View source for Talk:Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|1=
{{WikiProject Roman Curia|importance=Top}}
{{WikiProject Catholicism|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject European Microstates|Vatican City=yes|Vatican City-importance=mid|category=}}
}}
{{Old move |date=5 June 2022 |from=Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith|destination=Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith|result=Speedy  moved|link=Special:Permalink/1092019707}}
{{Archives |bot=lowercase sigmabot III |age=180 |search=yes }}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 55K
|counter = 1
|minthreadsleft = 6
|algo = old(180d)
|archive = Talk:Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith/Archive %(counter)d
}}

== Archive of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ==

I do agree that this article should be merged. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is clearly the direct descendant of the Roman Inquisition. One must also consider the Holy Office, as it was called between 1908 and 1966.

I have added an article on the ''archive'' of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Whilst it is at present only open until 1903 (and I do not believe it will be opened further even in the long term), the fact that much information has come out of the record between 1542 and 1902 should certainly warrant an article under the title above.

== Question ==

:Among the most known punished priests are [[Maciel]],..

That link goes to a disambiguation page. The only likely candidate on that page is [[Antônio Conselheiro]]. I do not know the background well enough to confirm that this is the intended reference. That page does give some indication of disagreement with the formal religious organisation, but does not give sufficient detail to confirm that this is the person who fell foul of what would at that time have been the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Can someone who knows the original intent review the link in question and if appropriate replace the link to the disambig page with a direct reference?--[[User:Shoka|Shoka]] 16:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
:Fixed. -- [[User:Cat Whisperer|Cat Whisperer]] 16:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks.  Cannot get a reference to a sub-sub section to work. 
There is a reasonable discussion of [[Heresy in the 20th century#Heresy in the Catholic church|Fr Tissa Balasuriya (Sri Lanka)]] to fix the next redlink, but I can't make a link to that sub sub section work. Help appreciated.--[[User:Shoka|Shoka]] 16:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[[Robert_Nugent_Lynch]] looks like a candidate for the next redlink. Again confirm or deny?--[[User:Shoka|Shoka]] 17:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
:Different Nugent.  The section on Balasuriya is a bullet, not a sub-sub-section, so there is no way to link to it directly without changing the target article [[Heresy in the 20th century]] to use triple equals "<nowiki>===</nowiki>" instead of bullet "<nowiki>*</nowiki>". -- [[User:Cat Whisperer|Cat Whisperer]] 17:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


Catholic Country does not point to a definition of a catholic country but to a list of countries by catholic population.  I was expecting a definition. What was that?  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/205.255.224.10|205.255.224.10]] ([[User talk:205.255.224.10#top|talk]]) 22:18, 25 January 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Need a separate article on just what the dickens a [[Notification from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] is ==

There are lots of articles in Wikipedia which reference a [[Notification from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] (without the wikilink), as if the rest of the world would know what that is. Could somebody with more competence in Roman doctrine please do us the honor of explaining; and then maybe throw in a handful of wikilinks where they would do the most good, including in this article itself? --[[User:Orangemike|<span style="color:darkorange;">Orange Mike</span>]] &#x007C; [[User talk:Orangemike|<span style="color:orange;">Talk</span>]] 19:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

: I have definined "notification" on this page.  I don't think that a separate article is needed. &mdash; <span style="font: small-caps 12px times;">[[User:Lawrence King|Lawrence King]]</span> <sup style="font: small-caps 10px arial; color: #129dbc;">([[User talk:Lawrence King|<span style="color: #129dbc;">talk</span>]])</sup> 01:02, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

==Dispute about transition date (July 1 versus July 2)==
Catholic Hierarchy confirms Ferrer took over on July 1.  As shown here.[http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bladaria.html] [[Special:Contributions/2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9|2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9]] ([[User talk:2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9|talk]]) 14:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)  Also confirms that Muller resigned the same day as well.[http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bmullergl.html][[Special:Contributions/2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9|2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9]] ([[User talk:2601:447:4101:B820:24FC:35F0:61FB:2CB9|talk]]) 14:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

*Catholic Hierarchy is not a valid source. It is the unedited work of a single person. [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 18:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Bmclaughlin9 is absolutely correct that Catholic-hierarchy.org is not a reputable source.

Müller's term was scheduled to end on July 2.  On July 1, the pope informed Müller that his term would not be renewed. No source suggests that there was a firing or resignation on July 1 which took effect immediately.

* [https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpress.vatican.va%2Fcontent%2Fsalastampa%2Fit%2Fbollettino%2Fpubblico%2F2017%2F07%2F01%2F0465%2F01042.html&edit-text=&act=url] says Müller is leaving "at the end of his five year mandate", and Ladaria has been "called to succeed him."  
* [https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.clarin.com%2Fmundo%2Fpapa-analiza-cambios-cupula-iglesia-abrir-etapa-renovacion_0_rkZeATqX-.html&edit-text=&act=url]  Pope is "taking advantage of" the July 2 term ending.
* [https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pnp.de%2Fnachrichten%2Fbayern%2F2571277_Nach-Entlassung-Kardinal-Mueller-attackiert-Papst-Franziskus.html&edit-text=&act=url] Pope Francis "informed Müller ... of his decision not to extend the mandate."  Later, Müller talked to Meisner "about the non-prolongation of his previous office".

I don't endorse every statement in these articles; some are written from a very partisan perspective.  But they show no indication that Müller resigned one day before his term ended, or that Pope Francis fired him one day before his term ended.  And even if that had happened -- which it didn't -- Ladaria's term would still have begun July 2, with a one-day vacancy between them. &mdash; <span style="font: small-caps 12px times;">[[User:Lawrence King|Lawrence King]]</span> <sup style="font: small-caps 10px arial; color: #129dbc;">([[User talk:Lawrence King|<span style="color: #129dbc;">talk</span>]])</sup> 20:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

:And see this in [https://international.la-croix.com/news/mller-hits-out-at-francis-says-the-way-pope-dismissed-him-was-unacceptable/5495 La Croix Internationale] where Müller says: "On the very last day of my mandate as CDF prefect, the pope informed me within one minute of his decision not to prolong me." [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 09:41, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

:: I've updated the text, using the ''La Croix'' source you supplied. &mdash; <span style="font: small-caps 12px times;">[[User:Lawrence King|Lawrence King]]</span> <sup style="font: small-caps 10px arial; color: #129dbc;">([[User talk:Lawrence King|<span style="color: #129dbc;">talk</span>]])</sup> 22:28, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but David Cheney, who operates Catholic Hierarchy and other various Catholic websites, is someone with better inside knowledge than the many news outlets.  "The last day of my mandate" is also not at all the same as saying he let him stay one more day.  The story's claim that his term officially ended on July 2 was also poorly written. The Pope is the still the head of Church and the appointment for the Prefect is not like the appointment of Bishops who wait for ordination.[[Special:Contributions/68.47.65.239|68.47.65.239]] ([[User talk:68.47.65.239|talk]]) 16:36, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:I'd take you more seriously if you didn't delete a perfectly valid citation because you didn't like it. I couldn't care less about the date, but even a very smart person who runs a personal unedited website isn't a proper source. [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 18:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid David Cheney vs Cardinal Mueller on this one.[[Special:Contributions/2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734]] ([[User talk:2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|talk]]) 19:16, 10 July 2017 (UTC)  I complied with request to not delete the website.  Like I had typed before, the story was poorly worded.[[Special:Contributions/2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734]] ([[User talk:2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|talk]]) 19:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Did more research and it turns out the five year term limit policy is even questionable.[http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1477]  Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, but censoring things like that the words of a parish volunteer who writes unsanctioned info about the Church on websites, and yet has not been debunked by the Church throughout all his years of doing this is not at all neutral.[[Special:Contributions/2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734]] ([[User talk:2601:447:4101:B820:D507:68D:4ED4:4734|talk]]) 19:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:That's a discussion of whether or not Francis has been or will be consistent in limiting people to just one five-year term. No one in that article disputes that Müller had a five year term. You're grasping at straws.
:Thanks for not deleting citations. They're citations, not websites.
:You added the word "allegedly", but that doesn't help the reader. Wikipedia has a good way to handle this sort of dispute. I'll add that code in a minute. [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 19:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:'''End date'''. Perhaps we can discuss the actual dates of a five year term. I think I've seen only one source (Clarín, cited above in translation when the issue was whether or not Müller resigned) that says July 2. Are there any other good sources or parallels to guide us? (I exclude Catholic Hierarchy and gcatholic and FIU, however expert their owners.) [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 21:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:Catholic News Service (in CRUX) has [https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/07/01/pope-names-archbishop-succeed-cardinal-muller-doctrine-office/ whose five-year term was to end July 2] 
:Edward Pentin in National Catholic Register [http://m.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-mueller-to-be-dismissed#.WWPw9oUpDYW Cardinal Müller whose five year mandate as prefect expires on Sunday. (July 2)] 
:Gerard O'Connell in ''America'' is perhaps less clear [https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/06/30/update-vatican-announce-pope-francis-has-not-reconfirmed-muller-head-cdf was due for reconfirmation in that position on July 2] 
:A secular source, NPR [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/01/535195268/pope-francis-replaces-conservative-top-theologian Mueller's five-year mandate, which comes to an end on Sunday] 
:A non-secular source, '''Vatican Radio''' [http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/07/01/abp_ladaria_to_succeed_card_müller_as_prefect_of_cdf/1322522 Cardinal Müller’s term as Prefect officially expires on July 2nd.] [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 21:40, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:: 2601:447:4101:B820, you wrote: "Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, but censoring things like that the words of a parish volunteer who writes unsanctioned info about the Church on websites, and yet has not been debunked by the Church throughout all his years of doing this is not at all neutral."  You are misusing the word "censoring".  If a newspaper is writing a story about Napoleon, and five professors of history at Harvard tell the reporter that Napoleon was born in 1769, but a high school history teacher tells the reporter that Napoleon was born in 1768, the reporter should report what the Harvard professors said.  This doesn't mean that the high school teacher is being "censored."  
::
:: Bmclaughlin9 and I have given sources from Vatican radio, NPR, many respected Catholic newspapers representing different ideological schools (''National Catholic Register'', ''Crux'', and ''America'' in the United States; ''La Croix'' in France; ''Passaeur Neue Presse'' in Germany, ''Clarin'' in Latin America) -- as well as the Vatican's website and a statement by Cardinal Müller himself.  You have given a single amateur website run by David Cheney as your source.  
::
:: [[WP:RS|Wikipedia's policy]] is that multiple reliable sources are preferred over a single source. &mdash; <span style="font: small-caps 12px times;">[[User:Lawrence King|Lawrence King]]</span> <sup style="font: small-caps 10px arial; color: #129dbc;">([[User talk:Lawrence King|<span style="color: #129dbc;">talk</span>]])</sup> 23:28, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Just as an aside... I emailed Cheney to suggest that Müller's departure should not be labeled "resigned", but "ceased". He's made the change. [[User:Bmclaughlin9|Bmclaughlin9]] ([[User talk:Bmclaughlin9|talk]]) 14:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* [[commons:File:Joseph Ratzinger.jpg|Joseph Ratzinger.jpg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-11-23T00:01:48.304280 | Joseph Ratzinger.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the [[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Joseph Ratzinger.jpg|nomination page]]. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 00:01, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 5 June 2022 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Speedy moved''' consensus was clear <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>  [[User:Goodone121|Bettering the Wiki]] ([[User talk:Goodone121|talk]]) 01:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
----

[[:Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] → {{no redirect|Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith}} – The [[Apostolic Constitution]] ''[[Praedicate Evangelium]]'' is active. [[User:Goodone121|Bettering the Wiki]] ([[User talk:Goodone121|talk]]) 05:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

* '''Strong support''' - with implementation of Pope Francis' curial reform the new name of all curial departments is ''Dicastery...''. [[User:Gugganij|Gugganij]] ([[User talk:Gugganij|talk]]) 11:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

:*'''Strong support and speedy move''': it is since today the official name. No RM was needed according to me, the user should have moved the page to the new name without consulting. [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 13:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
:*'''Yes absolutely''' not in the least controversial. I agree the move should have been made without consulting. [[User:Rutsq|Rutsq]] ([[User talk:Rutsq|talk]]) 19:06, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
:Strong support - with an auto forward from the old title (since it will take a while for folks to adjust their searches). [[User:Dcheney|Dcheney]] ([[User talk:Dcheney|talk]]) 19:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
*'''Wait''': The English page of the [https://www.vatican.va/content/romancuria/en.html Vatican website] has not yet been updated with the new "dicastery" name. Wikipedia should hold off until the transition has been implemented; As an aside, it was absolutely appropriate to have a move discussion so that potential issue might be brought to light. –[[User:Zfish118|Zfish118]]<sup>⋉[[User_talk:Zfish118|talk]]</sup> 22:17, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Zfish118}} [https://www.vatican.va/content/romancuria/it.html it has been updated], it is now called "Dicastero per la Dottrina della Fede" in Italian. [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 22:24, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
::My position is specifically we should match the English website, which has NOT been updated as June 6, 2022. –[[User:Zfish118|Zfish118]]<sup>⋉[[User_talk:Zfish118|talk]]</sup> 22:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Vatican News has been using "Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith" consistently. [[User:Rutsq|Rutsq]] ([[User talk:Rutsq|talk]]) 09:45, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

==Holy Office==
In phrases like "perform the holy office", I don't know if that's only the [[Mass (liturgy)]], some synonym of [[Sacrament]], or includes other things but that other sense of the term (whatever it is exactly) needs to be in the dab hatnote far more than some random movie.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User talk:LlywelynII|<span style="text-shadow:#BBBBBB 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">Llywelyn<span style="color: Gold;">II</span></span>]] 08:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

:I suspect you mean the Liturgy of the Hours. Sometimes called the Divine Office in US English, but more commonly just called the Office. [[User:Dcheney|Dcheney]] ([[User talk:Dcheney|talk]]) 00:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)