View source for Talk:Knot

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Technology}}
{{WikiProject Craft}}
{{WikiProject Knots}}
}}

__TOC__

==Requests==

Hi, can someone enlighten me as to the origin of the phrase "an intentional complication in cordage", as a definition of what a knot is? Was this written by a Wikipedia editor, or this page especially? Or was it taken from some pre-existing work about knots? The phrase is all over the internet, in a way that suggests everyone has just copied the Wikipedia page. But I'd love to be able to name the originator of this phrase/attribute it correctly. Thanks.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/46.208.254.208|46.208.254.208]] ([[User talk:46.208.254.208#top|talk]]) 16:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

'''Line-Editing'''

(This request is about language, not content.) Starting on several rounds of line edits to bring up the syntax to professional standards. If anyone else with an eye for dangling modifiers and redundancies would like to join, polishing this beautiful article should be a party! Knotfully yours, [[User:Knotaholic|Knotaholic]] (October 12, 2009).  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 18:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

'''Jamming definition'''

Can someone explain in the article what jamming and non-jamming mean? As in ''the [[Alpine butterfly knot]] is a non-jamming loop on the bight''. --[[User:Audiovideo|Audiovideo]] 02:46, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:I am in the process of writing a new section tentatively entitled "Knot Properties" which will encompass how knots behave after they're tied -- it will include a discussion of security, capsizing, jamming, releasing, etc. -- [[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 18:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

'''Knot Strength Citations'''
Most of the hard information in the Knot Strength section I recently added comes from ''The History and Science of Knots'' for which I added a ref at the bottom of the article.  Specifically it comes from Chapter 10, "Studies on the Behaviour of Knots" written by Charles Warner.  I'm pretty new to Wikipedia, so if someone more experienced could suggest (or implement :) a reasonable citation method to use here I'd appreciate it.  TNX --  [[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 20:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

'''Something is wrong with >>List of loop knots'''
When klicking on >>List Of loop knots<< at the bottom the >>knot<< page, the knot page is displayed again. The >>List of loop knots<< cannot be reached. Can anybody fix this? (Sorry, I was not able to fix it.)  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hild|Hild]] ([[User talk:Hild|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hild|contribs]]) 18:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==General==
I noticed no reference whatsoever to the use of the word "knot" to mean a large wad of bills, generally kept in most urban street entrepeneur's front pant pocket. The wad of bills from a side view resembles layered fibers of an actual rope, while creating an impenetrable dense mass. 

----

''Are you spelunking?, having foolishly but voluntarily buried yourself pre-maturely under millions of tons of rock?''

Whilst I doubt this has a place in a serious encyclopedia, it kept me amused...
----
I felt that the basic terms like "bight" were better included in the main entry, so I killed my brand new bight article and stuck it and a few other definitions (wiki not dictionary) in a bulleted list.  

I started to do the same to the categories of knots, but backed off when I looked at [[loop (knot)|loop]].  I still think these terms would be better defined within the main entry.  Hearing no objections, I'll probably continue to make these changes, taking care not to make a mess.  

Also, how about some sub-categories in that looooong list of knot names? [[user:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]] June 02
----
Just figured out how 'Talk' works.  I am pleased to have the above observations either anonymous or from you Ortolan88.  

I am very new to this endeavor and I am still learning the Wiki editing, such as how to embed my handle [[user:Satsun|Satsun]], thanks Ortolan88.

'''like "bight" ...''' I agree and hope the picture assists.  We can keep a brief inline definition and add a link to a more replete link later.

The second observation is right on the mark.  I would like to see the categories turned to links and therein will be sub-lists of knots that fall into those categories.  Many knots, of course, will appear in multiple lists.

I feel that a comphrensive master list of knots needs to exist for our users.  I am hoping to provide a standard look to the pictures.  Later adding articles/pictures showing intermediate steps to tying each knot.

A useful list of reference materials is need: Ashley's Book of Knots...
A short list of the most practical knots all should know: overhand, figure eight, bowline, constrictor...

Its knot to late to add more good ideas.
[[user:Satsun|Satsun]], 18 JUNE 2002
 
Good luck to the person/persons who have taken it upon themselves to complete this part of the pedia. [[user:richhill|richhill]]
----
Hey, [[user:Satsun|Satsun]], I like moving the full list of knots out of the article, but how about a short list of knots for the main article, "the eight great knots everyone should know how to tie" or something like that, overhand, square knot (and its buddy the shoe-tying bow), sheet bend, two half-hitches, bowline, figure-of-eight (I knew you knew what you were doing when you didn't call it "figure-eight"), etc.  [[user:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]
----
I have one problem with that. The 'should' in the title seems a bit too prescriptive for an encyclopedia, in my opinion. But that's nothing that can't be solved with a bit of rewording. -- [[user:Ellmist|Ellmist]]
----
Eight great knots.  I don't know that anyone would really get upset by a "should", but ...[[user:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]
----
hi, [[user:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]/[[user:Ellmist|Ellmist]],<BR>
Please go ahead and add your list. A comment and link to the fellow that has the speed record for tying the the "Scout" knots would also be interesting.<BR>
[[user:Satsun|Satsun]], Sunday, July 14, 2002
----
Hi Satsun. I modified your template a little bit to start with a sentence explaining that the entry is a type of knot. I had to read halfway down the [[Sheepshank]] page before I realized it was talking about a knot. -- [[user:Nate Silva|Nate]]
----
This article really needs to be split, with a [[knot]] disambiguation at the top. [[User:Egil|Egil]] 09:04 Feb 3, 2003 (UTC)
----
You might try to move the top 7 or so knot properties into a table, and leave the main section for history, descriptions, tying tips, proper usage, etc.  I do not like the header format - the headers are too large for such small bits of information.  Also, the grey and black illustrations are very clear and easy to read.  The unprofessional pictures of tightened knots i.e [[Trucker's_hitch]]  can be somewhat unclear (my apologies to the photographer - those who can't do, whine & complain), although the properly lit shots i.e [[Figure-of-eight knot]] can be both attractive and informative.
----
[[bowline]] links to [[slip knot]] as part of directions on how to tie it "lighting fast". Unfortunately, this redirects to [[knot]], which doesn't seem to have directions on how to tie a slip knot. *sigh* --[[User:Johnleemk|Johnleemk]] 10:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
----
This article is accompanied by a beautiful picture of several knots, conveniently numbered, and I have no idea what any of them are (and since I'm moving, and haven't yet unpacked from moving here, I couldn't tell you where I've put Clifford Ashley). [[User:Calieber|&#9829; «Charles A. L.»]] 01:04, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

*2) I updated the caption. number 4 still has me stuck but it sure does look like a 'rosebud' stopper. [[User:TheHungryTiger|TheHungryTiger]] 22:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
----
To Ortolan88 .. Dear Sir i think that your idea of eight knots or bends and hitches ,that every one should know is great,but please put in the safe ones, not ones like the blackwall hitch or midshipmans hitch,that will slip if there is any oil on or in the rope,allso, the easy ones,that you can tie in a force eight gale,on a black wet night, Regards Ratty876 ...
----
'''Knots, Splices and Rope Work on Project Gutenberg'''<br>
Project Gutenberg recently posted [http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/3/5/1/13510/13510-h/13510-h.htm Knots, Splices and Rope Work], by A. Hyatt Verrill which has many illustrations which could be used for the knot pages. -- [[User:Jimregan|Jim ]][[User talk:Jimregan|Regan]] 19:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
----
I reorganized this discussion in an attempt to make it more readable. Hopefully I have not distorted any of the comments, etc.--my sincere apologies if I have. [[User:BoomHitch|BoomHitch]] 03:20, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
----
Caption to the picture identifies knot 1 as a splice which is incorrect - this is a specialist knot used to join marline for serving when a bulky knot is not desired - it is called a marline bend or a 'rope yarn knot' ABoK #2688.  In the book it is published in, it is called a garnknop - Swedish translation is 'yarnknot'
[[User:DerekSmith|DerekSmith]] ([[User talk:DerekSmith|talk]]) 09:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

==Formatting for subtopics==
'''Knot name''' is a type of [[knot]].

'''Canonical Name:'''.<BR>
'''Variant Name(s):''' None.<BR>
[completed picture]<BR>
'''Category:''' [[bend]].[[binding]].[[coil knot|coil]].[[decorative]].[[hitch]].[[lashing]].[[loop (knot)|loop]] on the end.[[loop (knot)|loop]] on the bight.[[noose]].[[plaits]].[[stopper]].[[seizing]],[[sennit]].[[whipping knot|whipping]].<BR>
'''Origin:''' Ancient.Modern.Old.Unknown.<BR>
'''Related knots:''' to other knots<BR>
'''Releasing:''' Jamming. Non-jamming.<BR>
'''Efficiency:''' Unknown%.60%.<BR>
'''Caveat:''' None.[[spills]].[[slips]].secure if wet.not secure if wet.Low efficiency.Difficult to tie.<BR>
'''Uses:''' Forming other knots, Boating, Fishing, Climbing, Caving, Securing objects, Securing to objects.<BR>
'''Comments:''' <BR>
'''Structure:''' ex. Figure-of-eight knot<BR>
'''Tying:'''  article/pictures<BR>

----
'''Proposal: Template'''
{{knot-details|name=Reef knot|names=Square knot
|type=|strength=80%|origin=ancient|related=|releasing=
|uses=Sailing|image=Sqrknot.png}}

Other wikipedia pages use some type of template for information which is laid-out in the same way across many articles, leaving the page itself freeform for writing about that specific item.

[[Wikipedia:Infobox_templates|Wiki guidelines on information boxes]] has a few examples

Howabout something like that for knots?  [[User:Ojw|Ojw]] 19:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

*I like it. Thanks for the work. It can always be modified for aesthetics later (that's the beauty of templates--no pun intended) (I would prefer a different color for the top line, <s>perhaps some color added to the knot picture</s> (sorry, I must be asleep)). [[User:BoomHitch|BoomHitch]] 07:41, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

::Would anyone be intereted in reviving [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Knots]]? [[User:Samw|Samw]] 03:40, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:Knots are really hurting for an infobox.  I'm mildly interested in reviving the project, but I don't see it as anything more than a standards committee. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 19:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


:For lack of comment, I think I'm going to start converting knot articles to the infobox format. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 04:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

*I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, but have spent many years playing with and studying knots -- and there really is no such thing as a true "Canonical Name" for every knot — even just in English — let alone in worldwide usage.  Some knots like the bowline are very close to canonical, but for most there are at least two or three in common usage (and sometimes conflicting usage) throughout the English speaking world.  Really the closest anyone has to canonical identification for knots are the [[Ashley Book of Knots|Ashley reference numbers]].  They are what are used in scholaraly works on knots to unabiguously idenitfy them.  I'm not suggesting they be at the top in place of the Name or anything, but I believe there should be a field in the infobox for them.  And often multiple Ashley numbers will cover the same knot for different uses, so the field description should be "Ashley Numbers" rather than the singluar.  And, also, I just added a section on knot strength detailing some of the pitfalls of assigning specific values to knot efficiency.  Clearly some knots are better than other and I would propose that a coarse rating scheme be used like good/average/poor rather than putting specific numbers in for efficiency.  Just my initial thoughts.  Since I do have a reasonable amount of knowledge on the subject I've decided to be bold in my editing.  If anybody thinks it's out of hand, just let me know.  :)  --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 22:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

::Your edits have been fine.  And in case you didn't notice, the post about an infobox effort was several months ago, so I wouldn't hold your breath at this point. ;^) [[User:Wrp103|wrp103 (Bill Pringle)]] 13:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

:::I rewrote about a score of knot articles to the infobox format, but then I realized that the infobox has serious problems, so I stopped.  However, I think that I can address ''Dfred'''s confusion about the "efficiency": I believe that it measures how much the knot degrades the rope's strength.  Thus, if you use a 100-lb-test line to tie a knot with an efficiency of 60%, you should expect the line to break at 60 lb. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 03:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Indeed, the massive scale of the needed work is beginning to dawn on me...  I noticed one other [[User:Johan Andersson|person]] recently joined [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Knots]] and I've been trying to get my feet wet before contacting those folks who've expressed an interest in the past.  Regarding knot efficiency, see the [[Knot#Strength]] section I recently added for the basis of my comments.  A bulk citation for that section at the [[Talk:Knot#Requests|top of this talk page]], but I wasn't sure what style to start using on this page since there really weren't too many cites in the body of the article. --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 18:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

==Backwards taut-line hitch?==
Most pictures I've seen of this knot show the final half-hitch tossed in reverse of the way the photo (on the page linked to through this intro. article) demonstrates, in this case being thrown "over and under" instead of the "under and over" shown. Either way, it tightens pretty well, but I wonder which version is correct, and which holds better. Sfahey 21:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

: The instructions on how to tie a [[taut-line hitch]] conform to what you say.  Furthermore, the [[two half-hitches]] article says that the two half hitches should face in opposite directions, but I don't know whether or not that actually matters for the taut-line hitch. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 03:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks. I got a headache trying to follow those loops around. [[User:Sfahey|Sfahey]] 02:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Supposedly, the correct [[two half-hitches]] resembles a [[clove hitch]] rather than a [[cow hitch]]. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 20:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
:I believe the main issue here is one of nomenclature, which is a big problem in general for knotting...  Two similar friction hitches are often tied around the standing part of a rope resulting functionally in a "taut-line hitch", they are: the Rolling Hitch (Ashley #1734) and the Magnus Hitch (#1736).  It is possible that BSA or some other organization considers the Rolling Hitch version "correct", but they are both equivalently secure if worked up properly.  Personally I'm in agreement with Ashley that the Magnus Hitch (which is pictured) lays better and has somewhat less propensity to roll.  I will also put this comment in [[Talk:Taut-line_hitch]] and attempt to clarify in that article that both forms should probably be considered valid. --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 21:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
:This discussion is now occurring in [[Talk:Taut-line_hitch]] and further comments should probably go there.--[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 15:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
::I've made a stab at trying to address the various tying methods at [[Taut-line hitch#Variations]]. --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 05:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

== "How to" tie knots ==

Per [[WP:NOT#IINFO]]: "'''Wikipedia articles should not ... contain "how-to"s'''."   Thus, in order to comply with the [[Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines|official policy]], we should think about removing all how-to and tying instructions from Knot articles.  I personally wish it weren't so, but that is the policy. [[User:Dddstone|Dddstone]] 14:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
:But the five pillars include a policy to [[WP:Ignore all rules|ignore any policy]] that doesn't make sense. ;^) [[User:Wrp103|wrp103 (Bill Pringle)]] 20:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

:As I understand it, we avoid how-tos because, in most cases, the way to ''do'' something does not intrinsically characterize the thing itself.  This is not the case with knots.  The sequence of manipulations that forms a knot describes its topology.  However, we should follow this policy, at least in part, by only listing one procedure to tie any knot. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 06:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks for bringing this issue up...  After reading WP:NOT thoroughly for the first time a month or so ago I must admit I was discouraged.  I started to question whether my knot documentation efforts are best directed into Wikipedia.  The WP:NOT policy clearly exists for some very good reasons, but understanding how exceptions are handled would make me feel somewhat better.  As wrp103 and Smack noted above, it does seem like there's some room for interpretation regarding knot tying methods in WP.  However I am concerned there are some folks who seem to take the no how-to policy quite literally and could later negate a great deal of effort on knotting articles.  I think it would be much easier to entice new serious contributors (say, some [[International Guild of Knot Tyers|IGKT]] members) if this issue can be hashed-out to a reasonable degree -- nobody wants to see their good faith work junked...

::It does seem to me that full-fledged, properly referenced knot articles are indeed suitable for an encyclopedia.  I definitely agree that [[WP:SENSE|common sense]] would suggest that the process of tying a knot is intrinsically connected to a full description of a knot and that an article should be considered incomplete without a basic tying description.  I'd be interested in feedback from more experienced wikipedians regarding whether [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Knots#Draft Informal guidelines on editing knotting articles|project-specific guidelines]] are an appropriate and reliable way to codify a project's self-regulation and justification in cases of a systemic borderline policy issue in the project's articles?  --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 20:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Even though I just proposed that we violate the how-to policy, I'm sure that much knotting information does belong on Wikibooks.  I would like to discuss our options with some policy experts before we proceed.  Should we post on the [[WP:NOT]] talk page?  Village pump?  Request for comment? --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 22:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and entries about knots in other encyclopedias explain or show how to tie them. The how-to clause of WP:NOT is a special case of the "indiscriminate collection" section. Explaining in a knot article how to tie that knot is no more "indiscriminate" than having the article in the first place. The purpose of WP:NOT is to keep the project directed toward making an encyclopedia, not to destroy the usefulness of encyclopedic articles. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 01:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

: I agree that the method of tying a knot is integral to a description of it, I just want to make sure that we keep within the written policy, or else it may get out of hand and some deletionist will come by and have all of the content removed.  Keeping the policy in mind will prevent having to rewrite in the future. [[User:Dddstone|Dddstone]] 02:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::What if we ask for an exception? --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 18:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys, this isn't a bureacracy. Don't worry about the possibility of someone messing up knot articles because of a weird policy interpretation until it happens. And certainly don't do it yourself in anticipation. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 21:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:I'm not suggesting a big bureaucratic hullabaloo.  I'm just suggesting that we point out our situation in advance, so that we don't shock the policy nuts later on.  I'm actually surprised that they haven't torn the knot pages apart already. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 21:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I added [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Knots#Writing about methods and usage]] to the draft guidelines.  --[[User:Dfred|Dfred]] 18:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

==Fishing knots==
Very bad idea to merge [[Fishing knots]] into [[Knots]]. Once the Fishing knots article is done it will be too large for merging, believe me. [[User:CyberAnth|CyberAnth]] 10:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
:Can we get an approximate date (range) on when it will be at least stub class? − [[User:Twas Now|Twas Now]] 03:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

==Knot Theory==
Regarding this sentence from the intro: 
<blockquote>Knots have been the subject of interest both for their ancient origins, common use, and the mathematical implications of knot theory.</blockquote>
The knots in knot theory are different from the knots spoken of in this article. The mathematical "knots" refer to an abstract object that looks like a string joined at both ends. But the thing is that this article has no mention, and probably shouldn't have any mention, of such knots. (such knots are rarely used in practical knot tying). And the study of knot theory I'm pretty sure was not motivated by practical knot tying, and has nothing to do with it. Why mathematicians are interested in it I don't know, I think its something abstract, and was only called knot theory because of a very superficial resemblance. So I don't think knot theory is really at all related to this article, and the mention doesn't really belong. What does everyon think?[[User:Brentt|Brentt]] 19:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:Why should an article called "Knot" only discuss issues related to practical knot tying?  I agree that mathematical knot theory should only occupy a small portion of this article, but a mathematical knot is a type of knot, after all.  I think that the brief mention in the lead and the tiny paragraph toward the end are fine as is.  [[User:VectorPosse|VectorPosse]] 19:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:mathematical knots, sufficiently "nice" ones at least, are in fact knots pretty much in the sense of this article. so to say "it was only called knot theory because of a very superficial resemblance" is not quite right. however i do agree with Brentt that the remarks on knot theory in the current version of the article looks very much out of place. to go from rope splicing to a, however brief, discussion of the Alexander polynomial makes for an abrupt and awkward transition. maybe one can replace the remarks with a see also link to the knot theory article. [[User:Mct mht|Mct mht]] 05:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added a section on "Physical theory of friction knots."--[[Special:Contributions/75.83.64.6|75.83.64.6]] ([[User talk:75.83.64.6|talk]]) 01:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
:Well done. [[User:Arbitrarily0|<span style='color:black'><b><u><i><big>A</big>rbitrarily<big>0</big></i></u></b></span>]]&nbsp;<sup><b>([[User talk:Arbitrarily0|<span style="font-variant: small-caps; color:#FF4500;">talk</span>]])</b></sup> 03:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

== Most useable knots ==

The following is a list of the most usable knots. This list of knots are a simplification of all other existing survival knots and can be helpful in survival situations and in low-tech construction (eg in the developing world). The list is assembled by comparing the knots used in survival books as "The SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the Wild, in Any Climate, on Land or at Sea" by John Lofty Wiseman <ref>[http://www.amazon.com/SAS-Survival-Handbook-Survive-Climate/dp/0060578793/ref=pd_sim_b_1 SAS Survival Handbook]</ref>, "The Survival Handbook" by Peter Darman <ref>[http://www.amazon.com/Survival-Handbook-Peter-Darman/dp/185367236X Survival Handbook]</ref> and "Go Sailing" by Steve Sleight <ref>[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Go-Sail-DVD-Guides/dp/0756619459/ref=sr_1_4/202-6044909-0331010?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214815670&sr=1-4 GoSail book]</ref>, aswell as a number of other survival books. Careful selection has been made by including knots for all purposes (stopper knots for permanent fixing, hitches for dragging loads, easy removable knots, ...), and by examening whether the knots are not too difficult to lay and whether they can be used in several situations. As the list is heavily simplified, it could help people remember them when it really counts (critical moments).

* the [[Double overhand knot]]
* the [[Reef knot]]
* the [[Double sheet bend]]
* the [[Double half hitch]]
* the [[Bowline]]
* the [[Clove hitch]]]
* the [[Diagonal lashing]]
* the [[Round lashing]]

<!--[[Category:Ropes]]
[[Category:Knots]]
[[Category:Ropework]]
[[Category:Sailing]]
[[Category:Scoutcraft]]
[[Category:Construction]]
[[Category:Survival skills]]
-->

Please include this list into the article.
thanks;

[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] ([[User talk:KVDP|talk]]) 14:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:I've added three of them. The reef knot is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 17:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::Okay, I've added some more. I do think we should have a practical section on basic everyday knots. However, I put in the harness knot—would the [[Alpine butterfly knot]] be better? [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 22:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::I don't think it's accurate to say that "the reef knot is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged." I use it to tie my shoes -- is that dangerous? The ability to intentionally capsize and release it while it's under load is a useful feature, in situations where you need that feature.--[[Special:Contributions/75.83.64.6|75.83.64.6]] ([[User talk:75.83.64.6|talk]]) 05:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== looking for a knot ... ==

I learned a great knot at a military show in Ouagadougou, but have since forgotten it and wonder if anyone has any ideas as to what it might have been. 

I used it to hang my mosquito net when sleeping outdoors biking cross-country. I could throw a loop over an out-of-reach branch, tie the knot, clinch it up, and in the morning simply pull on the free end of the now out-of-reach knot and the rope would fall to the ground. Very very handy. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 18:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

==Midshipman's Hitch==
The page says "Midshipman's Hitch (also known as a Tautline Hitch) Used when the length of the line needs to be adjusted" - However, Admirilaty Manual of Seamnship Vol I, HMSO, London, 1964 p. 160 states that it is a hitch for lashing a rope to a hook.  Specific text says ''An alternative to the Blackwall Hitch, preferred if the rope is greasy. Made by first forming a Blackwell hitch and then taking the underneath part and placing over the bill of the hook.''  Diagram is included in the description.  Certainly does not appear to be used for adjusting the lenght of rope!    [[User:Farawayman|Farawayman]] ([[User talk:Farawayman|talk]]) 09:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== German wiki ==

Some knots covered in German wiki that we don't seem to have. Could simply translate and borrow the images:

:[[:de:Zeisingstek]]
:[[:de:Anbindeknoten]]
:[[:de:Bergrettungsknoten]]
:[[:de:Wurfknoten]]
:[[:de:Fallreepsknoten]]
:[[:de:Jansik-Knoten]]
:[[:de:Kopfschlag]]
:[[:de:Marlschlag]]
:[[:de:Seilspanner]]
:[[:de:Rosenknoten]]
:[[:de:Kettenstek]]
:[[:de:Bootsmannsmaatknoten]]
:[[:de:Doppelte Rettungsschlinge]]
:[[:de:Gardaschlinge]]
:[[:de:Führerknoten]]
:[[:de:Höhlenknoten]]
:[[:de:Lassoknoten]]
:[[:de:Neunerknoten]]
:[[:de:Paketknoten]]
:[[:de:Warenhausschlinge]]
:[[:de:Zweistrang-Bändselknoten]]
:[[:de:Strickleiterknoten]] (Eng. mis-ID'd)

They also have a lot of good photos, though some remain copyrighted. I've added some that were on Commons, but don't have time to move the rest over. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 22:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

== Categorization of Knots ==
I think the 'Categories' of knots on this page is too cumbersome and can be greatly simplified as below.  You'll recognize text copied from the article page and the few entries I've added by the lack of descriptive text.

===Basic Knots===
* '''Stopper knots''' Stopper - A knot tied to hold a line through a hole. List of stopper knots.
* '''Binding knots''' Binding - A knot that restricts object(s) by making multiple winds. List of binding knots.
* '''Joining Knots''' or "Bends" Bend - A knot uniting two lines (for knots joining two ends of the same line, see binding knots or loops). List of bends.
* '''Attaching Knots''' or "Hitches" Hitch - A knot tied to a post, cable, ring, or spar. List of hitch knots.
* '''Loop Knots''' Loop - A knot used to create a closed circle in a line. List of loop knots.
* '''Running Knots'''  or Nooses(?) <del>Slip</del> (or Running Knots) - A knot tied with a hitch around one of its parts. In contrast, a loop is closed with a bend. While a slip knot can be closed, a loop remains the same size. List of slip knots.

===Decorative & Fancy Knots===
* '''Decorative knot '''  A complex knot exhibiting repeating patterns often constructed around and enhancing an object. List of decorative knots.
* '''Trick '''  A knot that is used as part of a magic trick, a joke, or a puzzle. List of trick knots.
* '''Plait (or Braid)'''  A number of lines interwoven in a simple regular pattern. List of plait knots.
* '''Sennit ''' A number of lines interwoven in a complex pattern. See also Chain sinnet.
* '''Lanyard knots'''
* '''Button knots'''
* '''Globe knots'''
* '''Turk's heads'''
* '''Mats'''
* '''Chains'''
* '''Plaits and Braids'''

Thanks to Des Pawson and Geoffrey Budsworth and various other authors (notably NOT Ashley) for the basic knots and decorative knots breakdown.

===Ropework===
These strike me more in the ropework line than particularly knot-centric.
* '''Coil '''  Knots used to tie up lines for storage. List of coil knots. Another handy coil is here.
* '''Lashing''' A knot used to hold (usually) poles together. List of lashing knots.
* '''Seizing''' A knot used to hold two lines or two parts of the same line together. List of seizing knots.
* '''Splice'''  A knot formed by interweaving strands of rope rather than whole lines. More time-consuming but usually stronger than simple knots. List of splices.
* '''Whipping''' A binding knot used to prevent another line from fraying. 

[[User:ForemastJack|ForemastJack]] ([[User talk:ForemastJack|talk]]) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

== Knots in nature ==

Mention something about [http://www.google.com/search?q=knots+in+nature knots in nature]. [[User:Jidanni|Jidanni]] ([[User talk:Jidanni|talk]]) 00:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

== from merged article ==

I've deleted the last link:

[http://www.highton-ridley.co.uk/monochrome/pages/rope-knot.html A rope knot can be a thing of beauty too]

Just because it's a picture of a knot, it doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Much less when it leads to a store where the photographer is selling it. It looks like an attempt to generate views/sales.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/200.68.90.97|200.68.90.97]] ([[User talk:200.68.90.97|talk]]) 09:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Should this perhaps be merged with [[Knot]]?  There's quite an overlap of information... --[[User:Mordemur|mordemur]] 06:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:*I have only just come across this page. I have a mild intrest in the field and would request some time to work the Article over before any Merge is conducted. [[User:Exit2DOS2000|<span style="background-color:#ddcef2;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">Exit2DOS2000</span>]]<small><small><sup>•[[User Talk:Exit2DOS2000|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Exit2DOS2000|C]]•</sup></small></small> 09:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Knot]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=718239917 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.animatedknots.com/reliability.php?

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 10:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

== Use by hagfish ==

I just added a bit about that and now see it also at [[Overhand_knot#In_nature]]. Should this be in this article, and can that section be expanded? Are primates or birds known to make knots? [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 22:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

See also: [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Animals making knots]] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&oldid=761830310 permlink])

[[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 01:52, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

== Capsize, flip, flype ==

The three terms are described in DOI: 10.1016/j.jamcollsurg.2007.05.016 https://kundoc.com/pdf-how-capsizing-flipping-and-flyping-of-traditional-knots-can-result-in-new-endosc.html — [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 21:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

==Suggest merge October 2020==
[[History of knotting]] is very short, lightly referenced, and could be better put in context here. --[[User:Wtshymanski|Wtshymanski]] ([[User talk:Wtshymanski|talk]]) 18:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

== What about the not-so-strictest sense? ==

{{quote|A knot may also refer, '''in the strictest sense''', to a stopper or knob at the end of a rope to keep that end from slipping through a grommet or eye.}}

What's the point of this? It seems to imply that these are not knots by some definition, but then fails to explain why or how at any point in the article. [[User:WP Ludicer|WP Ludicer]] ([[User talk:WP Ludicer|talk]]) 00:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
:It implies that ''only'' such stopper knots are "true" knots by some definition. A bend is a bend, not a knot, in that sense; a hitch is a hitch, a loop is a loop, the venerable square "knot" is a binding [complication of cordage], and so on. Ashley may have more to say about it; finding a clarifying passage may take some digging. [[User:Just plain Bill|Just plain Bill]] ([[User talk:Just plain Bill|talk]]) 03:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

:OK, here is a quote from Ashley, p.12:
::The word ''knot'' has three distinct meanings in common use. In the broadest sense it applies to all complications in cordage, except accidental ones, such as snarls and kinks, and complications adapted for storage, such as coils, hanks, skeins, balls, etc.
::In its second sense it does not include ''bends, hitches, splices,'' and ''sinnets,'' and in its third and narrowest sense the term applies only to a ''knob'' tied in a rope to prevent unreeving, to provide a handhold, or (in small material only) to prevent fraying.
:<s>Make of it what you will.</s> regards, [[User:Just plain Bill|Just plain Bill]] ([[User talk:Just plain Bill|talk]]) 15:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
:Just added refs & quotes to lead. cheers, [[User:Just plain Bill|Just plain Bill]] ([[User talk:Just plain Bill|talk]]) 23:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

==Intentional or accidental==
The entire content of this article is about intentional knots, but the dictionary definition of a knot applies to intentional, man-made knots, as well as unintentional knots, like a knot in your hair, natural knots, such as a knot in your muscles, or a knot in a tree, or symbolic uses, such as a knotty problem, or knots in your stomach.

If there's no other feedback, I will adjust the wording of the opening line to indicate that this is one usage of the word knot, so that it's not confused as the only meaning of the word knot.--Ryan (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

----  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ryanrands|Ryanrands]] ([[User talk:Ryanrands#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ryanrands|contribs]]) 21:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The hatnote includes a link to [[Knot (disambiguation)]] which mentions muscle knots and tree knots. Might be useful to draft your proposed adjustment here in this talk page setion, and see what feedback shows up. [[User:Just plain Bill|Just plain Bill]] ([[User talk:Just plain Bill|talk]]) 22:45, 5 July 2022 (UTC)