View source for Talk:Meta-reference

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== The Examples ==
I am putting this here because I really do not want to be blamed for doing what needs to be done. I am gonna set off an limb and say that over 90% of the "examples" are crap tacked on to be tacked on.

In the Tales from the Crypt spin-off movie Bordello of Blood, one of the main characters says at one point "I feel like I'm in a bad episode of Tales from the Crypt." 

Is idiotic, they are [[ADVERTISING]] their [[FRANCHISE]] How hard is it to understand that, the actor didn't say "I AM in a episode of TFTC" he referenced it saying "It feels LIKE I am" If he said "It feels like I am in a horror film" you wouldn't jump on it being meta-reference... well probally would. This is about DELIBRATLY turning away from the stage and adressing the audiance / cameramen. I will accept Acknowledging the audiances existance, but not 'in this episode they may have done something that looked like this'.

You have to realize also that reference to past films is not Meta Reference. It is once again, advertisment. So in the sequal of Grimlins they held up Grimlins One, guess what, they are filming Grimlins 2 SO he was not aware of being an actor in a production.

Finally in the TV Show section it looks like you all forget that in TV Land time goes on. Just because the guy says something that happened in a previous episode does not mean that he watches the show. And in my example, I understand that you look at it like "ohh, it was in the show before. lets go spam meta-reference"

"Eric Cartman suggests a storyline feature 'Crab People'. This is immediately derided as a ludicrous and implausible idea for a television show. 'Crab People' were themselves featured in a previous South Park episode."

Some of the entries are rather, stupid. Implying that the show sucks and because they can do nothing and say nothing for the length of the show META-REFERENCE!!!!

"On SpongeBob SquarePants, certain characters (usually Squidward Tentacles) often mention things going on for 11 minutes, the usual length for a regular episode."

And some entries are clearly just commical remarks put in by the writer but not having the characters REALIZE they are fictional.

"Futurama features an episode in which, faced with the prospect of risking her and Fry's lives to save Bender, Leela exclaims, "It's not an easy decision. If only we had two or three minutes to think about it!" The show then breaks for commercials."

Personally allowing a TV Show section is the worst idea there is. EVERY show eventually has that little thing that writters toss in there. But if you are gonna put in an example based off of a TV show, the TV Show should have an example for every 5 episodes at least.

== What was before ==

"Meta-reference describes a situation in a form of media whereby fictional characters display an awareness that they are in a film, television show or book. Sometimes it may even just be a form of editing or film-making technique that comments on the programme/film/b--[[User:Wasabe3543|Wasabe3543]] 19:53, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)ook itself."

Does it need to involve fictional characters? What about instructional books that refer to themselves (eg, "In this book, you will learn how...") and so forth? And if that's not a meta-ref, what exactly is it?--[[User:Wasabe3543|Wasabe3543]] 19:53, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== Seinfeld ==

What about Seinfeld? Can someone add some of these? One particularly good example is the multi-episode sequence in which they write and shoot a TV pilot "about nothing," and George, over coffee, suggests that their conversation about salsa and seltzer "could be a show."

*Thanks for your suggestion. If you feel a change is needed, please go ahead and make it yourself!  Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the '''{{MediaWiki:edit}}''' link. You don't even need to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]], although there are several [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|reasons why you might want to]].  Wikipedia convention is to [[Wikipedia:be bold|be bold]] and not be afraid of making mistakes.  If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at [[Wikipedia:how to edit a page|''How to edit a page'']], or try out the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Sandbox]] to test your editing skills.  [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|New contributors are always welcome]]. [[User:Guinness2702|Guinness]] 12:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

*Personally, I don't think it's worth mentioning Seinfeld.  This isn't the place for a comprehensive list of places where meta-references could be listed.  Esp as if people list Seinfeld, then more & more Seinfeld ones will be added.  Ditto the Simpsons etc.  Personally I don't think the South Park one even need to be there.  Lots of examples I can think of (e.g. in [Waiting For Godot] the use of 'Critic' as an insult) but as such I believe there is already more than enough examples.  The reader will get the gist--[[User:TimothyJacobson|TimothyJacobson]] ([[User talk:TimothyJacobson|talk]]) 03:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

== Cinema examples; a paradox in this particular meta-reference ==

"''In his 1987 movie Spaceballs, the villains watch a video of the movie to find out where the heroes have gone, and become slightly confused when they end up briefly watching themselves watching themselves on video.''"
 
This represents a paradox in that, as long as they would watch the video, the fast forward would continue to show them watch the video no matter how fast it sped up, and they could never see the end for discoving their purpose of how to possibly get an edge on the 'good guys.' Secondly, the video fast forwards faster than the speed that they would actually end up watching the video for, so when they give up is actually ''past'' the point in time in which they would have fast-forwarded to beyond that scene of them watching themselves. Which seems impossible. I don't know if this could be concisely added to the article, but it is worth note if even just here in discussion. [[User:Nagelfar|Nagelfar]] 20:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

One thing... you are wrong (ha ha). I distinctly remember them saying "Oh you went too far". Besides the joke of having the film before was that they are getting it out before it is finished being filmed. Space Balls was an eipidomy of Meta-Reference. Yogurt had thousands of Space Balls merchendice and even suggested they might meet up in Space Balls 2: The Search for More Money.

== Merge with [[List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall]]?==

There's a fairly extensive discussion and list related to this topic at [[List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall]]. Maybe these two articles should be merged? [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 21:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

*That has now been done (but not by me)--[[User:TimothyJacobson|TimothyJacobson]] ([[User talk:TimothyJacobson|talk]]) 03:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

== Long Page ==

I noticed this page is almost entirely filled with examples. Are there too many? Should they be broken off into their own page? [[User:Dansiman|Dansiman]] 06:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== Slightly off-topic. ==

The article currently mentions that ''Banjo-Tooie'' features a number of references to ''Banjo-Kazooie''. I've never played either game, but I'm operating under the impression that it's actually quite common for sequels to directly refer to events that took place in previous games. This, of course, would be a continuity reference, not meta-reference. Of course, if they used phrases along the lines of "Hey, I remember you from the first game.", well then, yes, that would be a meta-reference. Can someone confirm whether ''Tooie'' talks about things that happened in the first game, or about ''Banjo-Kazooie'' actually ''being'' a game? [[User:Master Deusoma|Master Deusoma]] 01:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

== Moliere ==

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there is some meta-reference in [[The Miser]] , when Harpagon goes insane?  On The Miser's page, it mentions this but has no specific details. If anyone with a better knowledge of the play could provide details, it'd be much appreciated. [[User:Malrase|Malrase]] 20:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

== Voice-overs and first person narration ==

When there's a character voice-over (or in the case of novels a first person narration) and it refers to "you", would that be considered a meta-reference or breaking the fourth wall? An example from the Animorphs novels: "My name is Jake. I can't tell you my last name or where I live or the Controllers will get me". <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/218.215.140.2|218.215.140.2]] ([[User talk:218.215.140.2|talk]]) 01:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:I'd just call that a narration. &mdash; <span style="text-decoration: none;">[[User:RevRagnarok|<span style="color:#696969;">RevRagnarok</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:RevRagnarok |Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RevRagnarok|Contrib]]</sup></span> 01:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

== Why are we validating this pretentious misnomer? ==

this term "meta-reference" is a misnomer. it's used to specifically refer to something in a work of fiction/media, but the term itself in no way conveys this meaning. has anyone heard this term used before the last couple of years? why is the term being acknowledged with an article, and without citing any sources? [[User:58.163.133.183|58.163.133.183]] 14:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Liam

== Earliest in cinema? ==

While not provably the "earliest," [[Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle]] certainly "broke the fourth wall" in films long before the Marx Brothers did.  One gag he used in several films in several variations was a scene where Fatty would have to change clothes onscreen.  As he was doing so, he would motion to the cameraman to tilt the camera up so he was not seen below the waist.  Fatty used this gag or variations thereof in 1915 (and possibly earlier) during his tenure at [[Keystone_Studios|Keystone]].  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.252.246.14|76.252.246.14]] ([[User talk:76.252.246.14|talk]]) 22:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Incorrect words ==

Asseveral is not a word.  it needs to be changed or removed from the article.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.120.225.10|68.120.225.10]] ([[User talk:68.120.225.10|talk]]) 23:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

*Done (but again not by me)--[[User:TimothyJacobson|TimothyJacobson]] ([[User talk:TimothyJacobson|talk]]) 03:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

== Homestar Runner ==

* The web series Homestar Runner makes use of this technique to comedic effect frequently, as seen "No hands on deck," when Homestar claims "I better get to work if I'm going to build a deck in this cartoon." Another instance from the Homestar Runner universe is in Teen Girl Squad episode 11, in which Cheerleader examines the script while asking "Does 'Uggs' have one 'g' or two?" I'm unsure where these references would be placed, since it is a web series and not really film or television. [[User:TeebOliver|TeebOliver]] ([[User talk:TeebOliver|talk]]) 21:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)TeebOliver

== so tempted to add.... ==

I'd need to watch back more episodes of the TV show proper to see if this was an ongoing thing carried over from the original series, but as an example of a stage show, the various incarnations of "Bottom Live" has such a heavy reliance on humorous and overt meta-reference (including covering for prop mishaps or script goofs) that it almost becomes part of the plot, with the story proper counting for 50% or less of the actual show time, and there being points where it's not entirely clear whether particular mistakes and equipment malfunctions are intentional or genuine.

(yay for paragraph-filling run-on sentences!)

I know it's "just" a pretty crude, cheap comedy show with an overabundance of knob gags and other childish smut, but I randomly saw a televised filming of one of its installments last night and, as well as being absolutely cracked up even whilst acknowledging it's utter low-brow nature, I couldn't help realising the sparks of comic genius that went into leveraging this device and its general destruction of the 4th wall to make an otherwise weak premise into something hilarous. [[Special:Contributions/77.102.101.220|77.102.101.220]] ([[User talk:77.102.101.220|talk]]) 16:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
=="This article does not cite any references or sources."==
Would adding references be detrimental to the article? I think the point is debatable.[[Special:Contributions/93.96.148.42|93.96.148.42]] ([[User talk:93.96.148.42|talk]]) 04:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

== Vertov ==

[[Dziga Vertov]]

He was probably the first film maker that's to be called 'meta'.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.190.253.150|193.190.253.150]] ([[User talk:193.190.253.150|talk]]) 16:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Additional quotes from books? ==

“Some novels with first person narration contain instances of metareference when the narrator addresses the reader directly. Examples include Charlotte Brontë's Jane Eyre, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, and Philip Reeve's Larklight.”

I request adding quotes from mentioned places aside the pacing numeration, because it'll make the article more informative and interesting. [[User:DaemonDice|DaemonDice]] ([[User talk:DaemonDice|talk]]) 21:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DaemonDice (Gremlin)|DaemonDice (Gremlin)]] ([[User talk:DaemonDice (Gremlin)|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DaemonDice (Gremlin)|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== this section intentionally irrelevant ==

I removed
{{cquote|An [[intentionally blank page]] makes a meta-reference to itself when it states, "This page is intentionally left blank". This would also be a pseudo-reference, since the page is not in fact blank, but contains a statement to the effect that it is.}}
because, though seemingly paradoxical, it has nothing to do with fiction or the fourth wall. —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 01:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

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