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== Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2020 {{edit semi-protected|James Cook|answered=yes}} ==

== Name of "controversy" section ==

Seems like "Controversy" by itself is a bit lazy:  it does not tell readers what the section is about.  What if there were 2 sections about 2 different controversies?   Better is a title describing that topic, which revolves around colonialism & impact with indigenous peoples.  Title should be more neutral an not lead readers in a particular direction.  See essay [[Wikipedia:Controversial articles]].  ''"Colonialism"'' is brief and to the point, or  ''"Controversy related to colonialism"'' or  ''"Impact on indigenous peoples"''   or similar?  Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:06, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
:I fully agree. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 00:40, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
:I don't mind a more descriptive heading but I'm not sure Colonialism is the right one because the issues discussed aren't just colonialism but also violent encounters and anniversary celebrations and protests. Other related issues might also arise. There is a background to this because of the tortuous discussions over how this issue is covered in the lead, resulting in the current wording which I find too convoluted. My understanding is that the Cook protests are more to do with the concept of "Decolonisation" rather than colonialism per se. In other words, even though Cook did not colonise anything and did not even advocate the colonisation of the lands he visited, some see the removal or modification of monuments to him as part of a process of decolonisation of culture. I also think the focus of this section should be on the public debate and protests which exploded during the Cook 250 anniversary. A section on Colonialism will inevitably evolve into a discussion of academic debates on Cook and Colonialism. This is fine, but not what I think this section should be focused on. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:39, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::The protests are not part of Cooks' story.  Anything we include about them needs to be clearly separated from content about Cook. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 01:59, 24 May 2025 (UTC) himself
:::(1) I think you might find it difficult to find a concise alternative section title that is indisputably neutral. <br/>(2) The word "controversy" means that people have different views, strongly held, which are expressed in public (see OED defn. 2a and 2b). Surely that is the situation here, so the word is an accurate description.<br/>(3) If there were to be more than one controversy over Cook's life, the section titles would be "Controversy over [name of issue 1]" and "Controversy over [name of issue 2]".  [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 18:24, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
{{od}}And, off topic, I think the balance of the section could be improved by citing more sources which think that treating Cook as the focus of blame for colonialism is "absurd, anachronistic and unhistorical" ([[Frank McLynn|McLynn, Frank]]. ''Captain Cook: Master of the Seas'' (p. 417). Yale University Press.) In writing a section on such things, it is probably easier to find those proposing that Cook was controversial, whilst those who defend are less obvious and, chronologically, always come later as there is nothing for contradict before the original accusations are made. Additionally, the original complainants are more likely to be reported in the press whilst their opponents may tend to be more academic in nature. I wonder if that has happened here. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 18:48, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== FRS  post-nominal ==

Per [[MOS:POSTNOM]] and [[ MOS:LEADCLUTTER]] , the post-nominal ''FRS  ''cannot be in very first sentence:  {{green|When the subject of an article has received honours or appointments issued either by the subject's state of citizenship or residence, or by a widely recognized organization that reliable sources regularly associate with the subject, post-nominal letters may be included in any part of the article other than the lead sentence.}}

Apparently there was an RfC on this issue in 2023:  [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2023_archive#Proposal:_Moving_post-nominals_from_lead_sentences_to_article_bodies]] 

Any suggestions where it should go?  Or can it be simply removed from 1st sentence because  it is already in two places (besides the 1st sentence):
# "FRS" is   in the top-right in the InfoBox.  
# Section on 2nd voyage has the honor spelled out:  {{green|His fame extended beyond the Admiralty; he was made a''' Fellow of the Royal Society '''and awarded the...}}  
[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:34, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== Mention "collier" preference? ==

Cook used collier-style ships in many (all?) of his voyages.  I recall reading that he preferred that style and even specified that design for his 2nd and/or 3rd voyage.  That may be worth a mention in the article.  

E.g. Here is a BBC source: {{green|Cook's ship, the Endeavour, was a bluff-bowed Whitby collier chosen for her strength, shallow draught, and storage capacity. Although the ship was to change, the type did not; the Resolution of the second and third voyages was of the same build, and even came from the same shipyard as the Endeavour, to whose qualities, wrote Cook, 'those on board owe their Preservation. Hence I was enabled to prosecute Discoveries in those Seas so much longer than any other Man ever did or could do.'}}  from https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_01.shtml 

Does anyone have thoughts on adding info about his preference for colliers? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:37, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:It's a bit specialised for a general article on Cook, but I think it's worth a footnote. Do you have access to Peter Moore's Endeavour? From memory, he discusses Cook and colliers. I would prefer a citation to an academic study rather than a BBC article. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:15, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::Here's a [[iarchive:endeavourshipatt0000moor|link]]. You can't borrow the book, but if you do a search for "collier" it will preview the relevant text and pages. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:30, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Dipping into Moore's book, I am a little concerned about his understanding of ship-building. For instance, on page 55, he talks about construction with "properly seasoned timber": ships of this time were built from green timber as the shipwrights' tools available could not readily cut seasoned oak. Also of concern, on the same page, is his description of carvel construction, with the framework being built first, followed by the planking. This is not necessarily the method used in 1764, an older sequence may well have been used: some framing, followed by some planking, then another phase of framing, etc. An author who boldly states the modern carvel sequence seems to illustrate a lack of knowledge. (Even the mid-19th century English collier, the wreck SL4 discussed by Jonathan Adams in his ''A Maritime Archaeology of Ships'', has many {{nautical term|floating futtock}}s, where the frame elements are not fastened to each other but only to the planking, so suggesting the older construction sequence. Adams concludes that SL4, a collier built in a small yard of the northeast of England, used the same construction sequence, with great similarities with, for instance, [[Mary Rose]]. It is unlikely that the builders of Endeavour did anything different.) That makes me hesitant to believe Moore on other points made by this author. Does he have any relevant qualifications? [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 17:56, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:Issues to research in answer to this:
:Surely not Cook’s choice for first voyage.
:Cost (low)
:Robust construction 
:Large cargo capacity for size
:Ready availability (there were lots of them)
:Shallow draft for tonnage
:I may be able to deal with these points, with references, later today.

I would be hesitant about using the BBC as the sole source on this aspect.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 06:07, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] I think our comments crossed here. The Peter Moore book is worth looking at. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:17, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::I have other sources that cover the same subject, but I am about 5 hours drive away from them right now. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 07:05, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

{{od}}Cook was not involved in the choice of Endeavour:<br/>{{tq|The choice of ship had been made before he}} [Cook] {{tq|was appointed to the captaincy, despite the certainty with which some writers insist that Cook ‘must have’ had a major hand in her selection.}} The explanation goes on to discuss a sloop (HMS ''Tryal'') was a likely candidate, but she would not be ready for sea before June. HMS ''Rose'', an "elderly frigate" was the next ship considered, but could not carry sufficient stores for a 3 year voyage. The Admiralty {{tq|then turned to consideration of an east-coast collier or ‘cat’ and drew up a shortlist of three, finally opting for the Earl of Pembroke, a four-year-old Whitby collier, which the Admiralty bought for £2,800.}} McLynn, Frank. Captain Cook: Master of the Seas (p. <s>144</s> 84). Yale University Press.<br/>This also shows that a Whitby collier was not the first choice by the Admiralty.<br/>More to go on this. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 16:03, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for the detailed info.    I've been reading sources and I cannot find any statement that Cook ''chose'' a collier-style for any of his ships.   Several sources say that Cook admired colliers and thought they were outstanding for his kind of voyages.  Others in the admiralty must have shared that view, since they (not Cook) choose the ''Endeavor'' for 1st voyage.  Even for the 2nd and 3rd voyages I have not yet found a source that says Cook selected ships because they were collier-style.  I'll keep looking,  In any case, the article should include facts from sources that describe  Cook's admiration for collier-style.    [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 17:48, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== HMS ''Solebay'' ==

The footnote on HMS ''Solebay'' points to the Three Decks website for information. This site is, at best, ambiguous, but more likely is a serious misread of {{cite book |last1=Winfield |first1=Rif |last2=Winfield |first2=Rif |title=British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1714 - 1792 |date=2014 |orig-year=2007|publisher=Seaforth Publishing |location=Barnsley |isbn=9781-844157006 |edition=Reprinted 2014}}.

Winfield states that ''Solebay'' was built in Plymouth Dockyard and commissioned July 1742. She was then captured by the French 6 August 1744, used by the French as ''Le Solebay''. She was cut out by a British privateer 20 Apr 1746 and sold back to the RN, being recommissioned in August 1746.

I cannot trace where the Three Decks site gets its information on Cook being the master of ''Solebay'', but this is covered by McLynn's book (already a ref in the article). However, Cook's time as master there appears to have been brief. Also, a close reading of McLynn for his time on ''Eagle'' is not a good match for the current article content. A quick look at Beaglehole suggests this part of the article ("Start of Royal Navy Career") could do with a rewrite. In neither case is the article content specifically wrong, as judged against the sources. It is more a matter of what is judged important. Both biographies give some emphasis to Cook's first time in battle, for instance. Instead, the article gives the names of the captains that Cook served under, which is probably a detail that could be omitted. Beaglehole also mentions Cook taking command of a prize. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 21:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
: ''[Simultaneous post ... typed as same time as above; not a reply]''  Regarding sentence: {{green|He then joined the [[sixth-rate]] frigate [[HMS Solebay (1742) |HMS ''Solebay'']] as master under Captain Robert Craig.}} The cited source for that is   http://www.captaincooksociety.com/ccsu62.htm     which is probably not super reliable; but it was already in the article.  I did not supply that source.   We can search for a better source.

:Unfortunately, WP does not have an article for  [[HMS Solebay (1742)]].  Yet curious readers will want details, so  I added an informative footnote that provides more details about that ship:  https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=20077   This  latter source is not used to for [[WP:V]] validation of body text; it is an efn footnote, essentially an "external link" for curious readers.  Yes, the source is sketchy ...  I'm planning on looking for a better source to replace it.  I'm sure the UK Navy has published   details  on it somewhere. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:00, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

::Winfield (as above) is generally the best source on RN ships. The Three Decks site misreads it. Biographies give more emphasis to Cooke's time on other ships and give, at first sight, slightly different chronologies on promotion to bo'sun and master from the article. We both agree that Three Decks is not good enough for the finished product, I think. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 22:09, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::: ''[Edit conflict]'' This book talks about Cook on the Solebay.  Not sure if it is reliable or not:
:::::title={Captain Cook's War \& Peace: The Royal Navy Years, 1755--1768},
:::::author={Robson, J.},
:::::isbn={9781783469284},
:::::url={https://books.google.com/books?id=OWKCAwAAQBAJ},
:::::year={2009},
:::::publisher={Pen \& Sword Books}
:::This book is (was) already used in this article as a source for other sentences (that is, I did not introduce the Robson source into the article).[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:11, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::Alright, I'll use Winfield source for facts/details about ''Solebay'' construction/lifespan;  and Robson source for the fact Cook was master on it.  I have not read Winfield source yet. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:14, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::Robson is certainly an expert. A more traditional reliable source is Beaglehole, whose biography has full text online including page numbers, which is really convenient: [https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/webarchive/20210104000423/http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Bea04Cook-t1-body-d7.html] [https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/webarchive/20210104000423/http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Bea04Cook-t1-body-d8.html] are the chapters dealing with the time in question. Beaglehole says in the first of these chapters "On 30 June he was discharged from the Eagle and entered as master in the Solebay, a 24-gun frigate, Captain Robert Craig." and in the second  "The Solebay's [...] base was at Leith on the Firth of Forth; there she had just returned [..] when Cook joined her on 30 July 1757." His time on the ship ended at some point between 7 September and 17 September 1757. Beaglehole does not have anything very exciting to report about this time; unfortunately Cook's original logs, while extant, are not available digitally (they are part of this: [https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2533808]). —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 22:44, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks, that's excellent information. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== First Voyage Ship and crew ==

@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]]  @[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] I think this is too much detail for a high level article on Cook. I would cut it to two sentences and not have it as a separate sub-section. This sort of detail is best covered in the article on [[HMS Endeavour|The Endeavour]] and [[First voyage of James Cook|First Voyage of James Cook]]. See [[Wikipedia:Summary style|WP:SUMMARY STYLE]]. It's also repetitive: we already know who James Cook is and Banks and Solander are mentioned later in the article when they become prominent in the narrative. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

:I agree. I'm in the middle of working on it right now. I copied some sentences from the other article and I'm trimming them down now. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:54, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
::OK. I'll let you go for it, and if you like you can drop a message here whenever you would like feedback.  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:02, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

== Examination for Lieutenant ==

The biographies of Cook generally miss the fact that he was obliged to take the examination for Lieutenant before he could be appointed to command ''Endeavour''. (The number of guns on ''Endeavour ''required the captain to be a lieutenant, a Master was sufficient to command the schooner/brig ''Grenville''.) This is explained in a a short note in {{cite journal |last1=DAVID |first1=ANDREW C.F. |last2=and JONES |first2=COLIN |title=Documents |journal=The Mariner's Mirror |date=1 January 1999 |volume=85 |issue=3 |pages=335–337 |doi=10.1080/00253359.1999.10656754 |url=https://doi.org/10.1080/00253359.1999.10656754 |issn=0025-3359}}. This source makes clear why the other two lieutenants on the ''Endeavour'' were also newly appointed: if not, they would have been senior to Cook. This might explain the lack of talent in Hicks, since he had passed for lieutenant in 1760 and was serving only as an acting lieutenant until his appointment to ''Endeavour''. The source also provides the length of time that Cook had served, and in what capacity, in the ships he had been on. It is slightly cumbersome in its presentation, but says:
{| class="wikitable"
|+ Cook's lieutenant examination 6 May 1768: sea experience
|-
! Ship !! Capacity !! time
|-
|''Eagle ''|| Able || 0.1.1.2
|-
|''Eagle ''||Master's mate || 0.7.0.3
|-
|''Eagle''|| Master's mate || 1.4.3.2
|-
| ''Solebay ''|| Master || 0.1.1.5
|-
| ''Pembroke ''|| Master || 1.11.3.3
|-
| ''Northumberland ''|| Master || 3.1.3.0
|-
| ''Grenville schooner'' || Master || 3.12.3.5
|-
|  || total sea time|| 11.2.0.6
|}
The time is denoted as years, months, weeks and days. Either the examiners slightly messed up their arithmetic, or they have a way of converting weeks into months when totalling that I cannot discern.

I feel the article should mention that he had to take his examination for lieutenant{{snd}}just because a number of biographers have missed this pivotal point in a naval officer's career is no reason for this article to make the same omission. We also see the very short time periods over which Cook as an able seaman and, later, the master on ''Solebay''. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 09:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Sounds like an important fact to include.  The article already has the sentence (at start of Endeavour voyage) {{green|On 25 May 1768, Cook, at age 39, was promoted to lieutenant to grant him sufficient status to take the command of the  Endeavour}}, so that is a good start.   That sentence has 3 sources already;   I can look  and see if they or other sources (e.g. the ones you name above) contain more explicit language about the why promotion was required before he could take command.  If the sources justify it, I'll add a few words into that sentence.  Or, of course, you are welcome to add some words yourself.  Also, footnotes (using the "efn" template) are available for  interesting details whose importance does not rise to the level of inclusion in the body text.    [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:14, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]]  - In the soruce Kippis  ''A Narrative of Captain Cook's Voyages Round the World: With ...''   Kippis writes:
::{{blockquote|text=Accordingly, Mr. Cook was appointed to the command of the expedition by the lords of the Admiralty; and, on this occasion, he was promoted to the rank of a lieutenant in the royal navy, his commission bearing date on the 25th of May, 1768. When the appointment had taken place, the first object was to provide a vessel adapted to the purposes of the voyage. This business was committed to Sir Hugh Palliser; who took Lieutenant Cook to his assistance, and they examined together a great number of the ships which then lay in the river Thames. At length they fixed upon one, of three hundred and seventy tons, to which was given the name of the Endeavour.}}
::That suggests that the promotion was before the ''Endeavour'' was selected; thus the promotion was related to a class or  size of ship  (weight/ number of crew / number of guns); not  specifically related the ''Endeavour''.   Do your sources indicate that Kippis was wrong? Maybe Kippis has the order reversed (ship selected before promotion)? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Nevermind, I think Kippis is wrong. Other sources confirm that Endeavor was selected as a ship ''before'' the promotion happened.  E.g. Source Hough, page 39.  What is not yet clear is if the ship was selected by Cook or not. Two possible  sequences:
::# The Admiralty decided to promote Cook; then Cook selected the ship; then Cook was promoted.  
::# The Admiralty selected the ship; then decided to promote Cook;   ; then Cook was promoted.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:29, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
::#:Here is a source that asserts that the Endeavour was selected by the Admiralty before Cook was selected to lead the voyage:  
::#:{{blockquote|text=As April 1768 began, James Cook was still expecting to take the brig Grenville back to Newfoundland to undertake another season’s survey.  However, things were happening that would have a major effect on Cook’s life.  The Royal Society and the Admiralty had been in talks concerning organising an expedition to the South Pacific to observe the Transit of Venus, expected in 1769.   The Navy Board had been instructed to find a suitable vessel for the expedition, and by the end of March, Adam Hayes, the master shipwright at Deptford, reported back recommending a collier named Earl of Pembroke.  She was purchased, renamed Endeavour, and registered as a Bark.  Despite what some authors have written, neither James Cook nor Hugh Palliser was party to choosing her.  Cook was still preoccupied with Grenville when vessels were being inspected in late March, and Palliser was still governor of Newfoundland. Cook would have certainly applauded the choice of the Navy Board and the Deptford Dockyard but he played no role in the decision.}}
::#:The source is the Captain Cook Society, which is not super reliable, but what they say above sounds consistent and reasonable.  I think many other sources have repeated the myth that Cook himself (and/or Hugh Pallister) selected the ship, when in fact it was selected by the Admiralty's shipwright [[ Adam Hayes]]. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
{{od}}Just in case you haven't tried it, the reference at the top of this section is available to all (from the "documents" link) and that explains what rank you needed to be to command ''Endeavour'', based on how many guns she carried. I am not sure, but I think sources like Winfield also explain who can command what rate of ship. If not, it is another source that I have. But the Mariners Mirror is a top quality peer-reviewed journal, so that should be sufficient. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 16:40, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks ... good sources! [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 16:49, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

== Canada: various points ==

* The article currently says: {{tq|...and was responsible for mapping much of the entrance to the Saint Lawrence River during the siege}}, yet Beaglehole comments, for instance: "Frequently enough too much credit has been given to Cook for an operation in which all masters took part as a matter of course, and all had a hand in this." (pg 44) Similarly we find the cautionary statement of McLynn "The legend that Cook in person personally surveyed the St Lawrence river that winter and made an accurate chart of its entire length is pure fantasy..." (pg 33) I think the article needs to avoid overstating Cook's role{{snd}}he was just one of several involved in this task.

* Influence of Samuel Holland in teaching Cook some of the land surveyor's skills is completely omitted from the article. Beaglehole makes several mentions of Holland (see the index for the full list), as does McLynn. The latter sums up the relationship with "For Cook this opened up the vista of a really accurate survey of coastlines." (pg 34) The biography of one of the great surveyors and hydrographers must surely make some attempt at discussing the origins of his skills.

* For those readers who come to this article in an attempt to understand the controversies over Cook's later career, his involvement (even as a bystander) to the "inglorious service" (Beaglehole, pg 34) in which ''Pembroke'' was engaged after the capture of Louisburg, destroying French settlements along the coast of the Gulf of St Lawrence, is relevant. Something else to have in mind is that Wolfe, the leader of the British expedition, was notorious for brutality in suppressing the Jacobite rebellion. McLynn states "The six-week siege [of Louisburg] had turned out triumphantly for Amherst, but its conduct was marred by systematic atrocities and the deliberate massacring of all Indians in revenge for the defeat at Fort William Henry the year before. Both Amherst and Wolfe were hard, ruthless men, habitually addicted to war crimes and even genocide." (pg 28) I would hope this would set any accusations about Cook's later behaviour in context{{snd}}but that, of course, is for the reader to form their own opinions on.

* There  is no mention of the November 1767 grounding of the ''Grenville '' off the Nore lighthouse (at the mouth of the Thames) in a severe storm, with the ship having to be abandoned, though reboarded and refloated two days later. This would be a notable incident in any biography of the career of a naval officer. Beaglehole page 93 is the source, with an interesting quote from Cook's journal to explain the seamanship skills used to try and avert disaster.
[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 10:53, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

:Please feel free to make appropriate changes. This isn't meant to be a hagiography. We need to reflect the consensus of scholarship. (However, McLynn's scholarship and judgements have been questioned and it would be safer to corroborate anything he says with other reliable sources.) [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 11:20, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
::Noted, but I am a little short of time to do a complete job at present, and the article is in the midst of another editor making a number of revisions. Re Mclynn: that is why I have also cited Beaglehole, who discusses Samuel Holland extensively. I have read elsewhere (and am trying to discover the source) that Cook's surveying methods in Canada involved using land surveying techniques to establish some features, so that adds logic to the relevance of Holland. On the questionably severe actions under Wolfe's command, (after the fall of Louisburg) we have "Once again, such behaviour was surprisingly similar to the tactics used after Culloden, and Wolfe would not have been shocked by having to employ them." (Royle, Trevor. ''Culloden: Scotland's Last Battle and the Forging of the British Empire'' (p. 233)) [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 16:24, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Another source for questioning the current article content {{tq|...and was responsible for mapping much of the entrance to the Saint Lawrence River during the siege}} is:<br/>"Some fanciful claims have been made for Cook’s further surveys during the winter of 1758–9 and early spring; even that he, alone, conducted a full survey, with soundings, of the 400-mile length of river to Quebec." Hough, Richard. ''Captain James Cook'' (p. 43).
:::I note that Hough is another biographer who gives significant mention of Cook's encounter with Samuel Holland and the subsequent collaboration of the two in making various maps and charts. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 14:19, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks for pointing that out. I changed article to read {{green| ... [Cook] helped map much of the entrance to the Saint Lawrence River during the siege, thus allowing ...}}.  
::::PS: I see the Hough line {{blue|"Some fanciful claims have been ...}} on page 19, not 43.  Can you double check the page number? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:13, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::Page numbering. I have a lot of books in electronic format. Despite what the publishers of these books tell you, unless it is a simple pdf, the page numbering of the electronic version often does not fit the paper one. (I can prove that it does in some  of the cases where I have both an electronic and paper copy.) I actually had a long explanation of all this, yesterday, from someone who works in formatting books for publishing, but that does not really help solve the problem here. Going to google books seems to be the only occasional solution, but is not always available.<br/>I have put some content in the article about [[Samuel Holland (surveyor)]] as the three biographies of Cook to which I have immediate access all discuss in some detail this influence on Cook's life . This naturally flows into the general narrative of Cook's surveying preparatory to the attack on Quebec, so some changes were required there.<br/>I will also put in something about the grounding and near wreck of ''Grenville''.<br/>That leaves outstanding the question of the treatment of French settlements and their inhabitants after the end of the [[Siege of Louisbourg (1758)]]. It is certainly mentioned by two biographers (Beaglehole and McLynn).<br/>I note that unlike the rest of the article, these parts of Cook's life are not covered in more detail elsewhere in Wikipedia. So this is the one-time chance to get significant facts about this aspect into Wikipedia. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 20:14, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::As long as the sources cover it and it's interesting to readers, it's okay in the encyclopedia. At some point, however, the Canada section will get to the point that it's inappropriately large relative to the other sections in this article. A very common thing to happen in articles. 
::::::When it happens, a new article should be created, the Canada section moves into the new article, and we leave a one or two paragraph summary here in this article.  See [[WP:SUMMARY]].  I'm not saying we're at that point yet... but it may happen soon. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 21:03, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

== Source for 2nd voyage direction eastward  ==

It might be useful to add an explanation of why  the 2nd voyage   went  eastward.  Presumably, this was to take advantage of [[Roaring Forties]] winds (and related currents) in or near the [[Southern Ocean]].  Specifically: contrasted with the 1st voyage which went westward (and more-or-less used the [[Trade Winds]]).  Anyone have a source that mentions why 2nd voyage went eastward and/or relates it to the winds & currents?  If sources exist, could go into the body, but maybe better stuck in a footnote. Of course, if the sources don't mention it, it cannot go in the article.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 17:01, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
:Best source that I can find for you on this is<br/>"Since 1616, all VOC ships had been instructed to sail south from the Cape of Good Hope and catch the strong westerly winds, the Roaring Forties, between latitudes 40° S and 50° S. This ensured a faster and safer route to the Indies, as it expedited the sailing time by several months and circumvented Portuguese territory in Asia. The new nautical highway, the so-called Brouwer Route, was first encountered by Hendrik Brouwer in 1610–11 and made mandatory five years later. After Dutch ships had caught the Roaring Forties in their sails, they followed this nautical passage 1,000 miles (7,407 km) east and then turned north with the Southeast Trade Winds that would lead them directly into the Sunda Strait." van Duivenvoorde, Wendy. ''Dutch East India Company Shipbuilding: The Archaeological Study of Batavia and Other Seventeenth-Century VOC Ships'' (Ed Rachal Foundation Nautical Archaeology Series) (p. 21). Texas A&M University Press. ISBN 978-1-62349-179-6
:Whilst it is not specifically about Cook, it probably covers the most common voyages to the East Indies (to use a colonial term). Those who followed the Brouwer Route are largely responsible for discovering Australia in the first place, as, without a way of determining longitude, if you turned too late, you were likely to hit Australia, as happened to ''Batavia'' and several other ships. There is no way that Cook would have been unaware of the Brouwer route{{snd}}it was fundamental to navigating in this area. All Cook did was not turn north, and perhaps head a bit more south.
:Wendy van Duivenvoorde's book does say a little more on the subject (my quote, above, is already pushing the boundaries in terms of quantity), mentioning the names of other European ships lost on the coast of Australia by using this route. The first of these was actually an English ship, ''Trial'', Australia's oldest European shipwreck, which happened in 1622.
:It may help to quote Van Duivenvoorde's sources, in case any are easier for you to find: <br/>Sigmond and Zuiderbaan, Dutch Discoveries of Australia, 31–35.<br/>Bruijn, Gaastra, and Schöffer, Dutch-Asiatic Shipping in the 17th and 18th Centuries, vol. 2, nos. 0143.3, 0144.2; and Sigmond and Zuiderbaan, Dutch Discoveries of Australia, 32. <br/> I have not tried to access either, so no promises on how useful they may be. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 08:17, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
:The article [[Brouwer Route]] may help with sources. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 11:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
::Excellent, thanks.   I'll add a sentence about the wind into the section on the 2nd voyage.  Not yet sure if it should be in the body text or in a footnote.  If the source is not about  Cook and does not mention Cook, that may tilt the choice towards a footnote.   Sometimes that choice becomes clearer after one enters the new text/fact into the article and views it. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 12:27, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

== Disputed Account of Initial Violence in Hawaii ==

Request for balance and clarification regarding who struck first during Cook's death at Kealakekua Bay

The current "Death" section lacks context regarding who initiated the violence on 14 February 1779. While it notes that tensions had escalated and that Cook attempted to kidnap Kalaniʻōpuʻu in retaliation for a stolen cutter, it omits any reference to scholarly debates or Hawaiian oral traditions that suggest Cook or his men may have struck first.

A number of historians and sources indicate that violence may have been initiated by Cook’s party. For example:
In Captive Paradise: A History of Hawaii, historian James L. Haley writes that Cook “struck a chief with the flat of his sword” just before being attacked (Haley 2014, p. 80).

Patrick Vinton Kirch, in A Shark Going Inland Is My Chief, notes that “[Cook] struck the chief Kanaʻina with the flat of his sword,” which precipitated the violence (Kirch, 2012).

Hawaiian oral histories (see Gananath Obeyesekere’s The Apotheosis of Captain Cook) also depict Cook as acting aggressively before being killed.

These perspectives are missing from the article, which instead presents a narrative focused primarily on the European viewpoint. Given Wikipedia’s commitment to neutrality and balanced historical representation, this seems to be an important omission.

Suggested Edits:

Add sentence to paragraph describing the confrontation:

"Some accounts, including Hawaiian oral histories and modern scholarly interpretations, indicate that Cook may have initiated the violence by striking a chief—Kalaimanokahoʻowaha (also called Kanaʻina)—with the flat of his sword."

Citations to include:

Haley, James L. Captive Paradise: A History of Hawaii, St. Martin’s Press, 2014.

Kirch, Patrick Vinton. A Shark Going Inland Is My Chief, University of California Press, 2012.

Obeyesekere, Gananath. The Apotheosis of Captain Cook, Princeton University Press, 1992.

Would appreciate feedback on adding this context, or assistance with sourcing language that adheres to article tone. This addition would help reflect a more nuanced view of Cook’s death, consistent with WP:NPOV. [[User:FlyingNoodles|FlyingNoodles]] ([[User talk:FlyingNoodles|talk]]) 06:28, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:The accounts of Cook's death are contradictory on most points. The entire section needs a rewrite, particularly the very dubious claim that the identity of the persons who struck the first blows are known (the citations for which are a highly selective mix of dubious primary sources and very old secondary sources). But if you would like to give actual page references for the sources you mention then a suitable neutrally worded sentence can be added.  I would prefer something like "accounts of Cook's death vary with some sources suggesting this and others that etc." I would also avoid using wording such as "X initiated the violence" which is a value judgement best avoided. You might also like to raise a discussion on the main article [[Death of James Cook]] which is even worse than this one. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 08:48, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you for your response. I will raise a discussion on the main article as well. I am unfamiliar with dubious primary sources... I'm wondering if simply providing a direct quote from the ships surgeon would be the best way to stay neutral but provide more context. Something like
::News reached the Hawaiians that high-ranking Hawaiian chief Kalimu had been shot (on the other side of the bay) whilst trying to break through a British blockade – this exacerbated the already tense situation.
::"David Samwell, surgeon of the Discovery describes what happened next:
::“While the king was in this situation, a chief, well known to us, of the name of Coho (Koho), was observed lurking near, with an iron dagger, partly concealed under his cloke, seemingly, with the intention of stabbing Captain Cook, or the lieutenant of marines. The latter proposed to fire at him, but Captain Cook would not permit it. Coho (Koho) closing upon them, obliged the officer to strike him with his piece, which made him retire. Another Indian laid hold of the serjeant's musket, and endeavoured to wrench it from him, but was prevented by the lieutenant's making a blow at him.”
::The account continues:
::“A man threw a stone at [Cook]; which he returned with a discharge of small shot… he expostulated strongly with the most forward of the crowd… One man was observed, behind a double canoe, in the action of darting his spear at Captain Cook, who was forced to fire at him in his own defence, but happened to kill another close to him…”
::(Source: A Voyage to the Pacific Ocean, 1784, Vol. 3, pp. 13–14.)"
::At this point, the situation had devolved beyond recovery. Cook, realizing that taking the king was no longer feasible without a large loss of life, ordered a retreat and signaled the boats to approach for evacuation. He and his men became separated during the confusion, and the marines were forced into the water under pressure from the crowd. With the boats struggling to respond amid miscommunication and a barrage of stones, Cook found himself isolated on the shoreline.
::As he attempted to make his way to the pinnace, shielding himself from thrown rocks, Cook was struck from behind and fell. He was then fatally stabbed as he lay in the surf.[178][179][180][ah] His body was dragged away by Hawaiian warriors and later dismembered in accordance with local ritual practices.[183]
::However, this is much more of an extensive edit than instructed and may be better suited for the main article.
::I will consider a more concise edit this week. Thank you for your time [[Special:Contributions/183.88.229.89|183.88.229.89]] ([[User talk:183.88.229.89|talk]]) 02:28, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
:::For context, [[Google Earth]] shows that the shoreline of Kealakekua Bay near the Cook monument (presumably little altered since that time) is strewn with loose rocks.  Anybody trying to get to a boat quickly would have struggled and very likely fallen, and rocks as heavy as anybody could throw were everywhere at hand. A spear would have been convenient, a musket perhaps more of a burden than usable as a weapon. But Cook would have been an easy target for thrown rocks. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 02:51, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

== Longitude ==

I note that the part of the article that discussed longitude is now gone, due to the lack of a citation. As a key historical navigational topic, the subject has a place in an article about a major figure in the history of navigation. As a possible source for this, there is a book by Dava Sobel called (quite simply) ''Longitude''. I don't have a copy to hand right now, but I'm pretty sure it covers the subject in every possible way. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 08:28, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

:I think the section on longitude was too long and technical. We just need one sentence along the lines of "Cook gathered accurate longitude measurements during his first voyage, with the help of astronomer [[Charles Green (astronomer)|Charles Green]], using the newly published [[The Nautical Almanac|''Nautical Almanac'']] tables and the [[Lunar distance (navigation)|lunar distance]] method." Or something similar using the source you suggest. The following paragraph about chronometers is also needs a trim. I would suggest: On his second voyage, Cook used the K1 chronometer made by [[Larcum Kendall]], which <s>was the shape of a large pocket watch, 5 inches (13 cm) in diameter. It</s> was a copy of the [[Harrison Number Four|H4]] clock made by [[John Harrison]]; the first to keep accurate time at sea <s>when used on the ship ''Deptford''<nowiki/>'s journey to [[Jamaica]] in 1761–62</s>. But then we really need a sentence of the importance of this: what did Cook do with this chronometer that advanced science? [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 09:43, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
::But you clearly agree that we need some coverage of longitude. Otherwise it would be a bit like the article on [[John Dalton]] not covering the basics of [[Atomic theory]] (which it does).
::It is not so much what Cook did with a chronometer that advanced science, more what he did to demonstrate a method of navigation that substantially improved safety at sea. This benefitted a very large number of people.<br/>Once the article is all put together, it will need a careful audit to check that a reader with no knowledge of (pre-satellite) navigation can grasp the importance of the lunar distance method and the chronometer for finding out where you are. We need to work out if that is easily done by the reader from the article's links, or whether it needs a very brief explanation of what the problem is. Many articles do this, often in a "historical context" section. Sometimes links are so detailed that I guess a reader would give up reading them before learning the headline points of the subject. Those are the situations where those headline points need to be stated without relying on links. (Or you can rewrite the article you link to.) [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 11:00, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] - I apologize if my edits were a bit too aggressive when I  deleted that text about the longitude.  I absolutely agree that lay readers (with virtually no knowledge of seafaring) should be informed of why the longitude problem was so important.  After all, an important thread thru all three of Cook's scientific voyages is his testing and use of various techniques for determining longitude, and that needs to be covered in the article.   
:::The amount of detail should be guided by:  (a) the relative amount of coverage the sources give; (b) whether lay readers will need to know; and (c) if other WP articles exist that can be linked for the reader to follow.  (This applies to all topics, not just longitude).
:::In the case of longitude, it is complicated (in this article) because the info is currently spread across 2 or 3 sections (mostly "2nd voyage" and "Legacy: Navigation & Science" sections).  
:::I agree with the points made above by @[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ... in particular:  more work needs to be done to refine & improve the text about longitude & timepieces. 
:::I'll keep working on the article, and I'll specifically try to improve the longitude/timepiece information based on the inputs from you all, above.  Fortunately, the sources talk about longitude/timepieces a lot, so there is no shortage of material. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 12:41, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
::::Pretty much agree with all the above. If links to other articles turn out not to be a suitable solution, yet the article has several mentions of the longitude problem, one device to consider is using a footnote where the same footnote is triggered in different places in the article. I am guessing you already know that an {{template|efn}} template can be named and used in more than one location. The footnote explaining a knighthead (currently h) in [[Vasa (ship)]] is an example of a footnote being used twice. Though I find you don't really know which is the best solution until you try it out. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 15:15, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::I have Sobel's book.  It is comprehensive and a marvellous read, but it is popular and not specialist science.  Nevertheless, it might be cited here for Cook's use of chronometers on his second and third voyages: ch 13 (pp 138-151).   [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 03:04, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::Is there any particular fact or insight about Capt. Cook in the Sobel book that should be in this article (and is not yet represented)?  Bear in mind that this article cannot include too much tangential information (that is  not related to Cook directly)... it is already quite large.  This article already  has a link to the Wikipedia article about the longitude problem: [[History of longitude]] ... any generic info about longitude should go in there. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 04:35, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::You're right.  On re-reading that chapter of Sobel, I don't find anything that is not already better included. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 13:41, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

==External links==
:Some things just grow during incremental edits and sometimes get out of hand. The "External links" section, one of the optional appendices, has grown to 24 entries with three subsections. Three seems to be an acceptable number of "External links" and of course, everyone has their favorite to try to add for a fourth. However, [[WP:consensus|consensus]] needs to determine this. 
:However, none is needed for article promotion. 
*[[WP:ELPOINTS|ELpoints #3)]] states: {{tq|Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.}}
*[[WP:LINKFARM|LINKFARM]] states: {{tq|There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.}}
*[[WP:ELMIN|ELMIN]]: {{tq|Minimize the number of links}}. -- 
*[[WP:ELCITE|ELCITE]]: {{tq| '''Do not use {{tl|cite web}}''' or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.}} 
:External links '''This page in a nutshell''': {{tq|External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article. With rare exceptions, external links should not be used in the body of an article.}}
:Second paragraph, {{tq|acceptable external links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.}}
**'''Please note''':
*[[WP:ELBURDEN]]: {{tq|'''Disputed links should be excluded by default''' unless and until there is a consensus to include them}}.  --  [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 21:35, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
*:I'm not a big fan of external links ... they can make an article look cluttered; and the important items can be hidden by the chaff.
*:I would have no objection to deleting all the external links except:
*:* Journals written by Cook, or by his crew or supernumeraries (and not already listed above in Sources)
*:* Museum collections of Cook-related items 
*:All the other external links can be deleted, in my opinion (unless an editor makes a compelling case in the Talk page).  What do other editors think? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:47, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
*::I agree with your proposal. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:06, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

== Working on 2nd voyage section ==

FYI: I'm working on the section [[James_Cook#Searching_for_Terra_Australis]].  It was in pretty bad shape before.  I've added all the events that I think lay readers will find interesting, and added many cites.  The section is still a bit large (relative to this article) so it has to be trimmed.  And the prose is not yet top-quality ... I'm working on it.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 02:23, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

:I have been quite busy recently, but I will be happy to help with sources and everything. (I have written or updated a few Cook-related articles, but have shied away from working on the big one). [[A Voyage Round the World#Content]] is my best at summarising the second voyage (from one of the narratives). —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 10:34, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks: that  [[A Voyage Round the World]] article looks very elegant and professional... nice work!  I'll definitely read it to get some ideas.
::The biggest challenge I'm facing it abridgment:  For example, the lazy way to write the 2nd voyage section is to narrate all significant events and locations; but then the article ends up  replicating  the content of the [[Second voyage of James Cook]] article, thus violating the intent of the   [[WP:Summary style]] guideline.  So, one must abridge and condense,  which can easily  lead to an unappealing "bullet-point" writing style (see essay [[WP:PROSELINE]]).    It's harder to write an abridgement than a full account.  Ditto for just about every other section in this article. 
::Thanks for the offer of assistance: I'll reach out for sure when I need a second set of eyeballs.   For sources: I'll post here in this Talk page;  there seem to be many helpful editors who have a deep knowledge of the subject. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:45, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

== Best section for existing "leadership" paragraph? ==

The "Legacy" section, subsection "Science" at [[James_Cook#Science]] currently has this paragraph:

{{blockquote|Several officers who served under Cook went on to distinctive accomplishments. William Bligh, Cook's sailing master, was given command of HMS Bounty in 1787 to sail to Tahiti and return with breadfruit. Bligh became known for the mutiny of his crew, which resulted in his being set adrift in 1789. He later became Governor of New South Wales, where he was the subject of another mutiny—the 1808 Rum Rebellion. George Vancouver, one of Cook's midshipmen, led a voyage of exploration to the Pacific Coast of North America from 1791 to 1794. In honour of Vancouver's former commander, his ship was named Discovery. George Dixon, who sailed under Cook on his third expedition, later commanded his own.}}

Very important information, reflecting on the leadership capabilities of Cook.  Not clear which section it should go in. Lots of options:
# Leave it in the existing Science section
## Change "Science" sec title to "Science and leadership"
## Leave "Science" sec title as-is
# Put it into a new, small "Leadership" subsection
# Leave it in place, but merge existing Science & Navigation sections into one big section covering Navigation, Leadership & Science (this is how the article was a couple of weeks ago).  Would be big, but not too huge. What would section title be? 
# .. other? ...

I don't have any strong feelings about it.  Anyone have any suggestions? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:09, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

== Near loss of Grenville ==

I have reduced some of the detail which is too much for this incident. I don't think this incident deserves, for example, more space that the Transit of Venus section or twice as much space as the more famous and serious incident on the Great Barrier Reef. Policy states:  ""An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, a '''description of isolated events''', quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiable]] and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." WP:[[Wikipedia:PROPORTION|PROPORTION]]  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:35, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
:I think you may be missing the point made above. The transit of Venus is covered in more detail in Wikipedia in [[First voyage of James Cook]]. The incident in the Thames estuary that could easily have taken Cook's life has no other place in Wikipedia. So the principle of proportionality is skewed by the major topic with which you compare it being covered in full in a different article. I appreciate that the seamanship involved in giving the best chance of the ship surviving a very bad situation might be lost on some readers, but it will have meaning for many. I will let you mull this over, but at the very least, the shortened version needs some correction (for instance, the ship was not "repaired", it was rigged with new spars as, so it would appear from the description, the old ones were thrown overboard to lighten the ship. It was a standard evolution when aground. See [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_Thetis_aground.jpg] for an illustration of this being done in calm weather (the sagging topmast shrouds are a clue to what is going on. The go-to reference would be Harland, John (2015). Seamanship in the age of sail : an account of shiphandling of the sailing man-o-war, 1600-1860. ISBN 978-1-8448-6309-9.) With the article making appropriately full mention of Cook's skills as a surveyor and hydrographer, it is easy to miss the fact that he was a highly skilled seaman as well. The suggestion above, that the "pre-exploration voyages" part could be split off into a separate article may ultimately apply.
:What do others think? [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 23:13, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

::Incidentally, the account of the grounding on the barrier reef in [[First voyage of James Cook]] seems remarkably blandly written. It makes that event sound one step away from cracking a tail-light glass in a parking incident. The enormity of that damage only came to light when more complete repairs were done in Batavia{{snd}}see Cook's journal, plus Beaglehole pg 262-263 ("what Mr Satterly had not been able to see was indeed disastrous"). I don't want to sound over-critical, but have to float the idea that editors need some grasp of the seamanship needed for the ships of that time. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 23:36, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] - Regarding the question'' "The suggestion above, that the "pre-exploration voyages" part could be split off into a separate article may ultimately apply. What do others think?" ''  Creating a new article on the pre-Pacific-Ocean-exploration phase of his life could be a win-win.  Readers of the encyclopedia interested in that time of Cook's life would have a centralized  article, which can go into great detail.  And it would avoid introducing any [[WP:PROPORTION]] or [[WP:SUMMARY]] issues into the [[James Cook]] parent article.   If you choose to go that route: simply create a new, empty article, copy the text from the current section into it, and leave 2 or 3  summary paragraphs in this article. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:13, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
{{od}}I have found a solution to all this by putting the long version in the article on ''Grenville'', with a link from the shortened text. I have modified the short version somewhat, but it is essentially as brief as the first abridgement. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 08:42, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:I'm happy with that solution, and the revised text looks good to me. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 09:38, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

::@[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]]  Speaking of the Canada section, it has this sentence:  
::{{blockquote|text=During the 1765 season, four pilots were engaged at a daily pay of 4 [[shilling]]s each: John Beck for the coast west of "[[St. Lawrence, Newfoundland and Labrador|Great St Lawrence]]", Morgan Snook for [[Fortune Bay]], John Dawson for Connaigre and [[Hermitage Bay]], and John Peck for the "[[Bay d'Espoir|Bay of Despair]]".}}
::Providing the names of the four pilots seems to be overly detailed relative to the rest of the article (they are placed on the same level as Ben Franklin or Cook's parents :-) The four pilots do not have WP articles. Also, naming the pilots so prominently  may cause some readers to think that the pilots are notable.  Would it be better to move their names into a footnote?  Such as:
::{{blockquote|text=During the 1765 season, four pilots were engaged at a daily pay of 4 [[shilling]]s each to assist with mapping the west coast of  "[[St. Lawrence, Newfoundland and Labrador|Great St Lawrence]]",  [[Fortune Bay]],  Connaigre, [[Hermitage Bay]], and   the "[[Bay d'Espoir|Bay of Despair]]"<ref>The pilots were: John Beck for the coast west of "[[St. Lawrence, Newfoundland and Labrador|Great St Lawrence]]", Morgan Snook for [[Fortune Bay]], John Dawson for Connaigre and [[Hermitage Bay]], and John Peck for the "[[Bay d'Espoir|Bay of Despair]]".</ref>}} 
{{reflist}}
[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:10, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:Provisionally, I see no need to name these pilots either in the article or a footnote. The locations covered seem relevant for a footnote. I would like to check a source like Beaglehole to make that a final opinion, but am not at home at present. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 18:53, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
:It seems that only the cited source, ''James Cook in Newfoundland'', gives the names of these local pilots. That further supports the idea that we do not need to name them in the article. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 21:26, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
::Okay.  I moved the names into a footnote. We can always change our minds later, if necessary. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:08, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

== Proposed update to the existing "Controversy" section ==

I took a stab at updating the text in the Controversy section to make it more encyclopedic and cohesive.  Overall, the content is about the same, but I hope the prose & organization is improved.  Since the topic is potentially contentious, I wanted to post it here first and get feedback.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 03:53, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for opening this up for comment. I prefer the present version for the moment because its focus is James Cook whereas your proposed revision (especially the lead paragraph) puts the focus on the broader decolonisation movement. In other words, I prefer the version which starts with the recent spate of vandalisation of Cook memorials then a few lines that puts this into a broader context. Then a brief discussion of Cook's relationship to colonialism. If anything, I would cut the following paragraph: "In July 2021, a statue of Cook in [[Victoria, British Columbia]], Canada, was torn down in protests about the [[Canadian Indian residential school system|deaths of Indigenous residential school children]] in Canada. In January 2024, a statue of Cook in [[St Kilda, Melbourne]] was cut down in a protest against colonialism; the premier of [[Victoria (state)|Victoria]] pledged to work with the local council to repair the statue" as these are news items ([[WP:NOTNEWS]]). I would replace it with a sentence such as "attacks on public monuments to Cook continued" perhaps with a footnote giving a couple of examples. I certainly see no reason to bring Christopher Columbus and King Leopold of Belgium into it. I also much prefer the current concise summary of Alice Proctor which states the link between Cook and the broader decolonisation movement. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 04:48, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
::Sounds good, I think the current version is not ''too ''bad... I was just trying to provide some big picture context.  I'll leave it as is and implement those changes you mentioned. Thanks for the input. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 05:03, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
:::To emphasise the point made above, I would strongly caution against putting the names of Cook, Columbus and King Leopold of Belgium in the same sentence, especially in this context. I think we have to have in mind the propensity of many to misunderstand what they read, especially with the shorter attention spans of readers these days. King Leopold was a totally ruthless exploiter, and Columbus enslaved people in the West Indies in direct contravention of the instructions from the patron for his expedition. This comment might now be redundant, but the point has to be made. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 07:47, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

===Controversy===
{{seealso|Indigenous response to colonialism}}

Advocates for indigenous peoples  often make efforts to publicize and reverse the negative effects of colonialism.{{efn|Such efforts  are sometimes considered to be an aspect of [[decolonization]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite book| title = International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences |last = Hack |first = Karl |publisher = Macmillan Reference |year = 2008 |isbn = 978-0028659657 |location = Detroit |pages = 255–257}}</ref><ref>
John Lynch, ed. ''Latin American Revolutions, 1808–1826: Old and New World Origins'' (1995).
</ref><ref name=":6">{{cite book |last1=Betts |first1=Raymond F. |title=Beyond Empire and Nation |date=2012 |publisher=Brill |isbn=978-90-04-26044-3 |pages=23–37 |chapter=Decolonization a brief history of the word |doi=10.1163/9789004260443_004 |jstor=10.1163/j.ctt1w8h2zm.5}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Corntassel |first=Jeff |date=2012-09-08 |title=Re-envisioning resurgence: Indigenous pathways to decolonization and sustainable self-determination |url=https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/des/article/view/18627 |journal=Decolonization: Indigeneity, Education & Society |language=en |volume=1 |issue=1 |issn=1929-8692}}</ref>
}}  Some advocates call for  public commemorations or celebrations of  colonization to be eliminated or altered, such as as monuments, statues, street names, or holiday names.  Efforts to remove or de-emphasize colonialism are sometimes directed at historic individuals such as [[Christopher Columbus]],<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brito |first=Christopher |date=25 September 2020 |title=Dozens of Christopher Columbus statues have been removed since June |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-columbus-statue-removed-cities/ |access-date=26 September 2020 |website=CBS News-US}}</ref>  [[Leopold II of Belgium|King Leopold]] of Belgium,<ref name="Bruzz">{{
Cite news
 |url=https://www.bruzz.be/samenleving/brusselse-meerderheid-vraagt-dekolonisering-van-openbare-ruimte-2020-06-04
 |title=Brusselse meerderheid vraagt dekolonisering van openbare ruimte 
|work=[[Bruzz]]
 |date=4 June 2020 
|access-date=7 June 2020 
|language=nl
}}</ref> or [[James Cook]].<ref name="Daley 2020">{{Cite web 
|last=Daley
 |first=Paul 
|date=29 April 2020
 |title=Commemorating Captain James Cook's arrival, Australia should not omit his role in the suffering that followed
 |url=https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2020/apr/29/commemorating-james-cooks-arrival-australia-should-not-omit-his-role-in-the-suffering-that-followed
 |access-date=16 March 2021
 |website=The Guardian
 |archive-date=8 March 2021
 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308230636/https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2020/apr/29/commemorating-james-cooks-arrival-australia-should-not-omit-his-role-in-the-suffering-that-followed
 |url-status=live
}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web
 |last=Roy 
|first=Eleanor Ainge 
|date=8 October 2019
 |title=New Zealand wrestles with 250th anniversary of James Cook's arrival 
|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/08/new-zealand-wrestles-with-250th-anniversary-of-james-cooks-arrival 
|access-date=15 March 2021
 |website=The Guardian 
|archive-date=14 April 2021
 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210414030255/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/08/new-zealand-wrestles-with-250th-anniversary-of-james-cooks-arrival
 |url-status=live
}}</ref>{{efn|Although some of these historic figures, such as Columbus and Cook, may not have played a significant role in the decades-long process of colonizing, they have come to symbolize the start of the colonization process as a result of their roles as discoverers and because of their prominent representation in education and culture.{{cn}}}}

The period 2018 to 2021 marked the 250th anniversary of Cook's first voyage of exploration. Several countries, including Australia and New Zealand, arranged official events to commemorate the voyage,<ref>{{Cite web |title=250th anniversary of Captain Cook's voyage to Australia |url=https://www.arts.gov.au/what-we-do/cultural-heritage/250th-anniversary-captain-cooks-voyage-australia |access-date=15 March 2021 |website=Australian Government, Office for the Arts |archive-date=8 March 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308172046/https://www.arts.gov.au/what-we-do/cultural-heritage/250th-anniversary-captain-cooks-voyage-australia |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=Tuia Enounters 250 |url=https://mch.govt.nz/tuia250 |access-date=15 March 2021 |archive-date=6 March 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210306135019/https://mch.govt.nz/tuia250 |url-status=live}}</ref> leading to widespread public debate about Cook's legacy and the violence associated with his contacts with Indigenous peoples.<ref name="Daley 2020">{{Cite web |last=Daley |first=Paul |date=29 April 2020 |title=Commemorating Captain James Cook's arrival, Australia should not omit his role in the suffering that followed |url=https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2020/apr/29/commemorating-james-cooks-arrival-australia-should-not-omit-his-role-in-the-suffering-that-followed |access-date=16 March 2021 |website=The Guardian |archive-date=8 March 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308230636/https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2020/apr/29/commemorating-james-cooks-arrival-australia-should-not-omit-his-role-in-the-suffering-that-followed |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |last=Roy |first=Eleanor Ainge |date=8 October 2019 |title=New Zealand wrestles with 250th anniversary of James Cook's arrival |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/08/new-zealand-wrestles-with-250th-anniversary-of-james-cooks-arrival |access-date=15 March 2021 |website=The Guardian |archive-date=14 April 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210414030255/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/08/new-zealand-wrestles-with-250th-anniversary-of-james-cooks-arrival |url-status=live}}</ref> In the lead-up to the commemorations, various memorials to Cook in Australia and New Zealand were vandalised, and there were public calls for their removal or modification due to their alleged promotion of colonialist narratives.<ref>{{Cite web |date=23 August 2017 |title=Australia debates Captain Cook 'discovery' statue |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-41020363 |access-date=15 March 2021 |website=BBC News |archive-date=14 April 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210414030114/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-41020363 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web
 |date=13 June 2020 |title=Captain James Cook statue defaced in Gisborne
 |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/captain-james-cook-statue-defaced-in-gisborne/RH3B2TD2CNMR6D2AP3QWSBX2F4/ 
|access-date=16 March 2021
 |website=[[The New Zealand Herald]]
 |archive-date=9 March 2021 
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210309004905/https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/captain-james-cook-statue-defaced-in-gisborne/RH3B2TD2CNMR6D2AP3QWSBX2F4/
 |url-status=live
}}</ref> There were also campaigns for the return of Indigenous artefacts taken during Cook's voyages.<ref>{{cite web 
|date=13 November 2020
 |title=Shots Fired 
|url=https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/stuff-the-british-stole/shots-fired/12868096 
|url-status=live 
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210307042709/https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/stuff-the-british-stole/shots-fired/12868096
 |archive-date=7 March 2021 
|access-date=12 March 2021
 |website=ABC Radio National
}}</ref>{{efn|An example of an artefact that has been the subject of requests for return is the [[Gweagal shield]].<ref>{{Cite journal
|last=Thomas|first=Nicholas
|date=2018
|title=A Case of Identity: The Artifacts of the 1770 Kamay (Botany Bay) Encounter|url=
|journal=Australian Historical Studies
|volume=49
|issue=1
 |pages=4–27
|doi=10.1080/1031461X.2017.1414862 
|via=Taylor and Francis Online
}}</ref>}}

Other incidents include the  destruction of a Cook statue in July 2021  in [[Victoria, British Columbia]], Canada. The statue was torn down as part of  protests about the [[Canadian Indian residential school system|deaths of Indigenous residential school children]] in Canada.<ref>{{Cite web |date=3 July 2021 |title=Capt. James Cook statue recovered from Victoria Harbour; what's next is undecided |url=https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/capt-james-cook-statue-recovered-from-victoria-harbour-what-s-next-is-undecided-1.24337872 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210703145332/https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/capt-james-cook-statue-recovered-from-victoria-harbour-what-s-next-is-undecided-1.24337872 |archive-date=3 July 2021 |access-date=4 July 2021 |website=Times Colonist}}</ref> In January 2024, a statue of Cook in [[St Kilda, Melbourne]] was cut down in a protest against colonialism; the premier of [[Victoria (state)|Victoria]] pledged to work with the local council to repair the statue.<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/captain-cook-statue-cut-down-on-eve-of-australia-day/news-story/aa6aa1f84cf25bc70dab5765d42a9031?amp&nk=89c859e6bc39eb7b8000c7309289cfd8-1706162324 
|last=Ellis 
|first=Fergus
 |title=Captain Cook statue cut down on eve of Australia Day, vandals brazenly share footage
 |work=Herald Sun
 |date=25 January 2024 
|access-date=26 January 2024}}</ref><ref name=AusDay>{{cite news 
|date=25 January 2024 
|title=Melbourne statues of Queen Victoria and Captain Cook vandalised on Australia Day eve 
|url=https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-25/melbourne-captain-cook-queen-victoria-statues-vandalised/103386996
 |url-status=live 
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240125000119/https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-25/melbourne-captain-cook-queen-victoria-statues-vandalised/103386996 
|archive-date=25 January 2024 
|access-date=25 January 2024 |work=[[ABC News Online]]}}</ref>

Some scholars have questioned the emphasis that  indigenous rights advocates place on on Cook, pointing out that he was  more enlightened and humane than many contemporary explorers. [[Robert Tombs]]  defended Cook, stating: "He epitomized the [[Age of Enlightenment]] in which he lived" and in conducting his first voyage "was carrying out an enlightened mission, with instructions from the Royal Society to show 'patience and forbearance' towards native peoples".<ref>{{cite news
|last=Tombs 
|first=Robert 
|author-link=Robert Tombs
|date=4 February 2021
 |title=Captain Cook wasn't a 'genocidal' villain. He was a true Enlightenment man 
|work=The Telegraph
 |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2021/02/04/captain-cook-wasnt-genocidal-villain-true-enlightenment-man/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2021/02/04/captain-cook-wasnt-genocidal-villain-true-enlightenment-man/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 
|url-access=subscription
 |url-status=live 
|access-date=9 December 2021 |issn=0307-1235}}{{cbignore}}</ref>

Art historian Alice Proctor analyzed the museum and art cultures in Australia and concluded that there is a significant bias in favor of Europeans, colonialists, and explorers like Cook, at the expense of indigenous peoples and culture.  She also concluded that Cook and his scientists looted  indigenous cultures, with the goal of providing European museums with artefacts. <ref>{{cite book
 |last=Proctor
 |first=Alice
 |title=The Whole Picture: The colonial story of the art in our museums and why we need to talk about it
 |publisher=Cassell 
|year=2020
 |isbn=978-1-78840-155-5
 |location=London
 |chapter=The Kangaroo and the Dingo
|access-date=28 May 2025
|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Whole_Picture/vfyvDwAAQBAJ
}}</ref>
{{reflist}}

== Belongs in [[:Category:British people executed abroad]] ?  ==

Cook is currently listed in  [[:Category:British people executed abroad]].

Looking in that category, it only has about 25 people in it, and it appears that the category is intended to contain people that were tried for a crime, and found guilty, and executed.   It seems like Cook does not belong to that category, but rather in the [[:Category:British people murdered abroad]]. Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:55, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
:I made that change. Let me know if it doesn't seem right. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:18, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
::Certainly wasn't "executed" in any reasonable definition of that term. Tbh am not entirely convinced that "murder" works either - per our definition of {{tq|Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse committed with the necessary intention as defined by the law in a specific jurisdiction.}} How confident are we that the state of Anglo-Hawaiian relations at the time of Cooks death made that death without justification or valid excuse as defined by Hawaiian custom or law? Certainly it was murder from a British perspective, but Hawaii was not under British jurisdiction and it's at least arguable the Hawaiians felt the attack had provocation and potentially justification.

::Cook was killed in a surprise attack, certainly. It was possibly an unfair surprise attack, or not, depending on the point of view.  Just not sure that it was technically a murder given the specific time, jurisdiction and circumstances. -- [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 03:16, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
:::The more specific article [[Death of James Cook]] has a Talk section "#Account of death" in which [[User:GreenC]] makes IMHO a valuably balanced contribution, to the effect in the present context that we just do not know enough to make an assessment as definite as "execution" or "murder". My preference would be to remove Cook from both "executed abroad" and "murdered abroad". [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 08:38, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
::::Sounds reasonable. I'll remove from both categories.  But if there are more opinions or insights we should definitely keep the conversation going. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 12:01, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. Maybe it should continue, at least at first, in [[Death of James Cook]] "#Account of death", where [[User:GreenC]] plans to deal with a new and detailed biography of Cook:  {{cite book|url=https://hamptonsides.com/the-wide-wide-sea|last=Sides|first=Hampton|title=The Wide Wide Sea|year=2024}} [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 13:20, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::This is on my todo list to rewrite that article but honestly it will take some time and that is something I don't have much of these days. There is a lot of junk history out there about Cook that has made its way into Wikipedia. I agree he was not "Executed", it was a fluid and contingent situation on the beach that morning. It was more like walking into a bad neighborhood and insulting the wrong people and things escalated and nobody backed down and some people got hurt. Afterwards there were apologies, the ship was resupplied and everyone went their way.<span id="GreenC:1748621507249:TalkFTTCLNJames_Cook" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 16:11, 30 May 2025 (UTC)</span>

== Source needed for "''Terra Australis '' was expected to extend into temperate zone" ==

Two of the three voyages involved a search for ''Terra Australis''.  After the 2nd voyage, sources say that fellow naturalists concluded  that ''Terra Australis'' did not exist.   Since he mostly travelled at around 60 degrees latitude, that did not seem like a solid conclusion to me. Then I read another source that said that (at that time) naturalists expected   ''Terra Australis'' to extend into the temperate zones.  So now the conclusion that T. A. did not exist makes more sense.

Unfortunately, I cannot recall which source said "naturalists expected that ''Terra Australis'' extended into the temperate zones".  I see that assertion in two web sites, but they're kinda sketchy:
* https://static-prod.lib.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/pacific-ocean/terra-australis.html
* https://gatesofvienna.net/2022/09/terra-australis-incognita/

Does anyone have a reliable source  for the assertion "naturalists expected that ''Terra Australis'' extended into the temperate zones"? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:57, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] Blainey (2020) p 39 presents Dalrymple's opinion thus:  "[The missing continent's] more favoured regions would probably imitate the climate of the Mediterranean". Blainey also writes, "if the landmass were found to extend close to tropical Tahiti, as Robertson of the ''Dolphin'' predicted, then the new continent might be a paradise of tropical products as well as those of the temperate zone." Blainey states that Robertson, Dalrymple and Charles de Brosse were among the leading advocates of the missing continent.   [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:55, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
::Blainey (2020) pp 40-42 also cites James Douglas, Earl of Morton as a proponent of the new continent who thought that it would likely be well populated and prosperous. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:04, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
:::Excellent ... thanks so much! [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:12, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

== Rank before or after name in first sentence of lead? ==

FYI:  I posted a query at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#First_sentence:_put_rank_before_or_after_name?]]  asking if the first sentence in a military biography article should start "Captain James Cook was ... " or "James Cook was ... [captain is mentioned here] ... ".   I searched for an MOS guideline that covered it, but could not find one.  If anyone has any insight on that question, please post info at that Project Talk page. Thanks. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:15, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:An editor there gave a pretty definitive answer (rank before name for British military bios) so no need for more input. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:43, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::I have opposed that answer, writing: "But putting rank of any kind ''after'' the name seems to be general WP practice, so perhaps should be added to MOS.  Examples: we don't put 'Professor' or even 'Queen' before the name. I don't see why military should be an exception."  So I agree with your previous edit of the article, as "James Cook" and afterwards "Captain ...". [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 01:55, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
:::I agree with you (see my reply there).  But it is probably best to follow the Royal Navy convention in this [[James Cook]] Lead, at least until there is consensus in WP (in reality: consensus in the WP Military History project)  to establish a new MOS for military ranks. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 02:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::::Surely the deficiency of denoting a rank is that this just captures a moment in time. He was a lieutenant when he made his (arguably) most significant first voyage, a commander on his second, and a post captain on his third. Without these 3 voyages, I guess there would still be sufficient notability through his time surveying Newfoundland as a master for there to be an article here.<br/>Putting his rank at the time of his death in the first sentence of the article, especially as the first word, is "sound-bitey" and I question whether it is truly encyclopaedic in style. It might be more representative of his career (and indicative of his breadth of experience) to simply list, in the first paragraph of the article, the ranks he held over his naval career, something like:<br/>"He joined the Royal Navy as an able seaman, was soon promoted to master's mate and bo'sun, then as his career progressed, master, lieutenant, commander and finally post-captain."<br/>That would need polishing up with the correct links for each position.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 07:33, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::::I argue that the most notable thing that he did was as a lieutenant. That is not something we necessarily need to spell out, but it is incomplete and misleading to emphasise the rank at the time of his death by placing it as the first word of the article.[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 07:58, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

== style and content check ==

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (ODNB) might serve as a useful check for style and content for this article. That is not to suggest that we should slavishly follow that work, but use it to as a comparison point, simply because it is trying to do the same job that we are doing here. I note some recent change here (e.g. passing the exam for lieutenant) to include content that already existed in the ODNB article{{snd}}is there anything else of that sort? 

It might also add something to consideration of how Cook's rank is dealt with in the opening of the article.

It can be found at [https://www.oxforddnb.com/display/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-6140?rskey=v7s8e2&result=3], though I appreciate that it will only be free to access for some editors. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 08:08, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

== Changes to lead ==

I have made a few interim changes to the lead but I think we should have another think about it when we've finished the changes to the article. I prefer the previous wording about Cook charting coastlines etc in the Pacific from Hawaii to the east coast of Australia. (Although it's still inadequate: South Georgia Island isn't in the Pacific.) He claimed many lands for Britain, not just several. I'm also not sure about a "crucial" time in British exploration: there's nothing about this in the article. And surely Cook was famous, not just "known". He was the most famous man in the British empire at the time and there are many sources which state this: it's not just peacocking. But we can discuss further.  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 10:51, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] - You're right.  I changed words back to "crucial" and "famous" in the Lead.   I though the wording was a bit too [[WP:PEACOCK]], but for this person, the words are warranted.   [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:23, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

== Source for jetty in Hawaii? ==

{{yo|Errantios }}   Re the jetty in Hawaii ... the source  
*  <nowiki>  <ref>Photo by Camilo Gaivoto, [[Google Earth]]<!--one of multiple angles of Street View, found by serendipity-->, access date 1 June 2025.</ref>  </nowiki>  
is not very strong per [[WP:RS]].   Can you find a better source?  Ideally, there'd be a newspaper article or something that ''talks'' about the jetty.  Otherwise, it verges on [[WP:OR]] or [[WP:SYNTH]] issues.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:09, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
:I found a source:  https://www.captaincooksociety.com/cooks-life/places/a-visit-to-kealakekua-bay-19-july-2005   This source is  the ''Captain Cook Society'', which is not as scholarly as one would hope, but they seem to have stupendous detail in their web site, and they are already used as a source for several sentences in this article.  I have not yet encountered any factual errors in their web pages.  In several cases, they are the ''only'' source I've been able to find for particular facts in this article.   [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 19:01, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you very much{{mdash}}have added. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 22:35, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

== Split "Early life and family" section? ==

The section [[James_Cook#Early_life_and_family]] doesn't seem as well organized as it could be (I'm not talking the content/prose, just the section organization).  

The section seems to be covering two distinct topics: Early Life, and Family.  Which might make sense for some figures, but in this case: he got married when he was 34, not really in his "early" life.    Also, when a section title has the word "and" in it, that raises questions.

Any suggestions on ways to improve it?  Split the section into two?  It is not a huge deal, and maybe it should be left as-is.  But I have a feeling it could be organized better. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:32, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
:I split the section into two.  It seems cleaner; the titles are more terse; and the sections are not too large.  There is an outlier paragraph that contains Samwell's description of Cook (now in the Family section), but it seems tolerable.   [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 04:37, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

== Source for  "In honour of Vancouver's former commander, his ship was named Discovery" ==

The article has the sentence: {{green|In honour of Vancouver's former commander, his ship was named Discovery.}}  There is no cite for it.  I cannot,  yet, find a source to support it.  It seems like there are three possible scenarios:
* [[HMS Discovery (1789)]] was named after [[HMS Discovery (1774)]], simply as a matter of course, with no special intention
* [[HMS Discovery (1789)]] was named to honour [[HMS Discovery (1774)]]
* [[HMS Discovery (1789)]] was named to honour Cook, by naming it after a ship in one of Cook's expeditions
Does anyone have a source that could support one of the above? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:19, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::Probably named for Cook's ship: [https://antiqueprintmaproom.com/product/the-discovery-convict-ship-lying-at-dentford-the-vessel-which-accompanied-capt-cook-on-his-last-voyage/ This source] says "named for Cook's ship". The article section [[George_Vancouver#Spanish_Empire-sponsored_voyages]] says it was "named on honour" of the previous ship, and gives two offline sources: ''The Great Circle'' is [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41563561 here], and the other I can't find - both would need to be verified. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 19:18, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Thanks for those sources.   The first one (https://antiqueprintmaproom.com/product/the-discovery-convict-ship-lying-at-dentford-the-vessel-which-accompanied-capt-cook-on-his-last-voyage/)  has a good statement (ship named after ship) but is a sketchy source, not sure we can use it in this article.   The second source ''The Great Circle'' article does not say what the ship is named after, unfortunately.  I guess we can keep looking. It's possible that there are no solid sources stating how Vancouver's ship got its name. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 19:39, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
::::The most authoritative source is Vancouver's own journals, and for that we have a modern multi-volume annotated edition by W. K. Lamb [https://archive.org/search?query=%22The+voyage+of+George+Vancouver%22 here]; sadly the first volume is missing which probably has a Preface and Introduction by Lamb, that might mention it. I think that antique map room source is not so bad because these places often have in house historians and getting facts correct is important to the buyer. The [https://antiqueprintmaproom.com/about-us/ About Us] page makes them look high-end and reputable. They say "We take great care to carefully research every product that we find so that our customers can be sure that the information they are given is as accurate as possible. '''We use a variety of historical research methods'''". This is basically how we define what a reliable source is for Wikipedia purposes, outlets known for research, fact checking, editorial control.  -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 20:31, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Citations:
* {{cite web |title=Vancouver's Voyage of Discovery |work=[[Royal Geographical Society of South Australia]] |access-date=2025-06-02 |url=https://rgssa.org.au/heritage/treasures/vancouvers-voyage-of-discovery |quote=Vancouver's voyage left Falmouth, England on 1 April 1791 in the new sloop Discovery (named after Cook's ship) }}
* {{cite web |last=Landauer |first=Lyndall Baker |title=George Vancouver |work=[[EBSCO Information Services|EBSCO]] |date=2022 |access-date=2025-06-02 |url=https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/george-vancouver |quote=His ship was the Discovery, a newly built namesake of Cook's ship.}}
-- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 22:42, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
:I added the cites to [[George Vancouver]] and [[HMS Discovery (1789)]]. If it should be added here I will leave for others.<span id="GreenC:1748908731999:TalkFTTCLNJames_Cook" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 23:58, 2 June 2025 (UTC)</span>
::Thanks, I added it here ... using the Royal Geographic Society source. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:17, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

== Cook's concern for cleanliness & hygiene of crew ==

Several sources mention Cook's concern for cleanliness & hygiene of his crew. It seems closely related to his concern for their diet & scurvy. I added the following (as a footnote) into the existing paragraph on scurvy (in the Science section):

:{{green|Cook also promoted hygiene by having the crew wash frequently and air-out their bedding and quarters.}}

If anyone thinks it should be promoted into the body text, or otherwise altered, we can do that. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 19:16, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] I see that this information is currently quite scanty and is put under science. We mention the STD issue in a footnote but it might need expansion and promotion to the main body of the article. According to Williams and Thomas the STD issue is a controversial one in Hawaii where apparently the legend is that Cooke deliberately spread it. So if we want to discuss it, it can go in the Controversies section or the Legacy section under a Health subsection. There is also a large literature on Cooke's mental and physical health on the third voyage which we seem to only raise in one very inadequate sentence: "Cook became increasingly frustrated and irritable on this voyage, and sometimes exhibited irrational behaviour towards his crew, such as forcing them to eat walrus meat, which they considered inedible." [As an aside, it wasn't irrational for Cook to insist the crew ate walrus meat--he wanted them to eat fresh meat for health reasons. The problem was he used heavy-handed measures to enforce his edict.] If we want the article to be comprehensive enough for GA perhaps the issues of Cook's health and the STD issue should be covered in a concise way somewhere. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:22, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
::Ah, glad to hear you say that ... I was thinking along the same lines.  Bulletizing here for future reference: 
::* Hygiene of crew
::* STDs - HI legend, etc: new Health section within Legacy?  Within Controversies section?
::* 3rd voyage Cook's own health
::It makes me wonder if some of this information should be consolidated into a section devoted to Cook's management style: his behavior as a captain: practices, reputation, good/bad vs other captains;  strict/lax; etc.  I'm not sure ...such a section could end up being a messy dumping ground.  On the other hand, Nelson's article has [[Horatio_Nelson,_1st_Viscount_Nelson#Assessment|a section called Asseessment]] 
::[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:36, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] - I'm looking into the topic you raised above {{xt|We mention the STD issue in a footnote but it might need expansion and promotion to the main body of the article. According to Williams and Thomas the STD issue is a controversial one in Hawaii where apparently the legend is that Cooke deliberately spread it. So if we want to discuss it, it can go in the Controversies section or the Legacy section under a Health subsection.}}  I agree that the text should be in the main body text (not in a footnote).  I don't think there is a ''lot ''of material to go there: the introduction/spread of diseases;  reckless/negligent (not deliberate);  Cook's ineffective attempts to prevent the spread.  One thing I cannot find a source for is "in Hawaii where apparently the legend is that Cooke deliberately spread it."  Do you have a source that documents that legend?  I've searched and cannot find a source. In any case, I'll start creating that new paragraph in the Legacy section soon. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:30, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] The passages I was thinking of were in Salmond (2003) [2004 in my Penguin edition] p 428. Also see p. 382 on Cook's alleged affair with a Hawaiian princess. On rereading it, I see that Salmond is saying that this tradition was started by American missionaries hostile to Cook and the British. These missionaries accused Cook of blasphemy (holding himself out as a god), fornication (sleeping with Hawaiians) and deliberately spreading VD. These views were then taken up by Hawaiian historians and woven into oral traditions. Salmond, Williams (pp. 142-148) and Thomas are good on how Hawaiian views of Cook changed under the influence of missionaries and later developments. The issues raised might be too complex for this article but there might be a case for a section on Cook Historiography. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:54, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
:I mentioned in an edit summary that I think the diseases should be wikilinked even if it may lead to a bit of a sea of blue. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 23:03, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

== Cook comments ==

Thanks again to Noleander and Thoughtidretired for significantly improving this article. Sorry I haven't had the time to help as much as I would have liked to but here are some comments and suggestions for possible further improvements.

=== Family ===
I think the details of the death of Nathaniel and George Cook would be better as a footnote to the sentence "Cook had no direct descendants..." rather than crammed into a list of children and dates. Do we not know how James and Elizabeth died?
:I added cause of death for son James;  moved all three causes of death into footnotes.  Could not find cause of death for Elizabeth. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:40, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

The verbal description of Cook at age 47 doesn't really fit into a section called "Family".
:Agree.  Temporarily commented out the paragraph, pending a decision of where to put it, or even whether to keep it.  The article already has two paintings of him, although those do not give readers his height.  Also, a textual description may be useful for users that are visually impaired. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:40, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] On further reflection, Samwell's verbal description of Cook fits well immediately after the paragraph about the crew on the Third Voyage. It's a shame for it to be deleted but I will leave the final decision to you. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:06, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

=== Death ===
On re-reading this, our account looks biased towards Cook and his crew. According to Beaglehole (pp 671-672) and Williams, the locals threatened Cook's party with daggers and stones when news arrived that one of their chiefs had been killed. Cook fired small shot as a warning but this enraged them more. They threw more stones and tried to stab one of Cook's party (Phillips). Cook then fired ball shot and killed a local. More stones were thrown, then the British opened fire (perhaps first from the boats, perhaps first the marines on shore). Perhaps Cook then ordered them to stop firing or perhaps he didn't. In any case, there was a melée and they tried to retreat to the boats. Cook was perhaps first clubbed then stabbed or just stabbed. The only eye witness we have (Phillips) says that he reached a boat and didn't know what happened to Cook. 4 marines were killed. At least one local was killed (but its hard to believe that more weren't). Williams gives the best overview of the conflicting accounts that I've read. esp pp 35-40.

I would be inclined to simplify this by something like: "News reached the Hawaiians that high-ranking Hawaiian chief Kalimu had been shot (on the other side of the bay) while trying to break through a British blockade – this exacerbated the already tense situation. Hawaiian warriors confronted the landing party and threatened them with stones, clubs and daggers. Cook fired a warning shot then shot one of the Hawaiians dead. The Hawaiians continued to attack and the British fired more shots before launching the boats to leave. Cook and four marines were killed in the affray and left on the shore. An unknown number of Hawaiians were killed."
:I incorporated the suggested text (from above), and added Williams as a source.  I also added more details to the existing footnote about "The accounts of the death are confusing and contradictory". [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:20, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

=== Navigation ===
This is fine, but I think we need a short section somewhere on Cook's seamanship. Undisputedly great, but Blainey (2020, pp. 189-94) has recently argued that there are "grave doubts" about Cook's seamanship leading up to the grounding on the Great Barrier Reef.

=== Leadership ===
The list of people who served under Cook and later had distinguished careers is probably original research because it implies, but does not prove by reliable secondary sources, that it was Cook's leadership that led to them having successful careers. A sub-section on leadership is warranted, but probably shouldn't come under the Legacy section. I think we need to discuss what reliable secondary sources say about Cook's leadership skills. Beaglehole and others praise Cook's leadership but are also candid about his failings in this regard, particularly on his third voyage.

There's also an issue of redundancy (we already mention them as crew members in earlier sections) and tangential information (we don't need a potted history of Bligh's career: the link does that).
:I agree that it could violate [[WP:OR]] polices, so secondary sources are required if the article is going to identify specific crew members.  I seem to recall that 2 or 3 biographies, near the end, have epilogue chapters that list such crew members.  The biographers probably do not use words like "Due to Cook's leadership skills, these crew members became successful..." but they certainly convey the assertion that Cook's influence on the crew improved the crew's skills.   Perhaps the section title should not be "Leadership" but something else like "Subsequent careers of crewmembers"   or something like that?  Bligh's journey could probably go in a footnote (or removed) ... tho if multiple Cook biographers include that journey in their biography of Cook, it may be permissible to include this WP article.  Great articles should be engaging and those sort of tidbits can contribute (but only if 2ndary RSs support it).   [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 19:10, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] I still have a problem with this. If we trace the careers of his crews, even briefly, we are straying from Cook onto another topic. It would be like a section tracing the subsequent history of the Hawaiians Cook met. We are also cherry-picking the crew members we are following. Why not mention John Williamson who many blame for Cook's death (he led the cutter away from Cook when he was signalling for help) but who subsequently was promoted rapidly until he was court martialled for misreading a signal at the Battle of Camperdown? Or John Rickman whose career was ruined because he accidently shot the chief on the other side of the bay? (See: {{Cite journal |last=Ashley |first=Scott |title=How Navigators Think: The Death of Captain Cook Revisited |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/25096661 |journal=Past and Present |volume=194 |issue=1 |via=JSTOR}}) [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:41, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
::If you think the section should be deleted, I have no problem with that. My point was simply that if several major biographers of Cook talk about his followers, then the Wikipedia article can also. But the section is not critical and can be deleted. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 07:12, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
:::I would prefer it was removed and perhaps replaced with footnotes added to the crew sections for each voyage. But I would be happy to wait for peer review and see what others think. I don't want to complicate the excellent work you are doing.  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 07:43, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
::::I removed the section and put the crew details for Bligh and Vancouver into footnotes; Dixon I omitted. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:33, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

=== Science ===
We mention Cook's accurate charting throughout the article but it would be nice if we could find a succinct quote from someone stating just how accurate they were. I think it is Blainey who writes about the accuracy of his charts for New Zealand and NSW and how they were used well into the 19th century. I will try to find it.

"Cook's contributions to knowledge gained international recognition during his lifetime..." The following quote from Benjamin Franklin isn't specific about Cook's contribution to science and knowledge, Franklin just calls him a friend of mankind.
:Changed the selection (from the letter by B. Franklin) to include words about science & geography, so it is more pertinent.  Move the revised quote into a footnote. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:42, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Are William Hodges' paintings science?
:Temporarily commented-out sentences about artists, pending determination if they belong in article, and - if so - where. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:42, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

=== Memorials ===
I don't think we need the the quote from the Obit in the Norwich Chronicle. Cook was a very famous man: Isn't there a more famous obituary in a better known publication? The whole section is a dog's breakfast: there must be dozens of more significant memorials to Cook than a shopping square in Middlesborough. I suggest that we just present the major memorials rather than giving the impression that we are aiming for an exhaustive list.

=== Culture ===
The section is completely inadequate. If there are "many literary creations" about Cook we should be able to come up with more than Slessor and a forgotten poem by a second-rate poet. "Cook has been depicted in numerous films, documentaries and dramas" is true, but the citations are not to high quality sources and only refer to three. This will not pass muster if reviewed for Good Article status. We need some reliable secondary sources discussing Cook's cultural legacy. They exist, and I am happy to draft something, but it will be a couple of weeks before I can get around to it.
:Agree.  Temporary commented-out entire "Culture" section until it can be assessed and re-written. New sources are probably needed - ideally secondary sources that already did the curation & analysis. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:44, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

=== Citation style ===
The article uses both sfn and full inline citations using the citation templates. I suspect a review for GA status will require a consistent citation style in accordance with policy. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 14:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]]  Thanks for the insightful and detailed suggestions.   They all look valuable and useful, and I'll work to incorporate them.  
:Regarding uniform citation format:  {{green|"The article uses both sfn and full inline citations using the citation templates. I suspect a review for GA status will require a consistent citation style in accordance with policy"}}: the MOS  only requires that the article have a sensible, uniform format for citations, but does not require that all citations be ''sfn'', or all be inline <nowiki><ref></nowiki>.  For example,  articles can use any of the  the following approaches to pass the [[WP:FA]]  review process:
:# Exclusively'' sfn/harvnb ''
:# Exclusively inline <nowiki><ref></nowiki>
:# Hybrid approach: '' sfn/harvnb''  for "major" sources that appear in the "Sources" section; otherwise use inline <nowiki><ref></nowiki> for minor or one-off sources 
:All these approaches are acceptable for [[WP:GA]] or [[WP:FA]] ... they vary in attractiveness, ease  of editing, and reader-friendliness.   Approach (3) may be optimal for this article, since ''sfn ''is more-or-less required for major books that are used by multiple citations;  yet the article ''also'' has several dozen minor, "one off" sources (e.g. newspapers, journal articles, etc) that are used only once.  Although ''sfn ''could be used for the latter,  readers are then required to click twice to reach  the source (and, also, the article's screen size gets larger).
:Thanks again for taking the time to provide outstanding, thoughtful suggestions!!  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 16:09, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

== Section title Memorials versus Commemorations? ==

The second title is currently Memorials, But I wonder if a better title would be Commemorations. That is a broader word, and would encompass things like reenactments and so on.  Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 05:34, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:Commemorations is good. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 08:02, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

== Source that provides estimated total number of indigenous killed? ==

The article has estimate of total number of Maori killed (9); and total number of Hawaii's killed on the 3rd voyage during the confrontation(s) surrounding Cooks death (17); but I cannot find a source that estimates the total number killed on all three voyages.  Does anyone know of such a source?  

Related: the Death section has "Seventeen Hawaiians were killed" ... but the article should probably make it clear if that number is (a) only deaths that occurred during the confrontation on shore in the hours surrounding Cook's death; or (b) also includes any deaths that happened in following day or two; or (c) total number from all visits to Hawaii.   [PS:  The source may already make it clear .... I'll  check the source myself soon; don't have time this instant] [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:53, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] Williams (2008) p 41 states: "seventeen islanders were killed at Kaawaloa [ie during the affray] the previous day, and another eight elsewhere." Beaglehole (1974) pp 674-675 states that the Hawaiians lost "four chiefs...and thirteen others" in "the wretched affray". According to Williams and Beaglehole other Hawaiians were killed in revenge attacks in the following days but they don't give a number. Thomas (2003) p. 401 quotes Captain Clerke as saying that "5 or 6" were killed by the British in revenge attacks but Thomas adds that he suspects this was an underestimate. As for the total number killed in Cook's voyages, Thomas writes (p 401): "In four days men off Cook's ships killed more Islanders (at least thirty) than they had over the preceding ten years (about fifteen)." I think the safest conclusion is that 17 Hawaiians were killed in the actual affray in which Cook was killed, another eight in other incidents on that day, and at least five or six in revenge attacks over the following three days. This gives "at least 30". Therefore the total "islanders" killed by Cook and his men during his three voyages is estimated by Thomas as at least 45. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:49, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
::Excellent, thanks. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:06, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] - Question:  Page 401 of Thomas says {{green|"In four days, men off Cook’s ships killed more Islanders (at least thirty) than they had over the preceding ten years (about fifteen)."}}.  It is not clear if the 15 figure is Hawaiians, or indigenous peoples in the Pacific.  The word "Islanders" is capitalized, so maybe he means 15 Hawaiians.  On the other hand, he says "preceding ten years" which suggests he means all indigenous from 1769 to 1779 (he only visited Hawaii in the final 13 months of that decade).  Other sources say he killed 9 Maori, total, so that would be consistent with the 15 indigenous. I looked in the "footnotes/sources" section at pp 442-443, but did find any clarification. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:06, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
::::I am sure the figure of 15 refers to all Pacific Islanders, including those of New Zealand. It is common in British English to capitalise "Islanders" to refer to Pacific Islanders. Also ten years covers the start of the first voyage so that is almost certainly what he is referring to. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:24, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::I'm in the process of adding this info into the Controversy section.  So far, tentatively, I've put this at the start of the section:
::::::Cook is a controversial figure due to his occasionally violent encounters with indigenous peoples, and allegations that he played a role in facilitating British colonialism. Cook and his crew killed an estimated 45 indigenous people during the three voyages: nine Māori, thirty Hawaiians during the days surrounding Cook's death, and about six others.[bd]
::::::Scholars continue to debate the extent to which Cook can be held accountable for the subsequent European colonization of the Pacific. Scholar Glyndwr Williams points out that, although Cook was only following orders from the Admiralty when he explored the coast of Australia on his first voyage, the orders explicitly required Cook to obtain consent of indigenous peoples before claiming the land for Britain – yet Cook claimed the east coast of Australia without obtaining consent.[271] A number of commentators argue that Cook enabled British imperialism and colonialism in the Pacific.[272][273][274][275][t]
:::::I'm still working on it, but if anyone has thoughts about wording, or which section it should go in, let's discuss. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:47, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::I think the wording is fine and the information about the death toll of indigenous people fits well in the Controversies section. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 02:58, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

== Cook author of "sailing directions" for St. L river? ==

The Canada section has this sentence: {{green|They collaborated on developing preliminary charts of the entrance to the Saint Lawrence River, with Cook most likely the author of sailing directions for the river, written in 1758.}}   Two questions (for @[[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ):
# Is there a source & page number for that sentence?  I see some cites in the following sentences, but I'm not sure if they apply to this one.
# The text ''"... with Cook most likely the author of sailing directions ..."'' may not be solid enough for the article. Who wrote the sailing directions? If it is unknown: which scholar is speculating that Cook wrote them?  What is the scholar's evidence?  Why are these sailing directions important?   Unless there is a fairly strong justification, it is probably prudent to omit the "sailing directions" text from the article.  

Speaking of speculations:  the article also has {{green|Historian Vanessa Collingridge speculates that this is where Cook first felt the lure of the sea while gazing out of the shop window.}} which is marginally suited for the article.  It is in the early life section, when Cook was a teenager, so it might be alright.  It has a solid source. Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:31, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

:The green highlighted quote given above is derived from Beaglehole, pp 37-39. The words are carefully chosen (and, just now, amended) to convey as briefly as possible what is described on these pages. Firstly, Beaglehole says (right at the bottom of pg 37) that the charts may just have been a "compilation" of charts already in the navy's possession. Over the page, Beaglehole goes on to explain that these charts were later amended as the "Quebec expedition" advanced up the river. So, me paraphrasing Beaglehole, they needed some sort of chart to begin the advance and amend as they were able to survey as they went along. The obvious caveat is that Beaglehole's description does include the word "possible", but conversely he is basing this part on Holland's memoirs.
:The sailing directions bit is again carefully phrased to match Beaglehole's reasoned identification of the writer of the sailing directions. He cites Cook's style, and the dating is based on a battery that was later completely destroyed and ceased to be a landmark. I have added a "the" to the article text to give emphasis to the date of the sailing directions. There are presumably ones of a later date.
:I fully accept that the absence of total certainty of Cook's involvement in these two activities may disqualify them from inclusion. However, since we side with the debunkers of the myth that Cook charted the whole St Lawrence on his own in the middle of winter when it was frozen over, we surely need to give the reader something to explain what Cook was doing at the time, even if we are dealing in probabilities. Beaglehole's reasoning on the sailing direction may be judged the stronger argument (he says: "It is possible, too, or probable, that to this period belongs the first example of 'sailing directions' by Cook".) [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 21:34, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
:And to answer {{tq|why were these sailing directions important?}}, I don't know if you have ever navigated a boat into a river that you are not familiar with (pre-GPS and without other electronic aids), but if someone with that experience had a choice between either charts or sailing directions, they might well choose the latter. The poorer quality the charts, the more important the sailing directions. Yes, this opinion could be labelled WP:OR, but I would hold it is a case of an editor having sufficient understanding of the subject to make a particular editing decision. Note, we are not saying in the article why sailing directions are important{{snd}}this is just whether or not we think their mention is important enough for inclusion in the article. Anyway, I am probably over-selling this... [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 21:50, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

== Peer review ==
{{Wikipedia:Peer review/James Cook/archive3}}
<!-- Please comment in the transcluded page, thanks! [[User:AnomieBOT]] 15:40, 5 June 2025 (UTC) -->

== Consolidate sentences that mention removal/destruction of statues? ==

The article has a few sentences that mention statues of Cook being removed or destroyed (and not replaced):
* "Two Australasian Cook monuments have been removed, one in Gisborne (New Zealand) in 2019, the other in Cairns (Australia) in 2022."
* "Attacks on public monuments to Cook also occurred in Canada and Australia."
*" A statue of James Cook in Victoria, BC, Canada – which was constructed in 1976 – was destroyed on Canada Day in 2021 by protestors drawing attention to the effects of the Canadian Indian residential school system"
The first two sentences (above) are in the ''Controversy ''section,; the last sentence is in the ''Commemorations ''section.  Both sections make sense, but I think readers would be better served if they were consolidated into one location/paragraph.  ''Controversy'' seems to be the best location, since it deals with the proposals to de-emphasize  or eliminate celebrations of Cook, etc.   That would mean removing the mention of the Canadian statue from ''Commemorations ''section ... which would result in the ''Canada ''subsection (within ''Commemorations ''section) disappearing, unless other (significant) commemorations exist in Canada.  Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 12:46, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:Also:  [[user:CEBrennan]] recently added the sentence:  "Two Australasian Cook monuments have been removed, one in Gisborne (New Zealand) in 2019, the other in Cairns (Australia) in 2022." .  I cannot access the source, but both statues are perhaps pieces of kitsch artwork?  If so, they may not be sufficiently important to mention; especially if the removal was not related to serious indigenous decolonization efforts. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:27, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
::The source used for the "two  statutes removed" sentence is:       
::* Brennan, Claire; Stevenson, Ana (2025-05-01). "Monumentally Kitsch: The Decommissioned Captain Cook Statues of Aotearoa (New Zealand) and Australia". Radical History Review. 2025 (152): 32–52. doi:10.1215/01636545-11609996. ISSN 0163-6545. Retrieved 6 June 2025.
::and the editor that added it is [[user:CEBrennan]], perhaps an author of the article.  Not an issue, just noting for reference. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 17:08, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
::The claim that they were removed due to being [[kitsch]] is the opinion of the author rather than an indisputable fact. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 07:08, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
::I have removed the reference because the issue of kitsch is not the point of the section. The Cairns statue was always a bit of a joke just like The Big Pineapple etc. It was removed not because of protests over decolonisation but because the site was sold to the local university for its expansion. The new owner said he might re-erect it but it is made out of wood and not in good condition. The Gisbourne statue is already discussed in the section. And the point of the section is not to list all monuments that have been removed or attacked, it is to raise the underlying issues of protest and decolonisation. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 08:21, 7 June 2025 (UTC) {{od}}
Returning to the original issue posed in this section of the Talk page:  I did take action, and consolidated all the statue-related sentences into a single location: the Controversy section. That means the Canada subsection (within Commemoration section) is now gone.

Looking at the statue text in Controversy section:  The sentences are rather ugly & I don't think many readers will care about all the fine details (city list, country list).  Maybe the list of cities/countries with statues (that were removed/vandalized) can be pushed down into a footnote .... and the body text should instead have couple insightful, professional sentences that summarize  the motivations/goals of those pushing for removal.    Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:14, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

:Statues get vandalised quite a lot, I'd maybe focus on those which were seriously damaged to warrant costly repairs. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 21:07, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

== Wording for debate that Cook enabled colonialism ==

The article uses the word allegation/alleged three times:
# "...there were public calls for their removal or modification due to their alleged promotion of colonialist narratives."
# "...he remains a controversial figure because of his  violent encounters with indigenous peoples, and allegations that he facilitated  British colonialism in the Pacific."
# "... Cook is a controversial figure due several violent encounters with indigenous peoples, and allegations that he played a role in facilitating British colonialism"
The word "allegation" in not ideal, since it typically used in a legal context.  Not sure if anything is better.  Maybe
*  "purported role in enabling colonialsm"
*  "suggestions that he enabled colonialism"
*  "claims that he enabled colonialism"   - Not great: "claim" may imply it is not accurate
*  "concerns over his role in colonialism "
*  " his role in enabling colonialism"   - Remove any qualifier
Any thought or suggestions are appreciated. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:41, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
: I don't think "legal English" has any exclusive claim to the word "alleged". The Times newspaper '''today''': (talking about a politician and definitely with no legal implications) "He even mocked his own alleged aversion to being in the spotlight."[https://www.thetimes.com/article/40a0c37b-4e97-419d-a2e8-843392a7d3a9] and "Yoti says its AI algorithm, which has been trained on millions of faces, can estimate the age of 13-24 year olds within 2 years of accuracy, allegedly better than human judgement."[https://www.thetimes.com/article/69117b3c-7333-4b52-8b41-dfda68c3dbd7].
:The OED definition of the modern usage (4.0) is "To claim (something unproven) as true; to assert or affirm without proof, or pending proof; to make an allegation about someone or something. In later use frequently with reference to illicit or illegal behaviour." I think that fits with the usage in the article.
:{{tq|Purported}} is less widely understood (I suggest) but the OED defines it as "Professed, alleged", with the second definition producing a circular argument here.
:{{tq|suggestions that he enabled colonialism}} seems to rather side with those who think he did not enable colonialism, so not neutral.
:{{tq|"claim" may imply it is not accurate}}{{snd}}Agree, this is a less neutral word when we need to be as neutral as possible.
:{{tq|concerns over his role in colonialism}} implies that his role in colonialism is accepted, when we know that some sources do  not think he was a significant element of colonialism.
:{{tq|his role in enabling colonialism}}. There is no agreement in RSs as to the extent to which he is responsible for the colonialism that followed his activities.
:Surely most readers will be aware that "X alleges Y is true" is describing a statement being made that may or may not be true. The word is usually used when the writer is looking for complete neutrality on whether or not the allegation is true. I think it is the best choice. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 22:20, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
::There is even more non-legal use of "alleged" in today's Times: "...found in places signposted from the highway on the grounds of their alleged historical significance..."[https://www.thetimes.com/article/1b1abcaa-68fb-48e2-81e0-1d77b6b20ff5], and that's the assistant literary editor; and "we headed south to ancient Babylon, which was allegedly the world’s biggest city"[https://www.thetimes.com/article/9547f638-330b-44a5-b901-4b0882c2906f]. Note that (a) both are discussing history (b) there are other non-legal examples. So the concern that the word has strong legal connotations appear to be illusory. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 22:31, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
:::[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch|MOS:ALLEGED]] states "Words such as ''supposed, apparent, alleged'', and ''purported'' can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although ''alleged'' and ''accused'' are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined..." In this case we are dealing with a kind of wrongdoing which hasn't been proven so I think alleged is OK. There was some debate about this a couple of years ago and the result was tortuous compromise prose which has thankfully been simplified. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:49, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::Sounds good, thanks for  that link.  I think I found the specific wording that was bothering me: it is #3 above.   I changed it to be: ''"... and allegations that he facilitated British colonialism in the Pacific. "''   https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_Cook&diff=1294322637&oldid=1294305716  
:::::Reasoning for this change to #3:  I think it is indisputable that Cook played ''a role'' in colonization (discovering, claiming land for king, ignoring the order to get consent of indigenous, etc).  Maybe it was a tiny role, maybe unintentional role ... but he did play a role.  The debate is whether he can be held responsible for colonization; or whether he desired it; or whether he "facilitated" it.   In any case, the encyclopedia's voice should not say or imply that Cook had ''no'' role in the entire process of colonization.  Other than that, the word "allegations" seems adequate and accurate. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:21, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::What do the sources state exactly? [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 21:08, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::About Cook's role in colonization?   Not sure, I have not yet started looking for sources.  
:::::::The article already contains this sentence: {{green|In the lead-up to the commemorations, various memorials to Cook in Australia and New Zealand were vandalised, and there were public calls for their removal or modification due to their '''alleged '''promotion of colonialist narratives.[280][281] (Emphasis added). }}    But those cites are minor news reports.
:::::::The article also has {{green|Cook is a controversial figure due several violent encounters with indigenous peoples, and '''allegations '''that he facilitated British colonialism. (Emphasis added).}}   But that sentence has no citations at all. 
:::::::The article already has a few sources that talk about the allegations, such as Tombs (an opinion piece in a newspaper) and Proctor (an art historian).  Some of his major biographies, especially the newer ones, have discussion of his role in colonization, but they tend to be superficial, amounting to a few sentences ... at least they are a good starting point.
:::::::I'm hoping to find additional, in-depth sources by an academics/scholars, or by a notable proponent of statue removal.  Do you have any suggestions? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:23, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::::I took a look at three Heritage New Zealand reports related to Cook and got these 'There is potential for the Cook Monument to be used more extensively for public education, as an important part of the Cook Landing Site, where the European exploration and colonisation of New Zealand began' [https://www.heritage.org.nz/list-details/3473/Cook%20Monument] and 'To previous generations of Pakeha Cook has been seen as the 'true' founder of New Zealand, the Englishman who discovered the islands and thus made them available for colonisation by the British. As James Belich said, 'Cook was the first of a Pakeha pantheon of deified ancestors'. Such a portrayal of him led to the creation of numerous memorials built in his honour throughout New Zealand. Current opinion about Cook, however, ranges from his continued deification to a view of him as an agent of colonisation.' [https://www.heritage.org.nz/list-details/1860/Cook%20Statue] 'Though his legacy is complex and contested, he is nevertheless acknowledged as one of the most influential figures in Aotearoa/New Zealand and international history, both for his individual qualities and achievements and as a representative of ideas and themes around exploration and discovery, Enlightenment-era scientific endeavour and colonisation.' [https://www.heritage.org.nz/list-details/9900/Listing]
::::::::Otherwise I don't know any particular place to look beyond just focusing on academic sources. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 23:32, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Thanks for providing those links! [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:39, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::I would return to the earlier, simpler version of this section:
::::::::::The period 2018 to 2021 marked the 250th anniversary of Cook's first voyage of exploration. Several countries, including Australia and New Zealand, arranged official events to commemorate the voyage, leading to widespread public debate about Cook's legacy and the violence associated with his contacts with Indigenous peoples.[2][3] In the lead-up to the commemorations, various memorials to Cook in Australia and New Zealand were vandalised, and there were public calls for their removal or modification due to their alleged promotion of colonialist narratives.[4][5] There were also campaigns for the return of Indigenous artefacts taken during Cook's voyages.[6][d] Attacks on public monuments to Cook have continued in a number of countries.[8][9][10][11]
::::::::::Alice Proctor argues that the controversies over public representations of Cook and the display of Indigenous artefacts from his voyages are part of a broader debate over the decolonisation of museums and public spaces and resistance to colonialist narratives.[12] A number of commentators argue that Cook enabled British imperialism and colonialism in the Pacific.[2][12][13][14][e]
::::::::::Robert Tombs has defended Cook, arguing: "He epitomised the Age of Enlightenment in which he lived" and in conducting his first voyage "was carrying out an enlightened mission, with instructions from the Royal Society to show 'patience and forbearance' towards native peoples".[15]"
::::::::::This summarises the issues concisely without undue focus on specific examples (such as the Canadian example tearing down a statue of Cook during a protest about Catholic Indigenous schools--which Cook had nothing to do with) and without unnecessarily going into the specifics of the multitude of different arguments for and against Cook as a coloniser and for and against tearing down statues of him. The recent attempts to expand this section will lead us down a rabbit hole of people adding the latest act of vandalism/legitimate direct action or the latest piece of post-modernist cultural criticism by some minor academic (eg kitsch statues.) The basic issue is simple: Cook was a major explorer who increased scientific knowledge of the world and deserves to be commemorated v Cook was a violent coloniser and all memorials to him in settler colonies should be removed. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:32, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::As a compromise, I have removed the discussion of the Canadian case which gives it undue weight. Details of individual attacks should be in footnotes for the reasons I stated above..  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:41, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::There are still problems with the wording, viz:
:::::::::::'''"Cook is a controversial figure due several violent encounters with indigenous peoples, and allegations that he facilitated British colonialism."''' 
:::::::::::'''Scholars continue to debate the extent to which Cook can be held responsible for the subsequent European colonisation of the Pacific. A number of commentators argue that Cook enabled British imperialism and colonialism in the Pacific."'''
:::::::::::This is very repetitive. We are saying three time that some people think Cook was responsible for colonialism.
:::::::::::'''"Cook and his crew killed an estimated 45 indigenous people during the three voyages, including nine Māori and thirty Hawaiians."''' True, but it lacks balance. If we are going to quote this isolated estimate, we need to attribute it to Thomas in text and put it in the context of his entire argument. Once again, probably beyond the scope of this section.
:::::::::::"'''Historian [[Glyndwr Williams]] points out that the Admiralty's orders to Cook on the first voyage explicitly required Cook to obtain consent of indigenous peoples before claiming the land for Britain – yet Cook claimed the east coast of Australia without securing their consent."'''
:::::::::::This is true, but the context makes it sound like Williams is one of those arguing that Cook was a colonialist. he isn't. If we are going to put this isolated fragment in we need to accurately summarise his entire argument: a task beyond this section.
:::::::::::"Historian [[Robert Tombs]] defended Cook against accusations that '''he initiated British imperialism in the Pacific''', arguing that European influence in the region was inevitable, and that Cook was more humane and enlightened than most of his contemporaries. Tombs suggested that blaming Cook for 21st century racism and inequities is facile and avoids addressing the underlying social issues."
:::::::::::Probably a fair summary, although I don't think anyone is arguing that Cook initiated colonisation in the Pacific. There were several before him. Tomes is probably given undue weight in this context. It was previously balanced against the Proctor discussion.
:::::::::::I don't mean to be hypercritical. I am just trying to point out that we face a choice between a very concise overview of the main issue versus more detailed summaries of the position prominent commentators take on the issue.  [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:09, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::No worries, you're not being hypercritical ... you're being a good editor.  I agree that the Controversy section requires a lot of work: it is far, far from being complete, neutral, and engaging. It is a work in progress, and can be a lot better. I'm a firm believer in [[Wikipedia:Ownership of content|the anyone-can-edit]] philosophy, so I hope anyone with ideas for improvements jumps in!  Gathering more sources is always a good starting point. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:30, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::... And if anyone has suggestions for improvements, but they're short on time, I'll be happy to help implement the suggestions. Let me know what should be changed and what the sources are and I'll take it from there. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:55, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
::'Alleges' is fine. The word being used thrice over a reasonably sized article is not terrible. [[User:Willthorpe|Will Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Willthorpe|talk]]) 08:26, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

== Speculation that Cook's son faked his own death ==

I added these words to the footnote re death of Cook's first son:
 Son James was appointed commander of sloop Spitfire in January 1794 and died soon thereafter in an open boat accident near the Isle of Wight. '''A researcher speculated that the son faked his own death.'''
Source is a ''Times'' book review at 
* https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/captain-cooks-son-was-navy-deserter-who-faked-his-own-death-gxmvzpc0t
of book
* https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Untold_Story_of_Captain_James_Cook_R/zX_-EAAAQBAJ 
Already I'm regretting adding this, since the source is merely a non-academic historical researcher who came up with an interesting theory.  It seemed important five minutes ago, because it suggests Captain Cook may have descendants.  I'll probably delete it.  But at least the source is documented here in the Talk page for future reference. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:15, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

:The author of the book tried to add this last year and the consensus was not to include it as it is fringe. [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories]]. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:29, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
::Interesting about the author.  Thanks for deleting it. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 22:30, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
:[https://www.captaincooksociety.com/remembering-cook/books/book-reviews/the-untold-story-of-captain-james-cook-colin-waters-2023 Another review]. Not worth mentioning even as a rumour I think. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 06:52, 9 June 2025 (UTC)

== Places named after Cook ==

@[[User:Alexeyevitch|Alexeyevitch]] I changed [[Aoraki / Mount Cook]] to just [[Mount Cook]] for that section as the relevant part is not the mountain but rather the name. Including the Maori name may imply that it is also related to Captain Cook when it isn't. This done in other articles e.g. [[Ōhinerau / Mount Hobson]] when the focus is the etymology of a name. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 07:00, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
:Well, I figured to use the common name here (article title is Aoraki / Mount Cook). I see no good reason to remove the Māori name, or the common name. <span style="font-family:cursive;color:darkblue;cursor:help"><span>[[User:Alexeyevitch|Alexeyevitch]]</span><sup>([[User talk:Alexeyevitch|talk]])</sup></span> 08:03, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
::Well I gave a good reason, to avoid any confusion. [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 08:08, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

== Position of "Family" section ... move to near bottom? ==

A peer reviewer suggested that the Family section seemed out of place, since there was an abrupt jump from 1755 (end of "Early Life" section) to 1762 (marriage); then jumps back to 1755 (start of "Canada" section).

Cook got married in 1762, which was - unfortunately for this article - right  in the middle of the Canada phase of his career.  So, if we wanted to go chronologically, maybe the Family section should be after the Canada section?  

Another solution is to devote the Upper 90% of the article body to Cook's career, and put the "personal life" details near the bottom.  To see how that would  look, I have ''tentatively ''moved the "Family" section down to lower in article, above the  "Arms" section. This is a tentative  change only, for evaluation.  I had to disable the image of Cooks wife since it encroached on Arms section. 

Possible positions include: 
# Leave in original location, after Early Life; before Canada
# After Canada section
# Near bottom of article, above Arms section (with or without picture of wife? Image  badly encroaches on Arms section)
# Some other location?

Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 20:35, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

:I would put the Family section immediately before Legacy. If we are going to mention which church he went to then perhaps calling the section Private Life or something similar might be better. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:25, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
::Personal life perhaps? [[User:Traumnovelle|Traumnovelle]] ([[User talk:Traumnovelle|talk]]) 23:39, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
:::Done.  Moved to immed before Legacy section.  Renamed to "Personal life", which is a fairly common section name used in WP for biographical articles (and makes it easier to add miscellaneous non-career information in the future, should the need arise).   
:::The image of Cook's wife is still disabled in this new location, because it would impinge on the pic of the K1 Chronometer in the following Legacy/Navigation section.  Conceivably, we could restore the image of his wife by re-arranging subsections within Legacy, but no need to resolve that now ... can wait a bit and see if the new "Personal life" section location sticks. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 23:45, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
::::Portrait of wife restored and enlarged to same size as Hodges portrait of Cook above.  K1 looks after itself, I think. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 10:01, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

== Proposal to condense Commemorations section  ==

A suggestion from a recent Peer Reviewer says that the Commemorations seems a bit too big, I tend to agree.  Seems like the only way to condense it is to remove some of the minor monuments/commemorations.  The minor ones could be deleted entirely, or pushed down into footnotes (and perhaps deleted at a later date, after editors have had time to view the results).  Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 16:13, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

:I, for one, do not see the need. These commemorations and their breadth are reflective of Cook's cultural significance [[User:Willthorpe|Will Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Willthorpe|talk]]) 16:16, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
::Could you be more specific:  what dividing line are you proposing for which commemorations are included, and which are included (I'm sure there are scores that are not yet included in the article).   See [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]].
::What do you think of creating a new sub-article to contain 100% of the commemoration info, and then adjust the Commemorations section in this article per [[Wikipedia:Summary style]] and [[WP:DETAIL]]?
::For reference, see [[List of places named for Christopher Columbus]] and [[List of monuments and memorials to Christopher Columbus]] [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 16:51, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
:::I discovered that there is already a list article [[List of places named after James Cook]].   I just created [[List of commemorations of Captain James Cook]], and simply copied the section from this article ([[James Cook#Commemorations]] ) into it.  It may be wisest to mimic the approach used in [[Christopher_Columbus#Commemoration]], where a place name list is not found at all in the main article, but there is a summary discussion of commemoratiosn ... the latter is prose, not a list.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 21:14, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
::::Now that the [[List of commemorations of Captain James Cook]] article has been created, I'm planning on condensing the Commemorations section (per [[WP:Summary style]]) to contain some top-level prose ... and provide a "main" link to direct readers to  [[List of commemorations of Captain James Cook]] for further details & exhaustive lists of monuments.  As mentioned above, this is following the useful pattern seen at [[ Christopher_Columbus#Commemoration]]. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:46, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
:I support this. Good work! [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 08:32, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
::Aye, good concept! [[User:Willthorpe|Will Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Willthorpe|talk]]) 05:29, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

== Better sources for Controversy section (overlap with Commemoration section) ==

I'm starting to search for better sources for the Controversy section (a topic which has a lot of overlap with the Commemoration section, since much of the controversy involves monuments)   I've found a handful of academic sources, so - if all goes well - these can be used for some material in lieu of the newspapers articles that form much of the current content in  the Controversy section.  

I've found several journal articles.   An interesting source is the chapter "The uses of Captain Cook: early exploration in the public history of Aotearoa New Zealand and Australia " in the book ''Rethinking settler colonialism''.  The author is  [[Nicholas Thomas (anthropologist)]]. It is chapter 7 in :
  title={Rethinking settler colonialism: History and memory in Australia, Canada, Aotearoa New Zealand and South Africa},
  author={Coombes, A.},
  isbn={9781526121547},
  series={Studies in Imperialism},
  url={https://books.google.com/books?id=-28CEAAAQBAJ},
  year={2017},
  publisher={Manchester University Press}

[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:16, 12 June 2025 (UTC)

== Adding citations to Thomas: '' Cook: The Extraordinary Voyages of Captain James Cook'' ==

A peer reviewer suggested relying more on recent sources, and de-emphasizing older sources such as Beaglehole and Hough (since they did not have access to as much primary source material as post-2000 authors).   That seems wise ... also because the more recent authors are more likely to incorporate more information about viewpoints of and impact to indigenous peoples.  So, I'm adding some citations from Nelson Thomas' book  ''Cook: The Extraordinary Voyages of Captain James Cook''.  When done, I'll make a second pass through the article to see if any of the Beaglehole or Hough citations are redundant, and can be deleted. In some cases, the older sources will be retained, because they may have some insight or fact that the newer source(s) do not.  Until that second pass, there may be some redundant citations. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 14:41, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
::I have concerns about de-emphasising older sources as a matter of principle. In some subject areas, there is a definitive source or set of sources that covers a subject so completely that there is little room in the market for a publisher to put out any new works on the subject. Cook is such a high profile figure that there will always be new books, but many of these rely on the older sources (such as Beaglehole) for their material. In some instances, this can lead to a game of Chinese whispers, where the original source is  subject to a sort of "genetic drift" away from its intent. 
::Certainly, academic authors who use Cook as a source on ship-handling (for instance) go straight to Beaglehole. For example an academic book review in the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology cites Beaglehole as evidence to support the thesis in the reviewed book that a brig had better sailing properties than a schooner.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Batchvarov |first1=Kroum |title=The Merchant Ship in the British Atlantic, 1600–1800: Continuity and Innovation in a Key Technology |journal=International Journal of Nautical Archaeology |date=3 July 2021 |volume=50 |issue=2 |pages=403–406 |doi=10.1080/10572414.2021.1987716}}</ref> I find it strange that Wikipedia feels that "old is necessarily bad". If there is an update in thinking or if there is new research, new publications should be used. But where an older work has exactly the same content as a new one, there is no reason to swap out the old source. Any changes should only be made with careful examination of the reasons on a case by case basis. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] <sub> [[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|TIR]]</sub> 20:00, 14 June 2025 (UTC)
:::No worries, when the peer reviewer made that comment, they were specifically focusing on topics that were somewhat subjective (opinion of Forster, views on indigenous peoples, Cook's personality, etc).  The peer reviewer stated, accurately, that scholars that write  newer sources have access to (a) more primary materials that have been uncovered/published;  and (b) access to recent scholarship (anthropology, ethnography, linguistics, etc) that were unavailable in the 1970s. If there are two sources that ''both'' contain the same fact/information, it doesn't really matter which one is used.  Re {{green|Any changes should only be made with careful examination of the reasons on a case by case basis.}} ...  I agree, and that is what I'm doing.    And I'm not suggesting a limit of one source per fact/sentence: in many instances, it benefits readers to supply multiple citations for a single fact/sentence ... ''when each source provides a unique perspective or insight''.  [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 00:02, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
:{{Reflist-talk}}

== New "Health & Disease"  subsection under "Legacy" section ==

A topic that is not yet in the article is [[sexually transmitted diseases]].   Since a critical part of that topic involves the long-term ramifications after the voyages, it probably  belongs in the Legacy section.   The Legacy section currently has two subsections (among others) named "Science" and "Navigation". The Science section already has a paragraph about [[scurvy]], which is a disease.

To accommodate the new STD topic, I propose to re-organize the "Science" and "Navigation" subsections into these two subsections:
* '''Science and Navigation''' - Navigation, chronometer, anthropology, ethnology, linguistics, botany, etc
*''' Health and disease''' - Scurvy; hygeine/health of crew;  STDs (introduction to indigenous peoples, Cook's attempts to prevent transmission, etc)
This would not involve deleting any material:  simply renaming sections  and moving a couple of paragraphs.   Again, the purpose is to create a subsection to hold a few new sentences (not yet in article) about STDs.
Thoughts? [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 18:43, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

:To help visualize what it would look like, I made the change in the article. The new STD material is six sentences.  The new subsections within Legacy section are:
:* [[James_Cook#Health_and_disease]]
:* [[James_Cook#Navigation_and_science]]
:If anyone sees a way to improve the text or organization, let me know. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 21:41, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

== Closed Peer Review; planning to nominate for Good Article soon ==

I closed the Peer Review .. it had great input from two reviewers.  I'm planning to nominate for Good Article soon.  I think the article is in pretty good shape for GA.  The only thing I can see that needs work (for GA status) is the Controversy section: it is not very cohesive, and does not have a professional flow - but the GA reviewer may find it satisfactory; and if the GA reviewer is not satisfied, they may be able to specify particular improvements.  If anyone sees something in the article that is definitely not GA-quality, let me know. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 02:56, 17 June 2025 (UTC)
{{Talk:James Cook/GA1}}

== Cook's temperament on Third Voyage ==



Well done to @[[User:Noleander|Noleander]] and all others involved in getting this article to GA status which is thoroughly deserved.

However, I am still concerned about the article's coverage of this issue. It currently states:

Some early biographers of Cook speculated that he became increasingly frustrated and irritable on this voyage: exhibiting irrational behaviour towards his crew, such as forcing them to eat walrus meat, which they considered inedible. However, other historians have rejected the suggestion, arguing  that Cook's temperament on his final voyage was no different than on earlier voyages.{{sfn|Thomas|2003|pp=332–333,376–377.  Thomas identifies Beaglehole as a biographer that mistakenly suggested that Cook became unusually weary on the third voyage}}{{sfn|Salmond|2003|pp=xxiii,319,393}}{{sfn|Hough|1994|pp=328,331–333,363–364}}

I would say the overwhelming consensus of scholarship is that Cook became increasingly angry, harsh and irrational on his third voyage and there is no difference between older and more recent scholarship on this point. For example, Thomas states in the cited pages that Beaglehole's view of "a tired, angry, violent and irrational Cook" on the third voyage "is widely repeated perhaps most surprisingly by postcolonial scholars". So Thomas is dissenting from a view which he admits is held by most recent (ie postcolonial) scholars. Williams (2008) p 10 states that by January 1779 "Cook was a weary, disappointed, and possibly quite sick man." He also states: "In the North Pacific [on his third voyage] he would be faced with new problems and dangers. They were met resolutely and, and mostly overcome but at a cost to Cook's judgement that in the end resulted in violence and death." (p 8) Williams (pp. 8-9) and Salmond (2003/2004) pp 392-394 highlight the increase in floggings on Cook's third voyage and Cook's stubborn insistence that the crew follow his health regime which almost led to mutiny. Salmond concludes: "Far from being 'cool' and 'rational' Cook had become 'hot tempered' and 'passionate' (in anger, at least)." John Robson in the Captain Cook Encyclopaedia (2004, p 19) writes: "However, any assessment of the [third] voyage must consider Cook, whose age, poor health and tiredness led to erratic behaviour, and actions on this voyage not witnessed before."

I would rewrite this paragraph along the lines of: "Most scholars consider that Cook became increasingly 'tired, angry, violent and irrational' during the third voyage.[Thomas (2003) p 332]. Tensions between Cook and his crew increased, his reprisals against crew and Indigenous people were harsher, and some officers began to question his judgement."[Salmond (2003). pp. 392-394] [Williams (2008) pp. 8-10]. (Perhaps Thomas's dissenting view can be placed in a footnote [[Wikipedia:WEIGHT]]. However, his argument does not square with the figures of floggings which he also quotes and his statement that more islanders were killed in Hawaii than in his three voyages up to then.) 

Happy to discuss       [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

:You're analysis looks sound.  I also felt that that paragraph was not as precise as it could be.   Your suggested text looks like it is an accurate reflection of what the sources say.  I'm happy to insert the text, or you can, if you want.   One change I'd make: I'd avoid including the quoted phrase 'tired, angry, violent and irrational' ... quotes should only be used _very_ rarely; generally it is better to paraphrase in the encyclopedia's voice.  In this case, it may be as simple as using those four adjectives directly, without quote marks. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 04:46, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
::I've fiddled around with the wording and citations. You might like to run an eye over it. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 07:22, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
:I believe that there should be a brief elaboration on his reprisals against crew and Indigenous people, which I presume means the Hawaiians. [[User:Willthorpe|Will Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Willthorpe|talk]]) 10:55, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
::Agree that the article could benefit from some more details on punishments/reprisals/kidnapping.  Many sources discuss it. Salmond even has list of every documented flogging incident.  But rather than mention it in the "Third Voyage" section, my concept is:
::# Rename "Family life" section to "Character and family"
::# Add one or two new paragraphs into that section that summarize Cook's personality and character 
::# Sources say, for example:   self-control, stoic, quiet, strict, fair, celibate (when voyaging), etc.
::# Included in those new paragraphs would be a sentence or two summarizing his approach to punishments/reprisals: both to crew and to indigenous.
::I'm working on a draft of these proposed paragraphs now.  
::In contrast, the existing text about  ''"Most scholars consider that Cook became increasingly tired, harsh and volatile on this voyage..." p''robably should stay where it is in the 3rd Voyage section, since that particular behavior was just in the couple of years of his life. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 12:56, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
:::I am alright with this approach. Let us see what Aemilius Adolphin's position is. Cheers, [[User:Willthorpe|Will Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Willthorpe|talk]]) 13:21, 20 June 2025 (UTC)