View source for Talk:Forgotten Realms

{{Notice|Wikipedia's coverage about the Forgotten Realms should focus on the real-world aspects of the game, as reported by [[WP:INDY|independent sources]]. Please do not create separate articles about fictional places or other plot details; these will typically fail the inclusion criteria ([[WP:N]], [[WP:NOT#PLOT]]) and are likely to be [[WP:DEL|deleted]]. Note that other Wikis, such as the [http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com Forgotten Realms Wikia], ''do'' cover fictional concepts from Forgotten Realms}}
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{{afd-merged-from|Erevis Cale|Erevis Cale (2nd nomination)|4 March 2021}}
{{afd-merged-from|Jarlaxle|Jarlaxle (3rd nomination)|30 January 2021}}
{{afd-merged-from|List of Forgotten Realms characters|List of Forgotten Realms characters|29 March 2020}}
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==Novel list==
I added an incomplete list of novels to the page.  I got it from my very old (1995-97) Forgotten Realms webpage, which has been offline for a long time (if someone wants to pick up the project, let me know, I have lots of archives).  Feel free to move the novels list to another place.  I also have the author names for all the books listed. [[User:Sdibb|Sdibb]] 04:37, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

==Geography==
The [[Faer&ucirc;n]] page now includes a fairly complete high-level overview of the geography of the continent. &mdash; [[User:RJHall|RJH]] 18:54, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*Isn't Icewind Dale part of this setting also? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.95.67.19|24.95.67.19]] ([[User talk:24.95.67.19#top|talk]]) 17:12, 14 November 2004 (UTC)</small>

**Yes it is.  I have no idea which of the numerous FR articles mentions it, though (Faerûn? Toril? list of FR computer games?).  The various 'top-level' FR pages could and should be merged together.  -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:20, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Where would someone find a map of the Other Continents other than Fearun? I would like to have a map of Maztica.[[User:Solon89|Solon Olrek]] 17:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I noticed in the [[Forgotten_Realms#Geography|Geography]] section on this page there is an internal link to the [[Great Wheel]].  However, this article redirects to [[Great Beijing Wheel]].  Was there an article on the Great Wheel cosmology before or has it moved at all? --[[User:RMPink|RMPink]] ([[User talk:RMPink|talk]]) 17:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

==Updating==
I've started to fill out and add to the FR pages.  Darkhold, Crown Wars, Illefarn, and Daggerford.  I'd love some feedback.--[[User:RYard|RYard]] 17:30, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

==Wikiproject==
With a lack of a template I put the link to the WikiProject at the top of this page in italics so that it can be accessed more easily. -[[User:Erolos|Erolos]] 16:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
:There is a template [[:Template:Forgotten Realms project]]. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 16:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

== Cosmology ==

The section somebody just wrote about the change to the FR cosmology in 3E seems quite POV to me, he/she is clearly one of the people who doesnt like the change. The section needs to be reworked to sound more neutral, or include references to claims that many players dont use it etc, else it should be removed as it seems to stick out somewhat. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 15:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:I fixed this problem in the rework to the best of my ability. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 02:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

== Rework ==

I've tried to rework this article in to a more encyclopedic one. I'm not a complete expert on the Forgotten Realms, I've just used what I could find, so there is a lot of room for extra stuff still to be added or redone. Hopefully this will inspire people to help improve the article. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 17:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed entry regarding "Gond." Such is written in an inappropriate context for Wikipedia, and should be included under a separate entry, not mashed in with the rest of the deities.
[[User:Maelstrom58|Maelstrom58]] 00:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)maelstrom58
== Another image ==
[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg<!-- Image removed: WotC Forgotten Realms.jpg -->|100px]]
I uploaded an image from the WotC website, which I now realize I can't use since Wikipedia policy prohibits copyrighted images to be used in templates, even when it's fair use. I'm putting it here for a while in the meantime, just to keep the orphan bot from eating it... --[[User:Maggu|Maggu]] 10:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

:Since two of these (almost identical) images now exist, we should be responsible and nominate one for deletion. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 12:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

::I've switched to using this new image as its better tagged and ill nominate the older one. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 15:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

== Novels and computer games ==

Someone has expanded the list of computer games. The purpose of the list was to show the most notable/important ones, not every FR game, which is given in the ''Main Article'' link. I propose we pick the 4-5 most important and give a summary description for each and ditch the others. The same goes for novels. For example these?:

# Pool of Radiance - the first one
# Neverwinters Nights - orginal one - first graphical MMORPG
# Baldur's Gate - v popular
# Neverwinter nights - v recent/popular/morpg

-- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 14:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

:I went and reduced the list to these four, feel free to improve the summary descriptions I gave or substitute them for games you think are more notable/important to the ''Forgotten Realms'', but I think this list shouldn't be longer than 4-5 entries. -- [[user:Lewiscrouch|<span style="color:#339900;">Lewis</span>]] 02:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

::Demon Stone is '''not''' a role playing game! It's an action game (a fighter, really) set in the Forgotten Realms world. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:85.198.224.77|85.198.224.77]] ([[User talk:85.198.224.77|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/85.198.224.77|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== dagnabbit redirect? ==

Why does "dagnabbit" redirect here? [[User:Ben Tibbetts|Ben Tibbetts]] 02:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
:See [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dagnabbit]]. --[[User:Muchness|Muchness]] 12:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you; sorry. [[User:Ben Tibbetts|Ben Tibbetts]] 19:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==Character Pole==
I would like to see what other people's favorite characters from all of the Forgotten Realms books are. (Discussion on why '''''HIGHLY''''' encouraged.) [[User:Solon89|Solon Olrek]] 18:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

My favorite character would have to be Drizzt Do'Urden. I'm not sure if part of it is because he was the first Forgotten Realms character I was introduced to, but he also has a very good story to him. He started out in life in a horrible environment, but he didn't succumb to the darkness around him, but left it behind in search of a brighter future. He faced paramounts of persecution on his journey, and ended up traveling an unbeleivable distance to finally come to a place where he was free of his past and around people he considered to be family. Not to mention he is just plain '''AWSOME'''! [[User:Solon89|Solon Olrek]] 17:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

== Goals for page ==

Eventually, as improvement for the book entries progresses, much of the content about the Campaign Setting ''books'' will be relocated to the existing [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] page, and this page will lose the D&D Books template. [[User:Serpent's Choice|Serpent&#39;s Choice]] 06:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

:What content exactly? The FR is a collection of all the books published about it, I think it would be unwise to remove any information from this article at all. The books template yes, as this article isnt about a specific book, but it should include the history of what material has been published. [[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 07:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

::There is quite a bit more that can and should be added to the article: discussion of real-world inspiration for campaign features, discussions of the geography redesign for 3E, information about how the TSR to WotC handoff affected the campaign setting.  In an effort to ensure the article size is manageable, all I'm suggesting is that the next refactoring will probably result in a ''Main article: [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]]'' line, much akin to the existing ones for video games and geography.  [[User:Serpent's Choice|Serpent&#39;s Choice]] 07:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes there's definatley more to be added to this article as you say. It would be a good idea to add a main article line directing to the FRCS article in the section about product history, but no material needs to be removed from that section at this time. This main FR article should talk about the setting as a whole while the FRCS article should just talk about the line of campaign setting books, which they do, so I dont see any need for changes at the moment, although I think I'll add in the main article link as you suggest. [[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 12:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

:::I've actually put it in as a ''see also'' at the end of the history section, since that section doesnt just talk about the campaign setting books. [[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 12:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

== What am I missing? ==

I have read the series of R.A.Salvatore several times, from Homeland and The Canticle through The Two Swords and on to 
Promise of the Witch King. Each time I reach this point I know I've missed some content, some book. Promise continues the adventures of Jarlaxle and Artemis Entreri presumably from the Servant of the Shard ending, and yet there are characters and inferences to other material between these two novels. For example, Entreri's personal battle of owning the jeweled dagger that steals the very life essence of its victim. His skin now holds a grey hue from having used the dagger on a Shade. Which text is this in? Athrogate is commissioned to follow the drow and human duo to Bloodstone Village, and speaks as if he is well aware of the prowess of our protagonists from experience. Jarlaxle, and Entreri by association, are now in the employ of two dragon sisters, Ilnezhara and Tazmikella, and yet I feel as if their current relationship could not have been thrown at readers assuming they will take the current situation for given, there needs to be some history that I am lacking. Please tell me the title of the novel I am missing, I presume containing Jarlaxle and Entreri's dealings with the town of Heliogabalus and the reason The Promise begins with the pair exploring the tower of Zhengyi. I apologize for my ignorance and thank you in advance for any fruitful response.

[[User:66.177.111.198|66.177.111.198]] 02:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)CMW

The one thing I've always wondered is who forgot them? The use of the New World to mean the Americas clearly says something about the viewpoint of the people to whom the New World was new. Who though forgot the Forgotten Realms?--[[User:Nickpheas|Nickpheas]] 18:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
:We did, those of us living on Earth.  [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 17:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

== Merge [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] ==
I don't see how the book about the setting is notable enough in and of itself to warrant a separate article. Surely it can be described adequately here. [[User:Hairy Dude|Hairy Dude]] 22:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

:I would tend to agree, maybe it is not notable enough in its own right. However the Forgotten Realms is more than what is described in that single/series book, and I don't really think the information contained in that article would be usefully placed here, or anywhere in fact. I think the whole line of articles that describe the irrelevant details of individual sourcebooks are somewhat pointless so I '''do not support the merging or these two articles'''. 
:I would prefer the other article deleted entirely, but there appears to be support for this aforementioned line of rulebook articles if the existence of the template at the bottom of each of the pages is anything to go by. --[[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 19:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

::''''I am also opposed to the merger of these two articles''''. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting article is about a role playing book (of the same name) and the Forgotten Realms article is about the campaign setting itself. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting article should be confined entirely to the book (and should not refer to anything not contained within it).

::The Forgotten Realms article should discuss the campaign setting as a whole (and therefore should only cover the role playing book called Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in passing). The Forgotten Realms article should be covering all of the role playing products, the novels and computer games (most of which have nothing to do with this book).

::Merger of Forgotten Realms articles should be left to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Forgotten_Realms|Forgotten Realms WikiProject]] or the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dungeons_%26_Dragons|Dungeons and Dragons Wikiproject]] as both of those projects understand what this article is about and how it relates to ones with similar (but not identical) subjects. [[User:David Shepheard|Big Mac]] 22:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
:::'''No merge'''. I agree with Big Mac.--[[User:Robbstrd|Robbstrd]] 21:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


'''Do not Merge''' There appears to me to be enough encyclopedic information in article [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] specifically about the products of this name, the different version and what is included in each that is too detailed to be placed in the main Forgotten Realms article here. FR Campaign setting should be a subarticle going into more detail on a topic that is summarised in FR main article. Both need a lot of work and probably some shuffling and consolidation between each other, but they do not need a merge. - [[User:Waza|Waza]] 11:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::I apologize for the last message left on this page by my acount. My brother decided to cause some mischeif amoung the articles I was watching and even preceded to change a few I was not. Anyway, about the current issue. I think that there should be a few links to the [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] and that it should be left at that. This way, it doesn't clutter up the [[Forgotten Realms]] article, yet it isn't deleted, therefor provided interested readers the information they desire, should they follow the link that is.[[User:Solon89|Solon Olrek]] 20:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with a merger.  Every WotC roleplaying product has it's own page with a very brief description of the contents of the book with things that wouldn't belong on a pages like this one, i.e. notes about errata corrections, trivial information about when it was written, who wrote it, or other circumstances related to publishing and or rules but not the fictional aspect.  --[[User:Rezanow|Rezanow]] 17:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

:'''Do Not Merge''' but there is urgent work to be done on [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] to differentiate it from this article - an intro paragraph would be an excellent start. [[User:BreathingMeat|BreathingMeat]] 20:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

::Since there appears to be a consensus that the articles shouldn't be merged I'm removing the merge tag. [[User:AgentLewis|Lewis]] 22:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

== criticism ==

it seems that Richard Baker has been under some criticism about the changes proposed in conjunction with 4th edition D&D towards Forgotten Realms.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?&p=14002775&postcount=19

should any of this be included on this page since he himself had to include mention of it in his own blog as a game designer?

[[User:Shadzar|shadzar]]|[[User talk:Shadzar|Talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Shadzar|contribs]] 15:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
:I don't really see the need. Wikipedia isn't a play by play commentary on every little ever said about something and every little nit picking thing some fans may have about a subject. If we did that we'd end up with monstrous articles on any subject that related to the internet at all because there is always someone complaining about something. If a game magazine picks up the criticism in any great detail then it might be worth mentioning.--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] 16:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

== Dagnabbit ==

Dagnabbit redirects here. I searched for it looking for info on the mild oath, and apparently, after checking history, it's the son of someone from forgotten realms. However, dagnabbit isn't actually MENTIONED on the page, thus, it's a very confusing redirect.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/60.87.59.8|60.87.59.8]] ([[User talk:60.87.59.8|talk]]) 14:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: This is unfortunately true of... almost all the redirects that point here, probably, because so many D&D-related articles were made into redirects (instead of simply being deleted) when they went through the AfD process. [[User:V2Blast|V2Blast]] ([[User talk:V2Blast|talk]]) 04:34, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

== Forgotten Realms project ==

[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Forgotten Realms]] has been inactive for quite a while; most of the associated articles are flagged for cleanup, and may actually fail the inclusion criteria. For a proposal how to deal with this situation consistently, please see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Forgotten Realms/Closure]]. Comments are welcome. --[[User:B. Wolterding|B. Wolterding]] ([[User talk:B. Wolterding|talk]]) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

== Good Article? ==

Hey there. :) In our recent push to get D&D articles up to [[:Category:GA-Class D&D articles|Good Article]] status, we have been successful with [[Gary Gygax]] and [[Wizards of the Coast]]. My original intention was to move immediately on to [[Dragonlance]] and then [[Forgotten Realms]]. However, looking at both of them (and [[Drow (Dungeons & Dragons)|Drow]], the only other article in the 0.7 CD selection), I realize that they are both hardly referenced at all, and even then are referenced mostly to primary sources. I know that they both have as much ''potential'' to get to GA as the EGG and WotC articles, but due to lack of sourcing and relying on in-universe info, they are both a long way off.

What we need are reliable sources, with which to source the info in these articles. If you have a book or magazine or something and can do the sourcing work yourself, then great. If you can point me to a website, then I can do the work. We need creator interviews, product reviews, publishing and sales information for the product lines, etc. Feel free to discuss here, or on the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons#Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms|WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons talk page]]. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 20:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
==Focus==
{{Notice|This article is currently a Focus article for the [[WP:D&D|Dungeons & Dragons WikiProject]]. The goal of the focus right now is to:
#Get the article up to <s>B or</s> GA class.
#<s>Rewrite the article to be more out-of-universe. Information on how the Forgotten Realms were created and other such information is better than in-universe text.</s>The article is now mostly out-of-universe, but the in-universe text is in need of citations.
#<s>Find a better format for the article's lists, splitting them into a separate article if nescessary.</s>
This article was deemed a Focus by [[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) on 16:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)}}

We should only have one of the logos, to meet the "minimum use" requirement for non-free images. Which should be kept? -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 23:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

:I always liked the original. ;) If they are using the same one in 4E that they used in 3E, I guess we can use that one, otherwise I prefer the 1E/2E logo. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 23:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
::I think that the original is better, too. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 23:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ooh... I really need to go back and get [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/9780786947317 this] one day! [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 19:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:I think it's probably up to a B now, or at least close. We're on the right track to getting it to GA. After I work on a few more deity pub histories, I'll have a look at some of the in-universe parts. We're badly in need of some creator interviews or something, which I think are probably easier to obtain than we're making it out to be. ;) Although it's a primary source, when I was working on [[Forgotten Realms Adventures]] yesterday, I noted that [[Jeff Grubb]]'s introduction had a few paragraphs on the creation of the setting and its transition to official game world, so I tossed those references in. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 19:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::I'll look for some sources for the in-universe stuff, too. I think that that section can pretty much rely on primary sources if there are enough secondary sources in the article as a whole. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 19:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:::That's true, especially if ''at least'' half of the article focuses on the setting's development, production, sales & reception, and licensing. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 19:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

== Reconstruction ==

Hoo, boy. In looking how we can rebuild this one, I'm looking at the lead first. Most of what's currently in the lead needs to get removed. Not necessarily removed from the article, but definitely removed from the lead.  Maybe we could have a "conception" section (hey, see if Bilby is interested, after what he did with [[kender]]?) for a lot of that, but that's way too much background story for the article's overview/summary. After gutting the lead, we could cut it down to something like this, and rebuild it from there:

:The Forgotten Realms is a campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) fantasy role-playing game, created by Canadian author and game designer Ed Greenwood. Commonly referred to by players and game designers alike as simply "The Realms", it is one of the most popular D&D settings, brought about largely due to the success of novels by authors such as R. A. Salvatore and numerous computer role-playing games such as Pool of Radiance, Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights. The primary focus of the setting is the continent of Faerûn, part of the fictional world of Abeir-Toril, an Earth-like planet with many real-world influences. The Forgotten Realms is currently one of only two campaign settings, along with Eberron, for which official Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast is still creating new material.

:According to the creators, the "Forgotten Realms" is the name of an imaginary fantasy world that exists somewhere beyond our own world. It is described as a world of strange lands, dangerous creatures, and mighty deities, where magic and seemingly supernatural phenomena are quite real. Ostensibly, once upon a time, our Earth and the world of the Forgotten Realms were somehow more closely connected. As time passed, we, the inhabitants of planet Earth, have mostly forgotten about the existence of that other world -- hence the term "Forgotten Realms".

The rest of the lead is mostly in-universe material that we could dump into another section for now to work on later. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 20:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC) 

:Sounds good. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 20:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, you moved that to the same spot I was thinking of putting it. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 21:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::As for the History section, I think the best thing to do here would be to reorganize it by edition, like I do with my deity/monster publication histories. :) First section would be a "pre-history", that is detailing when Ed was using it as a setting for writing stories, turning it into a setting for his D&D game, publishing articles in Dragon, and then selling the thing to TSR. Then we'd have a 1st edition section, which would talk about the grey box release and Darkwalker on Moonshae (official FR products, now), moving into the first set of [[Companions of the Hall]] novels, and the [[Gold Box]] games, and the beginning of the setting's popularity (I think a lot of people forget that the setting really got going in 1E). 2E came around shortly after that, and began with [[Forgotten Realms Adventures]] and the [[The Avatar Series]] and then the game exploded with a shitload of accessories, modules, and [[boxed set]]s, and many more novels and computer games licensed, culminating in [[Baldur's Gate]]. 3E starts with the new [[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]] hardcover (the previous two were boxed sets), going into products released for that edition, and getting into [[Neverwinter Nights]]. 4E would be as it is, taking us into today. 2E should almost certainly be the largest section, because that was the height of the setting (and the campaign setting craze in general). Right now, there aren't many products mentioned, perhaps largely because of the lack of 2E support Wikipedia has gotten in terms of articles about books. I've written a few lately and there were a few already and I'll probably do more later, so maybe we need a [[:Category:Forgotten Realms books]] (or something else to clearly distinguish it from [[:Category:Forgotten Realms novels]], which would take boxed sets into account without being as vague as "products"). [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 20:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:::Sounds excellent! I've reworked the lead, and can take a look at the history section soon unless you want to (by "soon" I mean either in a few hours or tommorrow; I need to take a break for now). -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 20:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Also, I've created the category and will populate it momentarily. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 20:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Good deal. :) I'm going to proofread/copyedit the history a bit, but I don't want to rework it yet because there's too much important stuff missing. ;) Have at it! [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 21:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::Okay, I'll start later/tomorrow. Also, I reverted the addition of "is one of two settings still actively supported...," with a reason in the edit summary. If you think it should really be in there, though, go right ahead. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 21:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::Nope, bye-bye. ;) I just finished the proofread/copyedit the history thing. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 21:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to use [http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/index.htm this site] (bookmark it!) to help me get the product listings right... since there were so very few 1E products for FR, I'm going to list most of them. For 2E I'll have to be more selective. Will get to that in a few minutes. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 00:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:Bookmarked. Out of curiosity, do you know why the URL is "Home.flash.net"? -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 00:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::No idea! [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 01:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::OK, I added all the officially FR 1E products that I am aware of. Obviously, since we are talking about approximately a two-year span, there weren't many. But there you go! The few items that don't have articles probably should, but hey. You can mess around with that section if you like, while I toss up some of the 2E stuff. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 01:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Okay. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 02:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm planning on working on this article some more in the near future. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 04:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
:No rush. I'll help you out once the [[Gen Con]] and [[Gary Gygax]] reviews slow down a little. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 12:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

===Second edition products===
I put most of the gaming products up through 1993 into the article. I'm not sure what else needs to be mentioned, although I'm sure [[Faiths & Avatars]] is definitely one of them. Here is a list of what I did not include; anything you feel needs working in, go for it. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 17:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Boxed Sets 
*1104 The Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994)
*1109 City of Splendors
*1111 Elminster’s Ecologies (1994)
*1120 Ruins of Zhentil Keep (1995)
*1121 Spellbound (1995)
*1142 The North
*1147 Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic (1996)
*1159 Lands of Intrigue (1997)
*9561 Empires of the Shining Sea  (1998)

Accessories 
*9430 Elves of Evermeet (1994)
*9475 The Seven Sisters (1995)
*9487 Giantcraft (1995)
*9491 Pages From the Mages (1995)
*9492 Wizards & Rogues of the Realms (1995)
*9509 Warriors & Priests of the Realms (1996)
*9547 Cult of the Dragon (1998)
*11316 Demihumans of the Realms (1999)
*11430 Secrets of the Magister (2000)

*2142 PG2 Player’s Guide to the Forgotten Realms Campaign (1993)

*9401 TM4 The City of Waterdeep Trail Map
*9402 TM5 Kara-Tur Trail Map

*1165 Arcane Age: Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (1998)
*9558 Arcane Age: The Fall of Myth Drannor (1998)

*8442 The Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990)
*9410 Cormyr (1994)
*9465 Book of Lairs (1994)
*9474 The Moonsea (1995)
*9520 The Vilhon Reach
*9545 Prayers From the Faithful
*9575 The City of Ravens Bluff (1998)
*9589 Calimport (1998)
*11348 Skullport (1999)
*11393 Sea of Fallen Stars (1999)
*11509 Drizz't Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark (1999)
*11627 Cloak & Dagger (2000)

*9525 Heroes’ Lorebook (1996)
*9552 Villains’ Lorebook (1998)

*9516 Faiths & Avatars (1996)
*9563 Powers & Pantheons (1997)
*09585 Demihuman Deities (1998)

*9379 Volo’s Guide to Waterdeep (1992)
*9393 Volo's Guide to the North (1993)
*9460 Volo’s Guide to the Sword Coast (1994)
*9486 Volo’s Guide to Cormyr
*9524 Volo’s Guide to the Dalelands (1996)
*9535 Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical (1996)
*11626 Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II (2000)
*9358 Aurora’s Whole Realms Catalogue (1992)

*9489 Elminster’s Ecologies Appendix I (1995)
*9490 Elminster’s Ecologies Appendix II (1995)

*2104 MC3 Monstrous Compendium
*2125 MC11 Monstrous Compendium (1991)

Adventures 
*9484 The Sword of the Dales (1995)
*9485 The Secret of Spiderhaunt (1995)
*9488 The Return of Randal Morn (1995)

*9519 Dungeon Crawl: Undermountain: The Lost Level
*9528 Dungeon Crawl: Undermountain: Maddgoth's Castle (1996)
*9538 Dungeon Crawl: Undermountain: Stardock (1996)
*9562 Dungeon Crawl: Hellgate Keep (1998)
*11622 Dungeon Crawl: The Dungeon of Death (2000)

*9531 Four From Cormyr (1997)
*9540 Arcane Age: How the Mighty Are Fallen (1996)
*9544 Castle Spulzeer (1997)
*9574 For Duty & Deity (1998)
*9590 Kidnapped (1998)
*11337 The Accursed Tower (1999)
*11405 Wyrmskull Throne (1999)

*9444 Marco Volo Departure (1994)
*9450 Marco Volo Journey (1994)
*9455 Marco Volo Arrival (1994)

:Thanks! I'll see what I can do. -[[User:Drilnoth|Drilnoth]] ([[User talk:Drilnoth|talk]]) 20:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
::I'm going to add articles for a few of the current redlinks, as well. I'll remove those which I'm definitely not going to write. Some, if you don't mind, may remain for a little while until I decide whether or not to deal with them. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 20:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
:::OK, if it's a redlink, then I own it and may or may not create an article in the near future. :) If I decide not to, I'll remove the link. Otherwise, carte blanche for all on the article. ;) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 21:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

:I'd like to suggest adding a little more information about the publication of maps for FR. In addition to the maps in the accessory boxes and campaign setting publications, the following were notable:
:*{{cite book 
 | first=Karen Wynn | last=Fonstad
 | date=August 1990
 | title=The Forgotten Realms Atlas 
 | publisher=TSR | id=8442
 | isbn=0880388579 }}
:*{{cite video
 | people=ProFantasy Software Ltd
 | title=Forgotten Realms: Interactive Atlas
 |date=1999 | publisher=TSR | id=11451
 | medium=CD ROM | asin=B00002EIWT }}
:Not sure if there is a source that discusses the map making for these publications. Thanks.&mdash;[[User:RJHall|RJH]] ([[User_talk:RJHall|''talk'']]) 21:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
::Don't know! [[The Forgotten Realms Atlas]] has its own article though, which discusses both. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 00:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

==Origin Story==
As i recall from the second edition's campaign guide, Ed Greenwood said that the title "Forgotten Realms" came from the fact that the origins of most of the setting were found as several years' worth of idea scraps in a drawer at TSR, and given to him (Greenwood) as a project to be converted into a new setting.  Having played in first edition, i do not believe that the setting existed before second that i know of.  Anyway, the idea was that all these ideas had been forgotten in this drawer until someone found them one day, hence they became the "Forgotten Realms".  The book in question belonged to a very dear friend of mine whom i do not currently have ready access to, as he lives several states away, can anyone independently verify this as i wait for his answer?  [[User:Dunerat|dunerat]] ([[User talk:Dunerat|talk]]) 02:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

==Including Link to Forgotten Realms Wiki?==
Hello! Recently the link to the [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page Forgotten Realms Wiki] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Forgotten_Realms&type=revision&diff=932527558&oldid=931197121 has been removed] by [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] based on the [[WP:ELNO]], specifically point 12. Exempt from deletion according to that guideline are only links to open wikis "with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors".

The Forgotten Realms Wiki has been alive and kicking [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:About#History since 2005], has [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Statistics 30,000+ articles], [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Special:ListUsers a number of active users] and a steadily high acitivity, being currently [https://community.fandom.com/wiki/WAM?verticalId=0&date=1577577600&page=4 rank no. 70 at Wikia] with a WAM score of 97.37 (whatever that means). So my first thought was that the Forgotten Realms Wiki would be just such an exception. However it seems in general [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard#Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?|100 or more active editors are expected]], where the Forgotten Realms Wiki had about 60 active registered editors during the last month.

I would argue that having that link would still be useful for the readers of Wikipedia (which should be the main goal), because it is a valuable resource for people interested in the topic of "Forgotten Realms" and perfectly complementary to the topic's treatment at Wikipedia. (Forgotten Realms Wiki has the same emphasis on correct sourcing - albeit with primary sources - and covers everything that goes beyond Wikipedia's notability scope.) On the other hand the risk of the site being overrun by spammers and vandals, which seems to be the reason for requiring this "substantial number of editors" in the guideline, seems very small to me as the Wiki has existed and grown for 15 years and is going strong now.

What are other people's opinions? Thank you for bearing with me so far! [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 21:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

:If you look at [[Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard#Betty_Boop_Wikia|this discussion further up at ELN]] relating to another Wikia wiki, you'll see that the rationale for having that exception at all is disputed. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 23:51, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

::True, but in the same discussion reasons for why this exception exists are also given. And as far as I can see all the underlying reasons given both there and in the [[Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_10#Exclude_wikis.3F|linked original discussion]] apply to the Forgotten Realms Wiki. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
:::I agree that the link should be included. It appears to be the most complete source of fan information for the fictional universe, which should overshadow the activity statistics. It doesn't seem like there's any reason for it not to be included and it will help people find information that is not notable enough for Wikipedia.<sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 19:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::::The reason for it not to be included is that it fails ELNO. That it's a source of fan information is not a redeeming point. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 20:59, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
::::Also both of you should be aware of [[WP:CANVASS]]. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 21:00, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::I'm not sure what [[WP:CANVASS]] has to do with this. The message on my talk page was neutral and did not tell me to !vote a certain way. My vote was simply based on [[WP:IAR]] as well as [[WP:COMMONSENSE]].<sub><small>[[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] ([[User Talk:Zxcvbnm|TALK]])</small></sub> 05:07, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
::::::I think that the argument for inclusion is not that is is a source of fan information. Rather that it is exactly the opposite of point 1 of what ELNO says an external link should not be: The Forgotten Realms Wiki ''does'' provide a unique resource beyond what the article contains. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 08:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::::But because it is a fan wiki, the reliability of that information is questionable. ZXCVBNM, specifically VOTESTACK - selective notification. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 11:44, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
::::::::The possible canvassing would be on me, being the invitor. I have only looked more closely at this policy now. I have unsucessfully tried finding more opinions on the WikiProject first, <small>(It seems I misremembered and asked elsewhere, sorry. I have put the question there now, let's see if we get more input. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC))</small> and was looking for more opinions, because I think that two (opposing) opinions are somewhat lacking. I am also still convinced that [[User:Zxcvbnm|ZXCVBNM]] falls under  "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" as he was part of several discussions about the proper relationship between Wikipedia and fan wikis. If I have been disruptive anyway, I apologize. Do you see a better way of getting more opinions?
::::::::About being a fan wiki again: The Forgotten Realms Wiki has using published information as a basis as its primary policy, thus it actively works on being reliable. Surely there are errors and mistakes, but I am convinced that they are few and far between. I am also sure that Wikipedia itself contains mistakes, Wikipedia working on exactly the same basis (fans of the project being authors and so on...), so I still see no reason to forbid that link on that basis.  [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::Absolutely Wikipedia itself contains mistakes, that's why [[WP:CIRC|we don't cite it as a source]]. (In terms of getting more opinions, generally that's why discussing at a central venue like [[WP:ELN|ELN]] is better...). [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 20:23, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Well, we ''did'' [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 23#Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?|discuss]] it at [[WP:ELN|ELN]], and as far as I can gather we did end up with two opinions in favor and two opinions opposed to including that link. That's how we ended up here. We also got the suggestion to look at [[WP:ELBURDEN]], or in other words, to answer [[WP:1Q|the one question]].<br>
I ''am'' still convinced that inclusion of this link ''does'' improve Wikipedia, because it does provide a vast and - generally - reliable and correct source of information about the Forgotten Realms beyond what Wikipdia covers. (It also has nothing to do with [[WP:OR]], because it's not used to reference anything, just a place with more.) I am sure there are users of Wikipedia who want to go beyond what is present in this article. I am happy to expand on this if necessary. Do you see this as wrong?<br>
On the other hand what would be the drawbacks of have that link? That that wiki could provide non-reliable information. And that it might become a source of spam or problematic content some time in the future. I have given reasons why I think both risks are low. Did I miss other points? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:17, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
:I still hold that the answer to the 1Q in this case is no. It's not a link I would like to see promoted, given the current guidance at EL. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 21:13, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
::Would you like to give your reasons why you see the answer as no? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 09:38, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
:::We are deliberately very careful about the number and type of external links included under our guidelines, as we're not intended to be a directory for all websites that might be of interest to people reading a particular page. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 12:40, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
::::Not even a few (in this case more than one) which, to quote [[WP:EL]] "contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as [...] amount of detail"? But I guess I am repeating myself now. Could you be so kind, if you come upon a way to involve more Wikipedians in this question without canvassing, to let me know? Thanks a lot! [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
:::::As no new opinions have been forthcoming for quite some time, I have reinstated the external link based on the current slight 2-to-1-opinions in favor here (or 3-to-2 in favor when including [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard/Archive_23#Forgotten_Realms_Wiki_acceptable%3F Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?]). If there's a better way to deal with that, or how to get more opinions, please let me know. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 08:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
::::::The ELN discussion did not find consensus in favour of including this link. You can either restart discussion there, or open an RfC to seek additional input. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 13:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Allright, I guess I'll start with trying to restart the discussion at ELN first. Maybe you can help me out: Do I republish the archived discussion, or just link there? Should I inform the editors involved in the past discussion? May I inform ZXCVBNM, or would you consider that canvassing even though they are obviously interested in the subject? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 18:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
::::::::I would suggest just linking there and pinging previous participants. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:41, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
<br>
<br>
Hi. For the sake of documentation and as a service to new readers of this discussion, here is a link to a previous discussion on the Notice Board about the same issue: '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard/Archive_23#Forgotten_Realms_Wiki_acceptable%3F Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?]'''.

It is also linked in the discussion above, but is very hard to spot. so here it is for everyone to see and read. [[User:RhinoMind|RhinoMind]] ([[User talk:RhinoMind|talk]]) 21:58, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

== Missing information ==

[[Waterdeep#Government]] mentions "[[The Four (Forgotten Realms)|The Four]]", which redirects here.  The problem is, "The Four" are mentioned nowhere in this article.  By the way, I added the appropriate template to that redirect; whoever fixes this problem will need to remove it.  [[User:ZFT|ZFT]] ([[User talk:ZFT|talk]]) 04:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

:I have changed the redirect to the [[Waterdeep#Government]] for the time being. Is that acceptable to all? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 19:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

: The same is unfortunately true of... almost all the redirects that point here, probably, because so many D&D-related articles were made into redirects (instead of simply being deleted) when they went through the AfD process. Very few of them actually have that content mentioned in this article, especially more than just in passing. [[User:V2Blast|V2Blast]] ([[User talk:V2Blast|talk]]) 04:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

== GA Reassessment ==

{{WP:Good article reassessment/Forgotten Realms/1}}
== "Chultan Peninsula" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Chultan Peninsula]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 21#Chultan Peninsula]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Jontesta|Jontesta]] ([[User talk:Jontesta|talk]]) 18:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

==Elminster sources==
Hello [[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]]! You have [https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-greatest-wizard-elminster/ removed] the sources for Elminster that I had added before because they are supposedly fake. Let's please work out why you think that or where I made a mistake. I can assure I've made those additions in good faith.
*For ''Wizards: The Myths, Legends, and Lore'' I had looked a Google Books [https://books.google.de/books?id=RW_tDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Wizards:+The+Myths,+Legends,+and+Lore+Elminster&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Elminster&f=false here]. A search for "Elminster" currently reveals four pages where he is mentioned, unfortunately without giving page numbers. One of those states that Elminster and Gandalf conform to the same type.
*[https://www.cbr.com/dungeons-dragons-greatest-wizard-elminster/ CBR]: The whole article is about Elminster, with the name even being part of the URL, I cannot really see where the problem lies. To quote a line: "Intentionally drawing inspiration from mythical and literary figures like Odin, Merlin and Gandalf, Elminster is the Forgotten Realms’ gray-bearded, pointy hat wearing, pipe-smoking, immortal sage."
*''[[Heroes' Lorebook]]'': I'll look into detail another time. But the Wikipedia article tells us Elminster is in that book (and how would he not feature there?) AND he appears on the cover! A am baffled. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
::Ok, I did look at ''Heroes' Lorebook'' again. First, I forgot to provide a page number when adding that reference. So what did you refer to with "the linked page doesn't even mention the subject (!)"? Second, as expected Elminster does have an entry in the ''Heroes' Lorebook'', pages 48-50, which does have all the content it had referenced, meerschaum pipe and all. So, please let me how you came to the conclusion that the references were "false" and "fake". [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 16:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
:::I can't speak for Piotrus, but ''Heroes' Lorebook'' is a primary source and that ''Wizards'' book was written by "a freelance writer" for a sketchy self-pub publisher, and isn't actually cited anywhere. As for CBR, I can't help but notice that [[WP:CMC/REF]] specifically calls out 2 of their columns as reliable, but not the entire site. And [[WP:VG/S]] lists other sites by the same publisher as unreliable or inconclusive. (See [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 23#THEGAMER|discussion here]].) So I don't think these sources meet [[WP:RS]]. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 17:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
:::: General reminder that primary sources are allowed for plot & character details ([[WP:PRIMARYCARE]]). I would also say that a publisher can have sites that are considered reliable (ex. AV Club) & not reliable (ex. Jezebel). I think CBR is a RS. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 18:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::Primary sources ''can'' be used, sure, but for basic factual claims. We shouldn't be writing entire sections of the article around them. Reliable, third-party sources should always guide our content, especially when it comes to disputed content. And when sources are disputed, editors who want to use them should take it to RSN. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 19:23, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
::::::Hello [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]]! I think [[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]] was coming from quite a different direction as "all refs for Elminster were fake and didn't even mention him" is quite a different critique than that the source is primary or the reliability is in question. As for your critique, I agree with [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]]. What can be more reliable about a fictional character than a primary source about it? Primary sources with regard to notability are an entirely different matter of course, but that fortunately is not the issue here. Also, the one primary source was used for half a sentence, so that should not be a big issue here. I wouldn't have thought that any of this was controversial, but we will see.
::::::Is [[Adams Media]] really a [[self-publishing]] platform? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::::[[WP:RS]] is clear that we should be basing our articles on independent sources. We can fill in the gaps with primary sources, but third-party sources should always be guiding our content and highlighting what's important enough to mention. Otherwise, articles like this would just be one massive summary of every FR sourcebook. I mean, this is one of the main reasons why the article was delisted as a good article.
:::::::As for Adams Media, it was a quick-turnaround non-fiction (mostly self-help) publisher that relied on amateur freelance writers. They also published ''Vampires: The Myths, Legends, and Lore'' by the same author. I'm not able to find any credentials or background or citations that would indicate the author is a reliable source. I'll walk back the claim that it was self-published, because I'm no longer sure that's the case. Note that S&S acquired Adams Media in 2016—two years after the source in question was published—but it's not like they've moved on to publishing scholarly works. It's a lot of pop schlock: cookbooks, self-help, dream interpretation, quote collections, etc. In other words, they don't exactly have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 21:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::::: And the manual of style is also clear that you can use primary sources for plot details ([[MOS:FICTIONPLOT]] & [[MOS:PLOTSOURCE]]). Secondary sources are encouraged for adding contextual details & analysis but not required in a plot section. So in the case of Elminster, we can use a primary source for his pipe or his magical background but to compare him to other fictional wizards (Gandalf, Merlin, etc) it requires a secondary source (and fortunately, [[io9]] works as a source for this). [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I misclicked the sources. I do agree now that they mention him in said comparisons, I am not sure how I missed it in the first place. [[User:Woodroar]], are you saying that [[Simon and Schuster]], publisher of ''Wizards: The Myths, Legends, and Lore'', is a self-publisher? Anyway, now that we have some sources that do compare El to Gandalf and others, what we need is perhaps the most important thing (for this entire section): a reliable, independent source that lists 'main/important/notable/whatever characters from Forgotten Realms'. We, the editors, can't decide who they are. We need sources to tell us that, preferably independent (i.e. not from DnD books themselves). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 07:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
:I'm saying that when Adams Media published ''Wizards'' in 2014, it wasn't a particularly reputable publisher. That's not to say that they were ''disreputable'', only that I'm unable to find reliable sources citing their books. And it's easy to see why, because the author of ''Wizards'' was a freelance writer and not an expert of some kind. Simon & Schuster acquired Adams Media in 2016, and they're still producing pop books that probably make a lot of money but aren't cited by reliable sources. But really, the whole Simon & Schuster part is irrelevant. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 16:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
::For what it's worth, the other book by the same author and pulisher that [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] mentioned, ''Vampires: The Myths, Legends, and Lore'', is [https://scholar.google.de/scholar?cites=15521968213802923468&as_sdt=2005&sciodt=0,5&hl=de cited a few times] by books from different publishers, including a paper from the ''Journal of English Studies'' (no idea, how reputable that is). I think its a popular book, not a scholarly one, but that wouldn't disqualify it. Anyway, it's not really relevant here any more, as [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] has found different sources. - Thanks a lot for that! [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
== "Dragonspine Mountains" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Dragonspine Mountains]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 28#Dragonspine Mountains]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] ([[User talk:Awesome Aasim|talk]]) 21:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

== Catti-Brie claiming sexist ==

Since I was reverted, need some input here.
The article now reads: ''Some critics have highlighted her introduction in The Icewind Dale Trilogy as limited and sexist.''

A woman who has published a total of one article at [[Tor]] titled ''Searching for Body Positivity in Fantasy'' rants about how happy she was when she found a book where a fat woman was labeled as attractive, then whines about how in various other books the women who are beautiful are not fatties like her.  She claims this is clearly sexism.  The bit she quotes from the book simply calls Catti-brie "beautiful", there no description about her body parts or whatnot, so how is that "sexist"? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Forgotten_Realms&diff=prev&oldid=1004193438&diffmode=source]

The other part I tried to remove [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Forgotten_Realms&type=revision&diff=1004194112&oldid=1004193438&diffmode=source] is the part calling her limited.  The reference doesn't say "limited", she was a main character with an important job, that clearly mentioned in the [[io9]] blog article, but the critic complains she only "gets only a few dozen lines".  Based on this single critic saying that, should it state that "some critics" instead of "one critic" complains she is "limited?" [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 19:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

*Whether the comments from the Tor.com opinion piece could be objectively considered reflective of critical consensus or otherwise is a matter of debate, though the retrospective reviews for The Icewind Dale trilogy novels by the io9 blog posts certainly support the notion that the characterization (or lack of) of female characters like Catti-brie are problematic for the series within that time period, so "limited" is not an unreasonable conclusion based on a reading of the sources. I think it is bad form to remove them unless they are actually irrelevant to the topic at hand or are already vetted as unreliable sources like Gamerant (which I did remove), but rewriting the prose to properly frame the viewpoint in a neutral manner is certainly reasonable. [[User:Haleth|Haleth]] ([[User talk:Haleth|talk]]) 08:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

*A search through Wikipedia reliable sources doesn't find anyone else ever calling the character sexist.  As for the part about saying her character was "limited" at first appearance, is there a second reference anywhere that complains about this, or it just one rant somewhere? [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 10:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

*I have seen one sentence about Cattie-Brie in [http://fantasyliterature.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/99772099/looting%20the%20dungeon%20-%20canavan.pdf this thesis], which does not directly confirm but maybe complement her supposedly "limited" presentation. One way we could rephrase (if it is not too long, and surely could be improved somehow):

::Rob Bricken argued that her characterization in [[The Icewind Dale Trilogy]] is limited,<ref name=":7">{{Cite web|last=Bricken|first=Rob|date=June 26, 2020|title=Dungeons & Dragons & Novels: Revisiting The Crystal Shard|url=https://io9.gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-novels-revisiting-the-crystal-sha-1844083723|access-date=2020-12-28|website=io9|language=en-us}}</ref> while Aidan-Paul Canavan maintained that she becomes a 'heroe' only in later novels.<ref>{{cite thesis|last=Canavan|first=Aidan-Paul|date=April 2011|title=Looting the Dungeon: The Quest for the Genre Fantasy Mega-Text|url=http://fantasyliterature.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/99772099/looting%20the%20dungeon%20-%20canavan.pdf|pages=134-135|degree=|publisher=University of Liverpool}}</ref>
===References===
{{reflist}}

What does anyone think? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 11:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

== Merge [[Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun]] article ==
I've been looking around for reliable sources for the character for a long time now, with Google Searches turning up very little usable material: secondary sources mostly talk about his ''Demon Stone'' appearance in passing, and he is barely covered even in primary sources. It doesn't help that he's been killed off in-universe (with no plans of bringing him back that we know of), and doesn't look like he'll be playing a role in any upcoming D&D media adaptations, which often means renewed coverage (Bruenor and Catti-brie being prime candidates of such a possibility to split and spin-off following ''Dark Alliance's'' release if the coverage appears). So, per [[WP:ATD]] and [[WP:PRESERVE]], I propose that the character's article be merged into this article's characters section, instead of it being subject to an inevitable AfD. [[User:Haleth|Haleth]] ([[User talk:Haleth|talk]]) 08:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
:As things are now, I support a merge. There are secondary sources and content to preserve, and while I would be happy to see the article stay, I am not sure it would survive an AfD discussion. I trust [[User:Haleth|Haleth]]'s search, but I am still wondering: Are there no reviews of the books where the character features around? Maybe they exist only in print and then are very hard to find...
:I wonder, if the good work done in the character section is continued, if there will be a point that makes recreation of the [[List of Forgotten Realms characters]] possible. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 08:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
::I'm certainly hoping that the list can be recreated at some point, and the more good sources we can find the better! [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 13:50, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

:Sounds good to me. One less dramu for the AfD. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 03:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

== GOCE copyedit request ==

Heyo {{U|Sariel Xilo}}, some questions as usual:

* <s>{{tq|TSR felt that the Forgotten Realms would be a more open-ended setting than the epic Dragonlance setting [...]}} What's meant by ''epic'' here? Is it supposed to be read in the colloquial sense as "awesome", or that ''Dragonlance'' is an epic?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:{{Semi-done|Done by Daranios, tweaked by me}}. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>Italicisation: Has there been any discussion as to when to italicise ''Forgotten Realms'' (as in the title) and when not to? I assumed that the name was italicised when it is being referred to as intellectual property, and not italicised when it is being referred to as the setting (in-universe, if you will).</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I don't think there's been an discussion. Forgotten Realms isn't an in-universe title as far as I know. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. I'll get rid of the italics (including the title) in that case. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|'''''Forgotten Realms''''' is a [[campaign setting]] for the ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'' (''D&D'') [[fantasy]] [[role-playing game]].}} Formatting preserved. To satisfy [[MOS:SEAOFBLUE]], could "fantasy" be delinked or combined with "role-playing game"? The redirect [[Fantasy role playing]] → [[Role playing game]] exists.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: That seems to makes sense to me. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|before creating a group known as the Knights of Myth Drannor in Shadowdale.}} What's Shadowdale? A city? Town? Kingdom?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: Per the Fandom Wikia, it's a "farming community" which includes a town named Shadowdale and the larger surrounding region. I'm not the most familiar with Forgotten Realms lore but I can try to track down an older sourcebook to verify. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I'd have said a small (14,000 inhabitants by one description) self-governed nation covering a valley with the same name. (And a farming community, and the name of the "capital" town.) [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{Done}}. I'll just say "region" in that case. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|[...] and chose the Realms as a ready-made campaign setting upon deciding to publish AD&D 2nd edition.}} I tentatively decapitalised ''edition'' through the entire article, but let me know if it should stay capitalised.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: Like the italics above, I don't think there's any consistency when edition is capitalized. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. As far as I can tell the book titles themselves don't state which edition they're for (looking at the PHB for 5e as an example), so I'll keep them decapitalised. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|He noted that TSR altered his original conception of the Realms being a place that we could travel to from our world [...]}} I'm thinking this should be rephrased so that [[MOS:WE]] can be avoided. Maybe {{xt|He noted that TSR altered his original conception of the Realms being a place that could be accessed from Earth}}?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: Sounds good to me. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. Replaced. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|"[c]oncerns over possible lawsuits (kids getting hurt while trying to 'find a gate') led TSR to de-emphasize this meaning."}} Just asking for confirmation here that this is a complete, full sentence.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I don't have access to the source (Dragon #244) to verify but maybe {{U|BOZ}} does? [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::The full sentence from the magazine said: "In Greenwood’s original conception, Earth’s fantastic legends derive from a fantasy world that we‘ve now lost the way to-hence, the Forgotten Realms. “Concerns over possible lawsuits (kids getting hurt while trying to ‘find a gate’) led TSR to de-emphasize this meaning,” he says." [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 23:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{Done}}. Keeping as is. Many thanks, {{U|BOZ}}. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>Links to modules: How should link text to the module pages be rendered? Their article titles don't include the product code (which implies that they're not part of the actual product titles), and I'm not seeing how mentioning the product codes in this article gives readers any particular knowledge.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: Products codes went out of style & the publisher eventually stopped using them. I typically don't include them but I don't think that something the D&D project has formalized as an official style. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. Removing product codes; they're still present in their own articles, but I think mentioning them here is trivial at best. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|The compilation module ''Desert of Desolation'' [...]}} Emphasis in original. Any reason why this module doesn't have a code number before it?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
::{{Not done|Moot}}. Removing all product codes from titles anyway. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq2|The boxed set ''[[Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms]]'' was released in 1988, giving details of the lands of [[Kara-Tur]] which designed for use with the 1986 book ''[[Oriental Adventures#Advanced Dungeons & Dragons|Oriental Adventures]]'', and were now officially placed in the Forgotten Realms world.}} This paragraph needs to be rewritten; {{tq|were}} implies that at least two things became canon. Are they the boxed set and the 1986 book?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: The fictional region of Kara-Tur was introduced in the Oriental Adventures (1985) sourcebook. Later, the region was expanded on & added to the Forgotten Realms setting as new location within the world via the 1988 boxed set. The boxed set was designed to be used with the original sourcebook. The boxed set was what made it cannon to the Forgotten Realms. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. Reworded paragraph to state as such. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|To transition the Forgotten Realms from first edition AD&D rules to second edition AD&D rules [...]}} With the exception of some updates to lore, aren't editions basically rulesets? If yes, there's no need to mention ''rules''.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I think that makes sense. Sometimes there are in-universe lore explanations for the mechanical changes between editions (like how magic works). [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. I substituted an instance of ''AD&D'' with "ruleset", so that should make it apparent what it is. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|[...] and spread into a three-adventure "Avatar" series [...]}} Any reason why Avatar isn't being italicised? —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)</s>
:: It should probably be italicized. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|TSR adjusted the timeline of the Forgotten Realms by advancing the calendar one year forward to 1358 DR and this period was known as the Time of Troubles.}} When was the Time of Troubles? 1358 DR onwards or the interval between 1357–1358 DR?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
::Per the Fandom Wikia, it was just the one year. If anyone has access to [[The Grand History of the Realms]], that would probably be the best primary source for verification. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I can confirm this based on the ''[[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting]]'' 3rd edition, p. 271. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{Done}}. Reworded to make it clear the term applies to the time gap. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|''This'' updated the Forgotten Realms to the newest rules system [...]}} Emphasis added. What is {{tq|this}} referring to? The first cycle of annual book publishing?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I assume it is referring to the sentence before it which highlights a campaign book, a player's guide, and an adventure. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}. Replaced {{!xt|This}} with {{xt|These books}}. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|''De Launay'' characterized Jarlaxle as an independent character [...]}} Emphasis added. Who's De Launay? This is the first time they're mentioned.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I'm going to be ping {{U|Daranios}} on this one because I think they did the Jarlaxle merge after the AfD. It might have been text copied over from the deleted article. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::Caroline de Launay wrote an Anglistics PhD thesis which has characterization of Jarlaxle. I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Forgotten_Realms&type=revision&diff=1007281214&oldid=1007179296 added] her short description, which was missed by the editor performing the merge of [[Jarlaxle]] here. I am not completely sure if this is the best description, more about her can be found at the first hit of this [https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Caroline+de+launay Google search]. BTW, thanks for the detailed work on where to improve! [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 08:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
:::: {{Semi-done|Done by Daranios}}. You're very welcome! {{Smiley}} —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq2|The setting also gave TSR a new way to market its Battlesystem rules, which it had supported with the Bloodstone adventure sequence that began with H1: Bloodstone Pass (1985), and the last two books of this series, H3: The Bloodstone Wars (1987) and H4: The Throne of Bloodstone (1988), were explicitly placed in the Forgotten Realms.}} Formatting removed. I'm not 100% sure what {{tq|were explicitly placed}} is acting on. If it's just the last two books of {{tq|this series}}, the sentence should be broken up some more.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
::Yes, the sentence probably should be broken up. The first two modules were published before the Forgotten Realms as a setting. The fourth one already has the Forgotten Realms logo on the cover. The introduction to the third one explains: "We should also point out that the BLOODSTONE PASS saga takes place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Fantasy Game Setting, new from TSR, Inc. A certain amount of retrofitting was needed to integrate this series into our new official game world". (And the countries of Damara and Vaasa, setting of all four modules, were incorporated into the Forgotten Realms.) [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{Done}}. I separated the sentence into two. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 17:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|[...] a story of the gods being cast down was planned from the ''top-down management'' [...]}} Emphasis added. What is meant by "top-down management"? A chief officer planned the story and got their subordinates to expand on it?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:: Going to ping {{U|BOZ}} again because I know they have this book series & I don't have access to this source. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::The actual quote from the book says of the Avatar series that "Unlike the “underground conspiracy” of Dragonlance, this event was planned from the top-down by management." If you have questions about the meaning of what is actually written in "Designers & Dragons", you can always ask [[User:ShannonA]] directly. :) [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 23:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::::<s>{{Partly done}}. I've added "by" in to make it more natural, though I think it could stand to be a little less colloquial. I'll leave a ping for {{U|ShannonA}} here, but otherwise I'll consider this to be resolved once I'm wrapping up.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
::::{{Done}}. There's not much else I can do here, so I'll consider this resolved. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 17:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|'''This''' was followed by FR2 ''[[Moonshae]]'' in 1987 [...]}} Strong emphasis added. Just confirming that {{tq|this}} is referring to ''Waterdeep and the North''.</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
::Correct. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{Done}}. Removed some missed product codes while I was at it. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 17:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|Starting in 1979, Greenwood published a series of articles that detailed the setting [...]}} {{Grey|Already edited, not really a copyedit issue. Any source for when Greenwood stopped publishing for the magazine?}}</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:*Did he ever stop? I just had a look, and found the last article of Greenwood's column "Eye on the Realms" is right in the last [[Dragon (magazine)|''Dragon'' magazine]] issue no. [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon_magazine_430 430] (2013). I have seen one article by him in the following ''[[Dragon+]]'' magazine, as well as several reprints of old ones there. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
::{{Not done}}. Again, not a copyedit issue, but might be something to include. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 17:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
::Alrighty, good to know, Daranios. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 20:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
* <s>{{tq|[...] in The Crystal Shard, Wulfgar's combat prowess ''is to an extent that'' along with Drizzt and his magic panther Guenhwyvar [...]}} Emphasis added. What is meant by the italicised part? His prowess is equal to Drizzt and Guenhwyvar combined?</s> —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:*I think this only means that the combat prowess of Wulfgar, Drizzt and Guenwyvar together was so great that... The original source says "Drizzt and Wulfgar are so preternaturally badass they beat 25 giants by themselves (well, with help from Drizzt’s magic panther Guenhwyvar..." [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 20:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{Done}}. I used "immense", but perhaps another qualifier would work better to describe Wulfgar's combat prowess. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 20:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to your responses. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 19:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
:{{U|Sariel Xilo}}, I've looked over the article and have made a few more tweaks. I'll consider the request to be complete soon if I don't hear from you. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
::{{U|Tenryuu}} Thanks for taking the time to do the review. Apologies for the delayed response; I've been offline while ill. I'm going to tag a few other editors who might have more insight and I'll take a look at the above. Pinging: {{reply to|BOZ|Daranios|Piotrus|Woodroar|Dream Focus|V2Blast}} [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 21:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::I don't really have any more suggestions than those I've made in previous Talk sections. I think this article needs more than GOCE, I'm afraid. I'm talking a rewrite from the ground up based on reliable secondary sources, not primary books, storefronts, interviews, listicles, etc. We also need to summarize sources in our own encyclopedic writing rather than rely on pull quotes that verge on COPYVIO and NPOV violations. But that's my $0.02. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 21:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::Feel better soon! [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 23:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|Sariel Xilo}}, I echo what others said here (get better soon too :D). Also see my comment below. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 01:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

::: Thanks for your responses, everyone (hopefully you're feeling much better {{U|Sariel Xilo}}). I'll make changes to what I've got for now. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 21:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

::: {{U|Sariel Xilo}}, if there's nothing else, I'll consider the request to be complete. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 01:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:::: Considering everything to be done on my end. Best of luck with nominations! —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu&nbsp;🐲</span>]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]]&nbsp;) 18:55, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

== [[Minsc]] not mentioned yet, same for [[Erevis Cale]] at AfD ==

Minsc is possibly notable although I haven't looked at the reception section there in much detail. Anyway, the odds are he can be mentioned h ere. Erevis Cale, I am not so sure, and he is getting AfD right now. Nothing to rescue there, however (no reception or analysis). All other entries in the [[:Category:Forgotten Realms characters]] are notable or redirect here anyway. Good job expanding the list here with ''notable'' entries grounded in real world significande, folks! Maybe this article can be GAed (the history section needs beefing up with more refs, however). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 03:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:Do we want to go into video game-only characters here though? [[Special:Contributions/98.32.192.121|98.32.192.121]] ([[User talk:98.32.192.121|talk]]) 06:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
::Minsc and company also appear in the [[Dungeons and Dragons (comics)|'' Dungeons and Dragons'' comics]] which, to my understanding, parallel several of the major 5th edition adventures. He also [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Minsc seems to be at least mentioned] in ''[[Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus]]'' and ''[https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Murder_in_Baldur%27s_Gate Murder in Baldur's Gate]'', establishing his existence in the table-top RPG, if we care of such things. So I'd say in total with regard to Minsc specifically, yes, let's include him. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 08:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
== "Anauroch" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Anauroch]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 22#Anauroch]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Oiyarbepsy|Oiyarbepsy]] ([[User talk:Oiyarbepsy|talk]]) 01:08, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

== Netheril ==

Netheril redirects here, but it's not mentioned in the article anywhere.  [[Special:Contributions/139.138.6.121|139.138.6.121]] ([[User talk:139.138.6.121|talk]]) 08:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you for the tip! I have changed the redirect to ''[[Netheril: Empire of Magic]]'' for the time being. There, Netheril is briefly discussed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:48, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
::The redirect has been shifted further to [[Faerûn]]. I am not so sure this is the better option, as the mention of Netheril there is ''currently'' very short, but it's one viable option. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:33, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
== "Athrogate" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Athrogate]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 29#Athrogate]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 15:34, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

== Merge from [[Abeir-Toril]] ==
{{Archive top 
|result =  This discussion appears to have gone stale after running for 3 months. I've gone ahead and closed it on the request of Daranios, who is clearly able and willing to improve the article, so the status quo should remain until someone else decides to relitigate the matter. [[User:Haleth|Haleth]] ([[User talk:Haleth|talk]]) 12:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
|status = No consensus }}
I really should've challenged the AfD few years ago - now that I look at it, there was not a single keep vote, just a split between deletes and keep/merge and keep/redirect. Only a single user provided some keep rationale ([[User:Daranios]]). The odds are this would've been deleted or force merged after an overtun... but shrug. This was kept, without even a merge discussion started. It hasn't improved, and still is a pure plot summary with no shred of evidence that the topic meets [[WP:GNG]]. Time to remedy this one way or another. Perhaps [[User:BOZ]] could help merge some parts to [[Forgotten Realms ]] or suggest a different redirect target. Or maybe (best outcome?) Daranios would like to add a reception/significance section based on the sources they claimed existed back then? But in the current form, if this is not improved to address the problem of not meeting [[WP:GNG]], IMHO, this cannot stay. Also ping other AfD participants: [[User:Rorshacma ]], [[User:Necrothesp ]], [[User:TTN]], [[User:SportingFlyer]], [[User:Sariel Xilo]]. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:36, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

:There are a number of non-primary sources in the "Publishing history" section, which is also not written using in-universe style. If it is determined that this topic does not and cannot meet the GNG, then part of that text could be merged here as suggested. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 10:41, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
::For the record, I see that Daranios did go ahead and start a reception section after this discussion was opened[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abeir-Toril&diff=prev&oldid=1087259349] so I would like to see if anything else can be done to improve the article before recommending a support or oppose to a merge. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 16:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
:::For a start, [http://fantasyliterature.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/99772099/looting%20the%20dungeon%20-%20canavan.pdf this PhD thesis] has about a page (non-continous) talking about (Abeir-)Toril, which should be used as is appropriate. I am short on time, hopefully I can comment more later. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 09:50, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
::::*'''Oppose''' a merge per the reasoning of Daranios. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 11:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
:*'''Support''' - I still hold to my argument in the last AFD. This really just the formal name of the location that the [[Forgotten Realms]] campaign setting takes place on and around (even the one source being used in the Reception section describes it as such), and both articles cover most of the same topics and material. So, there is really no need or justification for a split here.  I do agree with [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] above that any reliably sourced content regarding its publication history that is not already present in the main Forgotten Realms article should be merged over. [[User:Rorshacma|Rorshacma]] ([[User talk:Rorshacma|talk]]) 14:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
:*'''Support''' (multiple merge targets) - If we decide to merge, I think the majority of the Fictional continents section should be moved to the source/setting book articles the material is from instead of to the FR Geography section (ie. Kara-Tur to [[Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms]], Maztica to [[Maztica Campaign Set]], etc). Essentially, the FR Geography section would have a sentence or two about each continent and direct readers to the main setting book articles. I know during the 2020 AfD, Daranios said sources existed but I struggled to find them at the time of the AfD. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 16:40, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
:*'''Oppose''' for now. I think this meets [[WP:GNG]] and should stay an article on that grounds. To find more secondary sources means a lot of work, as not only Abeir-Toril, and its usual synonym, Toril, but all the continents and locations which do not have there own article are in the scope of the topic. A lot of articles could use attention, and my time here gets more limited, so I plan to do some work, but can't promise much. Maybe {{u|Piotrus}} and others would like to help improve, e.g. with the secondary source I've already provided, and then we can have a look? Already, as {{u|BOZ}} has pointed out, we had the publication history section, and the whole Kara-Tur section is almost no plot-summary, and is mostly based on secondary source, so "still is a pure plot summary with no shred of evidence that the topic meets [[WP:GNG]]" is not accurate. So among other things the whole Kara-Tur section should be preserved in a merge, which would in my view already be too much for the [[Forgotten Realms]] article. In this regard, {{u|Sariel Xilo}}'s suggestion of multiple merge target would be a solution. I prefer keeping this article for collective improvement, though. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 07:33, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
:*:@[[User:Daranios|Daranios]] In general, the "too big for merge" argument misses the point that much of the content, here or there, is unreferenced plot summary fancruft. Regarding sources, the source for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abeir-Toril&type=revision&diff=1087259349&oldid=1087258647&diffmode=source this] i.e. [https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_olink/r/1501/10?clear=10&p10_accession_num=bgsu1573729920432102 this], mentions Toril rather briefly, in four sentences.  The other thesis ([http://fantasyliterature.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/99772099/looting%20the%20dungeon%20-%20canavan.pdf]) has about as much content. Each does contain a sentence or two of analysis, but SIGCOV is very borderline. Overall, those are good sources, but if we prune fancruft to what we have referenced, there'll be very little left. Frankly, the analysis in both works boils down to "this setting is extensive and very well developed". I am afraid that is not enough to pass [[WP:GNG]]. As such, unless better sources are found, I still believe merge is the best outcome, as any loss is limited to unreferenced fancrufty plot summary. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 08:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
::::{{re|Piotrus}} My "too big for merge" argument currently refers mainly to the [[Abeir-Toril#Kara-Tur|Kara-Tur section]]. Please check it out. If most of it were to be merged to [[Forgotten Realms]], as I think it should in case of a merge there, it in my view would feel to big for that article's structure. Otherwise, it would be nice if someone would help out with working in the relevant content of [[http://fantasyliterature.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/99772099/looting%20the%20dungeon%20-%20canavan.pdf said thesis]. I plan to look for other sources. I expect many small rather than few big contributions, but we'd see if there was enough time. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 10:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
::::::{{re|Piotrus}} You wouldn't perhaps be able to access [https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=788176 this paper]? The abstract does not look too promising, but it's one of the Google Scholar hits... [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 11:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Daranios|Daranios]] I have to go AFK and will check a bit later but don't we have access to CEEOL through the [[Wikipedia Library]]? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 11:08, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
:::*:@[[User:Daranios|Daranios]] It's a good section, but per [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kara-Tur]], seems mostly cobbled from mentions in passing. Why not merge it to [[Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms]]? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:52, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
::::*I was always leery about adding too much content from the setting into the article about the boxed set, and remain so now. Kara-Tur as a fictional setting appeared a few years before the boxed set and continued to be detailed long after the boxed set, so at most only a brief overview of the setting should be presented in the article about the boxed set in my opinion, and anything more is [[WP:UNDUE]] - I think it has too much about the setting already. [[User:BOZ|BOZ]] ([[User talk:BOZ|talk]]) 12:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
:::::*Indeed, and also some of the commentary was made on the material before the boxed set came out. Similarly, Abeir-Toril goes beyond the Forgotten Realms as it also hosts the Al-Qadim setting. Don't get me wrong, I think merges to those targets would be okay, as the topics are closely related. But they are not perfect fit, whereas with Abeir-Toril as a topic there is not such a problem. That's why I think merges are a second-best solution to keeping everything here.
::::::As for "seems mostly cobbled from mentions in passing": a) The usual, I am convinced that articles can be built up of different short treatments as long as those are not trivial. [[WP:N]] is not an end in itself, as no rule should be. We should look at ''why'' the rule has been put up. And that's "[[WP:WHYN|so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph or a definition of that topic]]". b) At least the [https://archive.org/details/space-gamer_201601/Space_Gamer_81/page/n31/mode/2up?q=kara-Tur ''Space Gamer'' article] contains, depending on what you count, one or several pharagraphs on the continent of Kara-Tur. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 06:25, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
*I am going with '''oppose''' as well. In my opinion, Daranios has made a convincing argument that a worthwhile article can be constructed from existing secondary sources for Abeir-Toril. [[User:Haleth|Haleth]] ([[User talk:Haleth|talk]]) 17:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
*Allright, I have done what I wanted to do on the article for the time being. I have not searched all the individual locations in the article for both references and reception, but we have a not-so-small reception and commentary section now, as well as some commentary to individual continents. I still think that's enough for a stand-alone article. So can we close the discussion, or are there objections? [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 10:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Unmentioned redirects ==

The following redirects are not mentioned in this article. This was generated by a the same script as [[Talk:List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters#Incoming redirects]], so may have some false positives, but still deserves looking at:
{{cot|Giant list}}
#{{strikethrough|[[Silver Marches]]}} [[Faerûn#Northern regions]]
#[[Icingdeath]]
#[[Taulmaril]]
#[[Cyric]]
#[[Khelben Arunsun]]
#[[Ulutiu]]
#[[Avatar Crisis]]
#[[Avatar crisis]]
#{{strikethrough|[[House Baenre]]}} [[Menzoberranzan#Fictional description]]
#[[Friendly Arm Inn]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Zaknafein]]}} [[Drizzt Do'Urden#Publication history]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Zaknafein Do'Urden]]}} [[Drizzt Do'Urden#Publication history]]
#[[Selvetarm]]
#[[Evermeet]]
#[[Velsharoon]]
#[[Lord Ao]]
#[[Selûne]]
#[[Finder Wyvernspur]]
#[[Jorus Azuremantle]]
#[[Sernius Alathar]]
#[[The Simbul]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Spine of the World (Forgotten Realms)]]}} [[Faerûn#Northern regions]]
#[[Ghaunadaur]]
#[[List of minor Silver Marches characters]]
#[[Methrammar Aerasumé]]
#[[Taern Hornblade]]
#[[Calimshan]]
#[[Narfell]]
#[[The Blushing Mermaid]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Ten Towns]]}} [[Faerûn#Northern regions]]
#[[Cadderly Bonaduce]]
#[[The Helm and Cloak]]
#[[Balduron]]
#[[Danica Maupoissant]]
#[[Mirabar]]
#[[Winterkeep]]
#[[Murghôm]]
#[[Luiren]]
#[[Aglarond (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Rashemen]]
#[[Chessenta]]
#[[Impiltur]]
#[[Vaasa (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Ashanath]]
#[[Altumbel]]
#[[Mulhorand]]
#[[Damara (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Cormyr]]
#[[Turmish]]
#[[Tethyr]]
#[[Pelvuria]]
#[[Halruaa]]
#[[Shaar]]
#[[Dambrath]]
#[[Durpar]]
#[[Unther]]
#[[Semphar]]
#[[Thesk]]
#[[Estagund]]
#[[Nimbral]]
#[[Raumathar]]
#[[Jhaamdath]]
#[[Ulgarth]]
#[[Var the Golden]]
#[[Imaskar]]
#[[Empire of Shadows]]
#[[Voonlar]]
#[[Great Rift (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Zhentil Keep]]
#[[Castle Darkhold]]
#[[Evereska]]
#[[Lantan (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Melvaunt]]
#[[Creator Races]]
#[[Scornubel]]
#[[Hlondeth]]
#[[Western Heartlands]]
#[[Moonsea]]
#[[Mulmaster]]
#[[Rethild]]
#[[Hlaungadath]]
#[[Cormanthyr]]
#[[Shining Plains]]
#[[Prespur]]
#[[Telflamm]]
#[[Deep Shanatar]]
#[[Ammarindar]]
#[[High Ice]]
#[[Reghed (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Erlkazar]]
#[[Sossal]]
#[[Guge (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Tashalar]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Dragon Coast]]}} [[Faerûn#Middle lands]]
#[[Athalantar]]
#[[Sarrukh]]
#[[Coramshan]]
#[[Eaerlann]]
#[[Ilythiir]]
#[[Miyeritar]]
#[[Shantel Othreier]]
#[[Waukeen's Promenade]]
#[[Spellhold]]
#[[Northkeep]]
#[[Eastern Shaar]]
#[[Daggerford]]
#[[High Moor]]
#[[Edificant Library]]
#[[Secomber]]
#[[Qilué Veladorn]]
#[[Great Dale]]
#[[Tharsult]]
#[[Flaming Fist]]
#[[Tablets of Fate]]
#[[Spellfire (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Forgotten Realms organizations]]
#[[Cormanthor]]
#[[Alassra Silverhand]]
#[[Simbul]]
#[[Red Knight (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Lost Empires of Faerûn]]
#[[Vilhon Reach]]
#[[Cold Lands]]
#[[Old Kingdoms (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Island Kingdoms of Faerûn]]
#[[Unapproachable East]]
#[[Shining South]]
#[[Khelben Blackstaff]]
#[[Jarlaxle Baenre]]
#[[Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone characters]]
#[[High Forest (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Garagos]]
#[[The Zhentarim]]
#[[Sess'Innek]]
#[[Selgaunt]]
#[[List of Forgotten Realms characters]]
#[[Qilué]]
#[[Sammaster]]
#[[Cult of Dragon]]
#[[Cadderly]]
#[[Minor characters of the Silver Marches]]
#[[Jergal]]
#[[Mythal]]
#[[Belwar Dissengulp]]
#[[Lurue]]
#[[Sharess]]
#[[Shiallia]]
#[[Shaundakul]]
#[[Uthgar]]
#[[Siamorphe]]
#[[Gwaeron Windstrom]]
#[[Valkur]]
#[[Nobanion]]
#[[Jaezred Chaulssin]]
#[[The Moonstars]]
#[[Suldanessellar]]
#[[Briza Do'Urden]]
#[[Briza (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Vierna]]
#[[Shandril Shessair]]
#[[Rizzen]]
#[[Vierna Do'Urden]]
#[[Dinin Do'Urden]]
#[[Dinin Do'urden]]
#[[Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun]]
#[[House Do'Urden]]
#[[House Do'urden]]
#[[Daermon Na'Shezbaeron]]
#[[House Daermon Na'Shezbaeron]]
#[[Malice Do'Urden]]
#[[Matron Malice]]
#[[Rizzen Do'Urden]]
#[[Maya Do'Urden]]
#[[Nalfein Do'Urden]]
#[[Narnra Shalace]]
#[[Narnra]]
#[[Thar (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Sespech]]
#[[Veldorn]]
#[[Nelanther Isles]]
#[[Reth]]
#[[Forgotten Realins]]
#[[Akabar Bel Akash]]
#[[Melvos]]
#[[Melvos Hammerstars]]
#[[Aballister Bonaduce]]
#[[Nesmé]]
#[[Calimport]]
#[[Moander]]
#[[Ruins of Chasolné]]
#[[Daermon N'a'shezbaernon]]
#[[House Daermon N'a'shezbaernon]]
#[[Ostoria]]
#[[List of Forgotten Realms Characters]]
#[[Ingeloakastimizilian]]
#[[The Iron Throne (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Innovindel]]
#[[Tarathiel]]
#[[Drasek Riven]]
#[[Sea of Swords (sea)]]
#[[Charon's Claw]]
#[[Berg'inyon Baenre]]
#[[Yvonnel Baenre]]
#[[Northmen (Dungeons & Dragons)]]
#[[Kor (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Tchazzar]]
#[[Selan (Dungeons & Dragons)]]
#[[Ubtao]]
#[[Kaanyr vhok]]
#[[Moonstar (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Auppenser]]
#[[Shi'nayne Do'Urden]]
#[[Dantrag Baenre]]
#[[List of characters in R. A. Salvatore's Forgotten Realms Series]]
#[[Jewelled Dagger]]
#[[Qilue Veladorn]]
#[[Eresseae Qilué Silverhand]]
#[[Qilue]]
#[[Qilué Silverhand]]
#[[Alassra Shentrantra Silverhand]]
#[[Red Wizard of Thay]]
#[[Danilo Thann]]
#[[Regis Rumblebelly]]
#[[Dove Falconhand]]
#[[Lady Alustriel]]
#[[Karsus]]
#[[Halaster Blackcloak]]
#[[Halaster]]
#{{strikethrough|[[City of Baldur's Gate]]}} [[Faerûn#Middle lands]]
#[[Clacker (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Qilue Silverhand]]
#[[Methrammar Aerasume]]
#[[Eresseae Qilue Silverhand]]
#[[Alustriel of Silverymoon]]
#[[Ellifain]]
#[[The Vast]]
#[[Sea of Moving Ice]]
#[[Border Kingdoms]]
#[[Sembia]]
#[[Chondalwood]]
#[[Ruathym]]
#[[Tortured Land]]
#[[Lake of Steam]]
#[[Dragonbait]]
#[[Ched Nasad]]
#[[Angharradh]]
#[[Olive Ruskettle]]
#[[Kymil Nimesin]]
#[[Laeral Silverhand]]
#[[Zhengyi (Character)]]
#[[Syluné]]
#[[Storm Silverhand]]
#[[Arumn Gardpeck]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Shimmergloom]]}} [[Streams of Silver#Plot summary]]
#[[Dorn Graybrook]]
#[[Innovindil]]
#[[Kimmuriel Oblodra]]
#[[Sunrise and Sunset]]
#[[Thibbledorf Pwent]]
#[[Arilyn Moonblade]]
#[[Galaeron Nihmedu]]
#[[Kierkan Rufo]]
#[[Taegan Nightwind]]
#[[Vangerdahast]]
#[[Ellifain Tuuserail]]
#[[Gareth Dragonsbane]]
#[[Harkle Harpell]]
#[[Araevin Teshurr]]
#[[Captain Deudermont]]
#[[Manshoon]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Ityak-Ortheel]]}} [[List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters#TSR9563 – Powers and Pantheons (1997)]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Dendar the Night Serpent]]}} [[List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters#TSR9563 – Powers and Pantheons (1997)]]
#{{strikethrough|[[Kezef the Chaos Hound]]}} [[List of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition monsters#TSR9563 – Powers and Pantheons (1997)]]
#[[Elk Tribe]]
#[[Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder]]
#[[Jak Fleet]]
#[[The Kraken (D&D)]]
#[[The Forgotten Realms Deluxe Edition]]
#[[Heafstaag]]
#[[Montolio Debrouchee]]
#[[Nasher Alagondar]]
#[[Alaundo]]
#[[Blingdenstone]]
#[[Khazid'hea]]
#[[Moonblade]]
#[[Fox-at-Twilight]]
#[[Fox-at-twilight]]
#[[Citadel Felbarr]]
#[[Alicia Kendrick]]
#[[Adon (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Glister (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Threskel]]
#[[Dragonjaw Mountains]]
#[[Raurin]]
#[[Aryvandaar]]
#[[Barrabus the Grey]]
#[[Barrabus the Gray]]
#[[Lord Nasher]]
#[[Thann family]]
#[[Ragarra]]
#[[Arganth Snarrl]]
#[[Kaanyr Vhok]]
#[[The Kraken (Dungeons & Dragons)]]
#[[Sharindlar]]
#[[Randal Morn]]
#<s>[[Hajama (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Hakiyah]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Haku (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Jauhar (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Jisan]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Najm (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Zann (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Bala (Forgotten Realms)]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#<s>[[Vataqatal]]</s> [[Al-Qadim#Important concepts]]
#[[Vartha Do'Urden]]
#[[Elminster's Ecologies]]
#[[Marco Volo: Departure]]
#[[Marco Volo: Journey]]
#[[Marco Volo: Arrival]]
#[[The Sword of the Dales]]
#[[The Secret of Spiderhaunt]]
#[[Candle keep]]
#[[Asper (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[The Kraken (Dungeons and Dragons)]]
#[[History of List of Forgotten Realms characters]]
#[[Yharaskrik]]
#[[Chondath]]
#[[Shadow Thieves]]
#[[Moonstars]]
#[[The Kraken (Forgotten Realms)]]
#[[Cowled Wizards]]
#[[LeShay (Dungeons & Dragons)]]
#[[Ibrandul]]
#[[Iyachtu Xvim]]
#[[Eshowdow]]
#[[Gargauth]]
#[[Amaunator]]
#<s>[[List of Forgotten Realms deities]]</s> [[List of Dungeons & Dragons deities#Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition]]
{{cob}}

: I've updated a handful redirects. It looks like most of these are locations so probably should go to [[Faerûn]] or [[Abeir-Toril]]. Many of the characters could probably be redirected to their publication source (such as various Drizzt characters going to those novels). I'm not super familiar with the FR lore minutiae so this isn't a project I'm going to take on. [[User:Sariel Xilo|Sariel Xilo]] ([[User talk:Sariel Xilo|talk]]) 00:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

===Unmentioned redirects: 2025 list===
{{cot}}
# [[Aballister Bonaduce]] - Changed to ''[[The Cleric Quintet]]'', where he appears, although only by first name. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:34, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Adon (Forgotten Realms)]] - Changed to ''[[Avatar Series]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:34, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Aglarond (Forgotten Realms)]] - Changed to [[Faerûn]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:34, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Akabar Bel Akash]] - Changed to ''[[Azure Bonds]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:34, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Alassra Shentrantra Silverhand]] - Aka [[the Simbul]], changed to [[Mystra (Forgotten Realms)]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:05, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Alassra Silverhand]] - Aka [[the Simbul]], changed to [[Mystra (Forgotten Realms)]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:05, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
# [[Alaundo]] - Changed to ''[[Baldur's Gate (video game)]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:40, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Alicia Kendrick]] - Changed to ''[[Prophet of Moonshae]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:40, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Altumbel]] - Changed to [[Faerûn]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:40, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Alustriel of Silverymoon]] - Changed to ''[[The Orc King]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:03, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Ammarindar]]
# [[Araevin Teshurr]] - Changed to ''[[Forsaken House (novel)]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 12:03, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Arganth Snarrl]] - Changed to ''[[The Lone Drow]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:29, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Arilyn Moonblade]] - Changed to [[Songs & Swords]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:29, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Arumn Gardpeck]]
# [[Athalantar]] - Changed to [[Elminster]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 14:29, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Avatar Crisis]] - Alternative name of [[Time of Troubles (Forgotten Realms)]], which redirects here. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Avatar crisis]] - Alternative name of [[Time of Troubles (Forgotten Realms)]], which redirects here. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Barrabus the Gray]] - Changed to ''[[Gauntlgrym]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:01, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Barrabus the Grey]] - Changed to ''[[Gauntlgrym]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:01, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Belwar Dissengulp]] - Changed to ''[[The Dark Elf Trilogy]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:56, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Berg'inyon Baenre]] - Changed to ''[[Servant of the Shard]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:56, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Blingdenstone]] - Changed to ''[[Starless Night]]''. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:56, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Border Kingdoms]] - Changed to [[Faerûn]]. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 17:56, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Briza (Forgotten Realms)]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Briza Do'Urden]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Cadderly]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Calimport]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Candle keep]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Captain Deudermont]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:13, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Castle Darkhold]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Charon's Claw]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Ched Nasad]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 15:17, 12 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Chondalwood]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:22, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Citadel Felbarr]] - Changed. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 13:22, 13 June 2025 (UTC)
# [[Clacker (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Cold Lands]]
# [[Cormanthor]]
# [[Cormanthyr]]
# [[Creator Races]]
# [[Cult of Dragon]]
# [[Daermon N'a'shezbaernon]]
# [[Daermon Na'Shezbaeron]]
# [[Damara (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Dambrath]]
# [[Danilo Thann]]
# [[Dantrag Baenre]]
# [[Deep Shanatar]]
# [[Dinin Do'Urden]]
# [[Dinin Do'urden]]
# [[Dorn Graybrook]]
# [[Dove Falconhand]]
# [[Dragonbait]]
# [[Dragonjaw Mountains]]
# [[Durpar]]
# [[Eastern Shaar]]
# [[Edificant Library]]
# [[Elk Tribe]]
# [[Ellifain]]
# [[Ellifain Tuuserail]]
# [[Elminster's Ecologies]]
# [[Empire of Shadows]]
# [[Eresseae Qilue Silverhand]]
# [[Eresseae Qilué Silverhand]]
# [[Erlkazar]]
# [[Estagund]]
# [[Evereska]]
# [[Finder Wyvernspur]]
# [[Flaming Fist]]
# [[Forgotten Realins]]
# [[Forgotten Realms organizations]]
# [[Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone characters]]
# [[Fox-at-Twilight]]
# [[Fox-at-twilight]]
# [[Galaeron Nihmedu]]
# [[Gareth Dragonsbane]]
# [[Glister (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Great Dale]]
# [[Great Rift (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Guge (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Halaster]]
# [[Halaster Blackcloak]]
# [[Halruaa]]
# [[Harkle Harpell]]
# [[Heafstaag]]
# [[High Forest (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[High Ice]]
# [[High Moor]]
# [[Hlaungadath]]
# [[Hlondeth]]
# [[House Daermon N'a'shezbaernon]]
# [[House Daermon Na'Shezbaeron]]
# [[House Do'Urden]]
# [[House Do'urden]]
# [[Imaskar]]
# [[Ingeloakastimizilian]]
# [[Innovindel]]
# [[Innovindil]]
# [[Island Kingdoms of Faerûn]]
# [[Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder]]
# [[Jaezred Chaulssin]]
# [[Jak Fleet]]
# [[Jarlaxle Baenre]]
# [[Jergal]]
# [[Jewelled Dagger]]
# [[Khazid'hea]]
# [[Khelben Arunsun]]
# [[Khelben Blackstaff]]
# [[Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun]]
# [[Kierkan Rufo]]
# [[Kimmuriel Oblodra]]
# [[Kymil Nimesin]]
# [[Lady Alustriel]]
# [[Laeral Silverhand]]
# [[Lake of Steam]]
# [[Lantan (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Lord Ao]]
# [[Lord Nasher]]
# [[Lost Empires of Faerûn]]
# [[Lurue]]
# [[Malice Do'Urden]]
# [[Manshoon]]
# [[Matron Malice]]
# [[Maya Do'Urden]]
# [[Melvaunt]]
# [[Melvos]]
# [[Melvos Hammerstars]]
# [[Methrammar Aerasume]]
# [[Minor characters of the Silver Marches]]
# [[Montolio Debrouchee]]
# [[Moonblade]]
# [[Mulhorand]]
# [[Mulmaster]]
# [[Mythal]]
# [[Nalfein Do'Urden]]
# [[Narnra]]
# [[Narnra Shalace]]
# [[Nasher Alagondar]]
# [[Nelanther Isles]]
# [[Nesmé]]
# [[Nimbral]]
# [[Northmen (Dungeons & Dragons)]]
# [[Old Kingdoms (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Olive Ruskettle]]
# [[Ostoria]]
# [[Pelvuria]]
# [[Qilue]]
# [[Qilue Silverhand]]
# [[Qilue Veladorn]]
# [[Qilué]]
# [[Qilué Silverhand]]
# [[Qilué Veladorn]]
# [[Raurin]]
# [[Red Wizard of Thay]]
# [[Reghed (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Regis Rumblebelly]]
# [[Reth]]
# [[Rethild]]
# [[Rizzen]]
# [[Rizzen Do'Urden]]
# [[Ruathym]]
# [[Ruins of Chasolné]]
# [[Sarrukh]]
# [[Scornubel]]
# [[Sea of Swords (sea)]]
# [[Selûne]]
# [[Sembia]]
# [[Semphar]]
# [[Sespech]]
# [[Sess'Innek]]
# [[Shandril Shessair]]
# [[Shantel Othreier]]
# [[Shaundakul]]
# [[Shi'nayne Do'Urden]]
# [[Shining Plains]]
# [[Shining South]]
# [[Sossal]]
# [[Spellfire (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Storm Silverhand]]
# [[Suldanessellar]]
# [[Syluné]]
# [[Tablets of Fate]]
# [[Taegan Nightwind]]
# [[Tarathiel]]
# [[Tashalar]]
# [[Tchazzar]]
# [[Telflamm]]
# [[Tethyr]]
# [[Thann family]]
# [[Thar (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[The Forgotten Realms Deluxe Edition]]
# [[The Helm and Cloak]]
# [[The Iron Throne (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[The Vast]]
# [[Thesk]]
# [[Thibbledorf Pwent]]
# [[Threskel]]
# [[Tortured Land]]
# [[Turmish]]
# [[Ulgarth]]
# [[Unapproachable East]]
# [[Unther]]
# [[Vaasa (Forgotten Realms)]]
# [[Vangerdahast]]
# [[Var the Golden]]
# [[Veldorn]]
# [[Vierna]]
# [[Vierna Do'Urden]]
# [[Voonlar]]
# [[Waukeen's Promenade]]
# [[Western Heartlands]]
# [[Yvonnel Baenre]]
# [[Zhengyi (Character)]]
# [[Zhentil Keep]]
{{cob}} 
[[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 16:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

== "[[:Prespur]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prespur&redirect=no Prespur]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 24#Prespur}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 17:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Icingdeath]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Icingdeath&redirect=no Icingdeath]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 24#Icingdeath}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 17:19, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Taulmaril]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taulmaril&redirect=no Taulmaril]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 24#Taulmaril}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 17:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Selvetarm]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Selvetarm&redirect=no Selvetarm]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 24#Selvetarm}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 17:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Evermeet]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evermeet&redirect=no Evermeet]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 24#Evermeet}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 17:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Simbul]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simbul&redirect=no Simbul]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 25#Simbul}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 18:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
== "[[:Sea of Moving Ice]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sea_of_Moving_Ice&redirect=no Sea of Moving Ice]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 7#Sea of Moving Ice}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Jontesta|Jontesta]] ([[User talk:Jontesta|talk]]) 22:14, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
== "[[:Amaunator]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amaunator&redirect=no Amaunator]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 2#Amaunator}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 00:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
== "[[:Iyachtu Xvim]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iyachtu_Xvim&redirect=no Iyachtu Xvim]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 2#Iyachtu Xvim}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|1234qwer]][[Special:Contribs/1234qwer1234qwer4|4]] 00:46, 2 September 2024 (UTC)