View source for Talk:Italian lira

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==Math==
According to the article:
# 1 lira (0.052 Eurocent; rarely used)
# 2 lire (0.0103 cent; rarely used).

This means that that one lira is worth approxiamtely five times two lire. Someone should attempt to fix the math. [[User:72.194.193.198|72.194.193.198]] 22:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Should the line in the 'History' section, which reads; "All the two characteristics have been adopted by the Euro coin." be replaced by: "Both of these characteristics have been adopted by the Euro coin."?

==Fair use rationale for Image:1lira1863front.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]].

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->[[User:Betacommand|Betacommand]] <sup>([[User talk:Betacommand|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Betacommand|contribs]] • [[User:BetacommandBot|Bot]])</sup> 23:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

==Fair use rationale for Image:1lira1863front.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]].

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->[[User:Betacommand|Betacommand]] <sup>([[User talk:Betacommand|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Betacommand|contribs]] • [[User:BetacommandBot|Bot]])</sup> 01:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

==Fair use rationale for Image:1lira1863front.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]].

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 15:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

==Fair use rationale for Image:1lira1863front.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 03:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

==Fair use rationale for Image:1lira1863front.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:1lira1863front.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 15:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

== Italian Lira conundrum ==

Can anyone answer this...if the Italian lira went out of circulation in 2002 when the euro was introduced, why is the lira still quoted on the London Stock Exchange?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.68.15.182|82.68.15.182]] ([[User talk:82.68.15.182|talk]]) 17:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Fair use rationale for Image:2000 Lire Italy.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:2000 Lire Italy.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in '''this''' Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:2000 Lire Italy.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale2 -->

[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] ([[User talk:BetacommandBot|talk]]) 03:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

== Production of the 1 and 2 lire ==

"Large volume production of the 1 and 2 lire coins ceased in 1959"

After 1959 1 & 2 lire coinage stopped. It begun again in 1968 but only for "collector set". 

References are:
* http://digilander.libero.it/maggioref/shortguide%202nd%20part.html

and italian manuals:

* Eupremio Montenegro. Manuale del collezionista di monete italiane . , Torino. 
* Fabio Gigante. Monete italiane dal '700 ad oggi. , Varese. 

--[[User:Carlomorino|Carlo Morino]] aka [[:it:discussioni utente:Carlomorino|zi' Carlo]] 10:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

== Reintroduction ==

[[Berlusconi]] wants to increase exports and cannot devalue Italy's currency without leaving the [[Euro]]. He is threatening or promising to explore REINTRODUCING THE LIRA. At this stage, with some support from Paris/[[Sarkozy]] he is probably only SAYING this to put pressure on the ECB in Frankfurt. The article makes no mention of this, or are these developments too insubstantial to be "encyclopaedic".

Since lots of lira coins, and possibly notes are still out there in households and are exchangable for Euros until 2012, old coins could still be used after a reintroduction if the designs are kept the same. Changing them and invalidating the old ones completely would presumably cause a scandal. I have few thousand Lira in coins and I'm not in Italy!

http://www.eurointelligence.com/article.581+M595ca3cc327.0.html

--[[Special:Contributions/81.105.243.17|81.105.243.17]] ([[User talk:81.105.243.17|talk]]) 15:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

== The 1997 1000 Lire coin ==

Would it be appropriate to mention in this article the errors made in the first issue of the 1997 bimetallic 1000 Lire coin. This coin depicted a stylised map of Europe to celebrate increasing European union but separated West and East Germany (which was still shown merged into an Eastern Bloc with Poland), and also included Holland and Denmark within the same outline as West Germany. Following protests a new coin was issued which corrected these points. I'm not quite sure what counts as a reliable source material for this, although it is mentioned on a number of sites: 
http://www.iltrogolo.it/Attila/coins/1000_lire.htm
http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1997/january_10_1997_174725.html
http://www.maphist.nl/ill/1997b15.htm
http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=1647&universeid=105&type=1
http://www.historyorb.com/events/date/1997
Additionally, I have a number of the coins in question myself.
[[User:Ma1cius|Ma1cius]] ([[User talk:Ma1cius|talk]]) 15:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

== Mint Marks ==

There needs to be a section on the mints used before the current mint in Rome (est. 1922). With there mint marks kinds of coins etc.. minted and where / when noteable occurences happened to them!--[[User:Ant2242|Ant2242]] ([[User talk:Ant2242|talk]]) 03:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

== 1990s collapse and levy ==

In reporting of the [[2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis]], Foxnews [http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/16/how-can-do-that-look-at-cyprus-decision-to-tax-depositors/ says] ".. in the 1990s, Italy levied a tax on every bank account to stave off the collapse of its lire currency. The rate, however, was minuscule — 0.06 percent ..". Does anyone know when this happened?  See also [[Talk:Bank deposit levy]]. --<span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] <sup>'''([[User talk:John Vandenberg|chat]])'''</sup></span> 21:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
===Eurotassa===
Do you mean this? https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributo_straordinario_per_l'Europa [[Special:Contributions/194.95.59.130|194.95.59.130]] ([[User talk:194.95.59.130|talk]]) 10:18, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

===Cognate words===
In the second paragraph of this article, the words “pound” and “lira” are called “cognates.” That doesn’t agree with the definition and examples in Wikipedia’s own article “Cognate.” The words “pound” and “lira” are rather translations of each other, or, more accurately, are descended from such translations.
[[Special:Contributions/79.205.96.62|79.205.96.62]] ([[User talk:79.205.96.62|talk]]) 10:32, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

== What Coin Did the 1861 Replace? ==

The article offers no information on what currency the lira replaced when it came into use in 1861.  That information should be added. [[User:Abenr|Abenr]] ([[User talk:Abenr|talk]]) 00:34, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

== L. as the typical abbreviation for Lira in Italy: Bold, revert, discuss ==

[[File:ITA 1944 MiNr0664 pm B002a.jpg|thumb|upright|Italian postage stamp (1944) that uses the two-bar ₤ form]]
Per [[WP:BRD]], I have reverted [[wp:BOLD]] edit by {{u|TheCurrencyGuy}} because such a major change needs consensus. I do not believe that the changes are valid. The article at Italian Wikipedia ([[:IT:Lira italiana]]) is consistent with the unchanged version: the norm was to suffix '''L.''' (for example, {{char|10.000{{nbsp}}L.}} (thousands separator is period). I think we may assume that the contributors to IT.Wiki know what they are talking about.

I was particularly concerned by the apparent misrepresentation of the Unicode standard, which actually says
{{blockquote|'''Lira Sign''': A separate currency sign U+20A4 lira sign is encoded for compatibility with the HP Roman-8 character set, which is still widely implemented in printers. In general, U+00A3 pound sign may be used for both the various currencies known as pound (or punt) and the currencies known as lira. Examples include the British pound sterling, the historic Irish punt, and the former lira currency of Italy.<ref>{{cite book |title=The Unicode Standard {{!}}Version 8.0 – Core Specification |chapter=Chapter 22 Symbols |chapter-url=https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode8.0.0/ch22.pdf |publisher=The Unicode Consortium}}</ref>}} 
NB '''may''' be used. This is not a citation for actual use or actual Italian standard (for either form), it is merely the Unicode Consortium's documentation for their code points.

A clear case, supported (accurately) by citations needs to be made if consensus is to be achieved. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 23:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

{{reflist talk}}
:In actual practice there was no single established norm – the prefixes "L." and "Lit. " were commonly and indiscriminately used, as was the lira symbol; as a postfix, the word "lire" was commonly written in full. [[User:Justlettersandnumbers|Justlettersandnumbers]] ([[User talk:Justlettersandnumbers|talk]]) 07:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

::The reason I support the use of "£" or "₤" is for the sake of consistency with the notation Wikipedia uses for historic lira system currencies in Italy, which tend to use the double bar lira sign or the single bar pound sign. "L" without qualification is used by multiple currencies, such as the [[Albanian lek|lek]], [[Romanian leu|leu]], the [[Swazi lilangeni|lilangeni]], the [[Honduran lempira|lempira]] and the [[Lesotho loti|loti]], which could invite confusion when used without a link to this article. The double bar lira sign without qualification is not currently used for any non-Italian currencies. The article for the [[Maltese lira]] uses it, but not without the qualifying suffix ("₤M").[[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 11:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
:::@TCG, I would prefer that you be correct because it would be tidier, but unfortunately reality must take priority. JL&N's description matches what I have seen elsewhere. It does seem that the error is with the practice you found elsewhere on Wikipedia. Can of worms! --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 13:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
::::@JMF, I would like to get an Italian person's view on the matter: whether the use of "L." instead of "₤." was always a deliberate choice or if it was due to limited character availability on typewriters and metal typesets, for example if a person was writing by hand which one did they use? The Italian Wikipedia's entry seems a little suspect to me, because I have never seen the "L." version suffixed after the numerals anywhere on period materials. Coins and stamps always used it as a prefix. Italian banknotes, of the Italian lira and earlier currencies, tended not to use any currency symbol at all. The "Lit." abbreviation seems like the closest thing to a generally recognised specific sign. But as I say, I would like an Italian's view on it all. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 16:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
{{multiple image
| align             = right
| direction         = horizontal
| image1            = Olivetti typewriter.jpg
| width1            = 150
| caption1          = Olivetti MP1 Ico (1932): with ₤ key.
| image2            = Olivetti Lettera 35 L.jpg
| width2            = 150
| caption2          = Olivetti Lettera 35 L : no explicit currency sign key
}}
:::::I agree, though formally we would still need a [[wp:RS]]. It would probably fall foul of [[WP:NOR]] to trawl old books and newspapers to see what they used. Yes, only typeset sources would be reliable as typewriters always suffer from restricted repertoire.
:::::I had a look in Commons for images of Italian typewriters and found these two. NB that there are many Olivetti typewriters on Commons, intended for foreign markets. These ones have the Italian layout. 
:::::As an aside, I think whoever it was who 'bent' the Uncode Consortium citation about 00A3 v 20A4 to support their POV managed to trap themselves in an anachronism. Yes, it is certainly true that the [[pound sign]] can be shown with one or two bars at the type-designers whim '''but''' the Unicode specification post-dates the ITL merging into the EUR and is thus incidental.  --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 18:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::On further reflection, I think we must assume that the it.wiki article was written and reviewed by Italians, so is more likely to represent their consensus than an isolated recollection by an arbitrary Italian acquaintance. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 19:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Usage on Italian Wikipedia is very inconsistent. Their articles for the Tuscan lira ("Lira toscana"), the Papal lira ("Lira pontificia"), the Luccan lira ("Lira lucchese") and the Somalian lira ("Lira somala") all use either "£" or "₤". They also on occasion use "lire" as the currency sign on non-Italian currencies such as the Turkish lira. The 1939 series 1 and 2 lira banknotes used "ℒ". Italian cheques tended to use "ℒ.", "ℒ<small>𝒾𝓉.</small>" or "Lit.". The handwritten material on Commons uses "£" or "₤". The consensus appears to be that there was no consensus and one could use whatever one deemed appropriate.
{{multiple image
| align             = right
| direction         = horizontal
| image1            = 1933-06-28 Alfa 6C 1500 10811406 ACI registration.jpg
| width1            = 150
| caption1          = Royal Italian Automobile Club registration form using "£" (1933)
| image2            = 1928-01-03-Chiusoli-Olindo-preventivo-cinema-Regina-Bologna.jpg
| width2            = 150
| caption2          = Invoice for decoration work at a cinema using "£"}}
{{multiple image
| align             = left
| direction         = horizontal
| image1            = AssegnoN1BCCGaudianoDiLavello.jpg
| width1            = 150
| caption1          = A cheque using "ℒ<small>𝒾𝓉.</small>" (1928)
| image2            = ICCREA 100 lire.jpg
| width2            = 150
| caption2          = A ''miniassegno'' using "Lit." (1975{{ndash}}1978)}}
::::::: [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 03:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I think a fair summary of the rule would be that there was no rule. Insofar as we can say anything, it would be that (a) we can find no evidence of a statutory currency '''symbol''', nor any reliable source saying that any single one emerged as favoured through "custom and practice" as happened with the pound sign; (b) the letter L in various typefaces (L, ''L'', ℒ, no doubt <math>\mathfrak{L}</math> in [[blackletter]] type too) was the most common '''abbreviation''':, then Lit/''Lit'', then ₤ or £ (one or two bars depending on typesetter's whim?). IT.Wiki seems to reflect that relaxed approach. 
::::::::So we can't declare a rule without violating [[WP:NOR]] and skirt perilously close by even claiming any one "common practice".
::::::::I suggest that 
::::::::# we may legitimately leave the infobox largely stand as it is, ''using'' {{code|L.}}, because that appears to be the most common practice; '''but''' we must delete the {{code|1= symbol=}} line because there is no evidence that it is true.
::::::::# we (aka you {{smiley}}) needs to write a new section documenting examples of the various practices but without drawing a conclusion in the absence of a RS.
::::::::Does that seem satisfactory? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 08:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::I might try hashing something out later once I've had time to think on it. There ''is'' an example of a symbol being consistently used for the Italian lira I can think of: customisable price boards in cafes always used "₤", to be perfectly frank that was the thing that had stuck in my mind when I initially decided to use the sign. The reasons I advocate for "₤" are that it is unique when used without a qualifying abbreviation and in Italy is universally recognised as the lira's symbol with no confusion as to what currency is being referenced. Most users of the Italian Wikipedia will be Italians living in Italy and so will be familiar with and understand the lack of full standardisation, while a person browsing the English Wikipedia to take a cursory glance at numismatic topics may be from almost anywhere in the world and could easily become confused, especially if he comes from a country that uses "L." as well (for the same reason I generally prefer the use of "lek" or "leu/lei" in full without any abbreviation in reference to the Albanian and Romanian currencies). [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 12:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Ok let's leave further discussion pending more searching of sources. I'd be a lot happier if we had a RS because just looking at examples equals [[WP; original research]]. Maybe HP recorded a reason for putting in their printers? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 14:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::::I've been doing some deep research. The Banca d'Italia seems to have considered "Lit." to be the lira's "offficial" (or at least semi-official) symbol, it is used on most of their annual reports (these are available in both English and Italian on their website). I would be willing to accept the adoption of "Lit." in the article since this was both very commonly used and explicitly identifies the currency. I will write a draft section on "symbols and notation" referencing all used symbols for the currency and the flexibility of their use. Most of the ''miniassegno'' used "Lit." in either standard type or a script form ("ℒ<small>𝒾𝓉.</small>"). [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 19:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

===My bold edit while discussion in progress===
I'm afraid I couldn't let the misrepresentation of the Unicode specification stand any longer, so I have corrected it. I believe it is largely incidental to the discussion above but if anyone disagrees, please feel free to revert. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 14:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

===Some search results: 1. Currency symbol on Italian postage stamps as an indication of the 'official' [state body] symbol===
I looked in Commons for ever postage stamp displayed for the 20th century. The result may not be totally conclusive but L. has it since the end of WWII. However most stamps just had the word "Lira".
{{Gallery
| title        = Lira symbol on Italian postage stamps
| align        =
| footer       =
| style        =
| state        =
| height       =
| width        =
| captionstyle =
| File:Italy 1924 MI 4 stamp (Postal Notes 1l).jpg
 | 1924 stamp, £1 lira, uses £ (one bar). (Same series has £2 and £3)
 | alt1=
| File:ITA 1944 MiNr0664 pm B002a.jpg
 | 1944 stamp, ₤1 uses ₤ (two bar). Same series has ₤2.50
 | alt2=
| File:ITA 1949 MiNr0788 pm B002.jpg
 | 1949 stamp, L.20. uses L.
 | alt3=
| File:The Italian Republic 1949 Mi 772 stamp (75th anniversary of the UPU. Hemispheres of Earth, diesel multiple unit, airplane and steamer).jpg
 | 1949 stamp, L.50. uses L.
 | alt4=
| File:Cinquantenario della morte di Giosuè Carducci - 1957 - francobolli Italia.jpg
 | 1957 stamp, L.25. uses L.
 | alt5=
| File:FAO Commemorative 1965 - Freedom from Hunger Stamp 1963.jpg
 | 1963 stamp, L.70 lira, uses L. 
 | alt6=
| File:UNICEFItaly1971.JPG
 | 1971 stamp, L.90 lira, uses L.
 | alt7=
| File:Europa 1975 Italia 01.jpg
 | 1975 stamp, L.100 lira, uses L. Same series has a L.150 stamp too.
 | alt8=
}}

Of course there would have been other issues between 1975 and 2002 but for copyright reasons Commons does not have them. Are they visible elsewhere? (I don't care enough to spend £27.95 on the relevant Stanley Gibbons catalogue!) --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

:By my reckoning, if one includes the stamps of the Italian Islands of the Aegean, Commons has 14 x "L.", 16 x "£" and 157 x "LIRE" if one adds up all the pre- and post-war stamps. "£" was much more common before the war and very shortly after it, before disappearing from stamps by the 1950s. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 21:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

===Some search results: 2. Searching Google Books for "Simbolo di valuta" and "Lira"===
I only found one 'hit' where the relevant page was available:
* {{cite book | title=Come si fa tutto o quasi con Excel 2003 |last1=Romano Zoppi Pellegrini | isbn=9788848116817 |chapter= p. 35 |chapter-url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7xqwZNA7hLsC&pg=PA35 |lang=IT |location=Milano |publisher=Tecniche nuove |year=2004 |quote=6. nella casella A, selezionate ITL - Lira italiana: è l'unità monetaria di destinazione; 7. nella casella Formato di output scegliete Valuta: in questo modo, in ogni cella compare automaticamente il simbolo di valuta; |trans-quote=6. in box A, select ITL - Italian Lira: it is the target monetary unit; 7. in [the] box, Format of output, select Currency: in this way, the currency symbol appears in each cell; }}. In the figure, the resulting currency symbol displayed is '''L.'''.
Is this a more reliable source than the pre-war documents above? Are there other free-text search engines? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

:Google Books produces a lot of hits with available pages for "Lit." as the symbol, both in Italian and international contexts, such as [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Exchange_Stabilization_Fund/jL5OwPOk1rkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Lit.+lira&pg=PA100&printsec=frontcover here] [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Northern_Question/UVTtimVHk9gC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Lit.+lira&pg=PA75&printsec=frontcover here], [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Review_Copy_International_Accounting/UhF_0ypmU1UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Lit.+lira&dq=Lit.+lira&printsec=frontcover here], [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/EUropean_Monetary_System/lS-_69uimRoC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Lit.+lira&pg=PA52&printsec=frontcover here], [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Questions_and_Answers_on_Finance_of_Inte/wO_7CAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Lit.+lira&pg=PA48&printsec=frontcover here] and [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Italy_Business_Law_Handbook_Volume_1_Str/hAOuDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Lit.%22+lire&pg=PA215&printsec=frontcover here] (please excuse the formatting), these are all dedicated financial sources.[[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 22:15, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
::Ok, that persuades me that we have enough reliable sources for Lit. as being the primary abbreviation. I'm less sure that we have any evidence for a formal currency ''symbol'' but the new section can address that. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 23:52, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
:::Oh I agree there is no single ''symbol'' for the lira, I just want there to be a degree of consistency. I have updated the article using the "Lit." abbreviation in only the most appropriate places (such as exchange rates and listings of denominations not contained within sentences), otherwise "lira" or "lire" is used. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 01:14, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::::I have also found that the CIA World Factbook regarded "Lit." as the lira's sign, I have edited the article accordingly citing it as international recognition.[[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 18:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

===Some search results: 3. Italian coinage, the authorative source?===
All the Italian lira coins use L. without exeption.
{{Gallery
| title        = Lira symbol on Italian coins
| align        =
| footer       =
| style        =
| state        =
| height       =
| width        =
| captionstyle =
| File:50 Italian lira reverse 1931.jpg
 | 1931 coin, 50 lira, uses L. 
 | alt1=
| File:IT-1940-Lira-L-2.jpg
 | 1940 coin, 2 lira, uses L. 
 | alt2=
| File:1 Lira Italiana - 1948 01.png
 | 1948 coin, 1 lira, uses L. (Same series has 1, 5 and L.10)
 | alt3=
| File:50 Lire Italiane - 1955.jpg
 | 1955 coin, 50 lira, uses L. (Same series has L.2, L.5 and 10 without any currency symbol)
 | alt4=
| File:100 lire Italia 1956.png
 | 1955 coin, 100 lira, uses L. 
 | alt5=
| File:IT-1958-Lire-500.jpg
 | 1958 coin, 500 lira, uses L.   
 | alt6=
| File:500L 1965-DanteAlighierifr.JPG
 | 1965 coin, 500 lira, uses L. 
 | alt7=
| File:500 Lire Italiane - 1985.png
 | 1985 coin, 500 lira, uses L. 
 | alt8=
| File:200 lire consiglio.jpg
 | 1990 coin, 200 lira, uses L. 
 | alt9=
| File:500 Lire Italiane - 20° Anniversario delle Elezioni del Parlamento Europeo.jpg
 | 1999 coin, 500 lira, uses L. 
 | alt10=
}}

This is the one that for me is conclusive. We can't get a more reliable source than the Bank of Italy. Can there now be any argumemt the standard symbol was L. ? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 21:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

:In its published documentation, the Bank of Italy used "Lit.", also used by commercial banks on miniassegno notgeld. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 22:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

===Usage by the Bank of Italy===

The Bank of Italy seem to have considered "Lit." to be the most "official" symbol for the lira, they used it on their annual reports for many years, until they had to omit a currency sign altogether by the late 1980s when the figures just became too large to include one, examples include [https://www.bancaditalia.it/pubblicazioni/relazione-annuale/1982/en_rel82_abridged_annualreport.pdf?language_id=1 page 197] of the 1982 report. It also enjoyed extensive usage by both Italian and international financial documentation. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 22:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
:Just to repeat what I wrote above but this is a more appropriate place for it: that persuades me that we have enough reliable sources for Lit. as being the primary abbreviation. I'm less sure that we have any evidence for a formal currency ''symbol'' but the new section can address that. I think you will need to distinguish between domestic usage and international usage, which won't be easy. [Was "Itl." really used domestically?] --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 23:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
::I've been mulling this over, perhaps the best solution might be to use "Lira/Lire" as one would use a conventional currency symbol as a prefix separated from the numerals by a non-breaking space.[[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 14:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

===My proposed solution===

I am still in very early drafts of a "notation and symbols" section, but here is my proposal for the infobox, updated with rough draft for "symbols" section.

{{Infobox currency
| obsolete_notice = Y
| currency_name_in_local = {{native name|it|Lira italiana}}
| image_1 = Italian lira banknotes.JPG
| image_2 = Italia 1000 lire.JPG
| image_title_1 = Lira banknotes ranging from Lit.2,000 to Lit.500,000
| image_title_2 = Lit.1,000 coin (1997)
| iso_code = ITL
| iso_number = 380
| iso_exponent = 0
| subunit_name_1 = [[Centesimo]]
| plural = lire
| symbol = None official, see [[Italian lira#|notation and symbols section]]
| frequently_used_banknotes = Lit.1,000, Lit.2,000, Lit.5,000, Lit.10,000, Lit.50,000, Lit.100,000
| rarely_used_banknotes = Lit.500,000
| frequently_used_coins = Lit.50, Lit.100, Lit.200, Lit.500, Lit.1,000
| rarely_used_coins = Lit.1, Lit.2, Lit.5, Lit.10, Lit.20 
| subunit_ratio_1 = {{frac|100}}
| subunit_inline_note_1 = (withdrawn after [[World War II]])
| plural_subunit_1 = centesimi
| using_countries = {{Collapsible list
| title = {{flag|Italian Republic}}
| ''{{flag|Napoleonic Italy}}'' <small>(1805-1814)</small>
|''{{flag|Kingdom of Italy|civil}}'' <small>(1861-1946)</small> 
|''{{flag|Italian Social Republic}}'' <small>(1943–1945)</small>
|{{flagicon|Trieste}} ''[[Free Territory of Trieste]]'' <small>(1947–1954)</small>
}}
[[File:Flag of Albania (1939–1943).svg|20px]] [[Albanian Kingdom (1939–43)|Kingdom of Albania]] (1939–43)<br>
''{{flag|San Marino|1862}}'' (local issue: [[Sammarinese lira]])<br>
''{{flag|Vatican City}}'' (local issue: [[Vatican lira]])
| issuing_authority = [[Banca d'Italia]]
| issuing_authority_website = {{URL|www.bancaditalia.it}}
| printer = [[Istituto Poligrafico e Zecca dello Stato]]
| printer_website = {{URL|www.ipzs.it}}
| mint = [[Istituto Poligrafico e Zecca dello Stato]]
| mint_website = {{URL|www.ipzs.it}}
| inflation_rate = 2.3% (2001)
| ERM_since = 13 March 1979, 25 November 1996
| inflation_source_date = 
| ERM_withdraw = 17 September 1992
| ERM_fixed_rate_since = 31 December 1998
| euro_replace_non_cash = 1 January 1999
| euro_replace_cash = 1 March 2002
| ERM_fixed_rate = Lit.1,936.27}}
==Notation and symbols==
There was no standard sign or abbreviation for the Italian lira, the abbreviations '''Lit.''' (standing for ''Lira italiana'') and '''L.''' (standing for ''Lira'') and the [[Currency symbol|signs]] '''[[Lira|₤]]''', and '''[[Pound sign|£]]''' were all acceptable representations of the currency. Banks and financial institutions often used ''Lit.''<ref>[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banca_Popolare_di_Milano_50_lire.jpg A ''miniassegni'' issued by the Banca Popolare di Milano using "LIT." as the currency sign]</ref><ref>[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AssegnoN1BCCGaudianoDiLavello.jpg A cheque issued by the Cassa Rurale ed Artigiana di Gaudiano di Lavello using a script version of "Lit."]</ref>, handwriting and signs at market stalls would often use "£" or "₤"<ref>[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1933-06-28%20Alfa%206C%201500%2010811406%20ACI%20registration.jpg 1933 Registration Form of the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia prominently displaying "£50'000" in handwriting.]</ref><ref>[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:451_-_Siracusa_-_Cotognata_-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall%27Orto_-_15-Oct-2008.jpg An old price display sign in use in Sicily marked with both the lira and euro signs]</ref> while printed media used "L." in contexts where no confusion with other currencies could arise.[[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 00:08, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:The text of that looks good but unfortunately the citations don't really meet Wikipedia's [[WP:RS]] criterion. They are ''examples'' of usage rather than ''descriptions'' of usage. But they are better than nothing so maybe will have to do for now.
:The currency code ITL needs a mention for completeness.
:At [[ISO/IEC 646]], I found the Italian standard ISO-IR-015 {{cite iso-ir |title=Variant of the ISO 7-bit coded character set (graphics only) for the Italian language |sponsor=ECMA |sponsor-link=Ecma International |date=1976 |number=15}} which suggests that in 1976 at least, the Italian Standards body was so uninterested in ₤ that they allocated one of their national variant code points to £ and called it "pound sign" (as did the French). So until Unicode arrived on the scene with a unique code point for ₤, it was almost too late to matter. For 20-odd years, if anybody wanted a ₤ on a computer-printed document, they would need a font with that glyph at A3 and probably a HP printer too. How ''did'' the average {{Lang|it|fruttivendolo}} possibly manage? {{Smiley}} --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 08:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::Is there a version of the pdf in Italian? Because I'm wondering if the Italian version may have said "lira". [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 14:34, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:::Not that I can find easily. It appears that the working languages were English and French but it seems that only the french one is in the national language (I've read the Portuguese and Spanish ones). Here is the French one from 1973
:::*{{cite iso-ir |title=French set of graphic characters for the French language |sponsor=AFNOR |sponsor-link=AFNOR |date=1975 |number=25}} 
:::Can you see a use for it? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 17:16, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::::Its listed as "symbole livre" in French. Both French and Italian refer to all currency units named "pound", "lira" etc. as "livre" and "lira" respectively so I'm not sure whether this indicates the opinion of the standards body or not. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 19:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::TBH, I made a leap of faith. The European Computer Manufacturers Association included Ollivetti: it seems reasonable to assume that they had at least the blessing of the [[Italian Standards Institute]] (is that what it is called?). The various national variants of ISO/IEC 646 are listed in https://www.itscj-ipsj.jp/ir/NNN.pdf, replacing NNN with a number with leading zeroes as needed (for ex, https://www.itscj-ipsj.jp/ir/015.pdf for the Italian one in English). I didn't find an index so a brute force search seems the only option. But is it really worth pursuing? 
::::::BTW, while I think of it, [[List of QWERTY keyboard language variants#Italian|the modern Italian PC keyboard]] has a (one bar) £ sign: I have no idea when that started. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::I'm not at all convinced "£" and "₤" were ever considered separate distinct signs before Unicode, in all the documentation I've ever seen they're completely interchangeable. [[User:TheCurrencyGuy|TheCurrencyGuy]] ([[User talk:TheCurrencyGuy|talk]]) 21:14, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::I agree completely. That is certainly true of the sterling sign: for centuries the BoE has used either style apparently at random, even for two denominations issued in the same year. At the [[pound sign]] article, there are font samples showing some that use two bars and some one. The odd thing to me is that the two-bar ₤ was ever given a code point when the [[cifrao]] was not, despite having a far stronger record of distinctive use. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 23:08, 20 June 2022 (UTC)


===Some suggested changes to the draft===
:# "Acceptable" -> "accepted" (de jure v de facto)
:# "Lit.": add note to say that this was the style used by the Bank of Italy in its documents.
:# "L.": add note to say that this was the style used on all lira coins 

Agree? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 08:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:I have done #1 and #3, would you do #2? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 17:16, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::Done, I see. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Lira [sic] ==

I deleted the dubious plural "Liras" because the OED doesn't recognise it. It is the illiterate equivalent of "panini's" [sic]. However, there at many instances of "Turkish Liras" on the web, so perhaps it belongs int the generic [[Lira]] article? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 20:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

== Lira [sic] ==

I deleted the dubious plural "Liras" because the OED doesn't recognise it. It is the illiterate equivalent of "panini's" [sic]. However, there at many instances of "Turkish Liras" on the web, so perhaps it belongs int the generic [[Lira]] article? --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 21:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)