View source for Talk:Elam

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* [[Talk:Elam/Archive 1|Archive 1]] <small>(March 2005–May 2008)</small>
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==Untitled==
Did the Elamites sacrifice animals to their gods? I'm interested in learning about religions that never involved the practice of such a disgusting act. [[Special:Contributions/2601:98A:480:C080:D437:717C:7C77:44E5|2601:98A:480:C080:D437:717C:7C77:44E5]] ([[User talk:2601:98A:480:C080:D437:717C:7C77:44E5|talk]]) 04:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

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==Needs some more pictures==
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/08/iran-archaeology/iran-photography shows a picture of tower built by Elamites.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.38.144.241|72.38.144.241]] ([[User talk:72.38.144.241|talk]]) 22:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Archaeological evidence==
“Archaeological evidence associated with Elam has been dated to before 5000 BCE” with 7 citations of '''unreliable''' sources next to it. I suggest reading the [[WP:RS]] page!--[[User:Xevorim|Xevorim]] ([[User talk:Xevorim|talk]]) 01:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

:Well, there certainly was no "Elam" by today's standards of the term in 5000 BCE ... or Sumer, for that matter. [[User:HammerFilmFan|HammerFilmFan]] ([[User talk:HammerFilmFan|talk]]) 14:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan
:Needs improving, [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mc4cfzkRVj4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Elam&hl=en&ei=NFkrTMfKKqSTsQbg1vXEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=3000&f=false] is a good source. [[Susa]] ir proto-Elamite and very old, see [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-H229WeFQwwC&pg=PP19&dq=Susa+dated&hl=en&ei=z1krTMq-M4SqsQal6uDEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Susa%20dated&f=false]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 14:53, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

== Scribal Error in the Bible? ==

I wonder if anyone has considered the possibility that 'Elam' (  אלים  ), of the Bible, was mistranslated as 'Elim' ( אלאם  ).  This would certainly make more sense.  
'[[Elim]]' is said to have been one of the places that the Israelites camped, following their Exodus out of Egypt.  Additionally, it has been suggested that the word 'Elim' has Semetic roots, and it's location was between lands of Semetic speaking peoples.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment Autosigned by SineBot </span></small>
:This is not the place for personal (crazy) theories, nor a Forum to discuss the subject.  The Talk Pages are for the discussion of Reliable Sources for the betterment of the article.[[User:HammerFilmFan|HammerFilmFan]] ([[User talk:HammerFilmFan|talk]]) 21:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The only crazy theory I see coming, is your refutal of something very logical, which i have stated.

::We don't add statements to articles on the basis of someone's logic but on the basis of what sources that meet our criteria at [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:VERIFY]] say about a subject. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 16:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

It is relevant to the article, if someone were to find more information on it.  I know in Hebrew, the worm Elim, and ELam are off by one letter. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:142.196.80.82|142.196.80.82]] ([[User talk:142.196.80.82|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.196.80.82|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:The word Olam, "world" is off by one letter too.  This doesn't mean or prove anything significant, unless perhaps you get a reliable source discussing such a connection, as others have explained here.  Please also read [[WP:OR]], our cornerstone policy forbidding "Original Research" on this wiki. [[User:Til Eulenspiegel|Til Eulenspiegel]] /[[User talk:Til Eulenspiegel|talk]]/ 14:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

== Iranian, Syrian infuence, ancient Vedic colony - really?  ==

*Neo-Elamite period: c. 1100 BC – 539 BC (characterized by Iranian and Syrian influence. 539 BC marks the beginning of the Achaemenid period)

instead of "Assyrian and Median influence" - really?

And perhaps Elam may have been an ancient Vedic colony.<ref> Gods, sages and kings: Vedic secrets of ancient civilization By David Frawley, p 274</ref>

Really? [[User:Til Eulenspiegel|Til Eulenspiegel]] ([[User talk:Til Eulenspiegel|talk]]) 15:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

:The user Onef9day is a vandal, pov pusher of the worst sort. The user should be blocked permanently.--[[User:Wangond|Wangond]] ([[User talk:Wangond|talk]]) 19:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

== Matriarchy? ==

Why is this article in the Matriarchy category?  There is no mention of a matriarchy within the article itself but it is mentioned under ''See Also'' and also the category. [[User:Robert Brockway|Robert Brockway]] ([[User talk:Robert Brockway|talk]]) 02:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

== Tamil ==

"note: that in Tamil (south Indian language spoken in the state of Tamil Nadu) the meaning for Elam is home or mother land"
<br />Removed from 'Legacy'. This would seem to be a false friend, and besides it's unreferenced. [[User:Hyarmendacil|Hyarmendacil]] ([[User talk:Hyarmendacil|talk]]) 03:27, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
:Good move. This constant attempt to tie the Indus River Civilization to Tamil/languages and Elam gets tiresome and needs to be watched out for. [[User:HammerFilmFan|HammerFilmFan]] ([[User talk:HammerFilmFan|talk]]) 21:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

== Removed from the religion section ==

I'm moving this text from the religion section of the article to this page, as it has no source. The suggestion that there's link between a place called Susha in the Vedas and the Puranas and the city of Susa in Elam looks like synthesis. Some scholars may have argued that this connection exists, but this kind of claim seems guaranteed to be disputed by somebody.

:"There is a mention of Susha as a beautiful city of ''[[Varuna]]'' in ''[[Matsya Purana]]''. Moreover, in [[Rig Veda]] it is mentioned that Sage [[Vasishta]] visited by sea a great thousand gated temple of ''Varuna'' (called Susha). Some scholars believe that there was a cultural and religious exchange between Elam and India."

[[User:A. Parrot|A. Parrot]] ([[User talk:A. Parrot|talk]]) 03:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

== "Womens Rights" ==

The section on Women's rights seems very out of place in this article, not to mention the nonstandard orthography in the section title. I would suggest its removal but I don't feel it's appropriate to do so myself. [[User:Qartar|Qartar]] ([[User talk:Qartar|talk]]) 07:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:It's bad, but I've found a source for a rewrite[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tLRem_ixfcEC&pg=PA14&dq=Elam+women&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xIjeUbnqHMa90QXV_4CQCw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Elam%20women&f=false] but I don't have the time. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 10:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this section it is out of place because it talks solely about the "general" status of women in "Mesopotamian societies" overall without saying anything at all specific to Elam. [[Special:Contributions/50.193.233.25|50.193.233.25]] ([[User talk:50.193.233.25|talk]]) 19:14, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

== Elam is almost always considered part of Mesopotamia. ==

I removed the reference , 'being east of Mesopotamia'.  The more widely used, though not literal, definition of mesopotamia includes sw iran.  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:882:100:D7B0:94DC:7D4B:3A08:FCC6|2601:882:100:D7B0:94DC:7D4B:3A08:FCC6]] ([[User talk:2601:882:100:D7B0:94DC:7D4B:3A08:FCC6|talk]]) 14:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:According to whom? Every historical atlas I own specifically excludes it.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/50.111.27.4|50.111.27.4]] ([[User talk:50.111.27.4#top|talk]]) 01:39, 5 April 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::: according to geography. Elam may be in present day Iran, but its geographical range is Mesopotamia. The Iranian plateau does not include the area west of the zagros mountains [[User:Childrenofnoah|Childrenofnoah]] ([[User talk:Childrenofnoah|talk]]) 08:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
::::Wiki runs on Reliable Sources, not OR or editors' opinions - need a scholarly source to support this.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/50.111.34.67|50.111.34.67]] ([[User talk:50.111.34.67#top|talk]]) 02:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Women in Elam ==

The first line in the "Women in Elam" section reads: "At times, Elam was matriarchal society, thus women leading over men and all society. [sic]"  That is almost certainly not the case, as the question of whether there has ever been a true matriarchy is, at best, highly debatable, as wikipedia's own referenced article on matriarchal religions attests.  Was this odd sentence inserted to make the article compatible in the "matriarchy" category?  And can anyone modify it to more accurately reflect the true state of affairs between the sexes in Elamite society?  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shrinkydink07|Shrinkydink07]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydink07|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shrinkydink07|contribs]]) 08:29, 12 June 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->[[User:Shrinkydink07|Shrinkydink07]] ([[User talk:Shrinkydink07|talk]]) 08:41, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

:I've removed it. If you look above you can see that the section can be sourced but I never got around to it. As for matriarchy, besides the source I mention above, see [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Jxd2Zr9Ilw8C&pg=PA48&dq=elam+matriarchal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZg_CkqKLNAhXLAxoKHepoD4EQ6AEIOzAG#v=onepage&q=elam%20matriarchal&f=false] and [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mc4cfzkRVj4C&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=elam+matriarchal&source=bl&ots=iypcDX1XzF&sig=kFsRW8L8YQ_c7R2YA0TJ8enDjtY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs65f9p6LNAhVEtxoKHRlEC20Q6AEIOjAE#v=onepage&q=%20matriarchy&f=false] which cast doubt upon the possibility. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 11:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

== Red links ==

there are a lot of red hyperlink on your page that go no where. they are easily removed if you don't want to add page describing the hyperlinked item.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wikiprojectgroup2|Wikiprojectgroup2]] ([[User talk:Wikiprojectgroup2#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Wikiprojectgroup2|contribs]]) 21:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Suggestions 11/28/17 ==

This page is well-written and has a lot of good information. The "Religion" section is a bit thin, though. Could you expand it by discussing deities represented in art? Some of the etymology in the overview might also be better if moved to the "Etymology" section.
[[User:SarahMRedman|SarahMRedman]] ([[User talk:SarahMRedman|talk]]) 22:49, 28 November 2017 (UTC)Sarah Redman

== Suggestions 11/28/17 ==

 The whole page is really well done! As I was looking through the images you have on the side bar, perhaps you could describe them / give the dates / what they are made of in the little description box that it has? - [[User:Wingerterka|wingerterka]]  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 23:08, 28 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Suggestions 11/28/17 ==

I think you could add where the statue of Napir- Asu resides.  Also if you could find information on how the statue came to be in the Louvre, that would be interesting.  

[[User:Martinhawk|Martinhawk]] ([[User talk:Martinhawk|talk]]) 22:49, 28 November 2017

== Suggestions 11/28/2017 ==

This looks great! In the 'Gold/Silver Statuettes' section, it might be nice to add one of the silver votive statues, so we can compare the two. The 'Gold' figure could use more description as well (under the image). Is there enough information on this object fill this in? Is there another image you could replace it with, that may have more information?

[[User:Rmxn|Rmxn]] ([[User talk:Rmxn|talk]]) 01:44, 29 November 2017

== suggestions 11/28/17 ==

Looks really nice! Nicely outlined, I like the Timeline of Elam GIF. Having the silver statuette and potentially having a little more information on the religion would be nice, but I understand that there's little information about it.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hawkeye2020|Hawkeye2020]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye2020#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hawkeye2020|contribs]]) 04:09, 29 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Comment Nov. 29, 2017 ==

I enjoy the variety of images that are present on the page overall, though there are some sections that could use an illustration such as the "Stele of Untash Napirisha" section or the "Neo-Elamite III" period. It may be the case that there are there simply no appropriate images available for that piece or that time period, but I thought I would comment on it.

Also, I'm noticing that a lot of names and peoples in the history section are shown in red because there are no pages to link to for those peoples. In terms of page coding, there are inter-wiki links being made, but I think that the absence of destination pages just makes the amount of red terms seem out of place. Unless they are being marked so that users will know that pages should be made for these peoples, I think some of these pseudo-links could probably be taken out of the main text.
[[User:Asnders|Asnders]] ([[User talk:Asnders|talk]]) 06:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050308174927/http://www.cappuccinomag.com/iranologyenglish/001141.shtml to http://www.cappuccinomag.com/iranologyenglish/001141.shtml

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== Matriarchal religion? ==

The Religion section has a "main article" link to [[Matriarchal religion]], and there a see-also link to the same article at the bottom. That linked article makes absolutely no mention of Elam, or even the broader middle east, so it's not at all helpful, and potentially misleading.

Also, most of the body consists of a cherry-picked quote that misrepresents its source to imply that Elam followed a Graves-style matriarchal religion focused on Kiririsha, which definitely isn't true.

It would be great if someone with more knowledge could write a proper religion section. All I was able to write is a stub, based on the information elsewhere in this article, in the already-linked articles on Elamite deities, and in the existing (web-available) external sources. --[[Special:Contributions/157.131.246.136|157.131.246.136]] ([[User talk:157.131.246.136|talk]]) 20:35, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

:PS, someone should check my coding of the references, since I don't know the templates all that well. I was mostly just copying and pasting references from elsewhere on the page and from other pages, but I still had to provide one first-cite and new rp templates and so on, and, while it all looks right (and links right) I may well have done something wrong. --[[Special:Contributions/157.131.246.136|157.131.246.136]] ([[User talk:157.131.246.136|talk]]) 20:37, 1 June 2019 (UTC)