View source for Talk:Development aid

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==Why does 'technical assistance' point to this page?==
Just wondering why 'technial assistance' is pointing here. Is it just because a page hasn't been created for it yet? Otherwise, I would argue that it's not the same thing... though I don't have a definition of it myself (I was looking for one when I got here!) TA would just be one way to spend development aid.

<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Chluke|Chluke]] ([[User talk:Chluke|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Chluke|contribs]]) 13:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

==Title: "Foreign Aid" as a term==
[[Foreign aid]] is a US term. Outside the US, "development assistance", "international aid" or "development aid" are used. Furthermore, "foreign aid" covers a wider range of activity than development assistance, including [[humanitarian aid]] and [[military aid]]. It is a US usage to blur the distinction between these by lumping them all together as "foreign aid". The articles should not be merged. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 12:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

: I believe Canada and Australia use the term "foreign aid."  Do you have any references to indicate that it's an exclusively U.S. term? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] 06:37, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

::[[Development assistance]] should be merged into [[foreign aid]]. Consider the [[BBC]], a respected UK news organization. A Google search on BBC ([http://news.bbc.co.uk http://news.bbc.co.uk]) returns the following results:

don:::"foreign aid" - 5170 cases [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22foreign+aid%22+site%3Anews.bbc.co.uk]
:::"development assistance" - 145 cases [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22development+assistance%22+site%3Anews.bbc.co.uk]

::Clearly, "foreign aid" trumps "development assistance." The argument that "foreign aid" is exclusively US usage has no merit.

::&mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|talk]]) 06:58, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Try harder. aid+development: 35,100 [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22aid%22+development+site%3Anews.bbc.co.uk&btnG=Search]
Add "foreign aid" to that search and it drops to 423. (Moreover, the BBC is a news organisation which naturally reports US usage when the US is involved.) However, you are right that "development assistance" is not a superior term. The one generally used is simply "aid". I tried for "development aid" as being more specific (otherwise we might end up with [[aid (development)]], but the database kept failing so I gave up, and "development assistance" worked first time. NB the Australian government uses the term "overseas aid" [http://www.ausaid.gov.au/]; the Canadian equivalent is the Canadian International Development Agency" [http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/index-e.htm]. Both these terms are preferable to "foreign aid":

:From the Congressional Research Service: "There are five major categories of foreign assistance: bilateral development aid, economic assistance supporting U.S. political and security goals, humanitarian aid, multilateral economic contributions, and military aid." [http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/trade/files/98-916.pdf]

The single most common term for what is "development aid" is simply "aid". Only in the US is the term "foreign aid" used so predominantly. Elsewhere, the term is IMO usually an americanism, or describing US policy etc. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 07:47, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:"Canada strengthens foreign aid program" - press release from the Canadian govt. [http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/cida_ind.nsf/0/3D8BC7F60E32537385256C3E004587B2?OpenDocument]  Australian govt webpages using "foreign aid" [http://www.australia.gov.au/index.php?141] [http://www.dfat.gov.au/qwon/1999_2001/991123c.html]; New Zealand Liberty Party website using it [http://www.act.org.nz/action/campaigns/manifesto2002/foreign.html] Financial Times (UK) [http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/1684] Review of book called ''The Institutional Economics of Foreign Aid'' (four authors of different nationalities) [http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521808189] UK website for school students [http://www.courseworkbank.co.uk/coursework/does_foreign_aid_do_more_harm_than_good_2019] Article written by two British and Australian academics [http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:EXyNAfT9C74J:www.res.org.uk/society/mediabriefings/pdfs/2000/March/lahiri2.pdf+%22foreign+aid%22+uk&hl=en]

:Can you supply a reference indicating this is an exclusively U.S. term? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] 08:47, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say it was an ''exclusively'' US term. I said (or at least meant) that the usage of the term much more commonly than all others is US usage. Elsewhere, you get much more variety, eg development/overseas/international/foreign aid/assistance. See eg European Commission: 300 "foreign aid" [http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=site:europa.eu.int+%22foreign+aid%22], 9000 "development aid" [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=site%3Aeuropa.eu.int+%22development+aid%22&btnG=Search], 560 "international aid", 30 "overseas aid". But although a single institution (like the Commission) may settle on a preferred term other than "foreign aid", elsewhere its a mixed bag, with by far the most common approach being to simply say "aid", possibly after an initial introductory use of a more specific term. 

Moreover, there is the point I made about the '''distinction''' between the terms "foreign aid" and "development aid" (and the latter's various synonyms): development aid is a specific subcategory of foreign aid, covering (in the Congressional quote above), "bilateral '''development aid'''" and "multilateral" contributions (i.e. World Bank etc). Ergo, whatever term we settle on for "development aid", it should not be merged with "foreign aid", because this is unhelpful. (It is also distinguished from [[humanitarian aid]].) [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 09:23, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:If it's a subcategory, there's no problem with that being explained in the foreign aid article. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] 15:50, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC) 
::It's the most important subcategory, worth $50bn+ a year (not including private donations), far outweighing any other subcategory of foreign aid. And it raises particular issues of [[economic development]] and politics (re [[World Bank]] and [[dependency theory]] and [[aid effectiveness]] and so on and so forth, which is not enhanced by being mixed in with the other subcategories. Any decent amount of info on this vast topic will deserve its own article! [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 18:10, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::You know what, I increasingly feel this is an en-us Wikipedia, so do what you like. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 18:10, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::::No, it isn't but nor is it the en-uk Wikipedia. English is spoken as a first and second language in countries other than those two, so it makes little sense to object to a term on the grounds that it's mostly American, then replace it with a term that's mostly British. The issue should be which term is most common with English speakers around the world, if that can be determined. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] 18:30, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
:::::European Commission is not British. Whatever. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 21:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

::::::I read a lot of reports on development aid from international organizations (due to my current work on a master thesis) and not once have I come across the term "foreign aid" in these. The most commonly used term by the World Bank, the OECD/DAC, UNDP and UNCTAD is "development aid" when refering to commitments to developing countries when development and poverty reduction is its aim. I therefore think if would be appropriate to redirect "foreign aid" to "development aid".

::::::However, I do not think it would be correct to merge "Official Development Assistance" with "Development aid" because it is not the same thing. "Development aid" is the broad term, whereas "Official Development Assistance" only refers to the development aid that is given by the member states of [[DAC]]. The distinction is important for various reasons. I am writing an entry about the "international aid target" (the UN 0.7%), which actually only applies to the member states of DAC. In order for me to do so, I need "ODA" as a seperate entry. The reason is quite simple: When they first started discussing the possibility of such a target, the intended donors were just "economically advanced countries" (See GA Resolution 1522, paragraph 1). However, the DAC member countries were specified as the countries that should aim for that target in later UN resolutions. (See GA Resolution 2626, paragraph 1). Today there are many other donor countries than the member states of DAC. China for instance is emerging as a donor, yet they have no reporting requirements to DAC. Several Arab states have been major donors since the 1970s, yet the UN target of 0.7% does not apply to them.
::::::(Siri We 20:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC))

This discussion is long over... but I think that an important point concerning the term "Foreign Aid" is that it is written from the perspective of the donor, giving aid to someone/something externally. For that reason, while it may be an appropriate term when the US congress talks about how to spend their development aid money (i.e., abroad), it is not universal enough for an encyclopedia. It seems that Development aid is the more appropriate term, which could be used equally from the donor or the beneficiary (or other) perspective. [[User:Chluke|Chluke]] 13:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

==Improvement Drive==
The article [[Grameen Bank]] is currently nominated to be improved on [[Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive]]. If you want to support the article, you can vote for it there.--[[User:Fenice|Fenice]] 06:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

== Remittance as aid? ==

I would say that it is disputed that remittance falls under Aid. Remittance may aid(verb) but that doesn't mean that it is encompassed by the term Development aid. No doubt, workers in foreign owned factories get a salary but we don't define this as aid. Criminal gangs from country X operating in Japan say, take money back home. Is this aid?
I suspect this side of 'aid' is more political than anything. Since a good deal of money is sent from the States to countries such as Mexico as remittances, it biased figures enabling the U.S. to claim it gives more aid than it actually does.

== stub? ==

This article isn't much more then a stub. i'm not a great specialist myself, but i'll add a few basic improvements just to get started
--[[User:Karelke|Karelke]] 05:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Nothing foreign about development aid ==

Development aid is a general thing.  Economically powerful cities often have a variety of public and private forms of development aid available.  Development aid from rich regions to less wealthy nearby areas is also common.  International borders bring up some specific issues, but even more important are linguistic and cultural barriers.  -- [[User:M0llusk|M0llusk]] 03:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

== Foreign Direct Investment ==

I have removed the section on Foreign Direct Investment. FDI is conducted by private entities/corporations with the clear goal of returning a profit. This is very different from technical assistance, grants, and loans that are generally understood to constitute development aid.

== Merging ==

I would like to clarify one issue only.  Should [[Foreign aid]] and [[Development aid]] be merged?  I am trying to clear [[WP:BACK]] and I am more than comfortable to leave the rest of you to debate the article name after the merge is complete.  Remember, when we merge, all the previous names refer to the surviving article. [[User:Alan.ca|Alan.ca]] 06:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:I think they are two distinct topics and we should have articles for both. Foreign aid refers to all "international aid" or "overseas aid," including military aid, while development aid mainly refers to aid focused on economic development. --[[User:Bkwillwm|Bkwillwm]] 02:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

:I agree. foreign aid also include humanitarian aid/relief. [[User:Bassemkhalifa|Bassemkhalifa]] ([[User talk:Bassemkhalifa|talk]]) 13:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

==Biggest GDP contributor==
The fact that Norway is the biggest GDP contributor whit 0.7% has to be Inaccurate. Sweden today has 1.03%. This facts have to be updated. http://www.regeringen.se/sb/d/8983/a/80050

==Aid effectiveness==
In the article it is said that ''"The Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Abhijit Banerjee and Ruimin He have undertaken a rigorous study[7] of the relatively few independent evaluations of aid program successes and failures. They suggest the following interventions are usually highly effective forms of aid in normal circumstances"''
In fact, Source 7. ''"^ "Making aid work" (2003). Retrieved on 2008-02-21. "'' makes no such statement. They merely list a number of evaluations of projects and their stated effectiveness. The authors of this study emphasise that little is known of what systematically works. For example there are similar nutrion focused projects (Iron, Iodine and Vitamine A) which have had different effects, some being successful and some not being successful. Also, the authors state on the front page that their study is ''"Very preliminary"'' and that their study is not to be quoted without the authors' permission. Hence I question the validity and credibility of this part of the article.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.25.241.11|217.25.241.11]] ([[User talk:217.25.241.11|talk]]) 17:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Aid effectiveness section is nothing but a list of individual problems with development aid. It gives no general view and is hardly balanced. [[Special:Contributions/88.192.255.18|88.192.255.18]] ([[User talk:88.192.255.18|talk]]) 19:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

==Development aid searches==
Perhaps some development aid searches as [http://aida.developmentgateway.org/index.do AIDA] can be mentioned.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.246.173.164|81.246.173.164]] ([[User talk:81.246.173.164|talk]]) 13:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Books & people==
following book should be mentioned: dead aid by dambisa moyo, the trouble with africa: why development aid isn't working

Following people to mention: Paul Collier, Witney Schneidman, Stephen Hayes  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.245.73.122|81.245.73.122]] ([[User talk:81.245.73.122|talk]]) 09:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Effects of war and peace on foreign aid ==

The following essay was removed from the article: [[User:Whizz40|Whizz40]] ([[User talk:Whizz40|talk]]) 21:39, 15 October 2015 (UTC)


Effects of war and peace on foreign aid: 
The world over, there have been conflicts of varying proportions; from genocides, to civil wars to tribal wars. Lately, the conflicts have been reducing but it still remains rampant in the sub Saharan Africa, the Middle East and parts of South America. These conflicts are fuelled by several factors for instance perceived political revolutions, adverse economic disparities to clan feuds. In some cases despite the international community efforts, these conflicts, clashes and wars can’t seem to fade. Some sociologists have argued that foreign aid may be exacerbating these conflicts instead of reducing offering a lasting solution (Hakizimana & Endless, 2009). This paper will look at what influence does war have on foreign aid taking the South American nation  of Colombia vis-à-vis post conflict and conflict ridden countries like Rwanda, Somalia, Afghanistan, Haiti  among others. This study will attempt to answer the question: Does foreign aid fuel conflicts or do conflicts attract international aid? For this case study, Colombia is a very interesting example, it has been a country bedeviled by conflicts since the 1950’s. These conflicts are engineered by the rebel organization; Forces for the Restoration of Colombia (FARC), street gangs and the drug lords. A good example of aid application was in 2000 when the government of the United States committed an ambitious multibillion dollar aid to Colombia together with 800 advisors to help the feeble government of Colombia fight the narcotics trade and defeat the FARC rebels (Dube & Naidu, 2011). This American plan shall form the background into the study of if foreign aid really works.	
	Usually, international community is expected to come in when a conflict breaks out in a country or region. This involvement is mainly on the areas of providing humanitarian assistance to those trapped in violence who in most cases are women and children. In situations where war has already weakened the existing government to an extent where it doesn’t have structures to deliver supplies to the victims, international organizations out of necessity sets up their own aid structures which further undermines the credibility of the existing government. In most cases this gesture is usually used by rebels to advance their message of a failed government. This usually turns out to fuel the conflict even further. In countries like Rwanda and Colombia, the distribution of foreign aid has raised a lot of questions. In both cases the bigger portion of international aid has usually fell in the hands of the few elite minority as the majority remains wallowing in poverty (Hakizimana & Endless ,2009) . This dejected majority are always a cause of tension keeping the sequence of violence thus making it even harder to end it.
	Though foreign aid has been viewed in bad light in these conflict ridden societies, the fact that in most cases these aids where handled responsibly there positive impact can not be understated. For instance in Haiti, the aid has led to a huge boost in infrastructure development (Pace and Luzincourt, 2009). Though there still exist a huge disconnect between the Rwandese two tribal antagonists (Hutus and Tutsis), the country is one of the fastest growing economies in the world, a success that is partly attributed to post genocide international aid. After the 1994 genocide, Rwanda has been one of the aid most reliant countries with close to 20% of their budget attributed to foreign aid (Hakizimana & Endless, 2009). In light of pressure for Rwanda to increase the Hutu majority in government and stop repression of the opposition, it remains a shinning example of what international aid can achieve.
	According to Linden (2015) close to 50% of countries that get out of conflict usually slide back into conflict. To end this vicious cycle of nations sliding back into conflict Linden proposes a foreign aid that replicates those which were endorsed for Haiti and Afghanistan. In the two countries, reconstruction zones were established with an aim of stimulating the local economies back to growth path after years of conflict or mega disasters. This economic model was supported with billions of well managed foreign funds to ensure that there is production both for local consumption and exports. This is a perfect testimony that if aid is well structured and geared towards a certain objective, the positive impact can be very huge. In other words, foreign aid must be applied in a way that transcends class or tribal animosities (Hakizimana & Endless, 2009).
	For several years the impact of foreign aid to the lives of the intended poor has been questioned. Lately, a consensus has emerged that these aids usually do not necessarily impact on the lives of the victims of these heinous crimes (Ehrenfeld, 2004). It has also emerged that foreign aid has led to increased terrorism and the spread of gang culture in Colombia. War creates a state of lawlessness and unrestricted access to weapons. This influences formation of gangs which loots this commodity (foreign aid) meant for the vulnerable and use it to finance their criminal activities. Due to these, recent analysts have described Colombia as the breeding farm for terrorists (Naidu & Dube, 2011, Cassidy, 2010). For instance, Colombia’s ongoing civil war, weak central government, heavily armed gangs, and wealthy drug lords have made the country a sanctuary for homegrown terrorist groups that carry out bombings, extortion, kidnapping, and assassination (Cassidy, 2010). In relation to other regions, the effect of war and peace on foreign aid can be said to have both positive and negative impact; but the bottom-line is when used responsibly, it can have a huge positive impact that can trickle down to the entire populace of a country.

References
Cassidy, T. (2010). How foreign aid affects terrorism: studying the channel of social spending. 	Issues in Political Economy, 19, 6 9 - 9 5. Retrieved from http://www.elon.edu/docs/e-	web/students/ipe/volumes/Cassidy%202010.pdf
Dube, O., & Naidu, S. (2011). Bases, bullets and ballots: the influence of United States military 	aid on Colombia (1st Ed.). Retrieved from 	http://cddrl.fsi.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/evnts/media/Oeindrila_Dube_Bases,_Bullet	s_and_Ballots_-	_the_Effects_of_US_Military_Aid_on_Political_Conflict_in_Colombia.pdf
Ehrenfeld, D. (2004). Foreign aid assistance, political rights and bilateral distribution. Journal of 	Humanitarian Assistance. Retrieved from https://sites.tufts.edu/jha/archives/75
Hakizimana, E., & Endless, B. (2009). Rwanda Today: When Foreign Aid Hurts More Than It 	Helps. Presentation, Chicago, Illinois.
Linden, C. (2015). Economics of peace. Recom. Retrieved 4 May 2015, from 	http://recom.wider.unu.edu/article/economics-peace
Pace, M., & Luzincourt, K. (2009). A brief background to conflict in Haiti. Cambridge.

== Adding Ferguson's Anti-politics Machine ==

I am going to add this [http://www.colorado.edu/geography/class_homepages/geog_3682_f08/Articles/Ferguson%20-%20The%20Anti%20Politics%20Machine.pdf article] that gives a good explanation of why some development projects fail.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aldo.belmont|Aldo.belmont]] ([[User talk:Aldo.belmont#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aldo.belmont|contribs]]) 17:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Adding a Gender and Development Aid Section ==

I am planning on adding a Gender and Development Aid section, and adding a Gender and Development Aid new article. There has been a lot of research into this issue over the past couple of decades and some countries including the US [https://www.usaid.gov/what-we-do/gender-equality-and-womens-empowerment]. I've found ten scholarly articles which relate to this specific sector of gender development in my introductory research. The OECD also has a lot of information and data sources on the subject [http://www.oecd.org/dac/stats/gender-related-aid-data.htm]. I can link to additional articles if it is desired. [[User:Knaro|Knaro]] ([[User talk:Knaro|talk]]) 18:05, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

:I will be moving forward with these edits over the next couple of weeks. See my talk page for some of my introductory sources. ~  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Knaro|Knaro]] ([[User talk:Knaro#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Knaro|contribs]]) 01:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== External links modified ==

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== Addition to main space ==

I added a new section to the article, with the heading "Effects of Foreign Aid on Developing countries". I also moved a section of the article titled "Effect on the Recipient Country's Development", to the new section I added since it was better suited for the new section.  I would be grateful if I could feedback on my addition and changes to the article. 

Thank you. 

[[User:Vicentiagyau|Vicentiagyau]] ([[User talk:Vicentiagyau|talk]]) 07:29, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

== Difference between development aid and (foreign) aid? ==

What is the difference between [[development aid]] (as described in this article) and foreign aid (as described in the article "[[aid]]")? The "aid" article says that developmental aid is a type of foreign aid, but there doesn't seem to be much if any difference between the two. Maybe these articles should be merged? I've written a [[Talk:Aid#Difference between development aid and (foreign) aid?|similarly worded question on the other article's talk page]]. - [[Special:Contributions/212.130.152.24|212.130.152.24]] ([[User talk:212.130.152.24|talk]]) 04:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

: I suggest centralizing all further conversation on this topic at [[Talk:Aid#confusion with development aid]]. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 18:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
:: Just so say that I am currently working on this article and have already made changes so that [[aid]] is the overarching article and [[development aid]] is the sub-article. I am trying to reduce the overlap, especially in the section on criticism (see below). [[User:EMsmile|EMsmile]] ([[User talk:EMsmile|talk]]) 11:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

== Proposed merge of [[:Hardware (development cooperation)]] ==
(into [[:Development aid]])
One of several related [[WP:DICTDEF]]s <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 09:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per nom. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 18:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
:{{merge done}} [[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] ([[User talk:Klbrain|talk]]) 19:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

== Proposed merge of [[:Orgware]] into [[:Development aid]]  ==

One of several related [[WP:DICTDEF]]s <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 22:49, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per nom. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 18:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
:{{merge done}} [[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] ([[User talk:Klbrain|talk]]) 19:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

== Reworking the section on criticism ==

I am currently reworking the section that is currently called "Debated effectiveness and unfavourable impacts". I am trying to re-arrange things so that the content that is about aid in general is moved to [[aid]], and we only have content here that is specific to development aid. It might be that the entire content has to be moved to [[aid]] and we just link to there. Compare also with the article [[humanitarian aid]] that has its own section on "problematic aspects" - those that are specific to humanitarian aid (so that's better). [[User:EMsmile|EMsmile]] ([[User talk:EMsmile|talk]]) 11:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)