View source for Talk:Felice Beato

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==Origins & identity==

I came across two problems while writing this article. First, Beato is constantly listed as a British photographer...but he was born in Italy. I could not find any information about his early life, so I figure he probably moved to England early in his life. Secondly, no birth years or death years match up. I've seen 1830, 1825, and 1820 for birth years and 1906, 1907, and 1908 for death years. I have no clue which years are correct and so no dates were included in the article. [[User:Aurora|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Aurora|<span style="color:#FF9999;">A</span><span style="color:#F76A5B;">u</span><span style="color:#F56150;">r</span><span style="color:#F35845;">o</span><span style="color:#F14D36;">r</span><span style="color:#EF3A1E;">a</span>]] ([[User talk:Aurora|<span style="color:#15A380;">Say hi!</span>]])[[<nowiki></nowiki>]] 05:28, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

:I'll be adding many more details of Beato's life as well as links to possible articles on his brother, Antonio, and others. The existing "James Robertson" link needs to be corrected (not the right James Robertson).[[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 19:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:It has been pretty well established that Beato and his brother Antonio were born on the Island of Corfu near Greece, which was then part of the British Empire to a British father (hence British citizenship) and an Italian mother.  The family then moved and lived on the island of Malta.  The brothers were later hired and taught photography by James Robertson, who married their sister.  I have lots more details on his life but don't know how this system of editing articles exactly works, so I am posting this here.  By the way, I don't think anyone knows the exact date of his death, but the most likely one is 1908.  He died apparently in Burma.  [[User:Photoarts|Photoarts]] 00:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC) 

::The article describes Felice's origins in Corfu and consequent British citizenship, and the marriage of Robertson to Felice and Antonio's sister, but some of the bits of information you mention I have not come across in any research (I wrote and researched the vast majority of this article). Can you provide references for the following: Antonio being born in Corfu (and maybe a date), British father and Italian mother, family move to Malta, and exactly why you suspect he died in 1908? Of these items, the only one I have seen before is the possible death date of 1908, so I'm very intrigued by your post and your promise of "lots more details". Please post any references or other replies here, but if you'd like to discuss related issues more generally, you can post a message on my [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pinkville talk page]. I look forward to futher discussion! Thanks. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 02:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm sorry, Pinkville, but you must have done the revise/update to the page after I reviewed it.  None of this data was on the page at the point that I reviewed it (in fact it was full of errors and pretty skimpy).  You've done an admirable job pulling together this detailed data on Beato, and the article reads very well.  I will try to get the research that you requested pulled together on some of your questions and either repost here or on your talk page.  I'm just not sure when.  Probably after my next nervous breakdown. By the way, his photos of the Sudan certainly have survived.  I have even owned one myself.[[User:Photoarts|Photoarts]] 02:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

::::No worries, and thanks. I think what probably happened is that you came across the article during one of its vandalism phases, because most of the information I mentioned has been present in it since last November (since then there have been several updates to the article, which is otherwise generally the same). I do indeed hope to see your research sometime soon - and hopefully without any accompanying nervous breakdown! Ciao! [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 02:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

==The 1825 date==
An explanation is given of 1834 as a possible year of birth, but nothing is said about the candidature of 1825. Could something be added please? [[User:Honbicot|Honbicot]] 08:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

:As much as it's possible (the sources give no details) I've explained the 1825 date. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 17:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

== the Qingyi yuan and the Yuanmingyuan ==

About Beato's photos from China: at first I assumed that the photos were incorrectly identified.  The famous destruction of 1860 was of the Yuanmingyuan and not the Qingyi Yuan (the 'old' summer palace, rather than the 'new').  However, the buildings in the photos look far too imposing and tall.  That wouldn't fit with the Yuanmingyuan which seems to have been vast but also quite intimate in character.  However, the text is still ambiguous since it seems to refer to the far more famous destruction of the far more important summer palace, the Yuanmingyuan.  This compound of imperial palaces was looted by French troops on October 8 and 9, 1860, and burnt by the British, under Lord Elgin, on October 18 an 19.

I'm writing a book about this topic, but I've just started and I have a lot to learn.  Check out the book's blog at: http://ringmar.net/europeanfury/

cheers

:Beato photographed Yuanming Yuan - but only ''after'' the burning and only producing a few images at most. The photo of the "Belvedere of the God of Literature" and many others were most definitely taken at Qingyi Yuan, where he photographed before and after the burning. The Belvedere, pictured here, was rebuilt (one storey shorter) by order of Cixi in the 1880s and is still a feature of the rebuilt and restored Yihe Yuan to this day. Both complexes, Yuanming Yuan and Qingyi Yuan were devastated by the looting and burning which were carried out simultaneously in the two places (with, as you say, the looting beginning on the 8 and 9 October and the burning on the 18-19 October). Having studied literally hundreds of photographs by Beato and John Thomson (who visited the site in 1872) I can affirm that the destruction of Qingyi Yuan was as complete as that of Yuanming Yuan, which you correctly note was originally the more important (though not "far more" so) of the two complexes but which was not rebuilt. The confusion of the names of the two complexes (both being called "Summer Palace", both often being called "Yuanming Yuan") has not helped for an accurate understanding of what took place at each location, often encouraging people to think that only Yuanming Yuan/the Old Summer Palace was destroyed (e.g. see this remarkable blundering review [http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/news/releases/display.php?id=298] of Harris's exhibition/book, referring to the Old Summer Palace when Harris (and Beato) explicitly deal with the New Summer Palace!). It's worth noting that one of the reasons Yuanming Yuan was often highlighted by foreign visitors (before and after the destruction) was because of the many European-influenced structures there, built under the guidance of Jesuit architects. 

:The text isn't ambiguous - I don't make any reference at all to Yuanming Yuan. You are simply incorrect in stating that Qingyi Yuan was not also destroyed on 18-19 October 1860.

:Feel free to make the distinction between the French actions at Qingyi Yuan and those of the British at the same place - but don't forget to provide a reference or cite one from those listed at the end of the article.

:I'm familiar with Hevia's excellent work. You might want to check out David Harris's "Of Battle and Beauty : Felice Beato's Photographs of China" which is extremely well-researched and which provides the complete photographic record produced by Beato of the Anglo-French military expedition of the Second Opium War. 

: I've checked out your site and it looks like you're well on your way. I look forward to seeing your book! [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 15:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


Hi there, I'm enjoying this.  I'm learning, which is what it's all about.  But surely the Yuanmingyuan was far more important than the Qingyiyuan, that's where the emperor lived after all -- rather than in the Forbidden City -- and that's where he collected all the amazing treasures.  The Yuanmingyuan was only partially European-built, the far larger part was traditional Chinese garden with temples and pavillions and rockeries.  I wonder whether the Qingyiyuan could have been considered as included in the Yuanmingyuan complex, and that this is the reason why it's destruction often is not listed as a separate incident.  It took the British two days and 3000 men to burn the whole thing down after all and they covered a very wide area.  Btw, I've posted some of my own photos from Qingyiyuan on my own site.  Including special Chinese princesses.

all the best,

Erik

:As David Harris puts it: "the British force... systematically burnt not only the Yuanmingyuan but a much wider area - approximately 64 square miles - that included Wanshoushan" (i.e. Qingyi Yuan). The two complexes were destroyed in the same operation.

:Susan Naquin notes: "In the latter half of the nineteenth century, Westerners used "Yuanmingyuan" in a confused fashion to refer to all of the suburban villas" (i.e. Yuanming Yuan, Qingyi Yuan, Nan Yuan, Jingyi Yuan, etc.). (Beato, himself, titled his Qingyi Yuan photos "Yuen Ming Yuen"). Distinctions in name between the different complexes may not have been known - or were not considered important - to the Western commentators, but obviously were well known to the Chinese.

:I imagine you know that the Xianfeng Emperor had, on 22 September, already fled Yuanming Yuan for the safety of his summer residence at Rehe. Qingyi Yuan seems to have been of particular importance to Empress Dowager Cixi, who, afterall, rebuilt it at vast expense (apparently "squandering" the budget earmarked for the navy). Once rebuilt, and renamed Yihe Yuan, the complex was again severly damaged during the Boxer Rebellion, when troops of the Eight Allied Armies ransacked the reconstructed buildings, pillaging and vandalising - even breaking off the many relief-sculpture images of Buddha carved into the walls of the Temple of the Sea of Wisdom (Zhihui Hai) at the top of Wanshoushan overlooking the rest of Yihe Yuan. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 20:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks a lot for this.  I've learnt stuff.  Btw, I was reading Robert Swinhoe's account of the destruction today.  It's probably the best in that he spoke Chinese and was very careful in his descriptions.  I've ordered the Harris book on Beato.  His photos are certainly first-class.

greetings from London, Erik

== How I can add a new page?? ==

can anybody tell me??
How I can add a new page??
Thanks <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Fadia ismael|Fadia ismael]] ([[User talk:Fadia ismael|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fadia ismael|contribs]]) 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

== An external link to a gallery ==

Hello, here is an external link to an interesting and rare gallery that i added but was deleted by a meta user.

*[http://oldphoto.lb.nagasaki-u.ac.jp/en/list.php?req=1&target=Beato F Beato: 150 photos] from "Metadata Database of Japanese Old Photographs in Bakumatsu-Meiji Periods" (english version) <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/87.90.44.39|87.90.44.39]] ([[User talk:87.90.44.39|talk]]) 17:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
[[User:Erve|Erve]] 17:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

:Actually, I deleted that link since it is already listed in the references ("Nagasaki University Library"). Thanks though. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 17:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==
Can we get temporary protection to deter chronic vandalism about anal intercourse? [[User:Freedomlinux|Freedomlinux]] 02:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
:Or at least a citation to support the notion that Beato liked it up the bum... :~) [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] 02:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

==ToC floating (or not)==
On [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Felice_Beato&diff=146456300&oldid=142705046 this edit]: What's bad about having the ToC float? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] 06:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

== Earliest color photographs? ==
Look at these, the first photo (from the 1860's) appears to be a color photograph. (The earliest known color photo is from 1861). Is this real, or did someone "photoshop" it at some point? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Samurai.jpg
Here's another one, but more fated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Satsuma-samurai-during-boshin-war-period.jpg  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Russianspy3|Russianspy3]] ([[User talk:Russianspy3|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Russianspy3|contribs]]) 03:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:These are [[hand-coloured]] albumen print photographs, not colour photographs, but correctly dated original images. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 23:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

== Sudan Photos ==

Probably ought to explain that last edit. There appear to be about 50 photos in the collection of The National Archives of photographs by Beato of Egypt and the Sudan taken c.1885.

You can see the list
[http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=felice+beato&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=copy+1&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=GO here]

--[[Special:Contributions/62.25.109.195|62.25.109.195]] ([[User talk:62.25.109.195|talk]]) 14:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

-- Sorry, probably would have been easier if I'd signed in for that. [[User:Mr impossible|Mr impossible]] ([[User talk:Mr impossible|talk]]) 14:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for the link. I've seen this list before, and it may well be true that the Sudan photos listed are by Beato, but without any further supporting evidence we can't be sure. I would love to see the actual images and I imagine some researcher will eventually get around to confirming whether they are Beato's work or not. (For that matter, they might be by Felice's brother, Antonio - also a photographer - who lived and worked in Egypt!). Until such comfirmation, it remains true that ''none are '''known''' to have survived''. I also reverted the addition of "Egypt" because earlier in his career Felice Beato made many photos in that country and so the statement that ''very few'' of his Egypt photos have survived is misleading. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 20:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

::::Ah. Two things. Firstly, I've actually seen these photographs. I'll have to see about getting them up on The National Archives Flickr page. Secondly, you misunderstand what these records are. Each one of the images (a number of which are fabulous by the way) is attached to a signed form attesting to the authorship of the photograph for copyright purposes. (Hence the catalogue references of COPY 1) I am that researcher. You couldn't get a clearer attribution! --[[User:Mr impossible|Mr impossible]] ([[User talk:Mr impossible|talk]]) 17:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Since The National Archives have three pictures by Felice Beato from Sudan on its Flickr page, I have just uploaded two of them onto Commons and will use them for other articles. But in the meantime, the former tenet that none of these photos were known to exist today has been deleted. [[User:Munfarid1|Munfarid1]] ([[User talk:Munfarid1|talk]] 16:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

== FAR ==

Hi everyone! As everyone who is watching this page probably already knows, this article was nominated for a FAR almost two weeks ago, but the FAR was untranscluded due to multiple nominations from the same editor. Normally this would mean that it would just be re-transcluded when the other noms moved through the pipeline, but in this case it's a bit different. In the gap between when it was initially nominated and now, we have instituted a new rule that calls for talk page notification before FARs are initiated, in order to allow work on the article beforehand and hopefully reduce the need for full blown FAR processes. There is also the problem that the nominator has been blocked as a sock (the master account is blocked as well), and although that doesn't mean the points they made in the FAR are completely invalid, we can't really ask them what their rationale was on various points. Here is the discussion from the FAR page so far, and my reply:

Featured article from 2005 which has 1c problems throughout. There are only two citations in the "China" section, and none in the "Japan" and "Later life" sections. Expansion may also be needed for the article to be fully comprehensive, and the list of selected photographs needs to be replaced by a gallery. [[User:Jan 1922|Jan 1922]] ([[User talk:Jan 1922|talk]]) 20:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

:Not arguing, just wondering: What's the meaning of "1c problems", why should the list of selected photographs be replaced by a gallery, and which area(s) of Beato's work or life appear to need expanded coverage? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 22:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

::[[WP:WIAFA|Featured article criteria]] 1c states that the article must be "'''well-researched''':  it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature.  Claims are [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiable]] against high-quality [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources|reliable sources]] and are supported by inline citations [[Wikipedia:When to cite|where appropriate]];". 
::The last sentence is usually the most problematic on older FARs, as inline citation and high quality reliable source requirements have become more strict over time. I'm not sure why Jan wanted a gallery, as those are often discouraged in FAs (actually in all articles), and I'm also not sure about the expansion request.
::As for myself, I would like to point out that the lead should be expanded as [[WP:LEAD]] calls for 2-3 paragraphs for an article of this length. There is also one dab link and half a dozen dead links. [[User:Dana boomer|Dana boomer]] ([[User talk:Dana boomer|talk]]) 14:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you; that's helpful. I've transcluded "Featured article tools" (itself titled "Toolbox"), which should show the dud links. If nobody else gets around to fixing these within a few days, then I'll attempt it. I'll also reconsider the lead. ¶ Meanwhile, [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Felice Beato/archive1]] may have been untranscluded, but anyone coming across it would infer that a (curiously mute) FAR is in progress. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 23:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
:True. I've left a note that the FAR is "on hold" and discussion should take place here. [[User:Dana boomer|Dana boomer]] ([[User talk:Dana boomer|talk]]) 00:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

=="Beitang"==

Yes, the article has problems. I thought that fixing disambigs would be easily, and so I lazily decided to do that alone today. My job looked easier when I found that there was only one link to a disambig page. Unfortunately I can't confidently choose among two of the options provided. I therefore asked [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China#.E5.8C.97.E5.A1.98|here]]. 

Which I bother to relate here mostly in order to avoid the impression that nobody cares about the problems in this article or about having these fixed. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 02:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

:Ling.Nut has kindly fixed the disambig. So now this article has one fewer species of problem. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 03:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

==''Imperial Summer Palace before the Burning''==

I've pulled out:

<div style="border:5px;margin:10px;background-color:#ddf">
;: [http://www.pem.org/collections/photography/01.jpg ''Imperial Summer Palace before the Burning, Yuen-Ming-Yuen (sic), Pekin, October 18th, 1860'']
::View of the Belvedere of the God of Literature [Wen Chang Di Jun Ge] (now known as the Studio of Literary Prosperity or Wen Chang Ge), Garden of the Clear Ripples [Qing Yi Yuan] (now known as the Summer Palace or Yihe Yuan), Peking (now Beijing), China, 1860
</div>

because the link doesn't work. The Peabody Essex Museum website still exists but I can't find the photograph within it. But perhaps PEM will eventually improve its site so that it will be findable. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 02:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

==External links==

All that are provided work. ([http://toolserver.org/%7Edispenser/cgi-bin/webchecklinks.py/Felice_Beato Try for yourself.]) Or anyway they did a few minutes ago. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 05:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

: Why not just copy all the images to Commons and provide a gallery on the page?  They're all PD by now. [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] ([[User talk:Jpatokal|talk]]) 10:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

== FAR comments ==

I am planning on putting this up for FAR, but I would like to post my concerns on the talk page first. The major problems with the article is the lack of references, like in the sections "Japan" and "Later Years". Also, there should be a removal of the "Selected photographs" as its irrelevant.  [[User talk:GamerPro64|<span style="color:red;">GamerPro64</span>]] 17:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
:I now have material for a lot of small improvements; these should be in place within 24 hours. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

== Korea ==
Of Beato's trip to Korea, we read that:

:''The views Beato took on this expedition are the earliest confirmed photographs of the country and its inhabitants.''

Which was unsourced. 

Choi Injin and Park Juseok's book ''The Century of Korean Photography: Images from the Land of the Morning Calm'' (Seoul: RIHP, 2001; no ISBN) doesn't mention Beato or any other very early photographer by name, but does talk of a military photographer with a French squadron in 1866. This would predate Beato. Choi and Park only mention such very early photography in passing, but a statement sourced laconically trumps another not sourced at all. I therefore removed the assertion. The assertion may well be correct, but if so then let's see a source. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

:Now kind-of fixed. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

==Uncited references==

A lot of the references weren't actually cited. I've therefore removed them, but I reproduce them below. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 13:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

*Auer, Michèle, and Michel Auer. ''Encyclopédie internationale des photographes de 1839 à nos jours/Photographers Encyclopaedia International 1839 to the Present.'' Hermance: Editions Camera Obscura, 1985. {{ISBN|2903671052}}; {{ISBN|2903671060}}.
*Bennett, Terry. ''Korea: Caught in time.'' Reading, UK: Garnet Publishing, 1997.
*Bernard J Shapero Rare Books London, at Ideageneration.co.uk, Photo-London. Accessed 3 April 2006. [Material from before April 2008 has been deleted from this website.]
*Best, Geoffrey. ''Mid-Victorian Britain, 1851–75.'' London: Fontana Press, 1971.
*Blau, Eve, and Edward Kaufman, eds. ''Architecture and Its Image: Four Centuries of Architectural Representation, Works from the Collection of the Canadian Centre for Architecture.'' Montréal: Centre Canadien d'Architecture/Canadian Centre for Architecture, 1989.
*Boston University Art Gallery. "[http://www.bu.edu/art/webPages/exhibBattle.html Of Battle and Beauty: Felice Beato's Photographs of China]{{dead link|date=June 2011}}". Accessed 3 April 2006. [Now [http://web.archive.org/web/20090107210217/http://www.bu.edu/art/webPages/exhibBattle.html here] c/o the Wayback Machine, but very small reproductions]
*Dobson, Sebastian. "Yokohama Shashin". In ''Art and Artifice: Japanese Photographs of the Meiji Era&nbsp;— Selections from the Jean S. and Frederic A. Sharf Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.'' Boston: MFA Publications, 2004.
* George Eastman House. [http://www.geh.org/ne/mismi3/india_sum00001.html "India"; "Technology and War"]. Accessed 3 April 2006.
*Masselos, Jim. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20060430145736/http://www.visasia.com.au/programmes/arts_of_asia/arts_of_india_2004/the_photographers_gaze_seeing_19th_century_india The Photographer's Gaze: Seeing 19th Century India]", VisAsia. Resume of speech given on 7 September 2004. Updated 2005; as archived by the [[Wayback Machine]] on 30 April 2006. [Just a list of titles; nothing much of interest here.]
*Musée Nicéphore Niépce. "[http://www.museeniepce.com/book3.php?folder_code=63 Thé/Laque/Photographie]{{dead link|date=June 2011}}". Collection du musée Niépce. Accessed 3 April 2006. {{In lang|fr}} [http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.museeniepce.com/book3.php?folder_code=63 Here] at the Wayback Machine, but the text is uninteresting and the photographs are impossible, or at least very hard, to access]
*Osman, Colin. "Invenzione e verità sulla vita di Felice Beato". In 'Felice Beato: Viaggio in Giappone, 1863–1877', eds. Claudia Gabriele Philipp, et al. Milan: Federico Motta, 1991. (P.&nbsp;17, fig. 14.) {{In lang|it}}
*Oztuncay, Bahattin. ''James Robertson: Pioneer of Photography in the Ottoman Empire.'' Istanbul: Eren, 1992. (Pp.&nbsp;24–26.)
*Peabody Essex Museum. [http://www.pem.org/collections/12-photography  Collections: Photography]. Accessed 31 October 2010. [It's not at all clear how this website can be used]
*Perez, Nissan N. ''Focus East: Early Photography in the Near East, 1839–1885.'' New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1988.
*Phoebe A. Hearst Museum of Anthropology. [http://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/photo/beato.html ''The World in a Frame: Photographs from the Great Age of Exploration, 1865–1915'', s.v. "Felice Beato"]. Accessed 3 April 2006.
*Rahman, Ram. "[http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1815/18150640.htm Camera Indica: Photography as history and memory in the 19th century]". ''Frontline'' volume 18, issue 15, 21 July – 3 August 2001. Accessed 3 April 2006. [In part a description of Masselos and Gupta's book]
*[[Ernest Satow|Satow, Ernest]]. ''A Diplomat in Japan.'' London: Seeley, Service, 1921. Many reprints. Beato is mentioned at the beginning of Chapter X, "Shimonoseki&nbsp;— Naval Operations". [Yes, but only ''mentioned.'']
*[http://www.getty.edu/vow/ULANFullDisplay?find=beato&role=&nation=&prev_page=1&subjectid=500002985 Union List of Artists Names, s.v. "Beato, Felice"]. Accessed 3 April 2006.
*[http://www.vintageworks.net/search/result_list.php/256/Robertson%2C+James Vintage Works, s.v. "Robertson, James"]. Accessed 3 April 2006.
*[http://www.vintageworks.net/search/result_list.php/256/Robertson%2C+James+and+Beato%2C+Felice Vintage Works, s.v. "Robertson, James and Beato, Felice"]. Accessed 3 April 2006.
*Zannier, Italo. ''Verso oriente: Fotografie di Antonio e Felice Beato.'' Florence: Alinari, 1986.
*[http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=138670&imageID=118907&word=japan&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&total=1807&num=384&imgs=12&pNum=&pos=393 New York Public Library Digital Gallery, Beato image of Shrine steps where Shogun Minamoto no Sanetomo was killed]
*Canadian Centre for Architecture. [http://svrdam.cca.qc.ca/ZooMI/Default.aspx?obj=PH1981:0809:001-005 Collections Online, "Panorama of Edo (now Tokyo)", PH1981:0809:001-005]. Accessed 31 October 2010.

I've also added to this one or two references that ''were'' used but that I was unable to consult and that I have replaced with other references that say the same thing, that are just as authoritative, and that I have seen. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 14:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm adding notes to some, in "[ ]". -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 07:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

==Unsourced passages==
I'm removing passages that nobody has yet sourced:

===From the end of "Taku Forts"===

:The resultant photographs are a powerful representation of military triumph and British [[imperialism|imperialist]] power, not least for the purchasers of his images: British soldiers, colonial administrators, merchants and tourists. Back in Britain Beato’s images were used to justify the Opium (and other colonial) Wars and they shaped public awareness of the cultures that existed in the [[Eastern world|East]].

===From the end of "Summer Palace"===

: Hering had them duplicated and then resold them. When they first went on sale single views were offered at 7 shillings, while the complete India series was priced at £54&nbsp;8s and the complete China series at £37&nbsp;8s. Knowing that by 1867 the average per capita income in England and Wales was £32 per year<ref>Original research by [[Robert Dudley Baxter]], in a paper presented in 1868 to the Royal Statistical Society on National Income of the United Kingdom. Cited in Studenski, 116. In turn cited in Collette, 64 (Table 11, “Estimated income figures for England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland, 1867”).</ref> puts the price of Beato’s photographs into perspective.

====one note for this====
{{Reflist-talk}}<!-- Template:Reflist-talk creates a section-level reference list box. Please add comments and references for this section's discussion above this template. When a new discussion begins, the new section will be added below this template. Add a new {{Reflist-talk}} at the end of that section if needed. -->

====two references needed for the note====
:*Collette, Jean-Michel. “Empirical Inquiries and the Assessment of Social Progress in Western Europe: A Historical Perspective”. Social Policy and Development Programme Paper number 3. United Nations Research Institute for Social Development, June 2000. Available [http://www.unrisd.org/unrisd/website/document.nsf/0/bf4dd21f401d9e7b80256b5e004d8f21/$FILE/collette.pdf here] (PDF) at the [[United Nations Research Institute for Social Development|UNRISD]] website. Accessed 19 June 2011.
:*Studenski, Paul. ''The Income of Nations: Theory, Measurement, and Analysis: Past and Present: A Study in Applied Economics and Statistics.'' New York: New York University Press, 1958.

===on his time in Burma===

:Examples of his mail order catalogue&nbsp;— affixed with Beato’s own photographs of the merchandise on offer&nbsp;— are in the possession of at least two photographic collections. 

===on the wet collodion process (within the discussion of photographic techniques)===

:Beyond aesthetic considerations, the long exposure times needed by this process must have been a further stimulus to Beato to frame and position the subjects of his photographs carefully. Apart from his portrait-making, he often posed local people in such a way as to set off the architectural or topographical subjects of his images, but otherwise people (and other moving objects) are sometimes rendered a blur or disappear altogether during the long exposures. Such blurs are a common feature of 19th century photographs.

===on copy prints (within the discussion of photographic techniques)===

:Like other 19th century [[commercial photography|commercial photographers]], Beato often made copy prints of his original photographs. The original would have been pinned to a stationary surface and then photographed, producing a second negative from which to make more [[photographic printing|prints]].<ref>Peres.</ref> The pins used to hold the original in place are sometimes visible in copy prints. In spite of the limitations of this method, including the loss of detail and degradation of other picture elements, it was an effective and economical way to duplicate images.

{{Reflist-talk}}<!-- Template:Reflist-talk creates a section-level reference list box. Please add comments and references for this section's discussion above this template. When a new discussion begins, the new section will be added below this template. Add a new {{Reflist-talk}} at the end of that section if needed. -->

===entire section titled "Attribution"===

:While the signatures he shared with his brother are one source of confusion in attributing images to Felice Beato, there are additional difficulties in this task. When Stillfried & Andersen bought up Beato’s stock they subsequently followed the common practice of 19th century commercial photographers of reselling the photographs under their own name. They (and others) also altered Beato’s images by adding numbers, names and other inscriptions associated with their firm in the negative, on the print or on the mount. For many of Beato’s images that were not hand-coloured, Stillfried & Andersen produced hand-coloured versions. All of these factors have caused Beato’s photographs to be frequently misattributed to Stillfried & Andersen. Fortunately, Beato captioned many of his photographs by writing in [[graphite]] or ink on the back of the print. When such photographs are mounted, the captions can still often be seen through the front of the image and read with the use of a mirror. Besides helping in the identification of the subject of the image and sometimes in supplying a date for the exposure, these captions provide one method of identifying Felice Beato as the creator of many images.

== 'See Also' Section Added with Reference to the Film "Felice, Felice" ==

I originally put a Talk comment here asking someone to do this, but I think I figured out how to do it OK. If not of course someone can improve or correct it. 
[[User:Hanamizu|Hanamizu]] ([[User talk:Hanamizu|talk]]) 04:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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==[[WP:URFA/2020]] review==

I was reviewing this article as part of [[WP:URFA/2020]] for a potential [[WP:TFA]] run in January. However, when skimming the article I noticed that there are lots of uncited passages, including most of "Burma and later years" and information about his death certificate. Is anyone willing to review this article, add citations and potentially look for additional sources that might be included in this article? If not, I will nominate this for [[WP:FAR]]. {{ping|Pinkville}} the FAC nominator, {{ping|Hoary}} who participated in the 2011 FAR. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 16:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

:I can dig up the citations for the passages you mention and any others that require the same. It might take a little while, but as the principal writer/editor of the article I should still have the relevant notes.  [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 04:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
::{{ping|Pinkville}} Were you able to find additional sources? I noticed that "Burma and later years" is still largely uncited. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 01:16, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, I've been waiting to get access to the relevant sources. Should be able to update soon. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 17:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Pinkville}} Are you still interested in updating this article? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 01:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
:::::Absolutely. I recently was able to lay my hands on the necessary sources. I should be able to do some work on it soon. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 04:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|Pinkville}} There is still a lot of uncited sections. Are you still working on this, or can you send this to FAR? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 19:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Still working on this. Should be able to update it soon. Thanks!  [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 16:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

==Material about the Burmese period==
It has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Felice_Beato/archive2&oldid=1277347031 pointed out] that the material about Burma (incidentally, added not by {{U|Pinkville}} but by {{U|GillesdeF}}) is seriously underreferenced.

Wong Hong Suen, "Picturing Burma: Felice Beato's Photographs of Burma 1886–1905" (2008) {{DOI|10.1080/03087290701723139}} looks very promising at first glance. 

The pair from late last year "[https://ambyangon.esteri.it/en/news/dall_ambasciata/2024/11/rethink-beato-from-italy-to-burma-1832-1909-on-the-trail-of-the-mysterious-photographer-who-documented-19th-century-asia/ Rethink Beato: from Italy to Burma (1832–1909) – On the trail of the mysterious photographer who documented 19th-century Asia]" (by Nicolò Tassoni Estense, the force behind the Italian embassy-backed exhibition) and "[https://www.myanmore.com/2024/12/through-beatos-lens-an-italian-story-in-the-heart-of-myanmar/ Through Beato’s lens: An Italian story in the heart of Myanmar]" (about the exhibition) would have only very limited direct usefulness; but they make me wonder whether Tassoni Estense might either have published something substantial elsewhere or be planning to do so.

Google Scholar led me to a couple of works that cite Suen's paper:

*Mandy Sadan, "[https://brill.com/view/journals/bki/170/2-3/article-p281_5.xml The historical visual economy of photography in Burma]" (2014) {{DOI|10.1163/22134379-17002024}}, and open access.
*Carmin Berchiolly, "[https://www.proquest.com/openview/c1186e32566157d7d87ab860094b35ae/1 Capturing Burma: Reactivating colonial photographic images through the British Raj's gaze]" (2018), an MA thesis and thus unusable as a reference, but perhaps pointing to sources (suggested by the supervisor?) that might both postdate (or otherwise elude) Sadan's paper and be usable.

Sadan's paper cites, among others:

*Noel Singer (1993). ''Burmah: A photographic journey, 1855–1925.'' {{ISBN|9781870838269}}

-- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 07:03, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

:Hi there. This is GillesdeF writing... sometimes you can not reference because it is one's own research and unpublished.

:I guess I am probably one of the best specialists of Beato in Burma (organized an exhibition of his works in Yangon in 2014 with the Yangon Heritage Trust, participated in the "Images Birmanes" exhibition at Musee Guimet in Paris, sold in 2024 a collection of 250 albumen prints to the National Gallery of Singapore that will be shown soon) but I do not publish. Most of the information I published in the Burma section however is supported by a piece published in Arts of Asia, September-October 1998 by Noel F. Singer. Noel F. Singer has published a number of books about Burma and old photographs of Rangoon but none includes this study on Beato. The Arts of Asia is pretty difficult to find. Let me know if I can send scanned copies of the text for support. Best regards. gilles [[User:GillesdeF|GillesdeF]] ([[User talk:GillesdeF|talk]]) 07:25, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

::Thank you for the fast and informative response, [[User:GillesdeF|Gilles]]. (And welcome back to en:Wikipedia!) Best is for you to use Singer's article to reference those parts of the section on Burma for which it genuinely is a source. If you're inexperienced in doing this, try your best and don't worry if you can't get the formatting quite right: a more experienced editor will help. Immediately after each bit for which Singer's article is not a source, add <code><nowiki>{{Citation needed|date=February 2025}}</nowiki></code>. (The short-term result will of course be a hideous mess, screaming for demotion from "featured" status. Don't worry about this.) And then some editor will see how much of the material that "needs citation" (needs to have a source cited) is in Suen's paper, in Sadan's, or any other good source. What still needs citation will then have to be deleted. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 08:59, 24 February 2025 (UTC)
:It appears that a catalogue for the Rethink Beato exhibition may be forthcoming https://www.ideabooks.nl/9783950407983-rethink-beato-from-italy-to-burma-1832-1909. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 17:33, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

==Quests for citeable sources==
==="Felice Antonio Beato"===
"In 1983 it was shown by Chantal Edel<sup>[6]</sup> that 'Felice Antonio Beato' represented two brothers, Felice Beato and Antonio Beato, who sometimes worked together, sharing a signature. The confusion arising from the signatures continues to cause problems in identifying which of the two photographers was the creator of a given image." Citing Zannier, Italo. ''Antonio e Felice Beato.'' Venice: Ikona Photo Gallery, 1983. 

{{U|Hog Farm}} very reasonably wants a confirmation that this source actually says what it's represented as saying.

I have never seen this book (or booklet). As it happens, I'm in Japan, and CiNii (Japan's answer to Worldcat) shows [https://ci.nii.ac.jp/books/search?advanced=true&count=20&sortorder=3&type=1&title=Antonio+e+Felice+Beato&author=Zannier&update_keep=true no copy in any academic Japanese library]. (As for non-academic Japanese libraries, I'm certain none would have it.) I imagine that the same material appears in Zannier's article in the Grove ''Dictionary of Art''. I could consult that, but doing so would take two hour-long train journeys. I propose to make one or two slight simplifications here and to cite [http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/modernpeople/5237/full/ this Harvard University page] for the result. How does that sound?  -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 06:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
: {{ping|Hoary}} - I was able to find the correct volume of ''Grove'' on the Internet Archive. The relevant bit in the text here is {{xt|Antonio Beato [...] and his brother Felice [...] were for many years thought to be one person with two names, Antonio and Felice, and only recently has the mystery been solved of the almost contemporaneous presence of a Beato in two different (and often very distant) places. The misunderstanding arose from the fact that both their names (Antonio Felice Beato) appear on several photographs. A closer inquiry brought to light a letter written by Antonio and published in the French paper, ''Moniteur de la photographie'' (1 June 1886) in which he explains that he is not the producer of the exotic photographs recently exhibited in London, mention of which had been made in the ''Moniteur'' of 10 March; the photographer was instead '[his] brother Monsieur Felice Beato of Japan'.}} The following page also mentions that in 1858 Felice and Robertson were in India documenting the aftermath of the Lucknow revolt while Antonio remained in the studio. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 03:35, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
::Sorry for the several-day silence, [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]]: I was busy with WP-unrelated matters. Searching for "Felix A. Beato" brings some feeble material, some self-confessed Wikipedia scrapes, and a lot of shameless non-self-confessed Wikipedia scrapes. I can't find that volume of ''Grove'' within the valuable but ever-confusing archive.org, but of course I take your word for what the article within it that volume says. (If you can find the archive.org link, perhaps you could add it -- as I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Felice_Beato&diff=1282037466&oldid=1281200511 done] for Lacoste.) Likewise I take {{U|Pinkville}}'s word for what Zannier's book says. Writing as long ago as 1983, Chevedden corrects the mistake (in a book published in 1972) of conflating the two brothers. I can't see how I could back up the claim that the confusion persists until now without citing obviously poor sources (thus suggesting that poor sources are poor sources, something that hardly needs to be said) and/or employing "original synthesis"; and so I simply deleted the claim. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:16, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::: {{ping|Hoary}} - I've added the archive.org link [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 00:58, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
:Haha That Harvard source is quoting, word for word, what I wrote in Wikipedia. The Zannier book is an exhibition catalogue, very hard to find 40+ years later. But the information is correct. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 16:40, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

===Beato sans Robertson===
"it is now generally accepted that Beato travelled [to northern India in 1858] alone" (i.e. without Robertson).
This is a comment to the claim that he went there, and then. {{U|Hog Farm}} very reasonably wants a reference for this. That Beato did go there and then is a claim for which the reader is referred to:

*Harris, David. ''Of Battle and Beauty: Felice Beato's Photographs of China.'' Santa Barbara: Santa Barbara Museum of Art, 1999. P.&nbsp;23.
*Dehejia, Vidya, et al. ''India through the Lens: Photography 1840–1911.'' Washington, D.C.: Freer Gallery of Art and Arthur M. Sackler Gallery; Ahmedabad: Mapin; Munich, Prestel, 2000. P.&nbsp;121.
*Masselos, Jim, and Narayani Gupta. ''Beato's Delhi 1857, 1957.'' Delhi: Ravi Dayal, 2000. P.&nbsp;1.

I'd guess that the claim that Beato went without Robertson is backed up in at least one of the three. Each is available at a small number of university libraries. I could probably get hold of each, but it would require a special application and very likely a special trip to the university in question. ({{U|Pinkville}}, would you happen to have access to a copy of any of these three?)

Perhaps I'm lazy, but I'd rather cite exhibits on the web. Running down the list of Google perhaps-hits, I see:

*[https://library.brown.edu/cds/askb/pdf/Beato.pdf This article] (p. 70) in ''Military History'' comes close to agreeing with the "footnote", but doesn't quite get there. 
*[https://visualizingcultures.mit.edu/beato_people/fb2_essay03.html This page] at MIT says that Beato and Robertson went here and there, but that Beato (and not Robertson) went to India. But it may well be written by a student. On the third hand, if it is a student production, it's soundly supervised -- the (eminent) professors in charge have attached their names to the project. 
*The article "[https://journals.openedition.org/cve/10435?lang=en Memorising the Mutiny: Felice Beato’s Lucknow Photographs]" ({{DOI|10.4000/cve.10435}}) seems good; it's from the journal ''Cahiers victoriens et édouardiens'' from [[Centre pour l'Édition Électronique Ouverte|OpenEdition Journals]]; Wikipedia thinks highly enough of OpenEdition to [[Wikipedia:OpenEdition|include their offerings in TWL]] (but the HTML version of the whole article can be read by anyone). 
*[https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/beato/ This description] by the [[Getty Center]] of an exhibition there 14 years ago talks of Beato's photography in India (as opposed to Robertson and Beato's photography in/around Constantinople).

How do the above sound as potentially citeable sources? -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 06:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
: The wikipedia article for OpenEdition states that it's overseen by [[Aix-Marseille University]], which appears to be a reputable French university; I think that journal article ought to be reliable. If necessary, I can make a Saturday trip to try to access a copy of Harris, but I don't know when I'd have the time for that. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 03:22, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

::A few minutes ago, [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]], I tinkered a little with this part of the article. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:18, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::: {{ping|Hoary}} - Hmm... The Zannier article in ''Grove'' (which I've linked in the source citation in the article) says {{xt|and finally India, where in 1858 Felice and Robertson documented the massacres carried out by the British army following the Lucknow revolt}}. So that source has both of them in India in 1858, but the ''Military History'' article says that there's little evidence of Robertson actually being in India (I can't get the Open Edition webpage to open for me right now). I'll defer to you and {{u|Pinkville}}'s greater knowledge of the sources. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 01:06, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::::[[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]], not mine but {{u|Pinkville}}'s. Still, flattery is always welcome.... I've tweaked note 4 a little further. What do you think? Incidentally, I wonder a little about the copyright, uh, rectitude of the Brown U reproduction of the ''Military History'' article; but the URL suggests that it was uploaded not by a teacher (let alone a student) but instead by the library, so it ''ought'' to be OK.... [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 02:17, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
::::: {{ping|Hoary}} - Looks good to me! I think the article is in ''[[Military Heritage]]'' not ''Military History''. I'd personally be a bit hesistant to link to the Brown U reproduction in the article but I have no qualms about using that as a source. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 02:31, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
:::::: Well, duh. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Felice_Beato&diff=1282073647&oldid=1282062944 Fixed]. I too hesitated about linking to the Brown U PDF; but a library really ought to know what it's doing. Moreover, Brown U does (on its topmost web page) invite us to "Explore the countless paths and opportunities that Brown has to offer" (among these, "[https://library.brown.edu/ 98,150 Pages digitally scanned and available to users]"), so we're doing just that. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 04:17, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
:Here's a source (via JSTOR) that refers to Beato as: an assistant to James Robertson who later travelled ''independently'' to India, China, etc.
:KHORAKIWALA, ATEYA. “STAGING THE MODERN RUIN: BEATO’S ‘SIKANDER BAGH, LUCKNOW.’” ''Thresholds'', no. 41 (2013): 138–45. <nowiki>http://www.jstor.org/stable/43876508</nowiki>.
:[[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 14:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

===Corpses===
{{U|Hog Farm}}: quotes/says:
:"The photographs were not taken in this order, as the photographs of dead Chinese had to be taken first—before the bodies were removed; only then was Beato free to take the other views of the exterior and interior of the forts" - should this be counterbalanced with the claim earlier in the article that Beato had the bodies dug up to photograph?

I'm not certain that I understand. Hog Farm, are you asking for a recap of what's said about the fakery (disinterral, etc) in the section "Mediterranean, the Crimea and India"? If so, that was about his photography in India, but I don't notice anything in this article about comparable fakery in the Taku forts (China). -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 06:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
: {{ping|Hoary}} - I misread the article. The reference to "(see events at Taku Forts)." right after the description of the fakery made me think that the fakery being described was at the Taku Forts. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 03:16, 20 March 2025 (UTC)
::Beato arrived in India 4 or 5 months after the Rebellion had ended. To capture the events of the battle he 'had to' unearth the skeletal remains to adorn his photo. In China, Beato was with the troops, so he was able to photograph the destruction immediately after the battle. There was fakery involved here, too, but only inasmuch as the British and French dead were removed so that his photograph would only include Chinese dead. There are indications in the photos themselves that some of the bodies were moved/rearranged. [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 17:30, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
::: This discussion inspired me to write ''[[Home of a Rebel Sharpshooter]]'' yesterday - a very clear-cut instance of rearranging the dead. [[User:Hog Farm|Hog Farm]] <sub> ''[[User talk:Hog Farm|talk]]''</sub> 17:46, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

== When "References" don't seem to be referred to (or similar) ==
(A continuation of the 14-year-old thread "[[#Uncited_references|Uncited references]]")

The following half dozen appear in the list of "References", but I don't find any references to them. Am I sleepily missing references? If no I'm not, is there any reason for them to be listed?
*Bennett, Terry. "Felice Beato and the United States Expedition to Korea of 1871"
*Lowry, John. "Victorian Burma by Post..."
*O'Connor, V. C. Scott. ''The Silken East''
*O'Connor, V. C. Scott. ''Mandalay and Other Cities of the Past in Burma'' 
*Peres, Michael R. ''Focal Encyclopedia of Photography.'' 
*Rasch, Carsten. ''Photographien aus dem alten Japan'' 

Specific papers/articles within each of the following three books are cited. For each paper/article, bibliographical details are also provided for the book as a whole. Therefore I don't see why the books (as wholes) additionally have their own entries. OK to delete the following three?
*Banta and Taylor, eds. ''A Timely Encounter''
*Clark, John. ''Japanese Exchanges in Art, 1850s to 1930s''
*''Encyclopedia of Nineteenth-Century Photography.''

The "Citation" that's currently numbered 32 reads "Bennett, 'China', pp. 292–295." Is this Bennett's ''History of Photography in China, 1842–1860''? If so, then rewrite the citation so that it looks more like the "Citation" currently numbered 3. And if no it isn't, then provide the reference.

-- which I wrote at 11:30, 27 March 2025 but oddly forgot to sign. I also notice that I used the imperative for the last item. I hadn't meant the result to sound the way it does. And therefore, take two: ''If so, then I'll rewrite the citation so that it looks more like the "Citation" currently numbered 3. But if no it isn't, then I hope that somebody ({{U|Pinkville}}?) can provide the reference.'' (Of course, {{U|Hog Farm}} or anyone else is most welcome to comment.) -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:12, 28 March 2025 (UTC)