View source for Talk:French Directory

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==Old talk page post==
Where does this text come from? It does not seem to be on the indicated website http://1911encyclopedia.org

:Try #11 and then #179 here [http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tim_Starling/ScanSet_TIFF_demo&vol=11&page=EC1A179]. It is from the 1911 Britannica. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:203.173.30.157|203.173.30.157]] ([[User talk:203.173.30.157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/203.173.30.157|contribs]]) 13 September 2006.</small> 

The directoire does not preceed the empire; it preceeds the consulate.

== Recent move ==

I have now (basically) fixed a cut-and-paste move and restored the history of this article. As usual, there are a few glitches: a few "redirect" states show up as part of the history of the article.

But, on top of that, I think the move was ill-advised. This is particularly so because [[French Directory]] was part of an article series about the French Revolutionary era, and was not just about the institution itself but about a period in French history that is usually referred to (after that institution) as the ''Directory'' or (in French) ''Directoire''. 

I would like to put the French Directory material back at [[French Directory]]. We can have a separate page [[Italian Directories]], and can add disambiguations as needed.

If we decide to leave things as they now are, there are a bunch of double-redirects that will need to be fixed. But, please, no one start on that until we actually have consensus. I will certainly not do anything precipitous in the next 48 hours, and hope that others will not, either. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 03:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the ''directoire'' is interesting more as an era (thus specific to France) than as a political system (whether or not there were other directories). Thus I think it should stay at [[French Directory]]. [[User:David.Monniaux|David.Monniaux]] 08:20, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Since no one is speaking up to the contrary, I will do this. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 20:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

== Date Discrepancy ==

"The Thermidorian Convention continued until October 26, 1795 (4 Brumaire Year IV), when the National Convention was succeeded by the French Directory." - (Under subtitle: End of Reaction) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermidorian_Reaction
"Executive Directory (in French Directoire exécutif), commonly known as the Directory (or Directoire) held executive power in France from November 2, 1795 until November 10, 1799" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Directory

As one can see there are two different dates for the beginning of the Directory. Which one is the correct date? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:70.25.116.145|70.25.116.145]] ([[User talk:70.25.116.145|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/70.25.116.145|contribs]]) 7 April 2006</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

: I'm not certain, but I believe there was a gap. There had been an even larger (and very chaotic) gap between the Legislative Assembly and the Convention. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

A pretty reasonable gap, I'd say. The Convention voted the new constitution in on 4 Brumaire, and then disbanded. A list of the 376 deputies re-elected earlier in the month was constructed on 6 Brumaire. That leaves the Directory opening for business on 11 Brumaire (2nd Nov) I don't know what importance the traditional days of the week had under the new calendar, but 10 Brumaire was a Sunday, so that left basically five or six days to get almost 500 men organised in a different building, with a different organisation, &c. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:203.173.30.157|203.173.30.157]] ([[User talk:203.173.30.157|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/203.173.30.157|contribs]]) 13 September 2006.</small>

==Neutrality==
This article contains many statements of questionable neutrality. Just a sample:

"In all these countries, they organised such an effective pillage that the French became universally hated.

As the armies were far below the strength required by the policy of unbounded conquest and rapine, the first permanent law of conscription was passed in the summer of 1798. The attempt to enforce it caused a revolt of the peasants in the Belgian departments. The priests were held responsible and some eight thousand were condemned to deportation en masse, although the much greater part escaped by the goodwill of the people. Few soldiers were obtained by the conscription, for the government was as weak as it was tyrannical."

"The French lacked any real political freedom, yet also lacked the ease or security which enlightened despotism can bestow. The Terrorists lifted their heads in the Council of Five Hundred. A Law of Hostages, which was really a new Law of Suspects, and a progressive income tax showed the temper of the majority. The Jacobin Club re-opened and became once more the focus of disorder."

At the very least, the article should be edited for neutrality. It would be good to include more sources and replace the many judgments of the Directory here with researched facts. -[[User:Thucydides411|Thucydides411]] ([[User talk:Thucydides411|talk]]) 19:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:No actual discussion of this in more than a year so removing tag; also moved thread into proper chrono order. [[Special:Contributions/72.228.177.92|72.228.177.92]] ([[User talk:72.228.177.92|talk]]) 23:02, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

::Reading the actual text, see the basis for the tagging though. Nonetheless, I think the POV is more or less that of the actual historical truth. Added tone which I guess is the actual issue. [[Special:Contributions/72.228.177.92|72.228.177.92]] ([[User talk:72.228.177.92|talk]]) 23:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

== &lt;span lang="fr"&gt;La Révellière Lépeaux&lt;/span&gt; ==

What's the use of all those lang="fr" span tag attributes throughout the code ? What do they accomplish ? --[[User:Jerome Charles Potts|Jerome Potts]] ([[User talk:Jerome Charles Potts|talk]]) 06:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

== Title of this article ==

My suggested move of the title of this article to [[Directoire]] (the same title as the French WP article) has been rejected [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Directoire&curid=13934498&diff=417073121&oldid=417004344]. 'French Directory' is comical - certainly ''not'' a well-known anglicization. No-one would be able to guess what it means. Is there another possibility? This article should be searchable/accessible to the reader. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 12:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

:No response after two years? I would like to re-propose a change to  [[Directoire]]. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 08:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
::'''Support''' –  Rushing to your side belatedly :) I fully agree: I always thought the redirect [[Directory (France)]] was a more wikified title than "French Directory", but [[Directoire]] would indeed be the most appropriate. [[User:SteveStrummer|SteveStrummer]] ([[User talk:SteveStrummer|talk]]) 16:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

:::Thanks. I've made the request (below). ''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 08:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
:::: I also hope the change is made soon, to plain 'Directoire'. I just made a google search with 'Directoire' and was quite startled to end up with 'French ''Directory'''. I don't think I had ever seen that one before.--[[User:Lubiesque|Lubiesque]] ([[User talk:Lubiesque|talk]]) 11:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

== Requested move ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Not moved''. [[User:Nathan Johnson|Nathan Johnson]] ([[User talk:Nathan Johnson|talk]]) 15:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

----


[[:French Directory]] → {{no redirect|Directoire}} – Historical term in French for precision. Present English name is ambiguous, suggesting irrelevant telephone directories, call girl rings, and whatever. ''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 08:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' I think [[WP:USEENGLISH]] takes priority in this sort of context.  The term "Directoire" is not completely unambiguous in French, although this is the primary meaning on the French Wikipedia, it could also apply to e.g. the executive committee of the Central European Bank.  I don't have enough experience of call girl rings to say what they are widely called in English or French. [[User:PatGallacher|PatGallacher]] ([[User talk:PatGallacher|talk]]) 09:30, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – In common usage, English references to the Directory tend to be unsuitably plump phrases. In historical scholarship, the terms used are simply the Directory or the Directoire. Since "Directory" is too well-used on WP and requires the addition of "French" or "(France)", I think the original "Directoire" is most preferable. Any other Directoire can be easily disambiguated, with this article as the primary meaning. [[User:SteveStrummer|SteveStrummer]] ([[User talk:SteveStrummer|talk]]) 17:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
::I see someone has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_Directory&diff=555197397&oldid=554923728 been bold] and made a change to the lede in favor of "Directorate". Questions of procedure aside, I think "Directorate" is no more helpful than "Directory" as they both have disambiguation pages of considerable length, and would each require a clunky "French"/"France" modifier. [[User:SteveStrummer|SteveStrummer]] ([[User talk:SteveStrummer|talk]]) 17:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - I don't have an opinion on the move proposal, but this article has a giant banner ''This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2011)'' on it, and therefore adding book refs should be a priority (though I've changed the Columbia Law School book for another text). Given that English sources have 3 names well represented '''Directoire, Directory, Directorate''', then all three need mentioning in lead. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 00:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' ''[http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/165043/Directory Britannica]'' and ''[http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/directory.html Columbia]'' both give "Directory". [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 11:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::Britannia occasionally fails to move from its 1911 titles. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 00:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''.  European History texts & books I've read all used "Directory."  Arguably this could be "Directory (French Revolution)" but parenthetical disambiguators are lame, so the current title is fine. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 17:23, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. A directory sounds like a telephone directory. The correct word for a group of people who are directors in English is directorate, so a better name might be [[French Directorate]]. [[User:Apteva|Apteva]] ([[User talk:Apteva|talk]]) 18:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
::Indeed, this may be the way to go if Directoire is rejected. I note the [[Directorate]] page which implies support. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Carnot ==

I notice the addition that Carnot was the only director with "a reputation for leadership or political sagacity." I think this is a bit misleading because it's not like he dominated the group. [[User:The cheerful dwarf|The cheerful dwarf]] ([[User talk:The cheerful dwarf|talk]]) 05:40, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
::Right, Carnot was moving right and at the end very close to royalists and had so much "sagacity" that did not know what was coming on 18 Fructidor and had to flee. Another "nice" line "Rewbell, Barras and La Révellière Lépeaux were Jacobin radicals; Carnot and Le Tourneur were moderates". Rewbell, Barras were Jacobin radicals??!! And another - "Gottschalk says that except for Lazare Carnot, none of the members of the Directory was particularly able"??[[User:Nivose|Nivose]] ([[User talk:Nivose|talk]]) 02:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
:::Yeah, it's an odd claim, I've removed it from the lede. —'''[[User:Nizolan|<span style="color: #880000">Nizolan</span>]]''' <sup>[[user talk:Nizolan|<span style="color: black;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 12:42, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


==President of the Directory==
Presidentship was on a rotation basis for three months, by each of the directors. Please see [http://www.archontology.org/nations/france/directory_1795_99/01_directoire_president.php  France: Presidents of the Executive Directory: 1795-1799]. Paul Barras just happened to be the only director to serve during the full term of the directorate. 
--[[User:Prabhachatterji|Prabhachatterji]] ([[User talk:Prabhachatterji|talk]]) 12:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

==The pianist with Napoleon in Egypt==
Dear Blue Indigo: The pianist with Napoleon in Egyt was Henri Jean Rigel.  He performed an opera in Cairo in 1801, and later became the official pianist of Napoleon I, then of Louis XVIII.  He had Cesar Franck as one of his pulls. Cordiallly, [[User:SiefkinDR|SiefkinDR]] ([[User talk:SiefkinDR|talk]]) 18:45, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

:Dear [[User:SiefkinDR|SiefkinDR]], Thank you! I just fell upon the above, almost one month after you posted it. ''Cordialement,'' --[[User:Blue Indigo|Blue Indigo]] ([[User talk:Blue Indigo|talk]]) 07:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

:::I love little details like this- who would ever think that Napoleon had his own pianist?   By the way, take a look sometime at my current obsession;  the articles on [[Art Deco]] and [[Le Corbusier]]. [[User:SiefkinDR|SiefkinDR]] ([[User talk:SiefkinDR|talk]]) 16:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

::::''Bonjour'' [[User:SiefkinDR|SiefkinDR]],
::::The piano was an ''Érard''. As for other interesting "little details" on Napoléon Bonaparte, he loved the violet, a shy flower as distant as can be from the imperial eagle. 
::::Have been loosely following development of the ''Art Deco'' article, not ''Le Corbusier'', and have no time to participate in their redaction, the French Directory being a handful. 
::::As for its title - upon seeing it the first time, "French Directory" brought to my mind a telephone book:) - I would have voted for the word "Directoire" in French, as it is the name of a specific era of the history of France, like ''[[Ancien Régime]]'', for instance.      
::::There are other articles in en.wiki with titles left in French, although they have a perfect English translation, such as ''[[Ménage à trois]]'' and ''[[Entente cordiale]]'', the latter being a must for ''bonne entente dans le ménage''. 
::::''Cordialement!'' --[[User:Blue Indigo|Blue Indigo]] ([[User talk:Blue Indigo|talk]]) 11:13, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

::::Bonjour, Blue Indigo. You're right, Directoire would make more sense, but I suppose for English-speaking students they're more inclined to look for Directory.  "Empire" is a nicer term, since it doesn't require any translation.  I can see why Napoleo preferred it.  Besides the costume of Emperor is pretty grand, while the Directors just looked silly with those funny hats. Cordially,  [[User:SiefkinDR|SiefkinDR]] ([[User talk:SiefkinDR|talk]]) 15:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== Requested move 9 February 2020 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved''' to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. {{#if:|<small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>|{{#if:|<small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small>}}}} [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 04:40, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
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[[:French Directory]] → {{no redirect|Directoire}} – [[WP:COMMONNAME]].

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Text !! Results
|-
| "the Directoire" -Wikipedia || [https://www.google.com/search?ei=NXpAXrusJuiMlwTLorC4Bw&q=%22the+Directoire%22+-Wikipedia&oq=%22the+Directoire%22+-Wikipedia&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2670.7445..8170...0.2..0.163.956.9j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i19j0i22i30i19j0i22i30.dj3ZP93wfO0&ved=0ahUKEwj7mpPGtcXnAhVoxoUKHUsRDHcQ4dUDCAo&uact=5 98,400]
|-
| "the French Directory" -Wikipedia || [https://www.google.com/search?ei=DHhAXpf5A9uHjLsPyeaEaA&q=%22the+French+Directory%22+-Wikipedia&oq=%22the+French+Directory%22+-Wikipedia&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2967.6960..7592...0.2..0.145.990.8j3......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i19j0i22i30i19j0i22i30.qZB5USsKllI&ved=0ahUKEwiXr5i-s8XnAhXbA2MBHUkzAQ0Q4dUDCAo&uact=5 87,500]
|}

Besides there are English dictionary entries with pronunciations which could be used in the lead:

{{blockquote|The '''Directoire''' ({{IPAc-en|ˌ|d|i|r|ɛ|k|ˈ|t|w|ɑː|r}};<ref>{{cite web|title=Directoire|website=[[CollinsDictionary.com]]|url=https://www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/directoire}}</ref> {{langx|fr|le Directoire}} {{IPA|fr|lə diʁɛktwaʁ|}}), also referred to as the '''French Directory''' or the '''French Directorate''', was...}}
{{reflist-talk}}
[[Special:Contributions/92.184.105.171|92.184.105.171]] ([[User talk:92.184.105.171|talk]]) 21:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

*The common name in English is "The Directory", and it appears from a glance that all the English sources cited in this article use that form. The Google Search results numbers are within margin of error, the number I get for the same query is 3 times higher than yours. – '''[[User:Þjarkur|Thjarkur]]''' [[User talk:Þjarkur|(talk)]] 23:56, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. "French" a disambiguator here, not part of the common name. [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+Directory%2Cthe+Directoire&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cthe%20Directory%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cthe%20Directoire%3B%2Cc0 Here] is an ngram. ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=POAwBwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false A Dictionary of French History]'' (2015) gives "Directory, French." [[User:Colin Gerhard|Colin Gerhard]] ([[User talk:Colin Gerhard|talk]]) 00:42, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Thjarkur.  History textbooks refer to it as The Directory, but additional disambiguation is needed.  Just as we have "American Civil War" rather than "The Civil War", French Directory is the best and clearest title.  [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 18:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
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== Population growth ==

"Annual population growth had dropped from 16 percent in 1785, before the Revolution, to zero in 1790; but it then rebounded to 36 percent in 1795, then down to 12 percent in 1800." I very much doubt these figures. Today even countries like Niger or South Sudan have only a growth rate of about 4% per year. I suspect, a decimal point is missing here so it should read 1.6%, 3.6% and 1.2% but these figures, too, would need a good source. If the rates refer to five-year periods, they would be more believable and they would then equate to 3.2, 7.2 and 2.4 percent per year. But then we are not talking about "annual population growth". [[User:Proofreader|Proofreader]] ([[User talk:Proofreader|talk]]) 20:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)