View source for Talk:Frederick Banting

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|listas=Banting, Frederick|blp=n|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Military history|class=C
<!-- B-Class 5-criteria checklist -->
|b1 <!-- Referencing and citations --> =n
|b2 <!-- Coverage and accuracy --> =y
|b3 <!-- Structure --> =y
|b4 <!-- Grammar and style --> =y
|b5 <!-- Supporting materials --> =y
|Biography=y|Canadian=y|US=y|WWI=y}}
{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Low}}
{{WikiProject Canada |importance=mid |on=yes |toronto=yes |toronto-importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Physiology |importance=Low |field=meta}}
}}
{{Top 25 Report|Nov 13 2016 (7th)}}
{{High traffic|date=14 November 2016|site=Google|url=https://www.google.com/#q=Frederick+Banting&oi=ddle&hl=en}}

==Farm space==
A HA is a Hectare. It's not in the article, just noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out.  - Mike

(The article mentions that the farm under dispute is "100 acre (40 ha)".  What is a 'ha'?  A unit of measure?  I didn't want to take it out, but felt that it should be questioned.  --[[User:Mechcozmo|Mechcozmo]] 21:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

: 1 acre = 0.4047 hectares [[User:Seminumerical|Seminumerical]] 10:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

==Nicolae Paulescu==

This article is about Banting, not the place to re-write scientific history.[[User:Stevenscollege|Stevenscollege]] 10:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

On further inspection of whats written in "Paulescu's discovery of insulin" and "Nobel Prize controversy" nothing was supported by an external reference, so its gone.[[User:Stevenscollege|Stevenscollege]] 10:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

: Paulescu did some work in that direction. His contribution is minor. And his influence is circumstantial -- somehow the Canadians read his published articles. Paulescu was a Chistian fundamentalist and an Iron Guard ideologist. His minions today are trying to reinvent him. In 1918 Bucharest was occupied by the Germans. Yet, there is not a shred of proof how Paulescu was restricted by the Germans to complete his studies. In 1921, 3 years later, Paulescu still had nothing. So I can speculate that in 1931, the year of his death, there wouldn't be a usable product. [[Special:Contributions/37.175.66.42|37.175.66.42]] ([[User talk:37.175.66.42|talk]]) 09:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

We are not re-writing history, merely telling the truth. Banting did not discover insulin first, it was Nicolae Paulescu. In fact, there is quite a lot of evidence for this, far more than for Banting.

: Paulescu was not even remotely a scientist, other than his function. He was violently against the Theory of Evolution half a century later. A fundamentalist orthodox his Romanian discourse is anti science and anti proof only about belief. The quality of the study can be proven by his pseudo-scientific work where he proves that jews and women are somehow less evolved than the male of the specie. [[Special:Contributions/37.175.66.42|37.175.66.42]] ([[User talk:37.175.66.42|talk]]) 09:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

: He was working on a veterinary product unfit for humans. [[Special:Contributions/37.175.66.42|37.175.66.42]] ([[User talk:37.175.66.42|talk]]) 09:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I understand that there are a number of people who would like to claim Nicolas Paulesco was the legitimate discoverer of insulin/pancreatin.  While the academic debates will continue, I'd like to suggest that there is another avanue that hasn't been explored.  Paulesco patented his process in Romania in 1921, and the American patent for Banting's version came later.  Nevertheless, if Paulesco's claim is legitimate and similar enough to the Banting method, Paulesco's patent would void Eli Lilly's patent, and both Eli Lilly and the University of Toronto would owe Romania (or Paulesco's estate) a lot of money.  This is a tangible question that can be resolved in court, and I would suggest that anybody who wants to champion Paulesco's claim to insulin should try doing it this way.  If the courts rule in Paulesco's favor, he would not only be vindicated as the discoverer of insulin, but his descendants and country would probably profit from it.

== Nicolae Paulescu ==

That is just Canadian bullcrap. 
People have the right to know the truth! <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/193.138.195.202|193.138.195.202]] ([[User talk:193.138.195.202|talk]]) 10:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:I agree, but you're definitely not helping with comments like that. ([[User:JGDo|JGDo]] ([[User talk:JGDo|talk]]) 01:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

:The truth is Nicolae Paulescu was a fanatical breeder of hate and not much. In Romania they teach everything about insulin is somehow Paulescu related. In fact, the origin of a misterious substance that hold the key to diabetes is older. An Italian located the substance in the pancreas. The Italian also developed the study method with dogs used by Paulescu. If Paulescu stops being a Romanian far right puppet people would notice there were other people doing experiments along the same lines.

I'm serious. LEARN THE TRUTH. Frederick Banting does not deserve the Nobel Prize. Canadian bullshit!!! [[User:Salvadoradi|Salvadoradi]] ([[User talk:Salvadoradi|talk]]) 22:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC) YOURE RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!

:We're more than happy to support the truth.  See my comment below.  First, Paulesco has a legitimate (albeit debatable) claim to the title "discoverer" of insulin/pancreatin.  Since the article lists Banting as a "co-discoverer," I don't see this as a problem.  Second, the fact that Paulesco published a paper on an insulin/pancreatin extract that was active in dogs a few months before Banting's paper was published does not void Banting's claim to the Nobel Prize.  At best it simply underscores the well known fact that others should have shared the prize with Banting and Macleod.  This has been known since the day it was awarded, and both Banting and Macleod protested that others should have shared in it, and split their prize money with Best and Collip, respectively.  Others, including Paulesco should have been included.  However, the idea that the Nobel Committee excluded Paulesco because his work was not known, or they didn't check the relevant invormation before awarding it to Banting and Macleod (hence, some comments here about the award to Banting being an 'error') is completely false.  Paulesco's work was mentioned in the Nobel Prize presentation speech in 1923.  Hence, nobody can claim that the Nobel Committee was unaware of Paulesco's work when they awarded the Prize to Banting and Macleod. ([[User:JGDo|JGDo]] ([[User talk:JGDo|talk]]) 01:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC))


:Where does one go to learn this "truth"? How about a couple of reliable references? By the way, the Nobel Prize is awarded by a Danish organization with input from international advisors. [[User:Silverchemist|Silverchemist]] ([[User talk:Silverchemist|talk]]) 06:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

:Here is a nice sample of Orthodox fundamentalist reasoning. Screams and self supported beliefs called truths. [[Special:Contributions/37.175.66.42|37.175.66.42]] ([[User talk:37.175.66.42|talk]]) 09:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem, if there is a problem, in my opinion, is the use of the word "discovered". Long before Banting or Paulescu did any research, it was already as good as accepted that the pancreas produces a hormone which is released into the bloodstream, an insufficiency or lack of which manifests itself as diabetes. It was one of those things where you already know that something exists and what it does, but you are trying to isolate it in a usable form. The notion that Banting set out to ascertain the cause of diabetes and ended up discovering insulin is wrong. He didn't - neither did Paulescu. A number of people had tried for years to capture the pure hormone from a pancreatic extract - and it is anyone's guess as to how pure their samples were or whether their methods would have led to usable supplies of insulin in large quantities. That fact is that apart from Banting, none of the others pursued their work to a stage of commercial production of the pure hormone.

What Banting did was to devise a way of separating the two functions of the pancreas in order to facilitate the extraction of the hormone. Once that was achieved, they had something to work with, and from there it led rapidly to the purification and then manufacture on an industrial scale.

If you play around with words, you could make an argument to the effect that no-one actually discovered insulin. But the Nobel prize was awarded for "the discovery of insulin". That is a historic fact, and this is an encyclopaedia. It is not a forum for arguing that the prize was wrongly worded. [[Special:Contributions/82.29.215.250|82.29.215.250]] ([[User talk:82.29.215.250|talk]]) 23:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


I think the article should mention that the Nobel Prize was awarded in error or at least that there is a "controversy" concering this. This would make the article consistend with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Paulescu#Nobel_Prize_controversy
[[User:-Paul-|-Paul-]] ([[User talk:-Paul-|talk]]) 10:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:I think it would be a good idea to start a separate article on the controversy surrounding both the discovery of insulin and the awarding of the 1923 Nobel Prize, which has been controversial from the beginning.  There's enough material, and the material is getting to be too extensive to put in either the insulin page, or the page about Nobel Prize controversies.  I would mention two things here, though. 

1.  The awarding of the Prize to Banting and Macleod has been controversial from the start.  Most of the controversy surrounded who was not included in the award.  The Nobel committee's own website has already discussed this, and can be used as a link:  http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/articles/lindsten/index.html

The bottom line regarding this is that nobody except Banting and Macleod were nominated, and the Nobel Prize rules state that only people who are nominated can win.  From the beginning, however, there was talk that others should have been included, but weren't.  Most notabley, the day after the announcement, Banting complained that Best should have been included, and shared his half of the prize money with Best, and Macleod claimed Collip should have been included, and likewise split his prize money with Collip.  There were others who should probably have been included as well, including Paulesco.

2.  The awarding of the Prize to Banting is not an 'error' in the sense of the Nobel Committee not knowing of Paulesco's work, as some have suggested.  It is clear that the Nobel Committee did the necessary background research on the insulin work that preceded Banting's, because they mentioned the history of insulin research in the 1923 Nobel Prize presentation speech before giving Banting and Macleod the award.  Here is the link to the speech: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1923/press.html

The relevant passage is here, where Paulesco is mentioned.
"Amongst these I should like especially to mention Zuelzer, who in 1908 produced an extract which was undoubtedly effective, but which also showed injurious by-effects-consequently it could not be used to any great extent therapeutically-and also Forschback, Scott, Murlin, Kleiner, Paulesco, and many others."
([[User:JGDo|JGDo]] ([[User talk:JGDo|talk]]) 01:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

== Banting's assistants. ==

The article claims that Banting was assigned only one assistant, a graduate student, Charles Best.  It was my understanding that  A) Banting was originally assigned two assistants, Charles Best and E. Clark Noble, and  B) Both Best and Noble were not graduate students, but 4th year undergraduates.  

Does anybody have an objection to me mentioning E. Clark Noble in this article?  

While Banting was originally given two lab assistants, for reasons that are still controversial, only Best ended up helping Banting for the summer, and Noble did not.   The controversy surrounds the story that a coin toss determined who would work with Banting, and that Best won the toss.  Banting and Noble both claimed there was a coin toss, and Best claimed there wasn't, for reasons that have been questioned (in various biographies).  At any rate, while Noble didn't get to help Banting, he was subsequently hired by Macleod to work on fish-derived insulin, and was involved in many of the early papers regarding the characterization of insulin.  Thus, I think Clark Noble, who was a good friend of Charles Best, deserves to get a mention as one of the two lab assistants that were originally assigned to help Banting. ([[User:JGDo|JGDo]] ([[User talk:JGDo|talk]]) 01:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

== Banting (crater) ==

The assertion on [[Banting (crater)]] is that the crater was named in honour of Frederick Banting's contributions to medicine, not 'named after his brother' as asse--[[User:Brenont|User:Brenont]] ([[User talk:Brenont|talk]]) 20:54, 5 October 2013 (UTC)rted in this article.

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:7|one external link|7 external links}} on [[Frederick Banting]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=678374578 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141013054109/http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronauts/osm_aviation.asp to http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/astronauts/osm_aviation.asp#WWII
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131012014742/http://www.pro.rcip-chin.gc.ca/bd-dl/aac-aic-eng.jsp?emu=en.aich:/Proxapp/ws/aich/user/wwwe/Record&upp=0&m=1&w=NATIVE%28%27ARTIST+ph+words+%27%27Frederick+Banting%27%27%27%29&order=native%28%27every+AR%27%29&bio=BANTINGSirFrederickGrant.html to http://www.pro.rcip-chin.gc.ca/bd-dl/aac-aic-eng.jsp?emu=en.aich:/Proxapp/ws/aich/user/wwwe/Record&upp=0&m=1&w=NATIVE%28%27ARTIST+ph+words+%27%27Frederick+Banting%27%27%27%29&order=native%28%27every+AR%27%29&bio=BANTINGSirFrederickGrant.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130523101748/http://forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/hist/ch-4-eng.asp to http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/hist/ch-4-eng.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071128043412/http://www.ritchies.com:80/apps/index.cfm?page=auction.popUp&itemId=81838 to http://www.ritchies.com/apps/index.cfm?page=auction.popUp&itemId=81838
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100511014602/http://www.cbc.ca:80/inventions/ to http://www.cbc.ca/inventions/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130523091730/http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/wn-qn/bulletin/2012/ba-pb-eng.asp to http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/wn-qn/bulletin/2012/ba-pb-eng.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130524045422/http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/mobil/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4297 to http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/mobil/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4297

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers. —[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 00:40, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Frederick Banting]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=711402266 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130916150110/http://banting.region13.org:80/dr_banting_history.html to http://banting.region13.org/dr_banting_history.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 17:45, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

== Google doodle mention 2016-11-14 ==

Frederick Banting is being mentioned on Google Doogle regarding Quasquicentennial (125th) anniversary since day of his birth. Honors/Awards section should be updated to reflect Google Doodle mention, maybe others on the Quasquicentennial milestone. [[User:Ryansworld100000|Ryan]] ([[User talk:Ryansworld100000|talk]]) 06:15, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2016 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Frederick Banting|answered=y}}


Delete word [England's] from [In 1934 he was knighted by England's King George V.] This is an incorrect adjective as George V was not King of England but of the United Kingdom plus many other countries, including Canada. Please see article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V for more details. Current wording suggests an honour granted by a foreign power rather than by the Canadian Head of State (in which capacity George V was acting when Knighting Banting).

[[Special:Contributions/89.206.252.11|89.206.252.11]] ([[User talk:89.206.252.11|talk]]) 11:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

{{Done}} - by another - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 08:50, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

== Odd statement about fatal crash ==

The article currently includes this strange sentence:
:According to Mackey, the sole survivor, Banting died from his injuries the next day.

Why is the qualifier "according to Mackey" included? Is it not known to be a fact that Banting died from his injuries the next day? The crash occurred at a named, settled place; were there not witnesses who saw Banting and treated his injuries during the intervening day or so? We seem to be suggesting doubt where none exists. [[User:TypoBoy|TypoBoy]] ([[User talk:TypoBoy|talk]]) 15:25, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

:Looks like I had this wrong. A New York Times article that announced Banting's death in the February 28, 1941 issue (under the headline "Dr. Banting Dead in Wrecked Plane") said the crash occurred "in the snow wastes of Newfoundland" and that there were difficulties reaching Mackey to help him.

:So, as Emily Litella would say, "Never mind". [[User:TypoBoy|TypoBoy]] ([[User talk:TypoBoy|talk]]) 16:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

== Word choice - Early Years ==

The 1st paragraph of section "Early Years" states 

"In 1910, he started at Victoria College, part of the University of Toronto, in the General Arts program. After failing his first year, he petitioned to join the medical program in 1912 and was accepted. He began medical school in September 1912.[7]:28–29"

This section is unclear to me.  Did he fail his first year of college and then apply to medical school?  Or did he apply to medical school in 1910 or 1911 and was rejected?  
Can someone with more knowledge of the subject edit for clarity?  
Thanks!--[[User:Wysockat85|Wysockat85]] ([[User talk:Wysockat85|talk]]) 16:44, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

== Patent ==

Is it true that Banting gave away the patent on insulin because he wanted it to be available to all who need it?  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.207.116.226|66.207.116.226]] ([[User talk:66.207.116.226#top|talk]]) 19:35, 14 November 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2016 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Frederick Banting|answered=yes}}
Provide citation for location of Banting's grave in Toronto.  Located under "Personal Life"

Citation is http://www.mountpleasantgroup.com/en-CA/General-Information/Our%20Monthly%20Story/story-archives/frederick-banting.aspx

[[User:Tordenois|Tordenois]] ([[User talk:Tordenois|talk]]) 20:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
:[[File:Padlock-silver-open.svg|28px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' According to the page's protection level you should be able to [[Help:Editing|edit the page yourself]]. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details.<!-- Template:ESp --> — [[User:Andy M. Wang|'''''Andy W.''''']] ([[User talk:Andy M. Wang|<span style="color:#164">talk</span>]]) 05:55, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[Frederick Banting]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=758384621 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://www.mcgill.ca/secretariat/files/secretariat/hon-alph_2.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110929000723/http://www.pwnhc.ca/timeline/index_winIFix.asp?forward=http://www.pwnhc.ca/timeline/1925/1928JacksonBanting.htm to http://www.pwnhc.ca/timeline/index_winIFix.asp?forward=http%3A//www.pwnhc.ca/timeline/1925/1928JacksonBanting.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 03:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[Frederick Banting]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=804174862 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070323090430/http://www.collectionscanada.ca/physicians/002032-200-e.html to http://www.collectionscanada.ca/physicians/002032-200-e.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

== Banting in popular culture ==

There is a music video about him, it is what caused me to look up this article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7X5jGt8lY
[[Special:Contributions/79.240.170.82|79.240.170.82]] ([[User talk:79.240.170.82|talk]]) 06:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


== Anti-Semitism ==
How is it possible that there's no discussion in this piece of his anti-Semitism, as documented by Canadian historian Michael Bliss in Banting: A Biography? Banting is reported to have said "You know if I'd known so many Jews had diabetes, I don't think I'd ever have gone into [insulin research.] On another occasion, Banting told his secretary, "...how hard it is to keep fending off people who want insulin. And besides, they're mostly Jewish."  <ref>https://ojs.library.dal.ca/DMJ/article/download/4307/3899</ref> [[User:Randal Oulton|Randal Oulton]] ([[User talk:Randal Oulton|talk]]) 22:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

==Youngest of six or five?==
This article says that Banting was the youngest of five children, but the article on him in the [[Dictionary of Canadian Biography]] says he was the youngest of six children. [[User:Rollo August|Rollo August]] ([[User talk:Rollo August|talk]]) 21:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

== Death ==

Banting died during the war in an aircraft but there is no mention of this in the article. There is an external reference link but it's pretty unclear in the article itself. [[Special:Contributions/80.193.232.49|80.193.232.49]] ([[User talk:80.193.232.49|talk]]) 13:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)