, they can sell it all they like— that is part of the nature of the GNU license: that it is free for anyone to use for any purpose, including possible commercial reuse.  But they are not free to do so without giving proper credit to the original source.  [[User:KDS4444|KDS4444]] ([[User talk:KDS4444|talk]]) 18:57, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

== Pesticide? ==

Does anyone know of mustard gas left over from the World Wars being used as a pesticide? I've heard of it being used on tobacco and cotton crops in Georgia well into the 1960s.[[User:170.215.105.20|170.215.105.20]] 08:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
* I've never heard of any such thing, and if it's true then it was an exceedingly reckless thing to use. While I think it's very unlikely, I'll look into it and see what I can find. &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 13:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
::http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/content/metro/stories/05/11cyanide.html
::Cyanide gas canister found in an abandoned cotton gin. Says here it was used to kill insects in the grain and cotton seed, doesn't say if it was military surplus. Use of dangerous chemicals such as this was (and perhaps still is) actually quite common in poorer areas of rural America.[[User:12.150.117.30|12.150.117.30]] 17:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
:::Cyanide is a ''very'' different thing from mustard gas, though: it was commonly used as a pesticide (an still is, in many places), whicle mustard gas has only seen very limited non-military applications. &ndash; [[User:ClockworkSoul|Clockwork]][[User_talk:ClockworkSoul|<b>Soul</b>]] 01:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
:well it will kill everything so i mean it would be a good pesticide. but you likely won't have any plants either. [[User:Taffy boeing b 17|Taffy boeing b 17]] ([[User talk:Taffy boeing b 17|talk]]) 19:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

== Article focus ==

'''Mustard gas''' redirects here.  I think it's safe to say that many, many more people are going to be searching for that term than this one, looking for information on its use as a weapon.  And yet this article only mentions its military use at the very end of the second paragraph, almost in passing!  I think that, at the very least, if '''mustard gas''' ''is'' going to redirect here it should be the primary focus of the first paragraph.  In general, though, I think that they should either be seperate articles or placed at '''mustard gas'''; aren't articles supposed to be placed under the name by which they're more commonly called? --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 00:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

== Removed some external links ==

In the external links section, two references were named which contain errors, I have moved them here:
*[http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Chemistry/MOTM/mustard/mustard.htm Bristol University - Basic Chemical Overview]
:This reference has several errors in it: 
:# The Fredrick Guthrie synthesis should be from ethylene and SCl<sub>2</sub>, not ethylene and Cl<sub>2</sub> as stated.
:# The [[hydrolysis]] reaction pathway produces two molecules of HCl and the last one produced is H<sub>2</sub>O, not three molecules of HCl as shown in the reference.
:# The molecular structure given for nitrogen mustard (N-mustard) is not correct. The nitrogen atom should have a hydrogen bonded to it.
:# The bulleted item describing HT at the beginning of the article suggests that T is a nitrogen mustard, this is incorrect. T is a sulfur mustard, specifically Bis[1(2-chloroethylthio)ethyl] ether, according to Department of the Army Field Manual (DA FM) 3-9, Potential Military Chemical/Biological agents and compounds, 1990.
*[http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/M/mustardg.html Organic chemistry of mustard gas]
:This reference also has an error in it: in the sentence on synthesis of mustard gas, the phrase "sulfur monochloride, S<sub>2</sub>Cl<sub>2</sub>" should be "sulfur dichloride, SCl<sub>2</sub>"
Maybe someone can find better references for this?  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 15:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

== Use of references ==
The use of mustard gas described as "Soviet Union in Xinjiang, China in 1934 and 1936-1937" needs better references; ref. 4 does not seem to contain any mention of this, and ref. 2 is a table that merely repeats the assertion.

== Corrections to HT ==

I have corrected the entry for the chemical composition of HT in the first part of the article. As pointed out by Beetstra, HT is a mixture of bis(2-chloroethyl) sulfide and bis[2-(2-chloroethylthio)ethyl]ether. See article http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg165.pdf. --[[User:Cwcchemist|Cwcchemist]] 15:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


== Ambergris? ==

I have been warned that stuff that looks like amber can be mustard gas.
But how could it be mistaken for ambergris? There are no sperm whales in the Baltic sea and ambergris should be completely unknown. Amber is frequently found in the southern Baltic. Amber would make sense, ambergris not.
           --[[User:88.115.120.116|88.115.120.116]] 21:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is gold hahaha [[User:Jogandsp|Science Is My Life]] ([[User talk:Jogandsp|talk]]) 01:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

== Merge from [[Sesquimustard]] ==

I've merged the article [[Sesquimustard]] to [[Sulfur mustard]]. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] <sup>([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])</sup> <small>2007-02-28 06:35Z</small></i></span>

== CBWinfo.com ==
Is this really a valid source?  The link provided is filled with historical inaccuracies, typos, original research, and personal bias. --[[User:NEMT|NEMT]] 22:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

==Lost==

Wilhelm Steinkopf (* 1879, † 1949) and W. Lommel--[[User:Stone|Stone]] ([[User talk:Stone|talk]]) 10:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

== Moving "Forumations" section down ==

I think this should be moved a couple of sections down. It should logically be presented after the effects and the history of the compound have been introduced. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 12:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

== Names ==

Does anyone have the first names for Lommel and Steinkopf?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.60.13.45|75.60.13.45]] ([[User talk:75.60.13.45|talk]]) 00:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Huns never used Hun stuff? ==

There's an apparent contradiction in that "Hun stuff" is defined in the article as a crude mixture made by the Levinstein Process - yet the Germans, as the honorary Huns, are described using a different process with a different precursor.  Even the British are described, at the end of the war, as beginning to synthesize the compound by yet another synthesis.  So we have in the article that neither the Germans nor anyone in World War I used the formulation of the compound that is named as "Hun stuff" ... which seems odd. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 23:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
:The Germans never reffered to it as "Hun Stuff", their codenames for the agent were "LOST" and "Gelbkreuz" respectively. As the imperial german army/artillery first used mustard agent shells in the night of 12-13 July 1917 in the Ypres Salient area, mainly concentrating on the British/Commonwealth positions in the northern part of the Salient, they deployed some 50,000 shells (75 and 105 mm caliber mainly). Some of these shells gone dud and were recovered in the following days by the Brits as the devastating delayed effects became clear (this single attack alone caused many thousand casualties on the British side and postponed the planned allied offensive in that summer for 2-3 weeks). These dud shells were easily recognised because of the yellow cross marking they had and were sent to Porton Down for further investigation. Soldiers dreaded this new agent, giving it the colloquial name Hun Stuff, which was swiftly used in official reports (as "H.S.", or later simply "H"). Analyse in Porton Down identified the agent in few days as bis(2-chloroethyl)sulfide. Efforts were made to get the production on allied side running in an industrial scale to be able to retaliate in kind, but they failed to accomplish that for almost a year following. One of the reasons was that neither British nor French or American industry at that time could reach to the massive scale production of 2-chloroethanol/ethylene chlorohydrine (Bayer AG manufactured this precursor even before WW I in a kiloton-year-scale as a intermediary product for the dye industry, so that they could later rapidly divert these existing capacities for a large scale produciton of sulfur mustard); the Allies focused on the "direct" method of addition of sulfur chloride on ethene, which was however not mastered until well into 1918 and yielded a crude product, containing on average ~70% HD, which was not as effective and storage-stable as the highly pure (over 95% HD, the rest being mainly the even more toxic T) german agent. Therefore towards the end of the war, the crude british product was labeled "H"/HS", due to need for rapid buildup of a stockpile that could be used straigthforward on the front. Only after the end of the war, the Brits, Americans and the French began to further purify this agent by vacuum-distilling it, resulting in HD/Pyro. Cheers--[[Special:Contributions/93.192.168.250|93.192.168.250]] ([[User talk:93.192.168.250|talk]]) 20:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

== "No use other then chemical warfare" ==
This sentence, in the introduction, is not actually true. Mustard gases are sometimes used in organic syntehsis. Sulfur and nitrogen mustards are also an innovative field for the development of anti-tumoral drugs. (source: "Organic Chemistry", aut.: Brown, Foote, Iverson) [[User:Giupio|Giupio]] 14:26 april 9, 2009  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 12:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Wouldn't it be easier to just not mix Sulfur with anything?23:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.171.222.157|70.171.222.157]] ([[User talk:70.171.222.157|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I agree, I believe the sentence should read "...as substances with little or no use other than in chemical warfare.". This is the definition of Schedule 1 in the CWC, plus it is more accurate since the nitrogen mustards were also used for chemotherapy.[[Special:Contributions/70.60.102.9|70.60.102.9]] ([[User talk:70.60.102.9|talk]]) 18:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Mustard agents were actually among the first chemotherapy agents. If this is not already in the article, it should be added. If it IS already in the article then the quote in question is contradictory  [[User:Jogandsp|Science Is My Life]] ([[User talk:Jogandsp|talk]]) 01:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

== Phase -- gas, vapour, liquid? ==

I've deleted the incorrect sentence saying that mustard gas is not a gas because it is a [[vapour]] (i.e., a gas).  If someone wants to replace it with a correct statement about it being a liquid, feel free. [[User:LachlanA|LachlanA]] ([[User talk:LachlanA|talk]]) 03:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

:I would like to replace the opening statement "commonly known as" with the correct "erroneously known as". When dispersed, it is a vapor akin to rain clouds{{em dash}}a fog, which is a suspension of a liquid. The only 'gas' is the atmosphere in which it is dispersed, not the mustard agent itself. This is explained further within the same paragraph, but we should stop calling it a gas, otherwise we'll never get it right.<BR>
:[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 18:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

== Mechanism ==

The following has been removed from the "Mechanism of toxicity" section because it is more appropriate here:

:Mechanism is wrong! See http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tox.2005.06.014

I don't have access to the article, so I can't verify the claim. I'll leave it to the chemists among us to check this.&mdash;[[User:Tetracube|Tetracube]] ([[User talk:Tetracube|talk]]) 20:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

== Some sources seems to outdated ==

Thsi source seems to be outdated: 
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Chemical/Blister/HD.shtml

Especially datas about using sulphur gas in Poland 1939 are good for nothing. It seems to be a copied from "SIPRI" publication: "The Problems of Chemical and Biological Warfare, t. I, The Rise of CB Weapons", Sztokholm 1971, p. 154-155.

This is copied from Mathias Kräutlera and Karl Springenschmidt book "Es War ein Edelweiss. Schicksal und Weg der zweiten Gebirgsdivision", Graz-Stuttgart 1962), p. 20-21.

And news here are taken straight from German war-propaganda.

This is explained in this division commander - general Valentin Feurstein - "Irrwege der Pflicht 1938-1945" (München-Wels 1963) p. 13.


So-
"In 1939, Polish troops used chemical training mines containing diluted mustard agent to mine a bridge near Jaslo, injuring 14 German soldiers. It is unclear..."


It is clear now. Polish Army had some gas bombs in depots, Germans found a lot of them, but not in Jaslo. Polish units defending the city (1. pulk KOP) was a reserve units without regular chemical platoon and was not prepared for chemical warfare. 
Somebody had to be real moron, to mine a bridge.
Using chemical in the middle of the mountain river?


Here is a text - unfortunately in Polish:
http://www.schwrp-wroc.com/dodatki/biuletyn/biuletyn2/uzyciebrchemicznej.htm

Here is a picture of so-called "cemical explosion":
 http://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/216/h:436/


There is an article about this accident: Robert Michulec, "Gazem w 1939 roku", Magazyn Wojna! Nr.5/6 2004r. str. 22. but not online :(

T.Pawlowski  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.222.38.29|85.222.38.29]] ([[User talk:85.222.38.29|talk]]) 19:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Inconsistency with Nitrogen Mustard article ==

In the [[Nitrogen mustard]] article it mentions that "It is a common myth that the drug mustine was developed after a war accident in 1943 in Bari, Italy"  They cite an article that mentions that a group at Yale was performing classified human clinical trials of nitrogen mustards in the fall of 1942, a year before the incident at Bari. But, muddling the issue, in this article a cited book (Author: Faguet, Guy B.) that focuses on the Bari incident but also acknowledges that there were previous experiments and also mentions that during WWI doctors noticed decreased white cell counts in exposed soldiers. The book summarizes that after the war ended the combination of the Bari aftermath and the subsequently declassified human clinical trials lead to the development of the first anti-cancer drugs.

Based on the combination of these sources and the medical significance of the development of the first anti-cancer drugs I would suggest creating a new section after Use and before Disposal expanding on the development of mustards into anti-cancer drugs. Additionally, I would suggest updating the [[Nitrogen mustard]] article to discuss both events (the Bari incident and the Yale trials. As it is, the articles seem to be in competition with each other over which event was the "true" inspiration. Finally, on the [[Air Raid on Bari]] talk page someone suggested adding a section to that article about the development of anti-cancer drugs. Perhaps adding a blurb in the Bari page that links back to this page and it's (soon to be) expanded section about drug development. [[User:Falconerd|Falconerd]] ([[User talk:Falconerd|talk]]) 06:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

==Unecessary deletion of photos==
Why have so many useful photos with explanatory captions been deleted? A picture is worth a thousand words and some things can't be adequately described using text. If it's a question of having a neat & tidy layout for this Wikipedia article, then surely the photos could be moved to a separate "gallery" section at the end. Here are examples of the photos I'm talking about e.g. one of the deleted photos actually shows what mustard gas looks like. Hopefully, someone can explain the logic behind deleting the only free-use photo of mustard gas available on the web depicting the Wikipedia subject being described because frankly, I'm puzzled:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Toxic_gas_set_(CAIS)_bottle_containing_sulfur_mustard_(HD).jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MustardGasBurns2.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MustardGasChemicalBurns.JPG

[[User:Nabokov|Nabokov]] ([[User talk:Nabokov|talk]]) 12:24, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

== Use of mustard gas under the Bush Administration ==


What was the involvement of the Bush Administration in the use of mustard gas in the Gulf War?  I recall from televised coverage that the Administration sponsored the use of nerve gas and bulldozing techniques of large populations, ending the war.  This is not listed in your account.  Please verify. 

[[Special:Contributions/75.198.149.142|75.198.149.142]] ([[User talk:75.198.149.142|talk]]) 21:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)Christine

:IMHO there's no need to verify such total nonsense. Regards, [[User:Lost Boy|Lost Boy]] ([[User talk:Lost Boy|talk]]) 11:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

== Natural Degradation ==

As there is a lot of it dumped in oceans and other places, it would be interesting if there was any information available about natural degradation into other compounds. Under which circumstances it takes place, how rapid the process can be and so on. Does not anyone have that kind of data?--[[User:Mlewan|Mlewan]] ([[User talk:Mlewan|talk]]) 04:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
: Mustard readily hydrolyses to form Thiodiglycol. However, since this happens only in solution or at the pase border, and mustard poorly dissolves in water, the effective hydrolysis is quite slow. It is safe to assume that the mustards leeking from submerged grenades doesn'travel very far before being hydrolysed.
: Viscous/thickened Mustard is a different story, since the thickener prevents but the outer layer of mustard coming in contact with the sea water. This mixture (THD) was used munitioned extensively in the "Spray Can 37" (Srprühbüchse 37, SprüBü37), which was dumped by the thousands in the North and Baltic seas. Sources: 1. Lehrbuch der MIlitärchemie Band 1 Autorenkollektiv, Militärverlag der DDR, 1977; 2. Committee on the Challenges of Modern Society Study “Cross-Border Environmental Problems Emanating from Defence-Related Installations and Activities”, Volume 2: Chemical Contamination; Phase I: 1993-1995. Best regards, [[User:Lost Boy|Lost Boy]] ([[User talk:Lost Boy|talk]]) 04:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I know this isn't really the place for me to say this... but how much of a jerk do you have to be to dump a bunch of chemical warfare agent in the freaking ocean. JFC humans disgust me [[User:Jogandsp|Science Is My Life]] ([[User talk:Jogandsp|talk]]) 01:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

== Probable use by Syria against school recently ==

The recent attack against the children in the school seems to be Mustard Gas.
Anyone want to follow up with the research and addition ?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.110.121.208|99.110.121.208]] ([[User talk:99.110.121.208|talk]]) 17:42, 30 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Use by the United Kingdom against the Red Army in 1919 ==

The list of uses since WWI includes a use by United Kingdom against the Red Army in 1919; the cited link is dead. Why was the UK fighting the Red Army in 1919? [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] ([[User talk:Marnanel|talk]]) 02:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
:Oversimplified, the Imperial Britain as well as the other Entente Powers and their allies were hostile towards the Bolsheviki and their Revolution, for a number of reasons, among others: the Powers being inherently antirevolutionary, the Royals being Tzars family, the Bolsheviki signing a separate peace with the German Empire in Brest-Litovsk, March 1918, providing the German Army with substantial reserves for the Spring Offensive 1918 on the Western Front etc. p.p..  See the article [[Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War]] for the start.  Cheers,--[[Special:Contributions/46.223.137.198|46.223.137.198]] ([[User talk:46.223.137.198|talk]]) 04:39, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:9|one external link|9 external links}} on [[Sulfur mustard]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=711392598 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060527013022/http://www.fema.gov:80/government/grant/csepp1.shtm to http://www.fema.gov/government/grant/csepp1.shtm
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130907155755/http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/world/2007/12/30/26543/India-to-destroy-chemical-weapons-stockpile-by-2009 to http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/world/2007/12/30/26543/India-to-destroy-chemical-weapons-stockpile-by-2009
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20081205033022/http://lithgow.yourguide.com.au:80/news/local/news/general/bases-phantom-war-reveals-its-secrets/1237570.aspx to http://lithgow.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/bases-phantom-war-reveals-its-secrets/1237570.aspx
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100609132933/http://www.boston.com:80/news/local/breaking_news/2010/06/signs_of_bliste.html to http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/06/signs_of_bliste.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110430224324/http://www.ucdper.com/counteract/biblio to http://www.ucdper.com/counteract/biblio
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120105155850/http://www.mod.uk:80/NR/rdonlyres/77CEDBCA-813A-4A6C-8E59-16B9E260E27A/0/ic_munitions_seabed_rep.pdf to http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/77CEDBCA-813A-4A6C-8E59-16B9E260E27A/0/ic_munitions_seabed_rep.pdf

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== External links modified ==

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I have just modified {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Sulfur mustard]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=714887915 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
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== Delayed reaction ==

Can we get a little clarity on how the stuff was actually used in combat? For starters I don't understand how an agent that takes up to 24 hours to show effect is useful as anything other than a tool of attrition. I mean, do you bombard the sector you want to attack with mustard gas, and then wait 24 hours until the troops start start showing up with burns and blisters, and then attack them? I thought gas was mostly useful as an agent of breaking up defense and causing casualties immediately prior to attacking them. [[User:AnnaGoFast|AnnaGoFast]] ([[User talk:AnnaGoFast|talk]]) 10:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

:I realize I'm replying to a year-old question, but: "immediately" is relative. Offensives in the the Great War would sometimes be preceded by *days* of shelling, with literally millions of shells fired. [[Special:Contributions/204.194.77.3|204.194.77.3]] ([[User talk:204.194.77.3|talk]]) 18:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

::An excellent question, with an equally excellent response. It makes one wonder the usefulness of such an agent in a war of attrition (why it was used at all). The force employing the mustard agent would have to be protected in order to exploit the effectiveness, as the standard issue clothing won't protect either side. Anything that it comes into contact with becomes contaminated, just as anyone entering the area days to weeks after it's use; gas masks alone just won't do. It simply becomes an indiscriminate weapon of area denial to everyone.<BR>
::[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 23:07, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

== Requested move 6 November 2019 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top (modified) -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
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<span id="reqmovetag"></span>{{check talk}}
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|text = '''It was proposed in this section that [[:Sulfur mustard]] be [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|renamed and moved]]&#32;to {{no redirect|Mustard gas}}.''' 
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'''[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Three possible outcomes|Moved.]]''' See strong, policy-based support below and regrettably, opposition rationales do not appear to be based on any policy nor guideline. [[Wikt:kudos|Kudos]] to editors for your input, and [[Template:Clickable button/Publish buttons|Happy&nbsp;Publishing]]''!'' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|nac]]&nbsp;by&nbsp;[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|page&nbsp;mover]])</small><!-- This is User template [[User:Paine Ellsworth/RMpmc]]. --> '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.&nbsp;I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]''''',&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>11:20, 11 November 2019 (UTC)</small>
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<div class="floatleft">''Links:'' [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:Sulfur mustard}}}} current log] • [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:Mustard gas}}}} target log]</div>
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[[:Sulfur mustard]] → {{no redirect|Mustard gas}} – The article currently starts with {{tq|'''Sulfur mustard''', erroneously known as '''mustard gas'''...}}.  Somewhat ironically, this statement is actually erroneous.  It's true that mustard gas is technically not a gas, so "shouldn't" be called a gas, but it nonetheless ''is'' most commonly called "mustard gas".  WP is an encyclopedia, and should not -- indeed ''cannot'' -- dictate what people must do with their own language.  It would be like renaming our article on the [[Holy Roman Empire]] something like "Schismatic German Confederacy" because it technically wasn't holy, wasn't Roman, and wasn't an empire.  Even though true, none of that matters; we name the article based on what people call it, period.

Per WP policy at [[WP:COMMONNAME]], this article should be once again named [[Mustard gas]].  Unless reasoned opposition is stated here for not following WP policy on this, I'll soon initiate the move back to its original name.  

Once the move is complete, I'll reword the article opening to note that it's technically not a gas, and that scholarly sources often call it "sulfur mustard" instead, and have the rest of the article use the common name, per WP policy.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  00:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

:{{Disagree}}<BR />
:We can call the Earth "flat", but that doesn't make it true no matter how common or popular. Accuracy is valued here, thus I disagree with the suggestions you have stated. As stated within the article, one of the key problems regarding the use of sulfur mustard is that unlike a gas, it doesn't disperse, but remains active in the field for days to weeks. The common chemical name ''is'' '''sulfur mustard''', and that is the way it should remain until proven otherwise.<BR />
:Please do not change [[Sulfur mustard]] to ''gas'' without a consensus.<BR />
:[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 05:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

::WP ''does not care'' about [[WP:TRUTH]].  In fact, anything based on assertions of "truth" should be disregarded.  WP also does not care about "accuracy" when it's just another name for "truth".  WP is an encyclopedia, a reflection and collection of common knowledge, and thus can never even attempt to be a champion for changing that knowledge.  
::I tend to agree that the term "sulfur mustard" is more "accurate", but any and all editors' opinions on what the accurate or true name of something is means ''absolutely nothing''.  WP cares about ''sources'', only, "true" or not.  The great majority of sources -- dictionaries, histories, articles, both historical and contemporary -- call this subject "mustard gas".  Only a much smaller number of technical/chemical publications call it otherwise.  Per [[WP:DUE]], we can -- and indeed should -- mention this in the lede, but that's as far WP policy allows us to use minority terminology.  There is simply no benefit, and some harm, in using a name readers will find obscure or misleading.  And, again, it's against WP policy.
::I will follow consensus, but reasons based on personal assertions of what "is" true or accurate hold no weight in this.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  00:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

*{{Agree}} We call those rigid rectangles "[[Simple Men|floppy disks]]", we call the Elizabeth Tower "[[Big Ben]]". We call Sulfur mustard "mustard gas". It's well-established Wikipedia policy that we call articles by the [[WP:COMMONNAME|common name]], not by the technically accurate name (which is then immediately introduced). [[User:Captainllama|Captainllama]] ([[User talk:Captainllama|talk]]) 03:32, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

{{Question}}
Are you then proposing to <nowiki>{{merge}}</nowiki> '''''all''''' of the "mustard gas" articles into one article, such as [[Nitrogen mustard]]? It's a mustard "gas" even though it isn't a gas at all, just like [[sulfur mustard]]. If you move the ''sulfur mustard'' article, then you'll have to propose the article merge also.<BR />
[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 05:27, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
:Um, of course not.  This is a simple rename; no merge involved.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  01:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

::So, by your account [[sulfur mustard]] should be called "mustard gas" even though it's not a gas, but [[nitrogen mustard]] should be called "nitrogen mustard" even though it one of the mustard gasses. Should we also rename the [[Pyrite]] article "fool's gold" even though it's not really gold? Where will it end if we keep using inaccurate "common" names instead of the chemical names? Why not just stick to accurate chemical names?<BR />
::[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 01:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

:::None of this is by "my account".  It's all about what sources say, only.  And they say "mustard gas".  Bringing up other articles is feeble "whataboutism", akin to [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]], but even so, the [[Pyrite]] article is named correctly by COMMONNAME, as must all articles be named, including this one.  Personal claims of "innacurate" are dismissed by definition in WP policy.  
:::This isn't complicated.  We're just here to undo the original rename of this article to "Sulfur mustard" done without consent and against policy.  That's it.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  00:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - I feel it is fine as it is. [[Mustard gas]] already redirects to the article, so it won't miss any searches. [[Fools gold]] is a prime example (it redirects to [[Pyrite]] as {{u|Christopher, Sheridan, OR}} points out — <span style="text-shadow:red 0em 0em 0.8em">[[user:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b>]]</span> <sub>[[User talk:IVORK|<b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b>]]</sub> 02:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
::The fact of the name of our article on [[Pyrite]] supports this move.  "Pyrite" is the name used in the majority of articles and sources on the subject, thus it follows COMMMONNAME, as all WP articles should.  That the article is not called "Fools gold" has nothing to do with it being less correct or some other variation on the TRUTH false argument, just that its a much less common name by sources.  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup>  02:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

*'''Obvious support''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. And it is categorically and absolutely the common name. I'm really not sure why an exception to this basic Wikipedia naming convention is being made for this article. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:00, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

::As stated above, if one mustard agent gets renamed to "mustard gas", then under the same argument '''[[nitrogen mustard]] must be merged''' into the same article because "mustard gas" is the common name for ''both'' chemicals. '''''All''''' mustard agent articles would be merged.<BR />
::"Common" does not mean 'correct', so why describe mustard agents as gasses? Can we still call it a "gas" if thickeners can be added? Why not just stick to the accurate chemical names? Practice something incorrectly, and we become proficient at doing things incorrectly.<BR />
::[[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]] ([[User talk:DeNoel|talk]]) 19:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
:::{{comment}} You made your point [[User:DeNoel|Christopher, Sheridan, OR]], please let the discussion develop and stop repeating yourself every time someone has a different view. [[User:Captainllama|Captainllama]] ([[User talk:Captainllama|talk]]) 01:23, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
:::{{ping|DeNoel}} No, this is not true; since sulphur mustard is by far the commonest form of mustard gas only that one needs renaming. We merely need to add a hatnote to point to the others. ""Common" does not mean 'correct'"?  No, it means [[WP:COMMONNAME|common]]! See [[WP:OFFICIALNAME]]. I'm sensing that you're not terribly au fait with Wikipedia naming conventions here. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 10:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''<!-- Template:RM bottom --></div>

== Sourcing second paragraph of "Mechanism of cellular toxicity" ==

I encountered the "citation needed" mark here through Citation Hunt. I've managed to find [https://goldbook.iupac.org/terms/view/M04071 this entry in the IUPAC gold book] that defines "mustard", but I don't have the wherewithal to determine whether that definition matches the one in the article. The other information seems quite general and may need multiple sources. —[[User:Ifandonlyif0|Ifandonlyif0]] ([[User talk:Ifandonlyif0|talk]]) 18:03, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

== etymology ==

i found this source for the etymology of the term :
https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/education/resources/highschool/chemmatters/gc-mustard-gas-personal-safety-and-natl-security.pdf

 "It is called mustard gas because impure forms of the gas have an odor that resembles that of mustard. The name is somewhat misleading because at room temperature the substance is actually a liquid, not a gas."  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Olshevsky|Olshevsky]] ([[User talk:Olshevsky#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Olshevsky|contribs]]) 15:50, 11 September 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Kinetic explanation for cyclization ==

I think this page would significantly benefit from explaining why the cyclization product is the active alkylating agent. Basic organic chemistry principles suggest that the non-cyclized version should be plenty effective as an alkylating on its own. This raises the question "why isn't it the active alkylating agent?" Although I have not had the chance to find primary sources on this specific case, the answer can once again be found in basic ochem principles. Intramolecular reactions like this (which aren't sterically hindered) are essentially always faster than their intermolecular counterparts. This is because molecules are constantly vibrating and wiggling. It is much more kinetically favorable for one part of a molecules to bump into another part of the same molecule than for two individual molecules to bump into each other just right. This is because the distances are much shorter and there are fewer barriers (like solvent molecules) in the way. I don't have the time to make this change to the article, but I highly recommend someone make it. It's an important fundamental concept to understand if you want to understand the reactivity of these complexes. I'm sure there's even a name for it if someone wants to find out what that is. [[User:Jogandsp|Science Is My Life]] ([[User talk:Jogandsp|talk]]) 01:01, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

== Decontamination reaction with Chloramine-T ==

Does anyone know what are the exact products when normal mustard gas reacts with [[chloramine-T]]? [[User:DASL51984|DASL51984]] <sup>([[User talk:DASL51984|Speak to me!]])</sup> 11:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

==Split proposal==
I think that most editors would agree that this article is very complicated, consisting of some advanced chemistry (including a "chembox"), lots on the chemical weapon theme and discussions of wounds, hefty discussion of the biology (mustards have non-weapons applications, BTW), and then diverse derivative of the parent bis(2-chloroethyl)sulfide and ways that these things are delivered on the battlefield.  

My idea is not going to make a complex topic easy to read, but I think that some splitting would help.

'''Proposal: to create an article on the main chemical [[Bis(2-chloroethyl)sulfide]].'''  This smallish article would have the "chembox", describe how this stuff is made, and its basic [[organic chemistry]].  It could also list analogues of bis(2-chloroethyl)sulfide.  I just dont think that most readers of mustard gas are keen to dig into thorny organic chemistry.--[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]] ([[User talk:Smokefoot|talk]]) 22:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

:'''Support''' - readers would definitely benefit by having the nitty gritty information of the chemistry and its use in science, warfare, etc separated. i really oughta emphasize, though, that there certainly should be an article that has the thorny organic chemistry of mustard gas. [[User:Ayyydoc|Ayyydoc]] ([[User talk:Ayyydoc|talk]]) 18:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
:{{done}} --[[User:Smokefoot|Smokefoot]] ([[User talk:Smokefoot|talk]]) 03:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I do not think it should be changed; a chembox is totally vital for such an article it should neither be changed nor split. In my opinion every substance should have a chembox. [[User:Eggbeeters|Eggbeeters]] ([[User talk:Eggbeeters|talk]]) 20:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

== Is this for real? Blistering effects can be neutralized by bleach? ==

Is this for real? It says "Mustard gases' blistering effects can be '''neutralized''' by '''oxidation''' or '''chlorination''', using '''household bleach'''…." (Bolds added.) That whole thing seems weird. (And I don't have access to any particular journal to confirm.) [[User:Misty MH|Misty MH]] ([[User talk:Misty MH|talk]]) 18:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC) [[User:Misty MH|Misty MH]] [[User:Misty MH|Misty MH]] ([[User talk:Misty MH|talk]]) 18:09, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

== First use of poison gas in World War I ==

Poison gas was used for the first time in World War 1, by the British on Sep 25 1915, during the Battle of Loos, a few months before the German attack at Ypres.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-i/british-poison-gas-battle-of-loos.html