View source for Talk:Medusa

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==Untitled==
A huge stone block of the head of Medusa is turned upside down in the water works reservoir building in Istanbul now serving as one of the foundation piers for one of the rear facing columns. The builders decided they could use the pagan stone but only if they turned the stone upside down (her head down). This was only discovered in recent years after the water table had receded. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2603:8080:f700:ac16:a164:99d0:175f:9018|2603:8080:f700:ac16:a164:99d0:175f:9018]] ([[User talk:2603:8080:f700:ac16:a164:99d0:175f:9018#top|talk]]) 19:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)</small>

== Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2022 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Medusa|answered=yes}}
You have written that Posideon/Neptune had sec with Medusa. The real truth is written in Greek methology novels. He raped Medusa. She was then victimized again by Athena who blamed her for the rape. Please change this and don’t pretty up the story. [[Special:Contributions/2001:48F8:7028:127:CCA8:D7D0:7403:E23E|2001:48F8:7028:127:CCA8:D7D0:7403:E23E]] ([[User talk:2001:48F8:7028:127:CCA8:D7D0:7403:E23E|talk]]) 06:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa#cite_note-7. Doesn't look like [[WP:RS|the sources]] are agreed on this [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 11:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
::In the primary source cited for the section, the act is translated as "ravished". "Mated" implies consent. "Ravished" does not. [[Special:Contributions/24.25.132.142|24.25.132.142]] ([[User talk:24.25.132.142|talk]]) 16:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
:thank someone who also knows the real story [[Special:Contributions/2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017|2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017]] ([[User talk:2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017|talk]]) 23:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
:It's 2025 and this still hasn't been amended. Also putting in the main information that he was her consort is just revolting. Really shows the progress we have made in the past couple millenias, doesn't it. [[User:Inkdrinkess|Inkdrinkess]] ([[User talk:Inkdrinkess|talk]]) 11:38, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

== Edit Request ==

In the "Psychoanalysis" section, it describes that there are no recorded instances of Medusa turning a woman to stone. However, in multiple accounts, Perseus is described as showing Ariadne the head of Medusa, thus turning her to stone. I'm not suggesting that that's definitive, but I think at least making it clear that there's ambiguity there would be a good change. [[Special:Contributions/136.144.15.250|136.144.15.250]] ([[User talk:136.144.15.250|talk]]) 02:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

== Eyes? ==

<blockquote>Those who gazed into her eyes would turn to stone.</blockquote> Why specifically '''eyes'''? Are any proofs for that? There are other versions:
* Ukrainian Wikipedia provides two distinct versions: (1) those Medusa '''herself''' looked at [i.e. irrespectively to where the other person looks] and (2) those who saw Medusa [not necessarily the Medusa's eyes]. But the sources stated in Ukrainian Wikipedia are just direct references to Ancient Greek works ("Homer. Iliad XVIII.36 et seq.;  Apollodorus I.2.7" for #1 and "Apollodorus II.4.2" for #2), so I can't check them ('cause I can't read Ancient Greek myths untranslated).
* Greek Wikipedia (via Google Translate) says about those who looked at Medusa's '''face'''. But I see no sources there for that claim at all.
* [https://books.google.com/books?id=umsythkvbmMC&pg=PA30&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false Philip Freeman. Oh My Gods: A Modern Retelling of Greek and Roman Myths (англ.). — 2013. — P. 30. — ISBN 9781451609981] says about those who looked at Medusa's '''hair''' (i.e. the snakes).
I don't know which is correct, but, anyway, IMHO we should provide all (verifiable) versions of Ancient Greek myth instead of (or at least in addition to) modern day reinterpretations. [[User:Sasha1024|Sasha1024]] ([[User talk:Sasha1024|talk]]) 05:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Sasha1024|Sasha1024]] Medusa is  a Greek legend and if you stare at her you will turn into stone [[Special:Contributions/106.216.252.187|106.216.252.187]] ([[User talk:106.216.252.187|talk]]) 03:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

:: {{U|106.216.252.187}}, Medusa is a Greek legend – no doubt. But the article stated that one needs to looks specifically into her eyes (to be turned into stone) – and this statement isn't currently supported by any references. Meanwhile, various sources give different opinion on what exactly is to be done to be turned into stone by Medusa. [[User:Sasha1024|Sasha1024]] ([[User talk:Sasha1024|talk]]) 15:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|Sasha1024}} I'm unable to find a source which states that to be turned to stone it was necessary to look into her eyes specifically. Most sources simply say it happened to anyone who looked at her: for example, see ''Brill's New Pauly'', s.v. Gorgo ("The Gorgos' terrifying shape (snake hair, fangs) transforms into stone whoever looks at them ...") and the ''OCD'', s.v. Gorgo/Medusa ("... through their horrific appearance these Gorgons turned to stone anyone who looked at them"). Tripp, [https://archive.org/details/crowellshandbook00trip/page/364/mode/2up?view=theater s.v. Medusa] states that it was necessary to look at her head specifically, and this would certainly align with the fact that Perseus is described as later petrifying others with the severed head. On the other hand, according to Grimal, [https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofclas0000grim/page/174/mode/2up?view=theater s.v. Gorgons], "their gaze was so penetrating that anyone who encountered it was turned to stone", so sources don't appear to be entirely consistent on the matter. Whatever the case, we shouldn't be stating that it was necessary to look at her eyes specifically. I've altered the sentence in the lead, following ''Brill's New Pauly''. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 07:56, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks. [[User:Sasha1024|Sasha1024]] ([[User talk:Sasha1024|talk]]) 16:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

== Etymology  ==

Why no etymology section? [[Special:Contributions/73.183.77.240|73.183.77.240]] ([[User talk:73.183.77.240|talk]]) 04:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

: I was wondering if it's related to jellyfish. [[User:Benjaminikuta|Benjamin]] ([[User talk:Benjaminikuta|talk]]) 20:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

== Wrong info  ==

medusa was not a monster she was a priestess of athena but she got raped in athenas temple by poseidon and athena blamed medusa for being to beautiful so athena cursed her. Medusa still proformed rituals for athena  and athena felt bad. medusa got killed by perseus and he gave the head to athena and athena put it on her shield to honour her. [[Special:Contributions/2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017|2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017]] ([[User talk:2001:1C03:5731:3000:A4A9:68FB:819A:F017|talk]]) 23:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

: As several users have pointed out in the past, the current wording used ("Neptune had sex with her") is problematic, since most people reject treating rape as "having sex". There is a note pointing out that not all English translations mention it as rape, but the way modern English-language translators chose to translate the passage is irrelevant in a section about what Ovid wrote: Ovid wrote in Latin, and what he literally wrote was that Neptune "vitiated" her - a verb that in Latin can only mean "corrupt, damage" or "violate sexually", but not have consensual sex (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vitio). As a literal descendant of the Latin "vitio" exists – the English "vitiate", with the same meaning –, I propose changing said part to "Neptune vitiated her". [[User:Dan Palraz|Dan Palraz]] ([[User talk:Dan Palraz|talk]]) 17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
::We can't rely on our own interpretations of Ovid. We must instead rely on how reliable sources interpret this passage in Ovid (see [[WP:RS]]). Ovid does not, in fact, "literally" say: {{tq|Neptune "vitiated" her}}. As you point out, Ovid wrote in Latin, so what he "literally" says is {{tq|''hanc pelagi rector templo vitiasse Minervae.''}}  While it is tempting to assume that Ovid's use of ''vitiasse'' here means the same thing as the English word "vitiated", for us to say that with no supporting reliable sources, would be "original research" (see [[WP:OR]]). Notice, by the way, that Ovid uses the same verb at ''Heroides'' [https://www-loebclassics-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/view/ovid-heroides/1914/pb_LCL041.135.xml 11.37], where the sex being referred to is clearly consensual. Lewis and Short translate the verb ''vitio'' as {{tq|to make faulty, to injure, spoil, mar, taint, corrupt, infect, vitiate}}. And in the context of Ovid's use here, clearly refers to having sexual intercourse, and in such a context ''can'' mean rape, but ''not necessarily''. The same can be said for the verb "corrupt" (or "ruin", "vitiate" etc.), which could be used in the context of forced sex, but can also mean to have consensual sex with a virgin (thereby, for example, "ruining" their value as a sexual partner or mate for someone else). [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 12:47, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
::: Fair enough, you are right; but as so many users have pointed out this specific issue by trying to edit that part out in the past, it would be worth considering a slight rewording. How about "corrupted her", then - which, as you have said, is as ambiguous as what Ovid literally wrote, whereas simply "have sex with", in 2023, no longer is considered acceptable as a possible synonym for "raped"? [[User:Dan Palraz|Dan Palraz]] ([[User talk:Dan Palraz|talk]]) 11:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::To "have sex with" means the same thing as to "have sexual intercourse with". And neither implies that the sex or sexual intercourse is consensual. That's why we define rape as "forced sex". The problem with he "corrupted her" is that this does not ''necessarily'' mean he had sex with her, although in this case this is what reliable sources assume Ovid meant. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 13:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::I've decided to replace "sex" with "sexual intercourse", is that better? [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 13:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::And now I've replaced "sexual intercourse" with "mated", which I think is better yet. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 16:13, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::No, it's still a problem because we're performing [[WP:OR]] using passing mentions or other sources. What we need to do is look over the sources and see how they characterize it, rather than trying to interpret Ovid ourselves. We absolutely cannot cite Ovid at all on that point, since it's essentially just a personal interpretation by editors that contradicts secondary sources - see eg. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/26308161][https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-47259-1_10][https://scholar.sun.ac.za/handle/10019.1/109278][https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1516/3NLL-UG13-TP2J-927M] - see especially the lengthy footnote from Johnston on this topic, saying {{tq|The Greek historian Hesiod and the poet Apollodorus, who earlier tell a more condensed version of Medusa’s story, both say that she “lay with” the god. However, translations of Ovid’s account define Neptune’s actions as rape. Arthur Golding’s Metamorphoses (1904), the version used by Shakespeare, describes how Neptune “abused” (line 74) Medusa in Pallas’ temple, a crime Athena punished by transforming Medusa “to put her foes in feare” (line 79). The 1717 Samuel Garth translation says that the “lustful” Neptune “seiz’d and rifled” Medusa, and that Minerva “on the ravished virgin took vengeance.” A.S. Kline’s 2000 interpretation of the text describes Neptune as “violating” Medusa and clarifies that Athena transformed Medusa’s hair to snakes so that she might terrify her enemies (Book 4, pp. 753–803)}} - since that's a secondary source going in-depth on this precise question, I'm inclined to see it as definitive. Certainly it isn't reasonable to read individual translations ourselves (being primary sources for how they translate it) and give them priority over it. Either way, do you have any sources ''specifically'' describing it as contested, or specifically performing the analysis you describe on the question? I'll also note that someone added an inappropriate in-line comment trying to forbid people from changing the text away from their preferred version; this is not allowed per [[MOS:COMMENT]] ({{tq|They should not be used to instruct other editors not to perform certain edits}}. If there was a clear consensus we could mention that, but I definitely do not see a consensus here or in any of the previous discussions; if necessary we can have an RFC but unless you can come up with some sourcing I missed, I think the sourcing is pretty clear-cut that it's generally described as rape in secondary coverage and that the outcome of any RFC would be clear in backing that up. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 20:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
:::Although you say that we can't rely on our own interpretations of Ovid, it seems to me like what you're presenting ''is'' your own interpretation of Ovid, coupled with a smattering of individual translations - these are not [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources and aren't really suitable for making such a specific claim. Certainly we shouldn't be citing or discussing the text or meaning of Ovid directly ourselves, that has to be cited to secondary analysis (and the only one I can find that specifically analyzes this point is Johnston, above, who unambiguously says that it is translated as rape.) Given the significant number of secondary sources that state unambiguously that Ovid's text describes Medusa being raped, do you have any similar secondary sources that analyze the question and reach a different conclusion? That is, do you have secondary sources for the argument you're presenting here yourself? Without that I feel that we have to just go with what secondary sources say; we can't dig into individual word-meanings to try and dispute secondary sources that flatly say Ovid's text describes Medusa being raped, and pointing to two translations that use different words doesn't strike me as enough when secondary sources are so clear. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

:Medusa was NEVER a priestess in Athena's temple. This does not exist in ANY mythological source, it is nothing more than a modern invention spread on the internet that everyone has come to believe. --[[Special:Contributions/2804:2FB0:418:2300:E992:D0F9:D21A:C7D3|2804:2FB0:418:2300:E992:D0F9:D21A:C7D3]] ([[User talk:2804:2FB0:418:2300:E992:D0F9:D21A:C7D3|talk]]) 02:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
::The issue is that we have to reflect what secondary sources say, not what individual editors believe is the "real" mythological story. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 21:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

{{Yo|Aquillion}} Thanks for your comments above, and for your recent edits to the article, I've started a new discussion about those edits below. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 12:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2024 ==

{{Edit semi-protected|Medusa|answered=yes}}
Suggesting replacing "human female" (IMO [[incel]]-esque wording) in the lead with "woman" or "human woman" [[User:Bordonianus|Bordonianus]] ([[User talk:Bordonianus|talk]]) 13:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
:I've changed this to "woman". [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 14:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2024  ==

{{Edit semi-protected|Medusa|answered=yes}}
I noticed that in the info box thingy it said something that what Poseidon did to Medusa was consensual. It was not. Please correct that. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:3907:1840:A462:3FC0:69A6:860C|2600:1700:3907:1840:A462:3FC0:69A6:860C]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:3907:1840:A462:3FC0:69A6:860C|talk]]) 21:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
:I'm not sure where you're looking, the article doesn't say that anywhere. Are you maybe looking at "Consort"? That is an entirely different and unrelated word – see {{Section link|wikt:consort#English}}. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 23:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

==[[Medusa]]: Recent changes==

Recently, how we describe Ovid's treatment of the Medusa story has been edited by {{u|Aquillion}}.

===Old version===
{{blockquote| In a late version of the Medusa myth, by the Roman poet [[Ovid]],<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' [https://www.loebclassics.com/view/ovid-metamorphoses/1916/pb_LCL042.235.xml 4.794–803].</ref> Medusa was originally a beautiful maiden, but when [[Neptune (mythology)|Neptune]] (the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Poseidon]]) mated with <!-- DO NOT change to RAPED per cited sources (see following note) -->  her in [[Minerva]]'s temple (Minerva being the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Athena]]),<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' 4.798: "the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love in chaste Minerva's temple" ([http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:latinLit:phi0959.phi006.perseus-eng1:4.706 Brookes More translation]) or "in Minerva’s temple Neptune, lord of the Ocean, ravished her" ([https://www.loebclassics.com/view/ovid-metamorphoses/1916/pb_LCL042.235.xml Frank Justus Miller translation, as revised by G. P. Goold]) Whether Ovid means that Medusa was a willing participant is unclear. Hard, [https://books.google.com/books?id=r1Y3xZWVlnIC&pg=PA61 p. 61], says she was "seduced"; Grimal, s.v. Gorgons, p. 174, says she was "ravished"; Tripp, s.v. Medusa, p. 363 says she "yielded". In the original Latin text, Ovid uses the verb "vitiasse" which is translated to mean "violate" or "corrupt" [https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ovid/ovid.met4.shtml line 798].</ref> Minerva punished Medusa by transforming her beautiful hair into horrible snakes.}}

{{reftalk}}

===New version===
{{blockquote|In a late version of the Medusa myth, by the Roman poet [[Ovid]],<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' [https://www.loebclassics.com/view/ovid-metamorphoses/1916/pb_LCL042.235.xml 4.794–803].</ref> Medusa was originally a beautiful maiden. Translations of Ovid describe [[Neptune (mythology)|Neptune]] (the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Poseidon]]) as raping her her in [[Minerva]]'s temple (Minerva being the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Athena]]).<ref>{{cite book|first1=Elizabeth|last1=Johnston|title=“Let Them Know That Men Did This”: Medusa, Rape, and Female Rivalry in Contemporary Film and Women’s Writing|url=https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-47259-1_10|publisher=Springer International Publishing|date=1990|location=Cham|isbn=978-3-319-47259-1|pages=183–208|via=Springer Link|doi=10.1007/978-3-319-47259-1_10|quote="Ovid describes Medusa as the beautiful mortal sister of two gorgons, female monsters with bulging eyes and fangs who can literally petrify men. Neptune desires and then rapes Medusa in Minerva’s temple..."; from the relevant footnote, "...translations of Ovid’s account define Neptune’s actions as rape..."}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|first1=Susan R.|last1=Bowers|title=Medusa and the Female Gaze|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/4316018|journal=NWSA Journal|date=1978|issn=1040-0656|pages=217–235|volume=2|issue=2|quote=In Ovid's Metamorphoses (1st century B.C.), Medusa is a young girl whose "beauty was far-famed." Because she was raped by Poseidon...}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|first1=Leo C.|last1=Curran|title=Rape and Rape Victims in the Metamorphoses|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/26308161|journal=Arethusa|date=July 4, 2017|issn=0004-0975|pages=213–241|volume=11|issue=1/2}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|first1=William|last1=Duffy|title=Medusa as Victim and Tool of Male Aggression|url=https://athenaeum.uiw.edu/verbumincarnatum/vol7/iss1/1|journal=Verbum Incarnatum: An Academic Journal of Social Justice|date=29 February 2020|issn=1934-9084|volume=7|issue=1|quote=...Ovid’s Metamorphoses 4.5750-803, in which Medusa is raped by Neptune in Minerva’s temple...}}</ref> Some sources use different language or translate the scene differently;<ref>Hard, [https://books.google.com/books?id=r1Y3xZWVlnIC&pg=PA61 p. 61], says she was "seduced"; Grimal, s.v. Gorgons, p. 174, says she was "ravished"; Tripp, s.v. Medusa, p. 363 says she "yielded".</ref> and some people{{who|date=May 2024}} say that whether Ovid means that Medusa was raped is unclear in the original text.{{or|reason=We don't cite any sources specifically saying it is unclear|date=May 2024}} Minerva punished Medusa by transforming her beautiful hair into horrible snakes.}}

{{reftalk}}

===Issues and proposal===
I have issues of my own with the old version, and I agree with Aquillion that that text is not ideal. ({{Yo|Aquillion}}  Thank you for your new text, and in particular the new sources you've cited above.) But I also have issues with the new version. I would like to discuss some of these issues here.

Many sources describe Ovid’s Medusa as being raped by Neptune. But some do not. Here are some examples from the sources I have immediately at hand:

*Translations:
**Brookes More: "the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love in chaste Minerva's temple" [http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:latinLit:phi0959.phi006.perseus-eng1:4.706]
** Frank Justus Miller translation, as revised by G. P. Goold: "in Minerva’s temple Neptune, lord of the Ocean, ravished her" [https://www-loebclassics-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org//view/ovid-metamorphoses/1916/pb_LCL042.235.xml]

*Mythological reference works:
**Hard (Robin Hard, ''The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology: Based on H.J. Rose's "Handbook of Greek Mythology"'', Psychology Press, 2004), [https://books.google.com/books?id=r1Y3xZWVlnIC&pg=PA61 p. 61], says Medusa was "seduced".
**Grimal (Pierre Grimal, ''The Dictionary of Classical Mythology'', Wiley-Blackwell, 1996. {{ISBN|978-0-631-20102-1}}), p. 174, says Medusa was "ravished".
**Bell, (Robert E. Bell, ''Women of Classical Mythology: A Biographical Dictionary'', [[ABC-Clio]]. 1991. {{ISBN|9780874365818|0874365813}}), pp. 296&ndash;297 says Medusa "made the mistake of sleeping with" Neptune. 
**Tripp (Tripp, Edward, ''Crowell's Handbook of Classical Mythology'', Thomas Y. Crowell Co., 1970), p. 363, says Medusa "yielded".

Duffy (one of the new sources cited by Aquillion above), who describes Medusa as being raped, also says this:
:p. 3
{{blockquote|Like many mythic figures, there are multiple versions of her tale, but they typically follow two threads: Medusa is either the mortal member of the already monstrous Gorgon sisters, or a woman transformed into a monster for the crime of defiling Athena’s temple due to (consensual or non-consensual) sex she has with Poseidon}}
:p. 4
{{blockquote|The Theogony depicts Medusa’s encounter with Poseidon as consensual, or at least does not explicitly describe any coercion … Indeed, it is not until the ''Metamorphoses'' that Medusa’s encounter with Poseidon is depicted as assault, and even afterwards it is not common to see the act described as rape in Classical works.}}
:p. 5
{{blockquote|As Medusa is a mythical figure, in her case the late and disputed account of her rape functions largely as an example of the variety that marks mythology as a narrative tradition.}}

All of the above speaks to a lack of universal scholarly consensus about the degree of consent/nonconsent Ovid meant to imply. It would be difficult for us to give an accurate well-sourced agreed-upon characterization of scholarly opinion on this issue.

The primary context here is Greek mythology, and given that Ovid's account is a late Roman, otherwise unknown, and possibly invented by Ovid for literary, poetical, polemical, thematic, or other reasons which tell us nothing about the existing mythology about Medusa, and, in which case, exactly what Ovid meant would be of no mythological significance at all. So this issue does not really need to be dealt with in this paragraph, and trying to do so, in this paragraph, would require a level of detail which would run up against [[WP:undo]].

Previous versions tried to side step this issue by simply saying Neptune "had sex with" or "sexual intercourse with" or "mated with" Medusa, without trying to characterize the degree of consent involved. I think this is the correct approach here (leaving aside the possibility of dealing with this interesting issue elsewhere in the article).

So I'm proposing we simply go back to "mated with", with no discussion about the issue of consent:

* Proposed:
{{blockquote|In a late version of the Medusa myth, by the Roman poet [[Ovid]],<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' [https://www.loebclassics.com/view/ovid-metamorphoses/1916/pb_LCL042.235.xml 4.794–803].</ref> Medusa was originally a beautiful maiden, but when [[Neptune (mythology)|Neptune]] (the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Poseidon]]) mated with her in [[Minerva]]'s temple (Minerva being the Roman equivalent of the Greek [[Athena]]), Minerva punished Medusa by transforming her beautiful hair into horrible snakes.}}

{{reftalk}}

If we think we must say something about consent then I propose that we do it in some agreed upon footnote.
[[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 12:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

::Ok I've now implemented this proposal. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 01:59, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

:::Good work digging this up, but would it be worth putting some of this into the article itself? &mdash;[[User:Ashley Y|Ashley Y]] 22:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

===Discussion of proposal===
Any comments on my proposal? [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 12:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

== Medieval Author: Christine de Pizan and Medusa ==

{{edit semi-protected|Medusa|answered=yes}}
In 1405, Christine de Pizan, a prominent medievalist writer, crafted ''The Book of the City of Ladies'' as a powerful response to male-authored, misogynistic literature and letters. Within her allegorical city of illustrious ladies, she reimagines the mythological figure, Medusa. In a departure from the typical portrayal in classical texts, De Pizan's Medusa is not a monstrous and deadly creature but a woman deserving of safety from male harm. Christine de Pizan is the first to provide a feminist revisionist perspective on the ancient myth. 
See: ''The Book of the City of Ladies and Other Writings''
Christine de Pizan, Edited, with an Introduction, by Rebecca Kingston and Sophie Bourgault; Translated by Ineke Hardy, 2018. URL: https://hackettpublishing.com/literature/italian-literature-in-translation/the-book-of-the-city-of-ladies-and-other-writings [[User:MedusaScholar|MedusaScholar]] ([[User talk:MedusaScholar|talk]]) 19:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:AlphaBetaGamma|ABG]] <small> ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGamma|Talk/Report any mistakes here]]) </small> 08:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

== Personal Information ==

“Personal information
…
Siblings
The Hesperides, Sthenno, Euryale, The Graeae, Thoosa, Scylla, and Ladon”

Shouldn’t  “Sthenno” be spelled “Stheno” in keeping with the rest of the article? [[User:Val2160|Val2160]] ([[User talk:Val2160|talk]]) 23:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:Yes. I've changed it. Thanks for pointing that out. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 00:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

== Edit Request: "Mated With" ==

Under the description of Ovid's version of Medusa's myth in the ''Metamorphoses'', it's written that Neptune "mated with" her--the word used in the Latin is ''vitiasse'' (''Met.'' 4.798), from ''vitio'', to violate sexually, and I think that the text ought to be changed to "raped" or "assaulted" to avoid obfuscating the violence of Neptune's action. 

Edit: whoops, I realize that this has been discussed above, my apologies. Still, I stand by the point that the verb specifically denotes a lack of consent: in my 2012 version of the Oxford Latin Dictionary, the relevant definition of "vitio" is "To impair by violating the virginity of" (p. 2292). The act is clearly a damaging one in violation of Medusa's body. Additionally, in conversation with the above topic, this particular subsection of the article is specifically dedicated to describing what Ovid wrote, and regardless of its "mythological significance" (which is still quite weighty, as Ovid contributes a lot to our information on myth), I believe that the article should accurately reflect the language that Ovid used.
[[User:ImaginesMaiorum|ImaginesMaiorum]] ([[User talk:ImaginesMaiorum|talk]]) 02:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
:The sources cited in discussions above demonstrate that there isn't a scholarly consensus as to whether Ovid considered the sex consensual or non-consensual. We can't provide our own interpretation of what Ovid meant, as this is [[WP:Original research]]. I think that the wording we are currently using, that Neptune "mated with" her, is about as neutral as is possible, and I can't, at least not off the top of my head, think of a better way to phrase things. We could potentially add back a note discussing the views of sources on whether the intercourse was consensual (I think the old note [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Medusa&oldid=1254047027#cite_note-2] would work fine), but, given the disagreements on this subject above, it would be best if the note chosen was the result of consensus. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 05:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
::Stephanie McCarter produced a recent translation of Ovid's ''Metamorphoses'' in 2022. Its description [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/604957/metamorphoses-by-ovid-translated-by-stephanie-mccarter/# on the publisher's website (Penguin Random House)] describes it as follows: "Past translations have obscured or mitigated Ovid’s language so that rape appears to be consensual sex. Through her translation, McCarter considers the responsibility of handling sexual and social dynamics. McCarter's translation renders this line (''Met.'' 4.798): "They say the sea-god raped her in Minerva's temple." (p. 125) Of McCarter and her translation, [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/14/should-ovids-metamorphoses-have-a-trigger-warning Daniel Mendelsohn of the New York Times], says, "she strips away a number of inaccuracies and embellishments that have accreted in translations over the decades and centuries, obscuring the sense of certain passages, particularly those portraying women and sexual violence." Nina McLaughlin concurs with McCarter's rendition in her 2019 book ''Wake, Siren: Ovid'' Re''sung'': "The word is violence. Violation. Force. Chaos. Force. Violence. Chaos. Force. Violation. Rape. Rape. Rape. Rape. Rape. Let’s say what it was. He put his body where I did not want his body. This is the moment I was amputated from myself." (p. 140) and the two writers discuss the importance of an accurate translation in McCarter's interview of McLaughlin [https://electricliterature.com/wake-siren-ovid-resung-reclaims-the-voices-of-the-women-from-myth/ here], in which McCarter herself writes, "These are all actual published translations—by men—for what Ovid clearly describes as rape (''vitiasse'')." This same interview also discusses the historical tendency of translators to obfuscate the violence of sexual acts which are boldly stated in their original languages.
::[https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/a-commentary-on-ovids-metamorphoses/BA388C6830EEC5FCE3EF535A2846BE51 The Cambridge Commentary on Book 4 of Ovid's ''Metamorphoses'' by Gianpiero Rosati, published in 2024], also specifically says (emphasis mine), "perhaps it was an episode on whose details he [Perseus] would prefer not to dwell, although the (heterodiegetic) story of Medusa’s beauty, and of <u>the violence that Neptune inflicts upon her</u>," (p. 468). Even William S. Anderson says [https://www.oupress.com/9780806128948/ovids-metamorphoses-books-1-5/ in his commentary on Book 4] of the ''Metamorphoses'' (emphasis mine), "the verb [''vitiasse''], carefully set in the middle of the phrase about Minerva's temple, emphasizes the shocking affront to the goddess and her essential chastity. What Medusa was doing in the shrine, Perseus does not say, but we should probably assume that she was acting reverently and modestly. <u>Of Neptune, though, we have to think the worst: his lust has defiled the temple and a worshipper, and he has made her vulnerable to the angry goddess.</u>" (pp. 495-6).
::I also refute the assertion that my earlier remark on the definition of ''vitio'' is "original research": as I said, the quotation I provide for its definition is from the 2012 edition of the ''Oxford Latin Dictionary'', published by Oxford University Press and edited by P.G.W. Glare.
::This is a small sampling of <u>recent</u> sources that I have easy to hand, from experts on the Latin language commenting on the appropriate translation of the word Ovid chose to use, and I am very willing to provide more if requested. If we are going to discuss "scholarly consensus," I would say that it has taken a turn in recent years to confront the fact that <u>in Ovid's version of the story</u>, as he wrote it with the meaning of the word he chose to use, Neptune raped Medusa. [[User:ImaginesMaiorum|ImaginesMaiorum]] ([[User talk:ImaginesMaiorum|talk]]) 22:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Have you read the section "Issues and proposal above? [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 02:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
:::{{yo|ImaginesMaiorum}} Thanks for providing these sources. Apologies for taking so long to get back to you; I will try to address the points you've raised here.
:::I wasn't suggesting that the ''definition'' of ''vitio'' which you quoted was itself original research, but rather that, assuming, on the basis of this definition alone, we can interpret what Ovid meant in this context, is original research (which is what you were suggesting in your first comment).
:::McCarter's translation is both recent and, from what I can tell, generally praised for its quality and reliability; on any matter other than the current one it would likely be a very good source. However, on the specific topic of sexual violence and rape, her translation has been noted for its explicitness and avoidance of euphemism and ambiguity; she herself states that rendering instances of sexual violence in this manner is one of the main goals of her translation. As such, using her translation as a benchmark for the current scholarly consensus on this issue is problematic, as she will probably be considerably more likely than other scholars to use a word such as "rape" to describe sexual encounters, such as the one between Poseidon and Medusa. Now, to what degree McCarter's translation might be more "true" or "right" than others (whatever meaning those words have in this context) as a result of this, isn't really our concern, or the basis upon which we judge matters on Wikipedia; if her work is ground-breaking, then relevant articles will reflect her work once this "broken ground" is largely accepted by scholars of the subject.
:::The other sources you cite in your first paragraph aren't really of any value here. On Wikipedia, [[WP:Reliable sources]] are those we follow, and in this context, such sources are academic works by reputable scholars. As such, news articles, interviews, and certainly works of fiction are not of significance here. Reviews are certainly valuable, but they are held to the same standard of reliability as other sources; an example of such a review of McCarter's work would be this one from the BMCR. [https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2023/2023.08.39/]
:::''However'', in spite of all of the above, I think your point that in recent years the scholarly consensus has changed towards considering the sexual encounter between Poseidon and Medusa in Ovid's narrative to be rape, ''might'' be accurate. The two sources you cite in your second paragraph are both reliable and relatively recent, and are the sort of sources we would look to as indicators of the current consensus among scholars. After you left your reply here, I tried to survey a variety of translations, reference works, and other sources, to see what the current consensus seems to be; probably this matter (and whether the article ought to be altered) should be the subject of a discussion involving more editors, perhaps an RFC, so as to come to a lasting consensus, and stop the topic being brought up periodically.
:::&ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 16:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
::::In the meantime, how is it appropriate to leave the page as it currently is? It seems on its face hypocritical to demand general scholarly consensus to use the word "raped" when insisting on the avoidance of the word "raped" (which is a strong ideological commitment -- your assertion that replacing the term with "mated with" is "neutral" is frankly ridiculous) at least equally lacks consensus. Moreover, the current "translation" of ''vitiasse'' as "mated with" is certainly original research and at the very least should be marked as such; this definition has as far as I can tell never been used in any translation of this passage, nor in any dictionary.
::::Moreover, not following the universally accepted definition of the term qua sexual violation requires significant critical evidence not just sweeping the term under the rug but addressing why it should be translated differently; this evidence is simply lacking, at least on this page at present. I am not saying that it is not possible for an alternative meaning to be considered, but when one is asking editors to disregard the basic and accepted meaning of a word -- a meaning which in the OLD ed. 2 (p. 2292) directly cites Met. 4.798 for its usage of the term! -- in favor of a radical interpretation which, if you look at the "Recent Changes" section, you will see has been based largely on two translations by Latinists both published over 100 years ago -- if one is asking the editors to do this, retaining the radical interpretation as the default until an RFC is made and discussed to consensus is simply unreasonable.
::::Honestly, it seems to me that the fact that this debate continues, as well as the recent open scholarly and literary discussion of the term and its implications in this context (as evidenced by ImaginesMaiorum's citations), indicates that editors find the topic significantly important to the point that it should probably be mentioned on the page anyway.
::::I suggest for the moment something like 'Medusa was originally a beautiful maiden, but when Neptune (the Roman equivalent of the Greek Poseidon) violated her virginity (''vitiasse'') in Minerva's temple (Minerva being the Roman equivalent of the Greek Athena), Minerva punished Medusa by transforming her beautiful hair into horrible snakes. The use of the word ''vitiasse'' in the above has become the subject of significant critical discussion in recent years, with newer translations and commentaries generally translating the word as "raped," while older ones ------------.' The blank here should be filled in by someone else taking the other side; honestly, I do not understand their argument and thus cannot really summarize it in a neutral way.
::::To be clear, ImaginesMaiorum is correct, the consensus is there, and the page should not really discuss past sanitizations at all, but given the "mated with" corner's affinity for dismissing the general current understanding as original research or insufficiently agreed-upon, I do not think I can hope for this.{{or}}{{dubious}} [[User:FixTheMedusaPage|FixTheMedusaPage]] ([[User talk:FixTheMedusaPage|talk]]) 03:16, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::What is being strived for in the relevant sentence is a term which does not imply anything regarding consent or lack of consent. Perhaps "mated with" is not the best term, and your "violated her virginity" would be a possibility provided we knew that Ovid means to imply that she was a virgin. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 15:10, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::From what I can tell, mythological reference works generally avoid the word "rape" in reference to Ovid's version, while recent translations often use it. This leads me to think that a balanced solution might be something to the effect of "mated with her (in an act often translated as rape)". The trouble here is of course sourcing; for the overall statement, I think it would be good to use a source which would be standard in this context, eg. Gantz, p. 20 (who has "mating with"), but that leaves the set of brackets. I suppose we ''could'' simply cite a handful of such translations? &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 12:40, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::::"Mated with (in an act often translated as rape)" is a rather strange expression and I don't think it's very good phrasing. It's better than what is currently there to be sure, and I would like to make the change if everyone can agree on it simply to get the word on the page, but I don't think it will resolve any debates. I do think "had sex with (in an act often translated as rape)" is categorically better than "mated with," though.
:::::::While I do understand the desire to cite the most "comprehensive" works, I do think that citing mythological reference works which summarize and synthesize massive quantities of mythological information as on par with Ovid scholarship on the specific topic of the meaning of one line in Ovid seems rather perverse. If you want to go with an ambiguous route, I think it would be best if you at least cited both modern Ovid scholarship which argues it is rape and modern Ovid scholarship which argues it is not rape; I cannot find any of the latter, but perhaps you have some citations.
:::::::Moreover, while you discuss the recentness of this interpretation throughout, looking through the relevant scholarship I've been surprised rather by how far the consensus goes back. In fact, I have not found a single work of (1) Ovid scholarship, (2) published in a journal of classics, (3) which discusses the Medusa-Neptune narrative and does not refer to the act in 4.798 as rape. In fact, the first discussion of 4.798 in scholarship that I know of is "Rape and Rape Victims in Ovid's Metamorphoses" (1978). [[User:FixTheMedusaPage|FixTheMedusaPage]] ([[User talk:FixTheMedusaPage|talk]]) 09:47, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::::::The point is not {{tq|simply to get the word on the page}}. That's the wrong approach; we don't decide we want to include something and then find sources to justify it, we look at sources and try to mirror how they represent things. Also, the above was just a suggestion; no changes should be made until there is a consensus to include that (or any) suggested solution.
::::::::I don't have an opinion as to whether "mated with her" or "had sex with her" is better; either is fine in my view. Also, the phrasing in my above suggestion wasn't really the point (ie., it wasn't really intended to be the actual wording we would use), the point was that we follow mythological reference works for the statement "mated with" (or similar), and then we note in brackets that the term is often translated as rape. (Also, the phrasing was "mated with ''her'' (in an act often translated as rape)".)
::::::::Our concern here is with Medusa's mythology, not with Ovid or his narrative, his intentions or any such thing. As such, I really don't see why we wouldn't follow mythological reference works; the point is not that they are comprehensive, but they are the most appropriate sources in this context. If you want to write an article about rape in Ovid's narrative, go for it; such sources would be highly appropriate there.
::::::::Frankly, this conversation (and those above) are such an astounding waste of time, when whether or not Ovid meant for the sex to be rape is of virtually no significance to Medusa's mythology (which is something everyone appears to be in agreement with). But if you dislike my proposed reworking and want to suggest a different way of dealing with the matter then you can do so, just as long as it's brief and stays focused on Medusa and her mythology.
::::::::Also (and this does not necessarily change anything at all), but your username and your focus on this one issue makes your account look like a [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account]]. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 13:45, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::No one here is {{tq|insisting on the avoidance of the word "raped"}}. My above response was quite reasonable I think, and was given after spending several days looking at various relevant sources. And, as I said in that response, I ''think'' it may be correct to say that the scholarly consensus has shifted in favour of describing the intercourse in Ovid's narrative as rape, but whether (or how) the article should be changed is something which should be decided by a discussion involving more editors, so that a lasting consensus can be achieved. That I (or someone else) didn't start a discussion is simply because people here are volunteers, and such discussions take time and effort; no one is obliged to start one.
:::::Addressing the points you've made, the term "mated with" implies neither that the sex is consensual nor non-consensual; it is obviously indisputable that Neptune ''does'' mate with Medusa in Ovid's narrative, so there is nothing inaccurate about the claim in the article. Using it simply avoids the question of consent altogether. That said, it is possible that this avoidance of the matter of consent is itself not in line with how most recent scholarly sources treat the subject, and, if so, that might be cause for change. As has been noted above, taking the definition of the word in dictionaries and claiming that it therefore means the same thing in this passage is [[WP:OR]] (except, perhaps, in cases where the dictionary gives that definition in reference to that passage, though even then we always prefer mythological reference works, translations, and commentaries).
:::::I don't think your proposed solution would work at all, as most of it, per [[WP:RS/AC]], very likely wouldn't be sourceable. Nor should we have a lengthy discussion in the "Mythology" section on the meaning of Ovid's passage and how it's been viewed and interpreted. Fundamentally, this article is about a Greek mythological figure, and Ovid is both a relatively late author and a Roman one, prior to whom all accounts of their intercourse are consensual. Thus Ovid's narrative may be his own invention, in which case it tells us very little of the mythological traditions around Medusa, and a discussion of how scholars have translated the term tells us next to nothing about her mythology.
:::::All of that said, we really ought to try and settle this matter, if for no reason other rather than to stop it from being brought up repeatedly as a topic of discussion. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 12:11, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
::::::I wish to address a few points in response.
::::::First of all, yes, if you are not allowing the page to be changed to say "raped," you are insisting on the avoidance of the word "raped." This seems like an essentially tautological point so I don't think there's anything much more to say there.
::::::Next, I do not intend to say that "mated with" by definition means consensual sex; nonetheless, when a term is one of sexual violence and a translation is chosen which eliminates that connotation, the text has been fundamentally changed, and that constitutes original research. In fact, however you try to "avoid the question of consent altogether," you are fundamentally changing the text. As to the definition OR thing, if you will reread my response, the OLD ed. 2 does give the definition of violation of virginity in reference to that passage, so this point is moot. Also, both translations and commentaries have already been cited in this thread.
::::::On the front of whether this story is Ovid's invention, indeed I think it is! You'll note that at the beginning of the paragraph it says "In a late version of the Medusa myth by the Roman poet Ovid." With this in mind, yes, I do think we should strive to be accurate to the late version of the Medusa myth by the Roman poet Ovid. If you do not wish to be accurate to Ovid, delete the reference to Ovid.
::::::[Moreover, and here I'm just appealing to basic common sense, "mate with" is such an insane locution that "had sex with," equally bad on the consent front, would be infinitely better in any case. Neptune is not an animal. Medusa is not an animal. Neptune and Medusa do not "mate."] [[User:FixTheMedusaPage|FixTheMedusaPage]] ([[User talk:FixTheMedusaPage|talk]]) 08:38, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::::{{tq|you are insisting on the avoidance of the word "raped."}}: Look straight above my comment in response to you and you will see that I am suggesting we use the word rape.
:::::::{{tq|that constitutes original research}}: The term "mating with", as noted just above, appears in [[Timothy Gantz]]'s ''Early Greek Myth'', p. 20, in his treatment of the myth. [[WP:OR]] is, by defintion, material {{tq|for which no reliable, published source exists}}, so the term is clearly not original research here. (And Gantz's book is a well-regarded and highly reliable source for Greek mythology.)
:::::::{{tq|if you will reread my response, the OLD ed. 2 does give the definition of violation of virginity in reference to that passage}}: Yes, of course I realised this, that was why I placed that caveat in my comment.
:::::::{{tq|If you do not wish to be accurate to Ovid}}: What constitutes "accurate to Ovid" needs to be based upon modern, scholarly sources, though. In addition to this, for a matter where there is disagreement among sources, we need to do more than this: we need to do our best to evaluate the scholarly consensus amongst relatively recent sources, taking into consideration numerous sources. The suggested solution I've given above is relatively balanced I think, and was based upon my reading of roughly two dozen sources in relation to this.
:::::::&ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 09:45, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
::::::::See above for my response to your above; I think this I essentially address all this there. I do take back the accusation of original research on "mated with" due to the mentioned Gantz; I still think it is the wrong phrasing, since I think we should use a source specifically about the Medusa myth and not just some well-regarded compendium. I mostly address your last paragraph in my other reply. If you can't find the relevant sources, I can post them in a reply here, but since most every analysis of rape in Ovid discusses Medusa, and most every analysis of Medusa in Ovid discusses rape, I don't think I'll really need to. [[User:FixTheMedusaPage|FixTheMedusaPage]] ([[User talk:FixTheMedusaPage|talk]]) 10:18, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Although as mentioned above I do think we should shift the phrasing on the page to something like what you mentioned until further consensus can be reached. [[User:FixTheMedusaPage|FixTheMedusaPage]] ([[User talk:FixTheMedusaPage|talk]]) 10:19, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Medusa|answered=yes}}
CHANGE: “but when Neptune (the Roman equivalent of the Greek Poseidon) mated with her in Minerva's temple”

TO: “but when Neptune (the Roman equivalent of the Greek Poseidon) raped her in Minerva's temple”

SOURCE:
Stone Blind by Natalie Haynes.
Natalie Haynes is a Cambridge  university Classics graduate and internationally selling author, journalist and broadcaster specialising in mythology. [[User:Ekatarinaequalitatem|Ekatarinaequalitatem]] ([[User talk:Ekatarinaequalitatem|talk]]) 08:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

:As far as I'm aware, the myth has always been that Poseidon and Medusa were in a genuine relationship and that it was a consensual act between the two, with Medusa actually being the one to suggest doing it in Athena's temple. [[User:Sirocco745|Sirocco745]] ([[User talk:Sirocco745|talk]]) 08:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

:The book you've referenced is a work of fiction. For an answer to your query, see the discussions higher up on this page. &ndash; [[User:Michael Aurel|Michael Aurel]] ([[User talk:Michael Aurel|talk]]) 09:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

== Move discussion in progress ==

There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:Gorgonocephalus caputmedusae#Requested move 3 June 2025|Talk:Gorgonocephalus caputmedusae]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Gorgonocephalus caputmedusae#Requested move 3 June 2025 crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 21:15, 3 June 2025 (UTC)