View source for Talk:Joseon

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== population ==

This wiki article's record of Joseon's population is incorrect.

The official position of Korean academia on the population of Joseon in the 15th to 19th centuries is as follows.

http://contents.nahf.or.kr/item/level.do?levelId=edeah.d_0004_0030_0020_0030#self

I think the population related part should be restored to the old content edited before 16:16, 7 May 2023‎.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sega23days|Sega23days]] ([[User talk:Sega23days#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sega23days|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== 1897 or 1910? ==

Encyclopedia Britannica says it ended in 1910. Which is correct? – <span style="font-family: Georgia;">'''''[[User:Illegitimate Barrister|Illegitimate Barrister]]'''''</span> ([[User_talk:Illegitimate_Barrister|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Illegitimate Barrister|contribs]]), 00:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

:Depends. The Joseon "dynasty" ended in 1910 with the annexation of Korea. However, I think it's safe to say Joseon ended as a Korean state in 1897 with the birth of the Korean Empire. The two terms are used interchangeably in Korean sources. -- [[User:00101984hjw|00101984hjw]] ([[User talk:00101984hjw|talk]]) 00:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

== The restoration of original research by Antwerpant ==

{{ping|Sunnyediting99}} Regarding {{diff3|1241566363|this edit}}:
#The first sentence on {{tq|The Chinese tributary system was a largely-symbolic Confucian world order...}} is an overly long and general statement for an endnote, especially when it's an endnote for a link to the [[Tributary system of China]] article.
#The part {{tq|their international status cannot be considered 'client states'.}} is taken directly from [[WP:OR|original research]] added by ban-evading {{noping|Antwerpant}} in their own words {{diff3|1063883063|here}}.
#The other part of the edit deletes material that is directly from Duke University Press and Oxford University Press sources that specifically talk about Joseon's status.
— <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">[[User:MarkH21|MarkH<sub><small>21</small></sub>]]<sup>[[User talk:MarkH21|<span style="background-color:navy; color:white;">talk</span>]]</sup></span> 10:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

:I see I didn't realize that Antwerpant was banned here, that said, I do think the research used here by the edits that followed are a bit incorrect on terming Joseon and the other tributaries of Ming and Qing China are "vassals" of the Son of Heaven given that the tributary system is more complex then that. The controversy here arises from the fact that from Chinese scholars (and the historical perspective of Chinese dynasties), Joseon and other tributaries were "vassals" but from ther tributaries perspectives as well as that of many modern scholars especially Western ones, is that the tributary system was far more loose than vassalage. 
:Would you be alright if I then proposed different scholarship on this topic? Here are some sources
:Lee JY. China's Hegemony: Four Hundred Years of East Asian Domination. Columbia University Press; 2016 Dec 31.
:"The "tribute" entailed a foreign court sending envoys and exotic products to the Chinese emperor. The emperor then gave the envoys gifts in return and permitted them to trade in China. Presenting tribute involved theatrical subordination but usually not political subordination"
:It also is talked about in another page as well.
:[[Vassal state#Controversy on Status of Joseon]] 
:"Yuan Shikai argued that Korea was a dependent "vassal state"; Owen N. Denny argued that Korea was an independent "tributary state". William W. Rockhill said that calling Korea a vassal state was "misleading". According to Rockhill: "The tribute sent to Peking by all the 'vassal states,' and also by the Tibetans, and the Aboriginal tribes of Western China, is solely a quid pro quo for the privilege of trading with the Chinese under extraordinarily favorable conditions." [[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] ([[User talk:Sunnyediting99|talk]]) 13:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
::Hey just wanted to follow up on this [[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] ([[User talk:Sunnyediting99|talk]]) 16:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:MarkH21|MarkH21]] I like the edits, though I think your previous edits that were the following much more accurately captured the relationship: 
:::The diplomatic system of East Asia was hierarchical, lacking in equality.[12]  Joseon Korea enjoyed a high level of independence and sovereignty in domestic and foreign affairs while ritually subservient to the Ming and Qing dynasties of China. However, the Qing dynasty was directly involved in the affairs of Joseon from the Imo Incident of 1882 until the Treaty of Shimonoseki of 1895.[14] [[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] ([[User talk:Sunnyediting99|talk]]) 13:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
::Using tributary in place of vassal would be less controversial since that seems to be the most used nomenclature, although that does not exclude real political authority in some cases such as Tibet. The Qing and Ming collected tribute from peoples that were [[tusi]] as well but they were most definitely under some form of direct political authority from the dynasty. Joseon does not seem to fit that template and did not have direct political interference from the Qing  until after 1882. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
:::To avoid making a long infobox endnote even longer (this is not where details belong), I would propose just the deletion the {{tq|Despite being a vassal of the Son of Heaven}} without new material. So there is a sentence mentioning that the Chinese dynasties viewed all of its tributary relationships as an emperor-vassal relationship (generic statement) followed by the sentence on Joseon's high level of independence and sovereignty. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;">[[User:MarkH21|MarkH<sub><small>21</small></sub>]]<sup>[[User talk:MarkH21|<span style="background-color:navy; color:white;">talk</span>]]</sup></span>

== Requested move 5 October 2024 ==

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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Vpab15|Vpab15]] ([[User talk:Vpab15|talk]]) 08:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
----

[[:Joseon]] → {{no redirect|Chosŏn}} – I'm proposing this mainly to poll opinions in the manner of an [[WP:RFC]], as well as to try and illustrate how our new MOS works. If you're a regular on any Korea topics, I encourage you to think about what I'm discussing here because similar principles will apply to many other moves that may happen in the near future.

Context:
# "Chosŏn" is the [[McCune–Reischauer]] ("MR") romanization of 조선. "Joseon" is using [[Revised Romanization of Korean|Revised Romanization]] ("RR").
# We recently rewrote [[MOS:KO]] and [[WP:NCKO]]. As part of this, MR is now recommended for all pre-1945 topics. Before the rewrite, RR was recommended for pre-1945 topics (except, confusingly, for people names lol...).

Thoughts:
# Relevant policies: [[WP:COMMONNAME]], [[WP:DIVIDEDUSE]], and [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]]. These policies are also the foundation for MOS:KO and WP:NCKO.
# Coverage in RS:
#* MR and "Chosŏn" are used by almost all Korean history academic journals ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Korea/Romanization_of_Korean_on_Wikipedia#List_of_style_guidelines_for_Korean_studies_journals][https://www.escienceediting.org/journal/view.php?doi=10.6087/kcse.100]).
#* In my experience, practice in books is more divided. Well-respected and widely used history books almost universally use MR and "Chosŏn". All other books (including less reliable pop culture books about Korea) seem to use RR and "Joseon". This divided use can be somewhat seen in the close race on [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Joseon%2CChos%C5%8Fn&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=true Ngrams], which measures mentions in books. However, if we prioritize the most reliable sources, this still leans towards MR.
#* News and pop culture tend to use "Joseon", like ''[[Poong, the Joseon Psychiatrist]]''.
#* Together, this suggests that academia uses "Chosŏn", but average people may use "Joseon".
# '''Since this article was created 21 years ago in 2003, it has never gone by "Chosŏn". Moving it to that has seemingly never even been requested.''' I think this clearly suggests that Wikipedia editors have a preference for this spelling.
#* Wikipedia's use of the spelling also possibly influenced global use of the spelling as well.
#* Oh, and it's also annoying to type the diacritic letter (ŏ); it's frustratingly not easily available on Mac, PC, or iPhones.

In short, there's basically three relevant groups here: academic historians (prefer MR), average people around the world (RR), and Wikipedia editors (RR). '''I think this move should be decided by how much you want to cater towards each of these groups'''.

I want to hear other arguments or want others to weigh in. I'm actually leaning towards "Joseon" being more appropriate. I think Wikipedia is meant to be used by the average person, and clearly both average people and Wikipedia editors prefer that spelling. But I'm leaving open the possibility for "Chosŏn" to happen. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 05:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
:<small>Note: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject East Asia|WikiProject East Asia]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Former countries|WikiProject Former countries]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council|WikiProject Council]], and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea|WikiProject Korea]] have been notified of this discussion. [[User:98Tigerius|<span style="color:#FFBE98; text-shadow:0.1em 0.2em 0.1em #FFF8E7">'''98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:98Tigerius|<span style="color:#FFBE98; text-shadow:0.1em 0.2em 0.1em #FFF8E7">'''[𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]'''</span>]]</sup> 08:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''' Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. I'd also recommend a speedy close as the nominator themselves admitted they do not actually want to move the article. What they are looking for is a... y'know... [[WP:RFC]], not a move discussion. (or better yet, just a simple talk page comment because RFCs are used in the case of intractable issues). [[User:Zxcvbnm|ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ]] ([[User talk:Zxcvbnm|ᴛ]]) 12:34, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
*:Oppose speedy close. I'm leaving open the possibility of the move actually happening because I'm not sure of what the best thing to do is. Citing common name alone tells me you didn't really understand this post. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 18:12, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
*::I understand the distinction you're making (it's the same <em>name</em> morphemically, but rendered differently) I don't think that's quite fair. In general, there's almost never a meaningful distinction to make between the two in these discussions. [[MOS:ROMANIZATION]] specifically says {{xt|If a particular romanization of the subject's name is most common in English, that form should be used. Otherwise, the romanization of names should adhere to a particular widely used system for the language in question.}} If I may, the changes to [[MOS:KO]] seems analogous to [[MOS:ZH]] in terms of this: we use Hanyu Pinyin by default, except when there's a clear COMMONNAME exception (e.g. [[Sun Tzu]]) <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 01:18, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*:An RM seems to be appropriate here, and the evidence contradicts the status quo being common name. As someone not familiar with Korean history, I've never seen the Choson spelling, but that's not reason to oppose. I'm leaning towards support due to [[WP:Common name]] based on the evidence provided, although prevalence in Korean language sources is irrelevant for common name due to [[WP:Use English]] (note that per [[WP:UE]], Korean words used predominantly in English language sources become English). On Google Scholar, Joseon gives 54,500 hits, Chosŏn 22,600. While [[WP:CRITERIA]] are acceded by common name, you could argue Joseon is more recognisable. All this makes me lean towards '''weak support''' because I love ngrams [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 18:49, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]] - Though Chosŏn has a slight advantage in books/academia, "Joseon" is ''by far'' the most common romanization in English language general usage, news articles, popular culture, etc. I'd argue that moving the article to "Chosŏn" would violate the [[WP:ASTONISH|principle of least astonishment]]; the majority of "regular people" would be searching for the article on "Joseon" and would be surprised when we redirect them somewhere else, to a different word with ~fancy~ diacritic marks that isn't what they expected to see. [[User:RachelTensions|RachelTensions]] ([[User talk:RachelTensions|talk]]) 01:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*:Chosŏn doesn't have a slight advantage in academia; if you read my OP my analysis has it that it's the overwhelming practice. Less rigorous books, usually pop culture or about modern South Korea, use "Joseon". So this is more a split between academia and the general public. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 01:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*::So it's academia versus everyone else. We're writing an encyclopedia for "everyone else", not academics. [[User:RachelTensions|RachelTensions]] ([[User talk:RachelTensions|talk]]) 01:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::Mind the tone btw; it reads a bit sarcastic and aggressive when really I mostly agree with your point.
*:::One reason I made this post is to illustrate that these situations are not straightforward and there isn't a simple solution for everything. I've spent the last three months thinking about these topics every day, and have seen discussions from the past 20 years where people rushed into these debates with hard-set opinions and assumptions that end up conflicting with the hard-set opinions of others. It's not simple.
*:::"Joseon" is lucky because it does appear in pop culture a lot. But for many Korean history articles, the topics basically never show up in pop culture and only in history books that would use MR. Should we use RR or MR or those? Not simple and deserves thought. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 01:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose for now'''{{snd}}I appreciate this being posted for the reasons given in the OP, and it does beg one to reflect on what sources we consider when evaluating [[WP:NC]]—there are many cases where we simply do not use <em>the</em> most common name (e.g. [[Influenza]] or applications of [[WP:NPOVNAME]]) and I think sometimes editors lose sight of the four naming criteria other than recognizability. As it stands though, I think it's correct to sample the broadest base when naming historical polities. It's possible the systematic rendering will be most suited in the future, but not yet.
:<span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 01:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
:{{tq|Wikipedia's use of the spelling also possibly influenced global use of the spelling as well.}}
:I agree with this. I suspect that the reason "Joseon" is common among average people is that they simply copied whatever is used on Wikipedia. Average people usually check Wikipedia to get some simple/basic knowledge about the topic.
:So in this case, I believe we should be careful about including what average people use.
:(As a side note, I get the impression that there was a tendency to favor RR among editors in the early years of Wikipedia.) [[Special:Contributions/172.56.232.193|172.56.232.193]] ([[User talk:172.56.232.193|talk]]) 02:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
::I somewhat agree, although I'd argue people are really likely to encounter "Joseon" through Korean dramas nowadays, even moreso than through Wikipedia.
::Some additional context to this; RR was brand new around the time Wikipedia was first created. If [[WP:COMMONNAME]] existed at the time (I remember reading that it didn't), I don't think there could have been a convincing case for RR; it would have almost certainly been MR. But now we're here. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 02:34, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
::Our own influence, while theoretically a potentially valid dimension to consider, is not really one we're able to measure or consider. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 02:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per COMMONNAME.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 01:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' per COMMONNAME.  I'm a little suspicious that even academic sources favor Chosŏn - maybe those that are strictly using the Korean word, but this is pretty well-known in English.  [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 03:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
*:I provided sources for my claims. The only one that's harder to provide sources on is for books, but even then it's really not that hard to look up the major Korean history books to see what the romanization systems in use are. [[User:seefooddiet|seefooddiet]] ([[User talk:seefooddiet|talk]]) 04:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Clear common name in English-language sources. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 11:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
*:Evidence? [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 12:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
*::Evidence that it isn't? -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::Yeah [[User:Kowal2701|Kowal2701]] ([[User talk:Kowal2701|talk]]) 15:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
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== Changing Flag of Joseon ==

The flag that is in use for Joseon is currently {{File:Flag of Korea (1893).svg}}. The source that is listed on the Wikimedia Common's page has a couple of problems:

1. The actual flag is not found on that website. I went through previous versions of the website on the Wayback machine, but there were 10+ years of history and I was unable to find the original file.

2. The file/source is not an academic source. The flag seems to be from a flag-posting blog. I do not believe it meets [[WP:RS]] requirements.

There are multiple competing versions of the Taegeukgi floating around on Wikipedia Commons, so I consulted the Korean National Archives: [https://theme.archives.go.kr/next/symbolKorea/transitionFlag01.do] [https://theme.archives.go.kr/next/symbolKorea/moreViewFlag01.do]

The version currently in use for [[Joseon]] is not represented. The closest resemblance would be the Owen N. Denny Taegeukgi (found on link 2 above), but the Taegeuk spiral is in the opposite direction. Without proper sourcing for the flag, it should be changed to a different variant. The Flags of Maritime Nations version, located at {{File:Flag of Korea (1882–1910).svg}} and found on both Korean Archive sources above seems like the most definitive source that we can find that are also referenced by [[WP:RS]] sources and produced "officially". ''[[User:MetropolitanIC|<span style="background:#8150cc; color:#FFF; padding:2px 4px 1px 4px;">MetropolitanIC</span>]] '' ([[User talk:MetropolitanIC|💬]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/MetropolitanIC|📝]]) 05:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

:Thank you very much for explaining. I support any well-sourced, representative specimen. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 05:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

== multiple names ==

@[[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] and anyone else: given there is a preference for multiple forms and multiple names in these infoboxes, could we consider arranging different forms as horizontal lists, saving as much vertical space as possible?
{{Infobox former country
| conventional_long_name = {{hlist|Joseon|{{langn|ko|조선}}}}
| native_name            = <hr />{{hlist|class=inline|{{langn|ko|고려국}} | {{langn|ko|高麗國}} }}&ensp;{{nobold|(1392–1393)}}<hr />{{hlist |class=inline| {{langn|ko|조선국}} | {{lang|ko|朝鮮國}} }}&ensp;{{nobold|(1393–1894)}}<hr />{{hlist|class=inline| {{langn|ko|대조선국}} | {{lang|ko|大朝鮮國}}}}&ensp;{{nobold|(1894–1897)<br />}}
}} <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

:I'm open to this, what are other peoples thoughts? [[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] ([[User talk:Sunnyediting99|talk]]) 14:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:I like it; it's much more compact and gets the point across. ''[[User:MetropolitanIC|<span style="background:#8150cc; color:#FFF; padding:2px 4px 1px 4px;">MetropolitanIC</span>]] '' ([[User talk:MetropolitanIC|💬]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/MetropolitanIC|📝]]) 02:21, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:Why not just delete the first and third names and create a section exclusively on names? 고려국 and 대조선국 seem a bit peripheral to be on an infobox considering they were used for less then five years. Moreover, I think there times when multiple names were used simultaneously by the Joseon state. Might have to research more on this one. -- [[User:00101984hjw|00101984hjw]] ([[User talk:00101984hjw|talk]]) 22:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::I would strongly prefer this, but others tend to have a higher desire for name forms in infoboxes than I. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 22:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Who do you mean by others? I know there was quite a debate going on in the [[Silla]] talk page regarding similar issues, but that one wasn't about whether multiple "|native_names" should be labeled on the infobox. 
:::(Also, just fyi, but "조선국" may not be the correct rendering of "medieval" Hangul. According to [https://ko.wikisource.org/wiki/%EB%B3%B4%EB%B9%99%EC%82%AC_%EC%8B%A0%EC%9E%84%EC%9E%A5 this] primary source on korean wikisource it may have been "됴선국") -- [[User:00101984hjw|00101984hjw]] ([[User talk:00101984hjw|talk]]) 22:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I think im open to potentially eliminating it and just having a section for names, it's just that the country technically had multiple phases of having multiple names which i think is a bit unique compared to some other states that usually at max have like one name change.  [[User:Sunnyediting99|Sunnyediting99]] ([[User talk:Sunnyediting99|talk]]) 22:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::Which would be much better if well-addressed in a section of its own rather than labeled all on the infobox with little elaboration, right? Which is why I believe it would be best if we only reserved the single most commonly used name on the infobox? -- [[User:00101984hjw|00101984hjw]] ([[User talk:00101984hjw|talk]]) 22:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)