View source for Talk:Demand Note

{{Skip to talk}}
{{Talk header}}
{{Article history|action1=FAC
|action1date=03:57, 10 April 2006
|action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Demand Note
|action1result=promoted
|action1oldid=47635439

|action2=FAR
|action2date=16:25, 6 November 2012
|action2link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Demand Note/archive1
|action2result=removed
|action2oldid=492943517

|maindate=May 26, 2006
|currentstatus=FFA
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1=
{{WikiProject United States |importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Numismatics |importance=Mid |americancurrency=yes |americancurrency-importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Finance & Investment|importance=Low}}
}}

==older entries==
This article is my homage to the deletionists that didn't seem too concerned about helping someone new to Wikipedia but rather deleting for the sake of deleting '''multiple''' times.  However, whoever it was that eventually did help me, I give my thanks. --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 01:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

== Tag? ==

Isn't there supposed to be a tag on the article page to identify it as a featured article? [[User:Ifnord|Ifnord]] 00:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:See my comment on your talk page. [[User:Schutz|Schutz]] 00:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::Got it. But I'm wondering why the article has no star on the top right corner nor does it appear to be in the featured article category. [[User:Ifnord|Ifnord]] 00:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:::The talk page is in the category, not the article; as for the FA star, I can see it; it may depend on your skin, though. You should maybe have a look at other featured articles to see if it works for you, or change your configuration. [[User:Schutz|Schutz]] 00:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

==Capitals==
Why is "Demand Note" capitalised? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 08:47 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).

:Because it is a proper noun --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 09:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::I don't think it is a [[proper noun]].  "I have in my hand a demand note." "I have in my hand the Star of India." ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 09:37 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).
::: It isn't. See [[wiktionary:demand_note]] and [http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/demandnote.asp]. What a large mistake. —[[User:Michiel Sikma|Michiel Sikma]], 09:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::The demand note that Michiel linked to isn't the same one as this artilce refers to. The article is about the Demand Note, a specific type of paper money used my the US, not just a general notice of debt. [[User:Chcknwnm|'''Ch''']][[User:Chcknwnm/Esperanza|<span style="color:Green;">u</span>]][[User talk:Chcknwnm|'''ck''']]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Chcknwnm|(척뉴넘)]]</sup> 10:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::: I'm not quite sure what you meant by that statement, Rich, but I'm assuming it's the matter of two common words becoming a proper noun. E.G., niether "times" nor "square" is a proper noun, but when put together the words describe a '''specific''' place, [[Times Square]].  In a Demand Note's case, it's a '''specific, unique''' object being entitled. --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 11:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::: That would imply there was only one Demand Note.  If there was a single denomination, perhaps the point could be stretched , as per "The design of the Penny Black was unusual.", compared with "I have a penny black in my collection."  But there are several demand notes, the 5$, 10$ etc.. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 13:27 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).
::::::: There is no limit, however, on the number of objects,things,etc. that can exist for the word describing it to be considered a proper noun (i.e. Founding Fathers). --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 13:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Federal_Reserve_Note#Federal_Reserve_note.2FNote here]. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 11:00 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).

== Shabby pictures, no ext. links ==

I think that the pictures in this article are ugly. They're edited images of demand notes with text on them. The font that's used is awful, and there are effects on it that I certainly don't agree with. I'd be glad to fix them up a little, but it makes me wonder why an article like this is promoted to featured. Whatever happened to concise and unedited use of images? This is just visual bloat to me. This article also contains no external links. That's not exactly a prerequisite to be a featured article, but I've come to expect featured articles to have lots of tips for further research. —[[User:Michiel Sikma|Michiel Sikma]], 09:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:Which pictures are you talking about. The first one? That helps show the different denominations of Demand Notes. The only other one would be the "for the" picture, but that's probably the best way of showing that. All of the other pictures are unedited. As for the external links, you must have missed the reference section, where there is 4 of them. External links don't have to have their own section to be in an article. [[User:Chcknwnm|'''Ch''']][[User:Chcknwnm/Esperanza|<span style="color:Green;">u</span>]][[User talk:Chcknwnm|'''ck''']]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Chcknwnm|(척뉴넘)]]</sup> 10:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:This article got to featured status on the strength of two "support" votes.  While I don't challenge the quality of the article, I do think the process seems a bit flawed. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 13:39 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).
:::The lack of attention to voting this article to a FAC was mainly due to distraction from the war over the lead section picture.  However, the main idea of promoting an article is that consensus is reached, not that a certain number of votes are cast.  --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 14:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't want to be heavily critical of this article, because it is good and interesting, and with some work could easily become one of Wikipedia's best articles, but for now it is not IMHO of featured standard. From the FAL it seems only two people actually supported it, so rather than a consensus being reached it looks like the argument over image usage has allowed you to slip through the back door. Well, whatever, but things that I feel need attention are: the use of sub-sectioning in pre-issuance and post-issuance... I don't even understand what's going on there - why aren't they double = subjects? And, as mentioned above, you must provide some external links - Wikipedia should be a vehicle for people to improve their knowledge in a basic way (reading intros), an intermediate way (reading a whole article) or to try to gain thorough knowledge of a subject (by reading an article and then following up via external links). All IMHO of course! [[User:SteveRwanda|SteveRwanda]] 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::1. I don't understand what you don't understand (and what do you mean by double = subjects?)
:::::2. Featured articles are either: 
::::::*Supported - a user feels nothing needs to be changed and thus the article is ok to progress to  a featured article status
::::::*Opposed - a user feels there is something that needs to be changed before the article can progress to a featured article status
::::::I addressed all of the issues that were brought up against it (thus concensus).  It's not based on votes (see: [[WP:WWIN#Wikipedia_is_not_an_experiment_in_democracy|what wikipedia is not: democracy]]) but rather the quality of the article.
:::::3. Regarding external links, read the 2nd paragraph of this discussion section
:::::--[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 23:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

==Other Demand Notes==
Is it worth a mention in the article that demand notes are/have been used elsewhere in the world (e.g. Scotland)? [[User:Andycairns|Andy]] 11:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:It wouldn't be appropriate in this article because it refers specifically to Demand Notes issued by the U.S. gov't.  However, it would be worth mentioning them in their own article.  --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 11:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::A "hat note" might be appropriate. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 12:26 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).

:::Huh huh ;) --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 13:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Most often, "demand note" refers to any promissory note that is payable on demand.  As such, they constitute one of the most frequently-used financial instruments in the world, and are probably worth an article, since there is significant case law concerning tehm.  Ultimately either that subject or a dab page should be the article under this name.  At that point this article should probably be renamed "Demand note (United States Currency)" or some such.   No harm until someone gets around to writing the more general article, though.  The term is also used colloquially by LE to refer to a note passed by a bank robber to a teller demanding money.  Whether this is dark humor is beyond my knowledge.  [[User:Robert A West|Robert A.West]] ([[User talk:Robert A West|Talk]]) 18:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

==Better phrasing==
"Demand Notes not of the most common types usually do not have a price affixed to them and sell at auction prices;" - I can see what's being got at here but perhaps something like "Apart from the most common types, Demand Notes usually sell at auction, rather than being offered at a fixed price;" - "rather than being offered at a fixed price" could be removed if it's seen as redundant giving "Apart from the most common types, Demand Notes usually sell at auction;". Perhaps there's a better phrasing? ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich ]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'' 13:35 [[26  May]] [[2006]] (UTC).

:Fixed.  [[User:LondonYoung|LondonYoung]] ([[User talk:LondonYoung|talk]]) 14:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

==Indian Currency==

The Indian Currency is a Demand Note[[User:Doctorbruno|Doctor Bruno]] 14:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:So too are [[English banknote]]s saying <small>I PROMISE TO PAY THE BEARER ON DEMAND THE SUM OF</small> and then the value of the note.  It does not count for much now, unless you simply want to change a worn note for a clean one. --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 23:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

== Main image ==

The main image used in this article doesn't really seem like it belongs in an encyclopedia.  More like an advertisement in a <s>philately</s> numismatics magazine.--[[User:Theodore Kloba|Theodore Kloba]] 19:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:Another opinion: I think that it is great, as it gives a visual reference of what is being described in the article.  I found that I consulted it several times as I read the text.  It also adds color, which is never a bad thing in my view. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 22:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

::This has been debated to death.  The main reason for the image is that it '''sumarizes''' the information of the article without being '''extremely repetative''' of the images contained in the body of the article.  Also [[philately]] deals with stamp but [[numismatic]]s deals with money. --[[User:DieYuppieScum|Kurt]] 22:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm sure it was debated, but being a featured article draws in new eyes.  I think the content of the image is great, but the graphical style (script lettering, flag background, drop-shadowed vignettes, etc.) just doesn't seem to fit. (Terminology in my previous comment corrected.) --[[User:Theodore Kloba|Theodore Kloba]] 20:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
::::This image does not fit the visual style of the site.  There is no need for a pictorial summary in the article.  - [[User:Crosbiesmith|Crosbiesmith]] ([[User talk:Crosbiesmith|talk]]) 19:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::When this article was proposed as a Featured Article there was a long debate over this image, [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Demand Note|here]],  in addition to the debate in this section and the one above.  Eventually the image remained and the article went on to achieve featured article status.  I am expressing no opinion on the image, and just alerting you to the more extensive debate on another page. --[[User:LondonYoung|LondonYoung]] ([[User talk:LondonYoung|talk]]) 23:05, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

== Proposal to remove date-autoformatting ==

Dear fellow contributors

[[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Date_autoformatting|MOSNUM]] no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Full_date_formatting|rules for the raw formatting]], irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28links%29#Overlinking_and_underlinking|MOSLINK]] and [[Wikipedia:Context#What_generally_should_not_be_linked|CONTEXT]] are consistent with this. 

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:
{{hidden|contentstyle=border:1px solid #C0C0C0; |headerstyle=color:black; background: #C0C0C0; |header= Disadvantages of date-autoformatting|content=<br/>

*'''(1) In-house only'''
:*(a) It works only for the WP "elite". 
:*(b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.  
:*(c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

*'''(2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences'''
:*(a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling ([[WP:ENGVAR]]) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

*'''(3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates'''
:*(a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
:*(b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
:*(c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

*'''(4) Typos and misunderstood coding'''
:*(a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
:*(b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are  much easier for WPians to pick up  than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
:*(c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

*'''(5) Edit-mode clutter'''
:*(a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

*'''(6) Limited application'''
:*(a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
:*(b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.}}

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk)</span>]] 14:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

== Specie Redemption after December 1861? ==

Several sources indicate that it is a common misconception that these notes were ever paid out in coin by the assistant treasurers after the suspension of specie payment by banks in December of 1861.  This article implies otherwise.  I am going to do further research and edit the article to correct the false impression if research continues to back this up.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:LondonYoung|LondonYoung]] ([[User talk:LondonYoung|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/LondonYoung|contribs]]) 16:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: OK, so I went ahead.  [[User:LondonYoung|LondonYoung]] ([[User talk:LondonYoung|talk]]) 22:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

== Concerns ==

Before I start a FAR, some of the paragraphs like "located respectively to her right and left." in the section ''$20 notes'' and "authority to issue banknotes at that time" in ''Treasury Notes and Early United States Paper Money'' is unreferenced. If anybody needs help, please let me know. I probably check back in the meantime or so. '''[[User:Jj98|JJ98]] <small>([[User talk:Jj98|Talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Jj98|Contributions]])</small>''' 21:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

:I contribute to this article.  Are the concerns to just increase referencing, or is there a problem with the writing style?  The statement "located respectively to her right and left." is evident from the nearby image of the twenty dollar note.  The debate over authority to issue banknotes is covered extensively in Wesley Mitchell's book (currently reference 9) which is already referenced 7 times, so I don't know if an eight reference would help readers or not.  But I am happy to help make changes if you can provide some more specific guidance.  I have copies of most of the necessary reference books to hand and stand ready to respond to any or all advice ...--[[User:LondonYoung|LondonYoung]] ([[User talk:LondonYoung|talk]]) 22:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

==High resolution images==
I have added high resolution images for each denomination in a tabular format. Is there any objection to removing the lower resolution images for each denomination? Thanks--[[User:Godot13|Godot13]] ([[User talk:Godot13|talk]]) 00:34, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

==Article to be featured on the main page==
*Hello! This is a note for the editors of this article that Demand Note will feature in the Picture of the Day section on 10 August 2014, with the images [[:File:US-$5-DN-1861-Fr.1.jpg]], [[:File:US-$10-DN-1861-Fr.7.jpg]], and [[:File:US-$20-DN-1861-Fr.12.jpg]]. The template will be as follows:
{{POTD/2014-08-10}}
:Have a nice day!&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Crisco 1492]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 00:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

== Size? ==

I think it would be helpful to indicate the size of the notes; I've heard that the size banknotes and dollars has changed over time.  Does anyone have a source for this?  --[[User:A D Monroe III|A D Monroe III]] ([[User talk:A D Monroe III|talk]]) 15:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)