View source for Talk:Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG

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{{merged-from | Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. – Individual Eleven | 8 September 2011}}

==Series vs. Season==

I'm a little troubled by the idea that the words "series" and "season" can be used interchangably.  They mean two different things. "Series" implies a self-contained arc of episodes with a distinct start and end, while "season" tends to imply that the episodes run on without a conclusion of story arcs, etc.  In this context I feel "series" is the appropiate word, given the distinct and self-contained plotlines and themes of both SAC and 2nd Gig; therefore I intend to have an anti-"season" crusade soon, unless someone can come up with a reason for me not to. [[User:YourMessageHere|YourMessageHere]] 21:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

: For what it's worth, the official English website does use the word "season" ( http://ghostintheshell2ndgig.manga.com/ ) [[User:Vechs|Vechs]] ([[User talk:Vechs|talk]]) 05:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

==Cartoon Network==
Cartoon Network was showing episodes of 2nd Gig in 2004. I particularly remember Grass Labyrinth, unless there was an episode similar to it in the first season [[User:Hackwrench|Hackwrench]] 19:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
:You're misremembering then ... 2nd Gig wasn't even dubbed into English in 2004, let alone shown on CTN.  --[[User:Cyde|Cyde]] 08:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
::Sounds like it could've been episode 12 from [[GitS:SAC]] (Tachikoma Runs Away; The Movie Director's Dream – ESCAPE FROM). The 2nd GIG has never aired on CN until now. Atleast, not to my knowledge, or to the knowledge of CN's website.
:::Just like I said, "The 2nd Gig" couldn't possibly have been aired on CN until now because the dub translation wasn't done.  It's a chronology issue.  --[[User:Cyde|Cyde]] 23:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
::::Yeah, no one is ignoring you, so don't worry. I was just being a little pert with the website bit. [[User:Ereinion|<span style="color:#6B6E85;">Ereinion</span>]] 07:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

==Particulist Eleven==
Note for later expansion: The "Particulist Eleven" refers to the 11 Naval officers involved in the real life [[May 15 incident]], which lead to the military control of the Japanese government before World War II. [[User:Crazyeddie|crazyeddie]] 18:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

==Re: Expansion tag==
The page needs information on the last of the series episodes, and entries on such things as technology and references to [[Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex|the first season]] and its output on the series would be apreciated. Admittedly, the series has not yet released in the U.S. as of this writing, but someone out there has got to have info they can add. [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 00:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

== Episodes 23-26 Information ==
For episode synopsis in English see [http://www.productionig.com/contents/works_sp/02_/s02_/index.html Official Production I.G. S.A.C. Wesite]

I have updated the episode synopsis while trying to keep it spoiler-free. --[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 17:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

: It should also be noted that the summaries so far, including those translated from Production IG, do nothing to describe the "personal"/metaphysical thread of the story as played out between Motoko, Kuze, and Gouda.  To do so would probably constitute a spoiler.

== Am I the only one... ==

Who LOVED GitS and GitS:SAC but hates Second Gig? Yes, they ditched the Major's bathing suit (Kudos!) but the series still seems unnecessarily dark and a litle too heavy on exposition. [[User:Palm dogg|Palm_Dogg]] 04:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

YES You Are

:Am ''I'' the only one who's living in France right now, hearing reports come in about riots and tear gas in the square where I went to buy books the day before &mdash; and when [[Dominique de Villepin]] says "some of the violence had been organized through Internet [[blog]]s", am I the only one who thinks "Stand Alone Complex?"  [[User:Anville|Anville]] 21:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I personally find 2nd GIG to be a little better than SAC, since it still has the same amazing and twisting plot (well, more twists this time) but with a little more action too. Plus the background info on some characters is a pretty nice touch. I do agree with ditching the bathing suit though, now the Major actually appears "normal." And what do ou mean by "unnecessarily dark"? It's a little gory and bloody and some scenes, but it's not that bad... (compared to most other anime or media...)


No you're not the only one.  So far, 2nd GIG has been a little dissapointing.  It's not terribly exiciting to see 70's movies and old bits of history re-done in anime, where the sci-fi aspects are just used as deus-ex-machina reasons for why things are.  The 2nd episode, the TAXI DRIVER homage, bothered me in particular.--[[User:Armentage|Armentage]]


:Agreed. You can tell the studio only created it because the first one did well. They seemed to only "cut and paste" from other areas, then made it up to look enticing and fresh. They should have taken their own advice and done another remake, putting the cast in another storyline, one that assumed SAC never happened. You can still character develop without weighing them down that way. [[User:Eluchil|<span style="color:#6B6E85;">Eluchil</span>]] 00:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)




She wasn't "offering", she was joking. And they blew Goda away because he was guilty of murder. Just because he had the "right" to go, dosen't mean they should've let him. And it dosen't matter if you get shot one time in the head, or twenty, you're going to be just as dead.

== Alternate Timeline Manga/Film confusion? (SPOILERS - all around - SAC, SAC2, GITS movies and manga) ==

Is there a source for the assertion in "Trivia" that SAC 2nd GIG is an alternate storyline from GITS (the 1st movie)? Or is this what I've surmised -- that the TV series are re-telling of events in the GITA Manga?

IMO the Manga and TV series certainly may be considered "alternate retellings" or "alternate timelines" because of overlapping events. This is also the case with other Anime / Manga series such as Full Metal Alchemist where the Manga expands upon the plot presented in the Anime (ED: to be precise, that the Anime is a condensation of the material in the Manga). However this series and the films follow each other cleanly, as do SAC and SAC 2nd GIG.

As soon as episode 1 of this series there are references to Project 2501 / The Puppet Master in Major Kusanagi's ability to control one of the terrorists: ''she refers to her victim as a "puppet"''; Bato jokes to the team to have their "back-hack blockers up" before the briefing (certainly advisable if Motoko is now the home for the intermingled personalities / memories of both her original self, the puppet master, and the laughing man!).

But the end of 2nd GIG puts us right at the begining of the first GitS film. Even if you disagree I'm going to remove that tag as it cannot be backed up.

:Actually, the background sounds very similar to the history postulated in the [[Appleseed]] Databook by Shirow, including the two world wars before 2029 (WWIII is a nuclear war between U.S. and Soviets; WWIV is a war between the European Commonwealth and U.S. and the Asian Alliance) and the "Japanese Miracle". No word on whether the European forces where lead by the false Christ and the true Christ appearing in China right before a giant meteor strikes. --[[User:YoungFreud|YoungFreud]] 19:41, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

:Oh, I just realized the date of the 2nd film is 2032 (from the publisher's descirption of Innocence the novel). This corrobberates the trivia fact! The first GitS film takes place in 2029, and the SAC 1 episodes begin April 2030. --[[User:KarlThePagan|KarlThePagan]]

Actually, the end of SAC 2nd GIG leads to chapter 2 of the manga. From what I can recall, the date was not mentioned in the manga. Personally, I see both movies as seperate from both the manga and SAC.
--[[User:Sinbios|Sinbios]]

I think the process of adapting GiTS from comics and movie to TV series is similar to that of X-men movies from comic books. The use of alternate line time offers writing staff greater artistic freedom in developing the TV series. On the other hand, if the story deviates too much from the original, it will loose the flavour of the original. One way to get around this problem is to incorporate and re-interpretate key events, characters (e.g. Decatoncale, Major jumping off the building, Azuma etc.) from the original into a new alternative timeline/narrative structure. --[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 00:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the chronology is just wrong... The manga and the movie (which is based on the manga) starts Section 9 in the year 2029, but SAC 2nd GIG ends at 2031, so the two similar scenes at the beginning of the manga and the end of 2nd GIG is off by 2 years. I'd say it's pretty much agreed SAC is a alternate universe.

== Episode 26 fansub is out ==
[http://gits.no-jutsu.com/gits/ Laughing Man Fansubs] just finished out the series.  Torrent links to all 26 episodes are located at the bottom of that page.  Enjoy.  --[[User:Cyde|Cyde]] 06:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Laughing Man does do very good fansubs for GiTS S.A.C. considering Ghost in the Shell is one of the hardest anime to translate into English. The down side is that you have to hunt for AC3 codex to play some of the files. I wouldn't recommend any other fansubs. --[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 00:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

:Huh?  You don't have to hunt for anything.  Whenever I need to install AC3 (which is fairly often, because I reinstall Windows regularly and some of my friends aren't tech-savvy), I just Google for "AC3 Filter", download it (it's not terribly big) and install it ... takes five minutes, maximum, and then everything just works.  You're right about Laughing Man Fansubs -- he does a great job.  --Cyde Weys <small>[[User:Cyde|[u]]] [[User talk:Cyde | [t]]] [[Special:Contributions/Cyde | [c]]]</small> 00:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

For some strange reason the link isnt working, have the subs been taking off? [[User:Empty2005|Empty2005]] 04:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

:That address hasn't worked (for me) for several weeks.  I believe some of my friends were able to use BitTorrent to get all the episodes.  (I downloaded episode 26 directly from one of their computers, so I don't know how they got it.)  [[User:Anville|Anville]] 08:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

:i've found out a way to get but its only through p2p. On searching type in LMF or lmf and select video all the fansubs will apear! [[User:Empty2005|Empty2005]] 07:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

== Character name transliterations ==

Someone is editing the character names to different transliterations, so I'm saying we just stick with the "official" transliterations and not muddy up the issue by offering multiple versions of the transliteration.  The names are Japanese, and any English spelling is just going to be an approximation, so might as well just stick with the best approximation and not muddy the issue by listing multiple approximations.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 22:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

We will try to be consistent with spelling. I am not sure whether there is a single "official" spelling convention. Japanese are generally quiet sloppy with transliteration. --[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 00:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

By "official" I meant what is used the American company that the anime has been licensed to.  Also, these spellings are consistent with Laughing Man Fansubs, the dominant GitS fansubber.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 00:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean the official spelling from the Manga Entertainment US GiTS S.A.C. website.

==Coincidence?==
Is it a coincidence that the Cabinet Intelligence Agency, if abbreviated, comes out to CIA, or was that meant as a slam againt the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency? [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 00:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
*That's not a slam at all.  Japan does, in fact, have an agency whose name, when translated into English, comes out to be Cabinet Intelligence Agency.  That a phrase in English has the same initials as a phrase in Japanese translated into English doesn't seem notable to me.  Also, I fixed some spelling errors on your part.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 01:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The Cabinet Intelligence Agency is modelled after the real Cabinet Information Research Office, a branch of the Japanese Cabinet Secretariat. Here is the website of the real-life counterpart.[http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/constitution_and_government_of_japan/cabinet_e.html]
--[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 01:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Errrr yeah, amend my comment then.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 01:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Took out tv-premiere template ==

Someone put on the {{tl|tv-premiere}} template, which looks like this:
''[the template has been deleted]''

I took it off because the series has already premiered ''and'' finished its run in Japan.  The only thing that's premiering in America is the English dub, which is very unlikely to change any of the details in the article.  So I don't think the tag is necessary.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 00:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:Yeah, that was me. I was testing of theory of mine and it worked, but before I could remove the templete from the front page I called for dinner. Sorry about that :/ [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 02:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::Also, you spelled "premiere" incorrectly ... you spelled it "premire".  I took the liberty of correcting it for you on all occurrences of the mispelling.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 02:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Thanks. I can’t spell worth a darn. In all honesty this should have been done in my sandbox, but I couldn’t test the {{{1}}} templete there. [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 03:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Ep. 2 takes place on Christmas, 2031? ==

Some anonymous user inserted into the Trivia section that episode 2 takes place on Christmas Eve, 2031.  I removed it for now until someone can provide some evidence in favor of this.  I just skimmed over the episode and didn't see any obvious Christmas references, though I must admit it's been months since I last saw the episode in its entirety.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 17:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You have to notice the background graphics behind the newscaster during the TV news programm on channel 33. It says "2031 Channel 33". When Gino is talking about "reset the world" and "tommorow is the day", you can clearly see the wall calendar with the date 25th December circled. There are no signs of Christmas celebration as Japan is not a Christian country. Also, the second season ends with a cherry blossom scene 2032, roughly end of March, begining of April, roughly Easter time.--[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, I re-added it to the main page.  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 19:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

== Time to branch the episode list ==

I think the episode list has now gotten significantly long it's distracting from the main article and should be moved into its own page.  Any objections?  --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 19:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I was playing with the formating. But it didnt go so well, so I revert it back. I should have tried it with the sandbox. --[[User:GoogleMonkey|GoogleMonkey]] 19:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

== Some questions and comments/finds ==

What does Kuze mean when he says he'll be the first one to go? does he mean he'll be the first one to ascend to the higher structure he's talking about? but isn't it implied heavily that ghosts can't exist in cyberspace? but then again, we have the exception of tachikomas... 2nd gig really leaves a lot of questions unanswered while still having a definate conclusion...

:Quite the opposite, I don't think there was any real criticism that a ghost could NOT exist in cyberspace. It just wasn't known if it would work, and there was some doubt on the part of the characters, but nothing was presented that implied it could not be done. At least nothing that I remember. --[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

btw, did anyone notice the lines Goudo says at the very end with the CIA agent? it's almost word for word from the one at the beginning of the Gits manga... and surprise, they both died... 

Also, did anyone notice that 2nd gig was religious references heavy? They range from minor to very obvious, for example, you have Botou holding a cross shaped support beam at the end (don't know what it means, but it's got to be there and in that shape for a reason); then you have Kuze... punctured hand (cruxifiction of Christ)... bringing the refugees to a higher exsistence/structure/salvation?... sacrifice...? and the apple scene (fruit of knowledge.) There are some more that are more hidden, like the white raven, it represents Branwen, the Goddess of regeneration, of course, I have no idea what this means... maybe Kuze isn't dead? and he might return? 

:There is a ton of symbolism in the series, not just the second season. Regarding Kuze, the same thing with the Tachikoma. (Just before their AIs are destroyed, there is a scene showing one labeling a data item "Tachikoma's All Memory" and placing it into the space they created for holding the refugees' ghosts.) --[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

As for the SAC and movie/manga connection, I don't think there is any, they are just Alternate/Parrelle Universes. If you look, in the manga, Section 9 was form in 2029 and it's the same time in SAC; so that rules out the prequel/sequel theory. But the ending scene of 2nd gig really sparks a lot of questions. It is very similar to the beginning of the book, even the think-tanks look the same. Why?

:The only connection is that the creators of the series are giving some recognition to the original Manga. Characters, world designs and storylines are all heavily borrowed from the manga, but this does not mean thay are in any way related. --[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

And lastly, does anyone think the end was rused a little? Most people I talked to think the Major and Kuze relationship was a little rushed or empty.

:Well they did spend an entire episode to establish that Motoko and Kuze had something of a history, and suggest that they have spent most of their live looking for "something" and feelign lonely/empty without it. I don't know if I would go as far to say it was a relationship, but the attachment between the characters was a long time in the making, chronologically speaking. --[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah..remember the episode 'Affection' at the end where Motoko said that that girl is looking for the 'first boy she ever liked'?  Now you see it concluding that they are hugging one another.

True, I just noticed after watching it over though. Apperantly, Motoko and Kuze direct linked, so they could have all the time to talk, exchange information, and (BIG maybe) fuse/synchronize?... wow, when you look at it this way, Production IG is pretty smart, giving us a agreeable answer while taking no responsibilty (if it's not said they can't ruin it, it's up to us to speculate...)

== Where do you exist? ==

I can't remember what episode something was said that I wanted to contemplate some more.  Could someone refresh my memory?  It was something about how they said the "ghost" might exist inside the person, the group and then something else, but I can't remember what it was!  Thanks if you can remember/bring this up again.  I know there was a part where tachikomas refered to the satalite as their "other" place but they said human's had another equivalent which I think they explained later on. -[[User:Moocats|Moocats]] 13:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

== Refugees? ==

I read in the article and heard the talk from the minor political characters in the show about the refugees in the city. Where exactly are they in the spectrum of the show, are they just a group with no leader, or are they a metaphor for something else. Ive only seen up to the most recent episode on adult swim. Any information about them and how they relate to the Individual Eleven and clarification would be appreciated.


The refugees' demands for sovereignty are basically used by Gouda and Kuze to achieve their own objectives. They are the catalyst behind the show's main plotline.  [[User:Feldmarschall|Feldmarschall]] 06:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Particularist Eleven and Gouda articles? ==

I've noticed that a article exists for [[Laughing Man (Ghost in the Shell)|Laughing Man]] which was the main case running through 1st Gig. But Articles aren't set up for The Patrticularist Eleven and the Cabinet Intellegence Ministry! Any thought's on creation of the two articles? [[User:Empty2005|Empty2005]] 02:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth the official romanization of those two is "Individual Eleven" and "Gohda".  In particular, "Paricularist Eleven" seems to be a simple case of a bad translation.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="background:#000000; font-family:Impact; color:#00A5FF;">Cyde Weys</span>]] 02:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Cyde for the answers!

:''Nota bene.''  From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (fourth edition), '''particularism''' is defined as the following:
:#Exclusive adherence to, dedication to, or interest in one's own group, party, sect, or nation.
:#A principle of allowing each state in a nation or federation to act independently of the central authority, especially in promoting its own economic interests.
:Seems like "Particularist" would work here just as well as "Individualist", with "[[Objectivist philosophy|Objectivist]]" running a close third, ha ha.  In one episode, Boma reads a filename off somebody's external memory, which is "Individual 11".  He says the words in English, while the Laughing Man subtitles read "Particularist Eleven".  (I think it's in episode 12.)  Maybe that gives the "individualist" translation more clout, but enough people have seen the Laughing Man fansubs that we should at least provide a redirect.  [[User:Anville|Anville]] 15:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

== DVD info? ==

Anyone think bringing info of the volume and box sets into the article aswell for 1st Gig is a good idea? Thanks [[User:Empty2005|Empty2005]] 06:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

== Genre ==

As I did with the page on the first season, I've changed the genre from "Cyberpunk" to "Postcyberpunk" as it seems more appropriate. [[Postcyberpunk]] even references Ghost in the Shell as an example.  [[User:Norfenstein|Norfenstein]] 21:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I’ll stand by it but you must keep in mind that ghost in the shell (the comic) came out in the 80s in the heyday of ‘classic’ cyberpunk. The cyberpunk article also list G.I.T.S. use it as an example.  So maybe post/cyberpunk is a better term? or just cyber?
 
Anyway post cyberpunk is more of a marketing term, Most post cyberpunk works grow naturally out cyberpunk rather that a movement. To say that it’s a GITS: stand alone complex is post cyber punk de-fatco just because it is more up to date is like looking at the new star war films and saying that they are ‘post Space opera”[[User:Joeyjojo|Joeyjojo]] 02:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

== Genre ==

I saw GITS 1st GIG as a dub but I aw the second one as sub. There's so much going on, it's tough to keep up with things. I've seen it mentioned before that the Japanese approach to storytelling includes a disregard for the importance of every viewer "getting it." They're willing to leave a lot of unanswered questions, unexplained situations, and offloading a lot of work onto the viewer. Personally, I think that sometimes this is a genuine sign of depth but other times it's just a cop-out. Anyway, the point of what I'm getting at here, it'd really be nice to get an explanation of exactly what was supposed to have happened here and some possible theories on the strange stuff depicted. 

A couple quesitons: 

1. Why was Ghouda so forthcoming to Motoko when she dove into his brain? Would unveiling his plan make it's accomplishment easier? 
2. Exactly how is the Particularist virus supposed to work? Is it a simple brain hijack? Is it being more subtle, using psychological principles to infuse the cyberbrain with an obsessive-compulsive disorder, sort of the way drugs can make people suicidal? How does it reproram people? 
3. The end of the show was identical to the setup of the original manga. Was this homage or trying to set everything up as a prequel? 
4. I've yet to find a decent explanation of how the "ghost" works in GITS. As I've been able to infer, a "ghost" is analagous to a soul, what makes a human being unique from a robot or AI. There is talk of ghost-lines and ghost-hacking and that would involve reaching beyond the cyberbrain interface to mess around with the real person. So, is a cyberbrain a real living human brain encased in a life support mechanism for mounting in a cyberbody? Is it an artificial construct into which a consciousness has been transferred? Are consciousnesses supposed to be transferrable? If human ghosts can be transferred from one device to another, is it possible to only copy them instead? There was mention of ghost-dubbers but no real story on how they worked or what the nature of the dubbed personalities would be like. If the dubbings were inferior to the original, that implies that a consiousness really is transferred and the copying is not like dubbing hard drives but more like pumping fluids from one tank to another. 
5. Ghosts are supposed to be capable of existing free-floating within the net? Have they provided any explanation for this?

:This isn't really the best place to be asking questions about the plot of GITS.  The discussion page is mainly for discussing changes that can be made to the article.  You might want try any variety of GITS fansites, or ask your question on rec.arts.anime.misc (a [[Usenet newsgroup]]).  --[[Image:Cyde.png]] 23:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

== Article 9 in 2nd GIG History section ==

The current article says:

:Due to a battered economy and weak political position, the American Empire entered a security pact with Japan. The pact prohibits both Japan from deploying its army overseas (Constitution Article 9) and possessing nuclear weapons.

I know that a recent episode has said something about the American Empire allying itself with Japan, but I'm not sure about those prohibitions of the Japanese military being linked to the future American Empire. Too bad I don't have the episode on tape.

''Present-day'' [[Japan]] has an article 9 in its constitution that prohibits it from taking offensive military actions against another country. Even the nation's recent participation in UN peacekeeping missions was very controversial. That anti-belligerence clause has existed since just after World War II. That's why Japan's military is called the [[Japan Self-Defense Forces]] or JSDF, both in GITS:SAC and in real life.

Could someone please check this? Thanks. --[[User:Tachikoma|Tachikoma]] 20:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


== Little Fact ==
Did you know that the opening theme was sung in 3 differnt languages: English, Japanese and Russian. I don't why though...

Because the singer, Origa, is a native Russian, and the anime is Japanese. There's English because it's exotic. --[[Sinbios]]

Not a fact. There is no Japanese, although it's easy to mistake some of the Russian words for Japanese given the context. The song is entirely in Russian and accented English. [[User:24.6.99.30|24.6.99.30]] 17:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

== Acroynm? ==

I've looked everywhere and I just can't find what "GiG" stands for, assuming it even stands for something. It kinda annoys me, especially since it's capitalized in a few different ways. You can imagine it's a hard thing to Google for. --[[User:FletcherD|FletcherD]] 05:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:It's just [[wikt:Gig|Gig]], from Wikitonary: ''Any temporary job''.  -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 09:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
:: a job usually for a specified time; ''especially an entertainer's engagement'' but also ''a 3-digit selection in a numbers game''
OR'' a military demerit''

==Proposed merge -to- SAC article==
:Ned Scott proposes to merge this page with the [[Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex]] page.
:: ''Vote at [[Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex]]''
[[Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex#Proposed merge: from 2nd GIG]]
:::Again, not a vote. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 06:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:Ned Scott has withdwan his proposal for merging this article into the SAC article.

== Should I add/remove this to the trivia? ==

In the 26th episode, (Aka spoilers, haha) there was symbolism with the iron rod being a Cruxifix, and Motoko and Kuze being underground with the apples, Motoko offering Kuze a bite of the apple is definatly symbolism towards the garden of eden.

And there was that whole white crow thing, but that's symbolism that probalby isn't related to religion.

Also, mistakes in the show or like, logical mistakes or whatever, shoudl they be included in Trivia? Stuff like, "If bouma blahblha "

:I must disagree with putting any of that stuff up.  Unless you can substantiate it with actual evidence (the producers or directors or the website says this actually occurred) then it should NOT be put up.  You can't be certain unless some official source says it's true.  Otherwise, it's just speculation.  --[[User:Miss Ethereal|Miss Ethereal]] 14:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
:I agree with the disagreement.  Some of the trivia makes no sense if one thinks about it, particularly the trivia item that suggests that Motoko's outfit resembles that of [[Izumi Curtis]] in [[Full Metal Alchemist]]: since the two anime are produced by two separate companies, it wouldn't make sense for them to riff off one another.  Usually in-referencing refers to other anime that are produced inhouse.

== Mexican War ==
The history section states: "Saito was a part of one of these armies before joining Section 9" (talking about guerrila wars in South America). This historical "fact" presumably comes from the episode where Saito is playing poker with the rookies. However, we never find out for sure whether his tale is a bluff or not. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:71.135.41.90|71.135.41.90]] ([[User talk:71.135.41.90|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/71.135.41.90|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

:Agreed, that information is never made clear if it is "fact or fiction", and done so on purpose. I'll take it out if it hasn't already been done so. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 06:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's fact. One of the tachikomas said that at the end of the episode. Anyway, what would be the point of having an entirely fictional episode? This isn't Dallas.

:There is no way for the tachikoma to know if this was fact, and in any case they were merely confirming that he was not bluffing about the card hand. As for why have a fictional episode? Who knows...there quite a number of meaningless episodes. And false, implanted memories is one of the themes of the series.

There's no way for you to know if they were "merely" confirming he wasn't bluffing about the cards. Anyway, it makes a lot of sense for the story to be true. What would be the point of making up a story to tell during a card game? It makes no sense if Saito just made up the story.

"Who knows...there quite a number of meaningless episodes" Were there? I can think of some random episodes, but they all served to somehow advance the main plot.

== Philosophy ==
Citations for references to [[Frederic Jameson]]'s vanishing mediator and [[Gilles Deleuze]]'s [[superstructure]] should be made.

== What does "GIG" stand for? ==

It's not supposed to origin from the English word "gig", a music concert, is it? That would be a scary abuse of the English language. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:87.122.61.173|87.122.61.173]] ([[User talk:87.122.61.173|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/87.122.61.173|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:That's what I always assumed it referred to. A more stylish way of saying 2nd season, if you will. --[[User:BloodDoll|BloodDoll]] 19:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

::Aye. Gig, as a slang word, while originally just meaning something like music concert, has expanded in some cases to mean "job". -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 20:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

:::I always thought it was "gig" as in short for [[gigabyte]], to fit the technology theme of the series. - [[User:Kollision|kollision]] 03:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: a 3-digit selection in a numbers game + a military demerit + a job usually for a specified time especially an entertainer's engagement

===Proposed move===
Since it doesn't appear that "GIG" stands for anything, I propose that the article be moved to [[Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd Gig]] (decapped).--[[User:SeizureDog|SeizureDog]] ([[User talk:SeizureDog|talk]]) 07:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

== Trivia ==
Please look at history of 22 May 2007 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghost_in_the_Shell%3A_S.A.C._2nd_GIG&diff=132551052&oldid=132550101] .
[[User:Ganryuu]] was reversing and deleting the trivia  focused on Episode 18 after he mistakely reverts a 2nd reference ( [[Wings of Desire]]) to Wenders film :

''Much of this episode pays homage to the [[Wim Wenders]] film [[Wings of Desire]] ( originally [[Der Himmel über Berlin]] ).''

The film was mentionned as an homage by the screenplayer and was added in this page months ( even years ) ago because in is a FACT clearly for anyone watching both the episode and the movie...

Atter four deletions from Ganryuu ( main part of the trivia and than less but again focused on EP 18 and [[Wings of Desire]] addition )

I revert to the original state and now I give up ( hard day's night ).

I won't start a war but Ganryuu acts like it is a personal revenge claiming "WP:TRIVIA and Wikipedia:No original research. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or platform for original thought, research and claims."

I'm so sorry if he misunderstood my ironical comments ;-) ( see history [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghost_in_the_Shell%3A_S.A.C._2nd_GIG&diff=132561629&oldid=132551052]  

I really don't care about the "incident" but please : Let's talk now before deleting anything or [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghost_in_the_Shell%3A_S.A.C._2nd_GIG&diff=132857692&oldid=132550101 '''everything'''] [[Peace]] --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 01:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

::You have just made four reverts within the last hour; this is a violation of [[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule]], and you can be blocked for over 24-hours because of this. Please see [[Wikipedia:No original research]] and [[WP:TRIVIA]]; excess trivia and unsourced original research cannot be included into articles; these are Wikipedia policies. Simply watching a film and noticing its similarities is considered original research and therefore cannot simply be included in articles. You haven't yet cited a single verifiable source nor reference for any of the statements you have been adding to the article; this goes against the verifiability policies. Even after being [[User talk:Neuromancien#Your recent edits|warned]] about how your edit did not conform to Wikipedia's policy on original research and directed to a page explaining the revert policy, you persisted in your reverts, via which you completely reverted the prior edits, even the content which you did not disagree with and removing the excess trivia template, without giving a single explanation for these particular reverts. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 01:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Avoid bias see history of the article.'''Wikipedia works by building consensus.''' See [[Wikipedia:Consensus]] [[WP:CON]] for rules and at last :Good night  ;-) --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 01:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia operates by the [[WP:BRD|bold, revert, discuss]] cycle, not necessarily the "we must all talk and come to a consensus before taking any actions" cycle.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 01:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
: Thanks I am reading it .In fact it was a single addition of the link [[Wings of Desire]] to [[Wim Wenders]] film reference ( originally [[Der Himmel über Berlin]] ).I sign and revert the RV made by [[User:Ganryuu]] with the comment "verify before reverting" ( i think he reverts accidentaly my anon contribution ) and it starts a stupid revert war ... What [[User:Ganryuu]] did after was only disruptive deletion focusing on this first step ... Sorry it is late night here i will not lose my time anymore Bye --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 01:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

:::What are you talking about? I've already explained why much of the content in the trivia section cannot be included in the article, due to it being original research and moreover, completely unverified and containing speculative content, to top it all off. You haven't even responded to any of these explanations, nor have you given a source or even a single explanation for your reverts. Please refrain from incivil comments and false allegations; see [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith]]. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 01:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::::: Trivia was added because the simple list of episodes was a copyvio ! The official german name of the episode 18 DVD is named from the film too [http://www.fantasyguide.de/3832.0.html] Episode 18 Himmel über Berlin I'm [[Zen]] and please keep cool because you misunderstood my first ''ironical'' RV at least and you argue with rules without respect for their spirit ! You just revert the last anon contribution first ( addition of [[Wings of desire]] as alternate reference in the trivia of EP 18 : it was mine anyway and so also for the original one [[Der Himmel über Berlin]] ) and then after my signed RV you start cleaning the whole section and especialy the mentionned Episode 18 with little variations ! Good Night it is enough for now Keep the good work ;-) --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 02:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Again, I have absolutely no idea on what your talking about. Please refrain from false allegations and incivil comments; please remember to always [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]. Simply the fact that a German distributor decided to title the episode under a particular title does not prove any connection to the actual "homage" and other speculative claims claimed within the section; again, simply watching a film, noticing its similarities and basing the flux of the content on this assumption is original research, and as such shouldn't be included. Original research must be never included in articles, since [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a soapbox]], after all. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 02:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::  Yep right !  Perhaps but this is a consensus view of thousand of viewers.Dig the web with a good search engine and also see the Page history it was discuss long ago.I will be happy to talk further but it is time to sleep for me ( and sorry for losing so many energy and time together in such (bad) circumstances ) '''My dear Friend''' Peace i'm away for few days anyway see you soon in the [[Cyberspace]] --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 02:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

::As I've said earlier, the fact that it is original research, as you admit yourself, and moreover, unsourced, this cannot be added into the article due to the several of the official policies mentioned at [[Wikipedia:No original research]] and [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for original research or thoughts. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 03:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::: The information was here before as i say before i just add an 2nd internal link --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 04:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::::It is original research and as mentioned in the above policies, must therefore be removed, no matter how long it has been prevalent in the article; this would be perhaps an assessment of the extent of the cleanup this article currently requires and why such original research and speculation be removed from articles, as this is an encyclopedia. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 04:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::::: Clean up no probs but keep consensus and good faith too Bye --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 15:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::: I've now performed a cleanup of this article, per [[WP:TRIVIA]] and moved some of the content from the trivia section to the list of episodes, since they should be cited there, if it is notable, rather than here (see WP:TRIVIA). Interestingly, some of the trivia which I removed from this article yesterday, more specifically the reference to the German film ''Der Himmel über Berlin'', was already present in the list of episodes, so it should have been removed anyway, per WP:TRIVIA. Please do not add trivia to articles, especially when it's already present in another, more suited section. See WP:TRIVIA. ···[[User:Ganryuu|<span style="color:darkblue;">巌流</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Ganryuu|<span style="color:blue;">Talk</span>]] <span style="color:darkblue;">to</span> [[WP:JA|Gan]][[WP:MOS-JA|<span style="color:darkgreen;">ryuu</span>]]</small></sup> 04:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
: Look at [[Talk:List of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex episodes]] for episode 18 reference
Btw i was never involved in any Trivia edition before --[[User:Neuromancien|Neuromancien]] 00:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


==Serious Work Needed!==
Hi everyone
I read the article on Ghost in the Shell: stand Alone Complex, and was informed as to the nature of the story. I read this article and was not. What is the series about? Why is there no summary of the plot? Where is all the very basic information that ought to be included (who are the major characters? What do they do? And why?)? 

This article needs a major rewrite not merely to get it to 'good article' standard, but even to get it to 'useful standard' (or even 'comprehensible standard'). I'd be up for doing it myself, but I haven't seen the series. That is why I came to this article: I was looking for information. I leave without it. This really isn't good enough, not in an encyclopaedia. Anyone care to sort it out (or, alternatively, to have a go at defending the indefensible?)
[[User:BlackMarlin|BlackMarlin]] ([[User talk:BlackMarlin|talk]]) 20:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll give a notice to the anime and manga wikiproject.[[User:Bread Ninja|Bread Ninja]] ([[User talk:Bread Ninja|talk]]) 16:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

==Merge the OVA==
Should we merge the OVA? it seems to have no notability at all, and jsut like laughing man article, the only thing making this one different from the original is a different english voice cast.[[User:Bread Ninja|Bread Ninja]] ([[User talk:Bread Ninja|talk]]) 19:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
:Support. --[[User:Tarage|Tarage]] ([[User talk:Tarage|talk]]) 08:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
:: Another Support. [[Special:Contributions/91.19.245.253|91.19.245.253]] ([[User talk:91.19.245.253|talk]]) 15:15, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
:::Done, please check redirect and other technicalities for me. [[User:WikiuserNI|WikiuserNI]] ([[User talk:WikiuserNI|talk]]) 18:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

== Relationship between SAC and SAC: 2nd GIG - possible merger? ==

There's quite a bit of chatter about the net debating whether 2nd GIG is the second season of the "Stand Alone Complex" series, or a separate "sequel" series. The existence here of separate articles suggests that they are two '''series''' and not one, but there are many references in articles here to 2nd GIG as the second '''season''' of SAC. I think we need to reach a consensus regarding this: if 2nd GIG is the second season, the logical thing would be to merge the articles. If it's a sequel, then references to 2nd GIG should reflect that. My personal feeling is that they are one series, but there doesn't seem to be a standard for anime series and their "sequels". [[Darker than Black: Gemini of the Meteor]] has its own page, whereas [[Gunslinger Girl]] -Il Teatrino- and [[Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid]], though supported by limited content, are integrated. Thoughts? [[User:NJMcLellan|NJMcLellan]] ([[User talk:NJMcLellan|talk]]) 20:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Its a second season.  It could be merged however the plot would be extremely long. That and I think wenll need to remove some characters. Its difficult right now. That and I'm still looking for more info on this article. I don't mind merging it now since I haven't found much info separating them such as production and reception.[[User:Bread Ninja|Bread Ninja]] ([[User talk:Bread Ninja|talk]]) 20:49, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, there would need to be some serious retooling - which I'm happy to get involved with. The story sections could, perhaps, be slimmed down and simplified some (especially considering that the "episodes" articles currently provide very detailed plot descriptions), and the character sections divided into "Principal", "SAC-only" and "2nd GIG-only" characters. It would be good to hear what others think about this... [[User:NJMcLellan|NJMcLellan]] ([[User talk:NJMcLellan|talk]]) 15:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

We shouldn't have sections like that. But I'm still lookin for more info. Well see what wecan do.[[User:Lucia Black|Lucia Black]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black|talk]]) 20:12, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough - perhaps, then, it would be reasonable to slim down the characters section to just the principal characters (notable recurring characters are already supported in the [[List of Ghost in the Shell characters]] article). [[User:NJMcLellan|NJMcLellan]] ([[User talk:NJMcLellan|talk]]) 21:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that would work for the best.[[User:Lucia Black|Lucia Black]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black|talk]]) 21:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I propose merging this into [[List of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex episodes]] (there is a fair amount of overlap already). [[Special:Contributions/2601:645:8200:41:3D2E:8C68:4703:94F9|2601:645:8200:41:3D2E:8C68:4703:94F9]] ([[User talk:2601:645:8200:41:3D2E:8C68:4703:94F9|talk]]) 07:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

== "Characters" section ==

I didn't want to make any large edits to this section without first flagging the issue up here: I suggest that the "Characters" section be pared down to just the principal cast (see [[Stand Alone Complex]]. Currently the significant recurring characters (Goda, Kuze, Proto, Kayabuki, etc) are represented in the [[List of Ghost in the Shell characters]], and I think the other characters (Forensics Team, Female Androids) are providing more detail that is necessary for this article. I think the article would be served better by a slightly more detailed section for principal characters, supported by a link to the "list of GitS characters" article. [[User:NJMcLellan|NJMcLellan]] ([[User talk:NJMcLellan|talk]]) 16:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
:sounds good. We can also do this for the first season too.[[User:Lucia Black|Lucia Black]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black|talk]]) 17:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)