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==Farang==

we heard that "farang" means 'longnose' and was applied to all caucasians. then because of the many french in indochine,
their country 'france' was called 'farangset' = 'land of the longnose'. 
ตาน้ำ (dtaa nam) = spring, natural fountain; mouth of a spring; subterranean course of water--[[User:Scyriacus|Scyriacus]] ([[User talk:Scyriacus|talk]]) 08:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I cannot find it at the moment, but I have read in different places that the word Farang dates back much farther then the 17th century and that it comes from other words. Francais -> Farangset is just a coincidence. I will see if I can find it again. Also kee nok refers more to someone being stinchy. Bird shit is white! Hence it is used more to refer to a white foreigner being stinchy. Thais themselves will say Kee niauw. [[User:Waerth|Waerth]] 13:40, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

''Kee nok'' seems to have a range of meanings; I've updated the article to reflect that. [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 03:18, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

*"Farang ta nam khao" Th: ฝรั่งตาน้ำข้าว) means blue-eyed farang, according to my wife. The Thai language is one that has had trouble distinguishing blue from green. The default word for Blue was recently สีน้ำเงิน literally, the colour of silver, a poetical reference to the silvery sheen of the deep blue sea. It now means Navy Blue, and the default word is now สีฟ้า literally, the colour of the sky, acording to [[Blue]]. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pawyilee|contribs]]) 13:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Origin of Farang ==

When Siam first open its door to trade with Europeans in Ayutthaya period, a land was given to the Portuguese merchants to conduct their business at "Baan Faraang" (Guava Village, these is a common naming conventions of village to name the locale by what ever is in abundance there) Thus the Europeans are referred to as Farangs ever since. I'll put this in to the article if nobody would dispute it.

:Can you give a reference? [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 00:35, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I haven't got anything on my hands at the moment, but if you can read Thai, check out high school history text books, (it's been a while since I've seen one of those) --[[User:Bobbagum|Bobbagum]] 11:14, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:I've added it to the article, giving them as alternative explanations.  I suspect they're both just best guesses.  [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 02:26, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've read somewhere that it's actually derived from the Persian word mentioned here, which is in turn derived from a similar-sounding Arabic word derived from "Frank"(i.e. the Franks).

:There was a discussion back in 1993/1994 in usenet-newsgroup "soc.culture.thai" about ''Origin of the word "Farang"''. That discussion is still available under [http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang1.txt]  and [http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang2.txt]. --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] 11:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

George A. Sioris in his [http://marabu1.tripod.com/SIAM.HTM 1998 article], ''[[Constantine Phaulkon|PHAULKON]], THE GREEK FIRST COUNSELLOR AT THE COURT OF SIAM: AN APPRAISAL'', says <blockquote>1688, Jan - The French soldiers become increasingly unpopular with the Thais due to their display of racist and insolent attitudes. Anti-foreign organizations are born and the religious prejudices of the people are likewise aroused. It should be noted that the term used by Thais until today for western foreigners is farang, an abbreviation of the original farangse - the Thai word for the French (Francais in French). The term farang had a negative connotation until after World War II.</blockquote>
Posted by [[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]]) 19:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


::As the diskussion is still going on, I'd like to cite from my post above  Mr. Gwyn Williams, Department of Linguistics, Faculty of Liberal Arts, Thammasat University what he wrote back in March 1994 in the usenet grout soc.culture.thai:
 
<blockquote>                ORIGIN OF THE WORD "FARANG"     </blockquote>
<blockquote>
 A wide-spread belief in Thailand is that the word "farang" (Caucasian) 
is derived from the French word "francais". This derivation is implausible 
on phonetic and historical grounds. It is in fact a popular misconception. 
It is true, however, that these words have the same ultimate source. 
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
The word is attested in various forms in languages in Europe, Africa, 
the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia. It is clear that the 
word orginated as "Frank" in Europe and spread eastwards along Muslim 
trade routes. 
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
Thai most likely borrowed the word from influential Muslim Persian or
Indian traders in the 17th century or even earlier. The Persian word was 
"farangg". The term probably was used to refer to early Portuguese 
traders and subsequently to all Europeans (ie., non-Muslims). 
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
It is possible that the Thai word "farangset" ("French") is a blend 
of the word "farang" and the French word "francais", ie., "farangset" is
actually derived from "farang", not vice versa. Certainly, the word 
"farang" existed prior to, and independently of, "farangset".
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
 Mr. Gwyn Williams
 Department of Linguistics
 Faculty of Liberal Arts
 Thammasat University                         March 26, 1994
</blockquote>
::If you're interested in the rest of the conversation, it is [http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang1.txt here]  and [http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang2.txt here] --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] ([[User talk:Hdamm|talk]]) 14:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
: I find myself agreeing with both positions: "farang" existed prior to, and independently of, "farangset"; amongst Muslims, the Franks had already given it a bad odor; then the "farangset" in the time of [[Narai]] really made it stink. (Rev. comment) [[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]]) 13:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::PS: Frankly, I'm surprised nothing is said about what it means ''to be perfectly frank''. [[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]]) 13:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[[User:Alanboatman|Alanboatman]] ([[User talk:Alanboatman|talk]]) 10:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)   
I am inclined to believe that Farang is from the persian  'farangi', 'foreigners'and spread eastwards along Muslim 
trade routes.  I also believe that this may have originally come from the old greek 'hoi barrangoi'.  This word refered to ' traders that provide security for their part in the bargain' and refered specifically to Vikings.  Vikings during the 9th and 10th century travelled up the rivers of Eastern Europe both for trade, pirating and mercinary activities to the Black and Caspian Seas.  They were so respected as fiersome warriors (as well as traders) that they were invited to form an elite guard (Palace Guard)for the Basilus of Bysantium in Constantinople.  This was on the grounds that they were less likely to be embroiled in the internal politics of the state and hence trustworthy.  The Swedes refered to themselves as 'Varrangjar' or 'Varrangi' from the greek, while the Danes and Norwegians prefered 'Vikingr'.  Hence the name for the elite troops of Byzantium as the Varangian Guard.  Other persian and arab traders they met and did business with probably also refered to them as 'varangi' or 'farangi'.  Since the Franks looked very similar (ethnically similar) and were the only other 'white northern folk' to be present in the area at the time both the Franks and the Varangjar were probably termed Ferengi - traders (with weapons).

Hence the Malay, Khmer, Thai, Lao, Hindi derivations of the Persian adaption of both Varagis and Franks.[[User:Alanboatman|Alanboatman]] ([[User talk:Alanboatman|talk]]) 09:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

== Maan farang and mhak farang ==

Maan farang (potatoes) and mhak farang (chewing gum) with the word farang refer to something imported. Since there are different Maan (another potato type) and Mhak (chewing stuff) in Thailand before, so when the potatoes and chewing gums were introduced in Thailand, they're assigned the name "farang." - [[User:Manop]]

== literature and films ==

Sounds like an advertisement for Christopher Moore to me? His books are from the perspective of a foreigner living in Thailand. This article is about a Thai word for people like that, not about the people themselves, nor about their perspectives. Any resistance to removing this section? [[User:Maxschmelling|maxsch]] ([[User talk:Maxschmelling|talk]]) 03:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

==Keenok==
ขี้นกสร้อยนกเขาทะเลข้างตะเภา PAINTED SWEETLIPS Diagramma pictum ลักษณะ ทั่วไป : เป็นปลาทะเล ที่มีขนาดค่อนข้างใหญ่ ลำตัวค่อนข้างยาว ด้านบน แบน ข้าง สันหลัง โค้ง นูน ท้องแบน เรียบ ปาก เล็ก มี ริม ปาก หนา มี ฟัน ขนาดเล็ก บน ขากรรไกร ทั้งสอง ข้าง ใต้ คาง มี รูพรุน 6 รู เกล็ด มี ขนาดเล็ก ปกคลุม ตลอด ลำตัว และ หัว สี ลำตัว จะ เปลี่ยนแปลง ไป ตาม ขนาด อายุ ของ ปลา คือ ปลา ขนาดเล็ก ลำตัว มี สี ขาว ส่วนหัว ด้านบน สี เหลือง และ มี แถบ สีน้ำตาล ปน ดำ 5 แถบ พาด ไป ตาม ความ ยาว ลำตัว เมื่อ มี ขนาดใหญ่ ขึ้น แถบ สี จะ จางหาย ไป และ มี จุด สีน้ำตาล ปน ดำปรา กฎ ขึ้นมา แทน และ จุด สี จะ จางหาย ไป เมื่อ ปลา อายุ มากขึ้น ถิ่น อาศัย : อาศัย อยู่ ตาม หน้า ดิน หรือ แนว ปะการัง พบ ทั่วไป บริเวณ ชาย ฝั่งทะเล ทั้ง อ่าวไทย และ ทะเล อัน ดามัน อาหาร : กิน ปลา และ สัตว์น้ำ ที่ อาศัย อยู่ ตาม หน้า ดิน และ แนว ปะการัง ขนาด : ความ ยาว ประมาณ 35-45 ซ. ม. แต่ เคย พบ ว่า บาง ตัว มี ความ ยาว ถึง 60 ซ. ม. ประโยชน์ : เนื้อ ใช้ ปรุงอาหาร

http://www.amonline.net.au/FISHES/fishfacts/fish/dpictum.htm
Painted Sweetlips
Diagramma pictum (Thunberg, 1792)
Painted Sweetlips
Above and below: Painted Sweetlips at a depth of 22 m, Maewo Island, Asanvari Bay, Vanuatu, July 2003. Photo: E. Schlögl. View larger image.
Painted Sweetlips
Photo: E. Schlögl. View larger image.
Painted Sweetlips
A Painted Sweetlips at a depth of 30 m, Maewo Island, Asanvari Bay, Vanuatu, July 2003. Photo: E. Schlögl. View larger image.

Adult Painted Sweetlips are blue-grey with yellow to golden spots on the head, body and fins. The spots on the head often form lines.

It grows to about 1 m in length, but is common to 45 cm.

The species occurs in tropical waters of the Indo-West and Central Pacific. It is found in coastal and sandy reef areas in depths to 80 m.

It is not known from Australian waters.

The Painted Sweetlips feeds on bottom-dwelling invertebrates and small fishes.

The species is related to the Slate Sweetlips (D. labiosum). Another species with yellowish spots is the Gold-spotted Sweetlips.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pawyilee|contribs]]) 16:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== map ==

It would be better if the map only highlighted countries with mostly European-descended citizens. Right now it looks like most farang come from China, but a Chinese person would never be thought of as a farang. [[Special:Contributions/68.160.11.155|68.160.11.155]] ([[User talk:68.160.11.155|talk]]) 16:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

== Interwiki ==

Here's a copy of a discussion from [[User talk:Hdamm#Farang|my talk page]]. --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] ([[User talk:Hdamm|talk]]) 17:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
----
Hello,

I don't understand why you want to change the th interwiki for [[Farang]].[[:th:ชาวตะวันตก]] refers to [[The Westerner]], not [[Farang]]

--[[User:Hercule|Hercule]] ([[User talk:Hercule|talk]]) 14:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

:And what is the difference between "Westerner" and "Farang"? BTW: did you check [[:th:ฝรั่ง]]? This page has nothing to do with those Farang from our article, its just a disambiguation, and deals with Guave, French and France. So why should we link to it? --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] ([[User talk:Hdamm#top|talk]]) 15:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
::[[:th:Farang]] is linked with all other wikis '''Farang''' named articles. Since there is no specific article for the expression, '''ฝรั่ง''' is the best interwiki. It's the page to the name, and show what other acceptations of the word.
::[[The Westerner]] is something else, and the page refers to films, series and newspaper ...
::--[[User:Hercule|Hercule]] ([[User talk:Hercule|talk]]) 15:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Maybe you should read the linked [[:th:ชาวตะวันตก|Thai article]] then? In the first paragraph "ทำไมถึงเรียกว่าตะวันตก" ("Why it is called West") it is written: ... เรา เรียก ชาวตะวันตก ต่อเมื่อ เขา เป็น คน ฝรั่ง เช่น ชาวยุโรป ชาวอเมริกัน ชาว ออสเตรเลีย ล้วน เรียก ว่า ชาวตะวันตก ("we call westeners Farang, for example Europeans, Americans, Australians - all are called westeners"). Thats in short the contents of [[Farang]], not? BTW, it is also linked in [[:th:ฝรั่ง]] (in the last line). --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] ([[User talk:Hdamm#top|talk]]) 15:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Wow, now I know what you mean: the Interwiki link from [[:th:ชาวตะวันตก]] went to [[The Westerner]]. Well, as this Thai article has nothing to do with "The Westerner" but goes about "Inhabitants of the Western World", I changed the Interwiki link accordingly. Sorry for me being so dumb. --[[User:Hdamm|hdamm]] ([[User talk:Hdamm#top|talk]]) 15:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::If you change the th interwiki here, change it also in interwikis of  [[:th:ฝรั่ง]] ([[:de:Farang]], [[:en:Farang]], [[:fr:Farang]],[[:nl:Farang]],[[ru:Фаранг]] and [[wuu:法朗 (泰语)]])), and move [[:th:ฝรั่ง]] interwikis to [[:th:ชาวตะวันตก]] ;) (I don't speak thaï.
:::::Regards --[[User:Hercule|Hercule]] ([[User talk:Hercule|talk]]) 16:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
==Heading: 'Farangs in Thailand'==
Sounds biased, emotional, prejudicial and racist. "Many farangs...marry...ugly women". I'm a white American and I can understand your rage, and thanks for proving whites are not the only people capable of racism--and opposing mixed-raced marriages is racism. In any case this article is for the meaning and origin of the term, not personal viewpoints. I hope this gets fixed.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.119.207.171|69.119.207.171]] ([[User talk:69.119.207.171|talk]]) 05:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== farang khi nok ==

"Farang khi nok" ({{langx|th|ฝรั่งขี้นก}}) ''literally means bird droppings'' only to illiterate foreigners. For a Royal Institute reference to ''a native Thai putting on foreign airs'', as well as for the fruit and the fish — the two being disambiguated with prefixes meaning ''tree'' and ''water-animal'', respectively — see Thai-Language.Com [http://www.thai-language.com/id/209313 ฝรั่งขี้นก.]  This links to ขี้ (''khee'' [Falling tone]) [http://www.thai-language.com/id/133007#def2 definition 2]. ''Khee'' is a generic term for ''waste'' of any kind, including waste of time and wasteful habits. English has such a shitty attitude toward ''shit'' and ''shat'' that neither terms are in my collegiate dictionary, and that biases definitions of ''khee''. For instance, ขี้ใหม่หมาหอม (khee[F] mai[L] maa[R] haawm[R]) derives from a dog's sensible habit of sniffing fresh waste to assess the animal that dropped it, but in humans means to dog fashion (not "A new broom sweeps clean.") --[[User:Pawyilee|Pawyilee]] ([[User talk:Pawyilee|talk]]) 16:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

== per Eteymology and related words ==

Reading the Etymology section on the "Lingua franca" article of wikipedia, I couldnt help but notice there is research pointing to different words in Arabic and Greek. The Etymology sub-section follows:

: ''The original Lingua Franca was a mixed language composed mostly (80%) of Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from Turkish, French, Spanish, Greek and Arabic. It was in use throughout the eastern Mediterranean as the language of commerce and diplomacy in and around the Renaissance era. At that time, Italian speakers dominated seaborne commerce in the port cities of the Ottoman empire. Franca was the Italian word for Frankish. Its usage in the term lingua franca originated from its meaning in Arabic and Greek, dating from before the Crusades and during the Middle Ages, whereby all Western Europeans were called "Franks" or FARANJI in ARABIC and PHRANKOI in GREEK during the times of the late Eastern Roman Empire.[3] The term lingua franca is first recorded in English in 1678.[4]''

Maybe someone would like to add, edit, to make the Farang article more complete ?  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gizziiusa|Gizziiusa]] ([[User talk:Gizziiusa|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gizziiusa|contribs]]) 15:11, 16 July 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

There is no such thing as Indo-Persian only Farsi which was the official language of the cour under Mughals, Turks and Afghans. Thus the word Farangi is a Farsi word which was used for the British among Muslims, particularly Afghans inpresent Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan. Non-Muslims along with some Indian Muslims are still using the old woprd for a white person i.e. Gora. Muslims also used the term Britanvi i.e. British and this label is nowadays used in Urdu for UK citizen.[[User:Moarrikh|Moarrikh]] ([[User talk:Moarrikh|talk]]) 22:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

== pfirangi is not Sanskrit==
clearly,  pfirangi is not Sanskrit. maybe some errors --[[Special:Contributions/223.204.34.195|223.204.34.195]] ([[User talk:223.204.34.195|talk]]) 01:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

== Mostly nonsense ==

I can't speak for the portions that deal with Indian and Maldivian language, but everything about the origins of "farang" in Thai is nonsense.  The real reason the word farang is used to describe white skinned foreigners is because the flesh of a guava (farang) is very blindingly white.  Also this is categorized under "ethnic slurs" but the word is rarely used as a slur and this catgegorization has a lot of foreigners quite upset for no reason, because they believe it is a slur, when in fact light skin is revered in Thailand and light skinned foreigners are usually looked up to, except in those areas where a lot of badly behaved foreigners tend to congregate and sour the opinions of locals toward them (and unfortunately innocent people who do no wrong, guilt by association).  However this is mostly restricted to tourist zones and the Issan region.  It's completely false to think that you are regarded as being inferior in any way due to having light colored skin. There is a slur for foreign people, but it's never used for people that have light skin, just as "farang" should not be used for those with dark skin, because the word does not mean "foreigner". [[User:หมีขั้วโลก|หมีขั้วโลก]] ([[User talk:หมีขั้วโลก|talk]]) 16:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

:Hi [[User:หมีขั้วโลก|หมีขั้วโลก]]. My understanding is that it's not those who coin or use a racial / ethnic epithet who determine whether it's disparaging. Rather, it's the people the epithet is used to describe who decide this. Other epithets not intended to be disparaging were "negro", "Chinaman", and "eskimo". [[User:Mon grain de sel|Mon grain de sel]] ([[User talk:Mon grain de sel|talk]]) 07:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you for the clarification and feedback. I guess you are right about that part, but the article is still having some bias or misinformation on the basis that it attempts to explain the origins of the term from a foreign perspective, and I am guessing the sources mainly based their conclusions on speculation rather than actually consulting the local people about why they used this term (today, probably many local people would not know, and except in places heavily saturated with tourists, would not intentionally use the term in a disparaging way... although they might if a "farang" upset them sufficiently, but even then it would be more the other words accompanying like "stupid" or "crazy" that would be the disparaging part, not the "farang" portion). Japanese people are much more aware of the nature of the term "gaijin", but even they mostly don't intend to insult when using it, and foreigners don't seem to generally be offended by it, even publishing their own magazine called "Gaijin" and referring to themselves as such, even though the term means "foreign devil". So it is interesting if people are offended by "farang" but not "gaijin", when the latter was always intended clearly as an insult, while the former was just intended as a means of reference, because in Thai the word "foreigner" wasn't specific enough.  I still do not view "negro" as a slur unless it is intended to be one, and it should be reasonable to use it in appropriate ways (also banning the word would cause a lot of problems in the Spanish language). Also funny is that Nestle openly uses the word Eskimo as an ice cream brand in Thailand, and I don't think in Thailand there is general awareness that it could potentially be considered a slur. [[User:หมีขั้วโลก|หมีขั้วโลก]] ([[User talk:หมีขั้วโลก|talk]]) 09:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== This article should be re-written. ==

Hello,

This article is simply horrible. There are many useless repetitions, the grammar is not always correct.
Thanks. [[User:Cdrk|Cdrk]] ([[User talk:Cdrk|talk]]) 22:41, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
:[[Wikipedia:Do it yourself|Do it yourself]] [[User:Vallee01|Vallee01]] ([[User talk:Vallee01|talk]]) 03:40, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
::I did it myself, feel free to improve my edits if you would like to, the second section of the Lead article grammar is still broken but I will fix that later or maybe you could. Thanks. [[User:Vallee01|Vallee01]] ([[User talk:Vallee01|talk]]) 05:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

== I will finish later. ==

After a couple of hours of research on google scholar and going to obscure academic site I have found a large amount of information. This article has some pretty big issues, I hope we can fix with more time in common cooperation, there has been fantastic input from different peoples, but its obvious when reading this that large parts of the article has broken grammar. Try to use as extremely direct phrases as possible. "The kingdoms fought" instead "The kingdoms engaged in hostilities".

"Frankish and Muslim relations were broad and diverse, the relationship was somewhat uneasy with many Muslim states waging a counter-crusade or "Jihad" (Holy war in Arabic), against the Crusaders. A large portion of this was not based on religion but instead was based on general territorial disputes. Muslim realms fought wars against each other just as the crusaders.

However there was a general hatred and distrust towards the Crusaders, not due to religious differences, but instead the crusaders had committed a large amount of massacres, and forced conversions against the general population. Even before the Crusader invasion the territories of Syria, Lebanon and Historical Palestine were all majority Christian, with the majority of the Christians belonging to the most common Syriac orthodox church, Armenian church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church, in contrast the Crusaders practiced almost exclusively Catholicism and therefor relations even with Christians was largely unstable."

[[User:Vallee01|Vallee01]] ([[User talk:Vallee01|talk]]) 05:32, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

:First and foremost the scope of the article needs to be agreed upon. It was originally exclusively about the Thai use of the word, but was later edited to add stuff about historical uses in several languages, resulting in the current jumbled mess. I suggest it should be reverted back to the original scope, since the term's notability stems from its uses in Thai society. The etymology can be condensed into a single section. If the Persian or other-language words need to be discussed in-depth, they belong in a separate article. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 15:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

== Should this article exist ==

I have posted a remark about medieval usage of the term Frank [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Franks#The_lede,_and_how_to_handle_the_later_medieval_concept_of_a_Frank here], which mentions this article. It is a strange article. Why does it focus on Persian when the term Frank for western Europeans is used in most languages (including English) when referring to crusaders, and had a lasting effect not only on Persian but also for example on Arabic and Greek. [[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 07:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

== Reverting 2018 hijacking ==

As mentioned two sections above, this article was originally about the Thai term, until it was hijacked by an IP editor [[Special:Diff/856542357|in 2018]]. Unless someone objects, I'm going to revert to the version before that edit. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]]) 09:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
:But I think that raises the question of why WP should have an article about a Thai word.--[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 21:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
::Please do not revert without establishing consensus. The section titled "Southeast Asia" has the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Farang&oldid=841194978 pre 2018-content] as far as I can tell. The lead could make it more clear that "farang" as a Persian word is not in use, but its descendants are. It would also be useful to have more sub-sections. Rather then just "South Asia" and "Southeast Asia", break it down by country or cultural region or simply by language. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%86%DA%AF#Descendants Wiktionary] lists its decedents and each could be more prominently mentioned in the lead. [[User:Richard-of-Earth|Richard-of-Earth]] ([[User talk:Richard-of-Earth|talk]]) 20:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
:::In reply to [[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]], the answer would be that the term in the Thai context is a well established one, with a significant cultural aspect to it, and is covered in numerous publications. As for [[User:Richard-of-Earth|Richard-of-Earth]]'s concerns, achieving consensus is what I'm hoping for with this discussion. The Thai term is the primary topic, by a large margin, for any use of the word ''farang'', and the connection to the Persian term and its other derivatives is weak and poorly established. The persian word would be much better covered as a separate topic, if at all. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]]) 05:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
::::Generally speaking, Wikipedia would not normally have separate articles for specific word etymologies, no matter how we established. (That would be for wiktionary.) I also don't see any "significant cultural aspect" which goes much further than the etymological one? And the etymological story only seems a tiny bit notable if it is connected to words in other languages? In short, I still don't really see any justification for this article's existence.  --[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 07:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
:I would agree that the Thai word should be the primary subject. The Persian word is archaic and Thai word is not. I simply feel that reverting to the 2018 version would be deleting sourced content just because you do not like it. You are welcome to rewrite the lead, making it shorter, presenting it as a Thai word but should include that the word derives from the archaic Persian word and that it has [[Doublet (linguistics)|doublet]]s in other languages. The section currently titled "Name" should be "Etymology" and then a section about its use in Thai culture followed by sections about its doublets and their use in other cultures. I understand that might seem like a bunch of work, but if your not willing to do it, then it should stay as it is. As for deleting the article, I would be neutral. I have never understood what makes a word significant enough to warrant an article. Per [[WP:WORDISSUBJECT]], apparently you just need citations and a little more than what would be found in a dictionary. [[User:Richard-of-Earth|Richard-of-Earth]] ([[User talk:Richard-of-Earth|talk]]) 08:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks for the comments. I'll consider a more substantial clean-up effort if/when I have time. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]]) 01:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

== Pronunciation (faranj?) ==

Is the final sound a g, like in wing, or a j/dj, like in ridge? The Arabic franj certainly ends in a j (2nd option), and I'm pretty sure the Arabic and Persian terms were closely related. [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 09:20, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

== Arabic before Persian? Title change. ==

{{u|Vallee01}}, {{u|Andrew Lancaster}}, {{u|Richard-of-Earth}}, {{u|Paul 012}}, {{u|Lghannam}}, {{u|Janan2025}}, hi. We should treat this topic separately and with care, as it goes to the very definition of the article: '''what are we talking about here?'''

If this is a term that was propagated from the Middle East (that Persian came before Arabic, I still need to be convinced), and all the way to SE Asia and everything in between, plus the Horn of Africa, with a simple, 3- or 4-step semantic evolution, then it is of huge notability and definitely belongs on enWiki.

A note re. Arabic: that Iberian (Andalus) Arabic eventually became aware of the actual name of France in French is one thing, but MENA Arabic dialects were a different thing altogether, and to the best of my knowledge they stayed with ''franj'' for Westerners (and apparently didn't have or feel the need for a different word for Frenchmen for centuries after the Crusades). Because OR isn't allowed, see for instance here: "According to Abū al-Makārim, writing c. 1200, Nubians (''Nūbah'') even shared a sacred space with other groups – Greeks (''Rūm''), '''Franks (''Faranj'')''', and Ethiopians (''Ḥabasha'') – whose envoys would be received at the court in Cairo..." (Adam Simmons, [https://irep.ntu.ac.uk/id/eprint/42834/1/1437004_Simmons.pdf "A Note towards Quantifying the Medieval Nubian Diaspora"], in ''Dotawo: A Journal of Nubian Studies'' 6(1), UC Santa Barbara 2019, {{DOI |10.5070/D66146250}}, Permalink: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/8908w6s5).

And on the less-than-RS side of things, here is [https://www.lonelyplanet.com/jordan/kings-highway/karak/attractions/karak-castle/a/poi-sig/1505472/361077 Lonely Planet] about Karak Castle: "To the west is the village of Al Shabiya, which was once called Al Ifranj because many Crusaders (Franks) settled here after the fall of the castle." The 1979 map of the Royal Jordanian Geogr. Centre with the Dept. of Antiquities, so RS, has it as '''el-Franj'''. The wadi and a spring there are also known by this name, see "Ain Frandjy" in 19th-c. descriptions ("There is a sizable village at Ain Frandjy today (el-Franj [#201])", J. Maxwell Miller, "Burckhardt-Robinson Features in Nineteenth-Century Maps of the Kerak Plateau", in ''The Archaeology of Jordan and Beyond'', pp. 351–366, DOI: 10.1163/9789004369801_038). Or re. the Ajlun area one reads: "If the village of '''Kafrinjī''' on the opposite side of the valley was really inhabited by Franks as its name suggests ('''Kafr al-Franj''');..." (Johns, C. N. (Cedric Norman), [https://tpsalomonreinach.mom.fr/Reinach/MOM_TP_071832/MOM_TP_071832_0004/PDF/MOM_TP_071832_0004.pdf ''Medieval 'Ajlūn'', I. ''The Castle (Qal‘at ar-Rabaḍ)''], in: QDAP 1 (1932). pp. 21-33 (see p. 29), reprint in: Pilgrim’s Castle (‘Atlit), David’s Tower (Jerusalem) and Qal‘at ar-Rabad (‘Ajlun): Three Middle Eastern Castles from the Time of the Crusades, ed. Denys Pringle, Aldershot 1997, no. VII). Or Ouâdi el Franj and the [[Khan al-Franj]] in Lebanon (the latter "received its modern name, which translates as "Caravansary of the Franks", from its French mercantile occupants in the 17th c."), another Khan el-Franj in [[Acre, Israel]], similarly built in the mid-16th century by French merchants in the formere Venetian quarter, the [[Elfrange Synagogue|Al-Franj Synagogue]] in Damascus used by Jews who fled al-Andalus, etc. 

There's no question that the term persisted in Levantine Arabic, and not just for medieval Crusaders, but even for 17th-c. Frenchmen.

That's how I found this page, while looking for wikilinks for this Arabic term for Westerners. But that also means that Franj should get more attention here, '''preferably modifying the article's title to "Franj, Farang"''' or the other way round if it seems plausible that the Persians came up with the term before the Arabs, which I think is illogical. Btw, I see absolutely no problem with having a title like "Franj, Farang". [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 12:50, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

:On what came first, Arabic or Persian: There was a very important edit [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Farang&diff=prev&oldid=1094441941 here], but unfortunately by smb anonymous. The source is very important, as it looks RS and addresses the topic head-on. But the ref was sloppily and the book author himself was sloppy, too.
:Now we have:
:;Arabic
::The [[Persian language |Persian]] word ''[[Franks#Legacy| farang]]'' ... refers to [[Franks]], the major [[Germanic peoples| Germanic]] tribe ruling [[Western Europe]]. ''[[Frangistan]]'' ... was a term used by Easterners from the Muslim world and [[Persian people| Persians]] in particular, during the [[Middle Ages]] and later periods, to refer to [[Western Christianity |Western or Latin Europe]]. According to [[Rashid-al-Din Hamadani]], the [[Arabic language |Arabic]] word "Afranj" comes from the Persian "Farang".<nowiki><ref>{{ill|Karl Jahn|de|
:Karl Jahn (Orientalist)}} (ed.) ''Histoire universelle de Rashid al-Din fadl Allah Abul-Khair'': "I. Histoire des Francs (Texte Persan avec traduction et annotations)", Leiden, E. J. Brill, 1951. (Source: M. Ashtiany)</ref></nowiki> This seems unlikely though, considering that the Arabic "Afranj" (also "Faranj" or "Ifranj") has been attested since the 9th century in the works of [[al-Jahiz]] (c. 776–868/869), over a century before "Farang" was first used in an anonymous late-10th-century Persian geography book,<nowiki><ref>{{Cite book |last= Dabashi |first= Hamid |author-link= Hamid Dabashi |title= Reversing the Colonial Gaze: Persian Travelers Abroad |year= 2020 |publisher= Cambridge University Press |page= 68 |quote= The earliest source in which the word farang appears in Persian is actually by the anonymous author of ''Hudud al-'Alam/Boundaries of the World'' from the tenth century, and even before in Arabic in the works of Al-Jahiz (776–869), as in the expression "King of Farang" or the region of "Farang." |isbn= 9781108488129 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=DW7CDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA68 |access-date= 2 April 2025}}</ref></nowiki> suggesting that the Persian "Farang" is a loan from Arabic. By the 11th century, Arabic texts were increasingly using the term "Faransa" or "al-Faransiyah" for France, already attested in the work of [[Said al-Andalusi]] in the mid-11th century.{{cn |date= April 2025}}
:N.b.: the initial edit added a 2nd 9th-c. Arabic author, writing "in the works of [[al-Jahiz]] and '''[[Ya'qubi]]'''". I checked and Ya'qubi isn't mentioned anywhere in Dabashi's text, so I had to remove him. Which is a pity, given that the editor, sloppy as he was, seems to know the matter well. Maybe it relies on the other source, the 1951 book edited by Karl Jahn? That one isn't online. Ya'qubi (died 897/8) would be a notable addition.
:Also, Dabashi himself is quite sloppy, among other things it's unclear if he means to say that the earliest Arabic sourse used "farang" with g rather than an Arabic form with j (altogether a topic not dealt with here, see my question in section here-above), or he just didn't care about the difference (are there different Arabic/Persian alphabet signs for g and j?). He also indicates "faranj" as the Arabic term, with two vowels, and (at least since the 19th c., which is all I know) Levantine Arabic uses "franj" , with one vowel. Is he Persianising? He's Iranian, so probably influenced by Persian in reading abjads. He continues with "The Franks itself could refer to the medieval Germanic people ...", which is nonsensical/poorly edited (likely meant: "The term "Franks" itself could refer to...").
:This is the context, now let's use what we have - '''Dabashi presents a very interesting comment on the actual meaning and historical evolution of farang/franj''' on pp. [https://books.google.com/books?id=DW7CDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA68 68]-70, a must-read and a base for thoroughly rewriting our article's definition and more. But at least one more source would be needed, by matter of principle and for the mentioned reasons re. Dabashi. [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 13:53, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
::{{re|Arminden}} word histories might be notable in a sense, but explicitly not in the way which counts on Wikipedia. See [[WP:NOTDICTIONARY]]. Should we have histories for every such case of a word which spread a lot from one language to others? (In any case, as the "Name of the Franks" has its own article whatever is especially interesting can be mentioned there.) Secondly, OTOH I don't see what is so important about whether Persian or Arabic was first and indeed I can't understand your focus on these two languages. What about Greek and Aramaic? --[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 15:20, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
:::Hi. I honestly cannot tell: Are you serious, or are you trying to pull my leg (April 1+1)?
:::#Not the etymology is notable, but the term. The etymology is part of any good article, but it isn't the main focus.
:::#The term went from Germanic, maybe via French or other European languages, into Arabic & Persian, and from there it moved on and on. What do Greek and Aramaic have to do with anything here?
:::That the term is at least ad notable as more than half of all those dealt with in Wiki article is visible from the fact that it's been in use for many centuries in much if not the entire Muslim world plus much of the rest of Asia, and it is used for what has been the leading civilisation since at least the Renaissance, i.e. the Western world. Any doubts about notability? Of what, of the Wikipedia project maybe?
:::I think I offered you my opinion re. the "Name of the Franks" article ([[Talk:Name of the Franks#Meaning of "West European" not well grounded here]]):
:::A) I don't think that art. is properly named.
:::B) It deals, or is meant to deal (see title) with the Franks and the evolution and expansion of that term within Europe. Whereas this here is a "view from outside". Please read pp. 68-70 in Dabashi's book: it's a Levantine concept with its own evolution, based on the perception of "the other" regarding the Western Christian civilisation (geographically northern & western, as seen from the Muslim world). This is very far from the stem of meanings from Germanic tribes, to the realms east & west of the Rhine and the peoples who were formed & developed there. It's a bit like the term "Indian" in Western languages - not just actual Indians, but Amerindians/Indios, East Indies, West Indies and the lot. After the possible initial misunderstanding or "term for all exotic peoples", there is a whole autonomous evolution of a completely independant term. It would never fit on a page about the names (endonyms & exonyms) for peoples from the Indian subcontinent. Same here.
:::E basta, I said all there is to say, all else would be worthless repetition. [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 18:19, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
:Regarding the main issue of "what are we talking about here?", I think at this point this article needs to be split, with [[Farang]] covering the Thai term and reverted to the pre-2018 version, and the bulk of evolution and regional spread split to another, with a clearer title. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]]) 04:10, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
::::Can anyone give an example of having different articles on Wikipedia for different versions of a word borrowed into different languages? This discussion seems confused to me. The Name of the Franks article is clearly about the name, not the people? The expansion of the term to include Western Europeans generally can be found in terms like "lingua franca", which is not from another culture. Non Western Europeans seeing Western Europeans as foreign is not really notable and did not lead to them calling other foreign peoples Franks. I don't see the point of comparing to the term "Indian". --[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 04:40, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::It's entirely natural to have separate articles where terms from the same origin diverge in meaning to mean specific things in the local culture. Consider [[Anime]] vs [[Animation]]. Or [[Mandala]] becoming adopted for the historical Thai administrative unit [[Monthon]] and the academic term [[Mandala (political model)]] in historical political geography. The Thai word ''farang'' has its own cultural significance that is entirely distinct from what the its global and regional evolution may be. --[[User:Paul_012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul_012|talk]]) 06:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Arminden}} looking at your edits many are pushing the idea that this is a specifically moslem term. I don't think it was ever specifically moslem as the same term was found in European languages, including Greek, which was not itself "Frankish". It all feels very stretched, like we are searching for something notable about this one specific word borrowing example. I can't see anything specifically special about the borrowing in Arabic or Persian or Thai except that these are relatively big languages that influenced others (as did Greek). But the same could be said for thousands of terms.--[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 05:45, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Andrew Lancaster}}, hi. As I said, from now on it's likely to be all just useless repetition, especially if one doesn't address any of the counter-arguments.
:::::#Did you read pp. 68-70 in Dabashi's book to understand the meaning and evolution of the Muslim term?
:::::#Do you intend to react to the problem raised by the name & content of the [[Name of the Franks]] article?
:::::Until you do, we're wasting our time here.
:::::I would never object to combining the content here into a larger article about "concepts & terms derived from the ethnonym "Franks"" (reformulate that if you can), including the Frankokratia of the Greeks as one phenomenon, the Arabic & Persian Franj/Farang in the Muslim world as another (yes, read Dabashi, or a number of other authors), and the "slang-and-slur" in Thailand as a 3rd, and maybe with more, related or not, which haven't shown up here yet.
:::::Ignore all that and we won't be getting anywhere.
:::::I wouldn't mind a clearer separation between the term used in the Muslim world and other uses, because it simply denotes something else than the Thai term, and even the Greek. But a wholly new article would go too far. There are 2 important aspects here: the origin in the Western term, and the evolution into something else. I'm focusing on what meaning the derived terms took, while Andrew Lancaster is focusing on  the commonalities. These 2 approaces are by no means irreconcilable, but it requires work - and the will to enter a discussion and react to arguments, not to simply repeat one's own. [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 09:31, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::Maybe clearer: I have no problem with a reworked mega-article based on the current "[[Name of the Franks]]", but under a corrected new title along the lines of "The terms "Franks", "Frankish" and their derivates" containing this art. here as well. Or two interconnected articles (interconnected by the usual means of cross-referencing, i.e. tags at the top of articles & sections, and numerous redirects), one dealing with the term relating to the actual Franks and the peoples and states who were directly named after them; and the wider development of the term, from the initial Mediterranean "lingua franca", which was neither Germanic like the Franks, nor based on Old French, but primarily non-French Romance; and all the way to "guava", "blond" or "French chicken" for turkey in SE Asia. But the different, separate concepts, such as that established by Muslims around the 9th c. of non-Muslims from the N & W, shouldn't be thrown together with colonial-era blondes, turkeys and guavas. There is more than a nuance separating them. Btw, [[Turkey (bird)| turkey]] as "Turkish fowl", as in exotic bird, has its own article, separate from [[Turkey]]. [[User:Arminden|Arminden]] ([[User talk:Arminden|talk]]) 10:11, 3 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::You are right that I am focussing on commonalities (because I think they are pretty big) and that making articles which do this takes a little bit of work. I also think it can lead to a better article for readers and editors. So is your main concern with the other article ([[Name of the Franks]]) is only the title? Srnec proposed an article called Frank (term). As I mentioned already there, the original proposal for that article was by [[user:Srnec]] proposed an article called [[Frank (term)]]. I don't really have a big problem with that, especially if it gets a bigger scope. To be clear, I didn't choose the current name, which I guess is copied off of [[Name of the Goths]]. The proposal of Srnec seems more consistent with WP MOS advice. To be clear I also propose removing some parts of that article, such as the geographical terms.--[[User:Andrew Lancaster|Andrew Lancaster]] ([[User talk:Andrew Lancaster|talk]]) 16:00, 3 April 2025 (UTC)