View source for Talk:Musical composition

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==See also==
See discussion at [[Category talk:Musical compositions]].

==John Cage complaint==
-Anybody else find that statement about Cage generally not being considered a composer completely ridiculous? The pursuit of 'true beauty via music'?? This seems like a weak definition of the goal of composing. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:206.223.174.120|206.223.174.120]] ([[User talk:206.223.174.120#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.223.174.120|contribs]]) 14:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)</small>

:Yes it is ridiculous. I'm definitely not a fan of Cage's music, but I still think this article is too unnecessarily hard on his techniques. In particular, the whole article seems to be slanted to more Western "traditional" values, such as the mentioned "craft of musical composition" that Cage is purported not to follow. What exactly is this craft? Does it not include experimental and aleatoric music? I'm removing those statements about Cage that follow unstable slants. I understand if some believe that stuff about Cage, but c'mon folks, this doesn't need to be in an encyclopedia. (And note that just because only a "few" of his works contain this "craft of musical composition" doesn't mean Cage is not a composer...) [[User:Horncomposer|Horncomposer]] 19:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

::It has been removed. Good work. [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I didn't get a chance to read the original comments regarding John Cage, but the fact remains that the word composition means to "sit with" or to put together. In several of his works, the musical content is not defined. A piece that can theoretically be performed as Beethoven's 5th Symphony, or a Lutaslowski piece, or just scraping sounds, can not be said to be 'composed'. While Cage's point that all music differs from one performance to another is certainly true, the amount of deviation must be taken into account. This has nothing to do with experimental, or even introducing aleatorical elements into a work. You can throw dice to determine the notes, but if every performance reqires the procedure to be redone, there never was a composition. And why not include this discussion in an encyclopedia? Where else will the general public get exposed to the fundamental concepts of contemporary music? Part of the reason audiences are estranged is due to the the complexity, and diverse methods of generating music. Clarifying the "composers" intentions will allow the public to come to a better understanding and appreciation of contemporary music. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Yamex5|Yamex5]] ([[User talk:Yamex5#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Yamex5|contribs]]) 05:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)</small>

:::: I'm aware this sounds to many as [[heresy]], but who cares about just ''"contemporary music"'', anyway? There are not enough chances in a lifetime to enjoy ''real'' music, that is, the whole of [[Classical music]]. --[[User:SciCorrector|SciCorrector]] ([[User talk:SciCorrector|talk]]) 22:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

::::: John Cage's early works were "composed" in the traditional sense, so there's that...
:::::Also, speaking to SciCorrector's point: I bet you also don't like all that talking, color and other newfangled things in your movies either. [[User:Nenndul|Nenndul]] ([[User talk:Nenndul|talk]]) 20:31, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

==modes in music of the Middle East==
The article states that "music of the Middle East employs compositions that are rigidly based on a specific mode (such as the dorian, phrygian, mixolydian, and locrian scales)". The statement is rather confusing and should have a citation. While much Levantine music is modal, much is not. Further, as understood and used today the modes mentioned are derived from the Western European major scale (aka the Ionian mode) and to my knowledge are not known as such to the Middle Eastern music cultures.

Generally, this article is not very good. The topic is broad and needs a specialist's attention.
[[Special:Contributions/98.30.32.237|98.30.32.237]] ([[User talk:98.30.32.237|talk]]) 11:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Compositional techniques ==
[[Musical composition|This page]] is redirected from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Compositional_technique&redirect=no compositional techniques], but has just a small section about it. Maybe we can make a new article for [[Musical composition#Composing music|Compositional tecniques]] since it is a substantially broad subject, or at least expand the existing section.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:E-sub-n|E-sub-n]] ([[User talk:E-sub-n|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/E-sub-n|contribs]]) 00:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== New article title ==
For the sake of consistency, we should name this article [[Composition (music)]], because we already have [[Composition (visual arts)]], and [[Composition (language)]], and because this is the commonly adopted style in Wikipedia (even in articles about music). For instance,

* [[Scale (music)]]
* [[Scale (string instruments)]]
* [[Scale (album)]]
* [[Scale (descriptive set theory)]]
* [[Scale (ratio)]]
* [[Scale (social sciences)]]
* [[Scale (spatial)]]

* [[Mode (music)]]
* [[Mode (statistics)]]
* [[Mode (literature)]]

* [[Interval (music)]]
* [[Interval (mathematics)]]
* [[Interval (time)]]  

* [[Degree (music)]]
* [[Degree (freemasonry)]]
* [[Degree (angle)]]
* [[Degree (temperature)]]
* [[Degree (deodorant)]]

* [[Transposition (music)]]
* [[Transposition (mathematics)]]
* [[Transposition (logic)]]
* [[Transposition (law)]]
* [[Transposition (chess)]]
* [[Transposition (telecommunications)]]
As you probably know, if we change the title, the current title [[Musical composition]] will be turned into a page which will redirect here, and [[WP:Double redirect|double redirects]] will be fixed by whoever does the move, or automatically by BOTs. 

[[User:Paolo.dL|Paolo.dL]] ([[User talk:Paolo.dL|talk]]) 12:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

:Aside from the work involved, why not change the other article titles? [[User:Hyacinth|Hyacinth]] ([[User talk:Hyacinth|talk]]) 21:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

== Copyright info expanded ==
I've added several paragraphs of introductory material to the section on copyright and legal concerns. I tried to keep the focus on copyright as it applies to compositions in particular.  I also chose my words carefully in an effort to be precise and accurate. For example, I tried to make it clear that copyright does not grant, as was previously implied, total control over a composition...rather, it only grants a certain, limited set of rights, which composers often assign to publishers. This will become more important if the section is expanded to cover topics like [[fair use]] and ''[[de minimis]]'', especially in regard to [[musical quotation]] and [[sampling (music)|sampling]].

The new content is all uncited, but all of it should be fairly easy to verify in the many how-to guides out there for aspiring musicians; I would start with ''This Business of Music''. Anyway, if you see anything blatantly wrong, please just fix it. Thanks. —[[User:Mjb|mjb]] ([[User talk:Mjb|talk]]) 08:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

== Requested move 18 April 2020 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved''' --   [[User:JHunterJ|JHunterJ]] ([[User talk:JHunterJ|talk]]) 15:57, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
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* [[:Musical composition]] → {{no redirect|Composition}}
* [[:Composition]] → {{no redirect|Composition (disambiguation)}}
– Among the different types of compositions mentioned at the disambiguation page it seems to me that musical compositions can claim [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] status. See also above: for consistency with articles on types of non-musical compositions the current article should be renamed to [[Composition (music)]], which only highlights that the current article title, [[Musical composition]], is an anomaly: instead of renaming to the even more awkward "[[Composition (music)]]" I propose to exploit the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] guidance which seems created for cases like this. For clarity, I initiate this after the conclusion of a recent CfD, where it was suggested multiple times that this naming discussion would best take place one way or another. -- [[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 11:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
====Survey====
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Article titles|Wikipedia's policy on article titles]].''

* '''Support'''. Clearly the primary topic for me. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 12:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC) (added later:) ... as their authors, [[Composer]], are the primary topic, explained below in more detail. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 08:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. This seems like a no-brainer.—[[User:Jerome Kohl|Jerome Kohl]] ([[User talk:Jerome Kohl|talk]]) 00:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I'm not convinced that this is the primary topic. "Composition" is a very broad and vague term that has many uses and meanings, and "Musical composition" seems like a very good natural disambiguation to me. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 18:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
*: Would you then suggest a move from [[Composer]] to [[Musical composer]] (which would lead to an ambiguous thing, a composer of musicals, or a composer of musical compositions)? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 19:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
*::Would you support "Composition (music)", the alternative suggested above by Francis, if somewhat unenthusiastically? It at least has the advantage of consistent format with other disambiguation titles.—[[User:Jerome Kohl|Jerome Kohl]] ([[User talk:Jerome Kohl|talk]]) 22:24, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
*::: In case you speak to me, no. I believe that Composition should be no disambiguation, but describe musical compositions, as the primary topic<s>, as [[Composer]] describes the authors of them as the primary topic, for consistency. If, however, we don't find Composition the primary topic, then Composer should also not be the primary topic, for the same consistency. I never link to Composer and  Composition, by the way, because these terms (I think) are just as well known as New York City. I do link to [[string quartet]], [[oratorio]] and such.</s> --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 08:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
*:::: Re. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMusical_composition&type=revision&diff=952043938&oldid=951971700 if Composer is primary, Composition should also be primary] – there's no such rule, and it is nonsense. [[WP:AT]] contains several examples of the singular and plural form of the same word not going to the same place ([[glass]] vs. [[glasses]] comes to mind), so having the same root is in no way indicative for two words to be treated similarly. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 08:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
:::::: <s>Sorry, I don't get it. I'm not talking about roots. [[Composer]] tells us: "A composer (Latin compōnō; literally "one who puts together") is a musician who is an author of music in any form ..." - which tells me that what they write - not anything "put together" but "music in any form" - has no need to be specifically named "musical compositions", - simply "compositions" should suffice. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 09:31, 20 April 2020 (UTC)</s>
::::::: The reasoning is bogus: Wikipedia articles are officially unreliable in these matters. Someone wise at some time limited themselves to two comments in certain discussion threads: since neither you nor I have English as our mother tongue this may be a good idea here – I'd be happy to leave language-specific sensibilities of whether or not "composition" would usually be understood as something musical to a broader range of editors, most of them hopefully with sensibilities instructed by having used English all of their life, without feeling the need to endlessly discuss with whoever happens to disagree. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 09:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
::::::::The word "composition" is highly ambiguous as a native speaker. For most of us, we might first think of a composition notebook, which is just a bunch of paper bound together. We talk about the composition of things as a way of talking about what they are made of. ("The composition of this rock is …") However, "composer" is not ambiguous at all. "Composer" can only be "a person who composes music". [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red</span>]] [[User talk:Red Slash|<b><span style="color:#460121;">Slash</span></b>]] 21:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::No, [[List of compositions by Franz Schubert]] lists around twice as many works by the composer as [[List of songs by Franz Schubert]]. Even I know that not all compositions by a composer are necessarily songs. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 08:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. As a pianist and photographer, I find [[Musical composition]] and [[Composition (visual arts)]] equally compelling. While "a composition" will refer almost exclusively to a musical composition, "composition" with no article could refer to anything. [https://tools.wmflabs.org/massviews/?platform=all-access&agent=user&source=wikilinks&range=latest-20&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&target=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition Pageviews] show [[Musical composition]] at 12K compared to [[Function composition]] at 11K (I'm also a mathematician but somehow that didn't cross my mind initially {{smiley}}) and [[Composition (visual arts)]] at 10K, so it does not clear the field in terms of usage. The reason why [[Composer]] is primary: A ''composer'' produces ''compositions''. None of the other major entries can be described as ''a composition'' or ''compositions''. A composer does not produce the abstract concept of composition. -- [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&hearts;</span>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&diams;</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<span style="color:black;">&clubs;</span>]] &spades; 16:46, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - this is a move toward more ambiguity. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 07:06, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''' - this title is nowhere near precise enough. However, the current title is not satisfactory either. This article is about '''songs'''. Songs. They have a name, and that name is "song". The idea of a separate article for musical compositions and songs is impossibly misguided. This article should merge with [[song]]. That said, the proposed title is especially bad because [[composition]] is a tremendously ambiguous title, and titles should be precise. [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red</span>]] [[User talk:Red Slash|<b><span style="color:#460121;">Slash</span></b>]] 21:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' – Where do you get the idea that this article is solely or even primarily about songs? It does mention them in passing, but also sets aside the writing of songs in a separate category: "Composers of primarily songs are usually called [[songwriters]]". As far as I can tell, this article is about all musical composition that does ''not'' specifically involve songwriting.—[[User:Jerome Kohl|Jerome Kohl]] ([[User talk:Jerome Kohl|talk]]) 22:34, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
***I'm not sure what you are talking about. This article is entirely about songs, generally those without words. [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red</span>]] [[User talk:Red Slash|<b><span style="color:#460121;">Slash</span></b>]] 02:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
**Classical compositions are not called songs; they are called pieces. -- [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&hearts;</span>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&diams;</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<span style="color:black;">&clubs;</span>]] &spades; 00:50, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
***You're being pedantic, and you know it. Literally every single human being I have ever met refers to set pieces of music as "songs", regardless of if there are words or not. [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red</span>]] [[User talk:Red Slash|<b><span style="color:#460121;">Slash</span></b>]] 02:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
****You might care to check the Wikipedia article [[Song]], where you will discover that the term refers solely to vocal compositions (and by no means to ''all'' vocal compositions). The human beings with whom you associate must be a very small subset of the species.—[[User:Jerome Kohl|Jerome Kohl]] ([[User talk:Jerome Kohl|talk]]) 02:31, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

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== Composition as [[recipe]] ==
Something that seems missing from the article is the intent giving rise to a composition, that it is to be communicated to a performer or performers for its reproduction.  As noted in the article, the medium of such communication might be oral (teaching the composition by singing it), instructions written in a spoken language, an algorithmic sequence in a computer computer program, or western or other form of musical notation.

An analogy might be a [[recipe]]. The instructions in for a dish to be eaten might be written or demonstrated, e.g. on TV or radio or by a friend or relative at your side, or communicated on a telephone call. But a recipe is not taking random items out of a pantry and mixing them together, because it lacks the intention of creating a reproducible instruction; even aside from any culinary value or lack thereof.

I come to this conclusion by considering the many thousands of jazz improvisations. For instance, the tenor saxophonist [[Ben Webster]] performed a solo on ''[[Cotton Tail]]'' without intending it to be reproduced, and he himself reproduced it with slight variations many times. Is it a composition?  I wouldn't think so, because of his intention.  Similarly for the improvisation that you hear in a performance venue that isn't intended for another to reproduce. The definition of a musical composition should be narrow enough to exclude such improvisations.

Even when improvisations are recorded and transcribed, as in the [[Charlie Parker Omnibook]], the intention of the creating musician is what makes a composition; the captured improvisation is a [[Transcription (music)|transcription]], not a composition. Quoting [[Eric Dolphy|Eric Dolphy's]] well-known maxim, which only '''seems''' contradicted in [[The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction|an age of mechanical reproduction]]: "When you hear music, after it's over, it's gone in the air. You can never capture it again."<ref>{{YouTube|id=8us5tOYARpI&t=328s|title="Miss Ann", Eric Dolphy / Last Date, 1964}}</ref> [[User:Larrykoen|Larry Koenigsberg]] ([[User talk:Larrykoen|talk]]) 19:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
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