View source for Talk:Dam Brit

== Welcome! ==
Knowing there are a lot of people out there who think a [[Brit milah]] is mutilation, and having my [[Template Talk:Jewish texts|last creation]] torn apart, I want to be very careful about this page, and haven't posted it anywhere but here.  I will put out some invitations to come review.

<blockquote>
<u>Why should this article exist?</u>  As a Jewish ritual, Brit-Dam is only performed when a Brit-Milah can't be performed &ndash; so one might think of it as only a Brit-Milah adjunct.  Particularly in cases where a convert has been circumcised before becoming Baal Tshuv, it still is it's own distinct and separate ceremony with its own set of Jewish Laws pertaining.  The focus should be on just Brit-Dam, not on Brit-Milah.
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<u>What are my motives?</u>  Although I know about it, and I know the ''Milah l'shem Giur'' will get my son out of it (if my wife doesn't pass the [[Beit din]]), I have never been present at the ceremony, and do not know what actually takes place.  Though I believe it to be a [[wiktionary:euphemism|euphemism]], I have always heard it referred to by my parents and others as "The Pinprick." I was hoping that knowledgable Wikipedians could help fill in the gaps and get some weird images out of my head.
</blockquote>

To these ends, I wrote as much I know, coupled with what I gleaned from the internet source mentioned, in the draft below.  It quite clearly is missing a "ceremony" section, and could also use a "laws" section.

<span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098l">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp;</span> 19:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

== Draft ==
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'''Brit-Dam''' or '''Dam-Brit''' (''[[Hebrew language|heb.]]'' ברית דם ''lit. "Blood of the Covenant"'') refers to the fulfillment of the ''[[Mitzvah]]'' of a ''[[Brit milah|Brit Milah]]''.

===Blood===
A Brit Milah is not considered complete, unless ''Brit-Dam'' has occurred.  This is not the intentional spilling of blood, as one might assume.  The standard medical methods of [[circumcision]] through constriction are '''not''' allowed by [[Jewish Law]] because they cause [[Wiktionary:homeostasis|homeostasis]] (stop the flow of blood).  A Brit Milah is not proper, without the use of an appropriate ''[[wiktionary:Izmel|izmel]]'' (specialized surgical knife).

Contrary to the Jewish method &ndash; when performed by a [[urologist]] or a surgeon, rather than a ''[[Mohel]]'' &ndash; constriction is performed either with the use of clamps or a synthetic ring.  This method works by crushing the skin until it severs. The nerve endings and the blood vessels are severed in the same manner, causing pain and homeostasis. <small>([http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=144127 Ritual Circumcision - Brit Milah])</small> &nbsp; Although medically sound, this is '''not''' a valid means of ritual circumcision under Jewish Law, because it does not fulfill the Brit-Dam.

===Role in Conversion===
There are reasons not to perform an circumcision when man has [[who is a Jew?|converted to Judaism]].  A circumcision is not required if they have already had a circumcision prior to conversion, or they have medical reasons not to be circumcised, or it would be considered medically unsound (in the United States, it is considered medical malpractice to circumcise a child over 30 days old).

In these situations, though a Brit Milah can not occur, a Brit-Dam can still take place, so the person is still capable of fulfilling the important Mitzvah, becoming ''[[Ger tzedek|Baal Tshuv]]''.




|}

== מחשבותי ==

Google searches [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%2B%22%D7%93%D7%9D+%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%AA%22][http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%2B%22%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%AA+%D7%93%D7%9D%22] make me think this probably belongs at "Dam brit" ("Covenant Blood").  "Brit dam" means "Covenant of Blood", which is part of the concept, but not the main topic of this article at present.  I'm curious... was this article created as an anti-article of sorts for [[Brit Shalom]]?  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 21:58, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
:Yeah, I wasn't certain: Brit-Dam, Dam-Brit, Brit Dam, Dam Brit.  My mother has always said Brit Dam, but I think that's just what she was always taught (Modern Orthodox, England).  I think modern Hebrew might put a [[wiktionary:connotation|connotation]] on that version depending on how the compound phrase is used.  I'm not adverse to seeing it move.  I'll wait to see if anyone else replies that they think it should too.

:No, it wasn't, but that was a good call; every time I've come accross [[Brit Shalom]] on the [[Brit milah]] page today, I've re-read it.  My motives/intentions truly were what I said in my [[Talk:Brit-dam#Welcome!|welcome]] above.  I think the driving forces behind that article would probably be against this as well as "actual" [[circumcision]].


:<span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp; </span> 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


:BTW, it's not called "brit dam" when an already-circumcised man converts, it's called הטפת דם ברית.  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 22:30, August 30, 2005 (UTC)


:Okay, that's two and a half out of three, I'll move it.

:<span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp; </span> 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
::Now I can't help but snicker...I keep reading "dam brit" as "damn brit". :-p [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 23:44, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
*Well, the article is weakened by the fact that it doesn't actually say what a Brit-dam is! Also -- beware easter egg links; it's not immediately obvious why ''Baal Tshuv'' is linked to Ger tzedek. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

===Reasoning for REDIRECT to [[Brit milah]]===

*You know, I am really horrified that here we have someone attempting to write an important "article" based on what his mother did (or did not) teach him. How on Earth can we read from the above anon: "Yeah, I wasn't certain: Brit-Dam, Dam-Brit, Brit Dam, Dam Brit. My mother has always said Brit Dam, but I think that's just what she was always taught (Modern Orthodox, England)" and still take this article and it's contents seriously? Basically this topic contravanes both [[Wikipedia:No original research]] and the teachings of [[Judaism]], trying to "[[Disembowelment|disembowel]]" [[Brit milah]] by focusing on a total miscomprehension and outright ignorance of the subject of Jewish circumcision, for admitted "personal reasons" of one's own son's hoped-for conversion to Judaism (see above anon's words ''"What are my motives? Although I know about it, and I know the Milah l'shem Giur will get my son out of it (if my wife doesn't pass the Beit din), I have never been present at the ceremony, and do not know what actually takes place."'') Since when is Wikipedia a vehicle for solving private individual's religious quandaries? The guy "writes" an "article" here, then will go ahead and "show it off" to other's as some sort of "proof" for his own foiled religious aspirations? Wikipedia and Wikipedians are too smart for that to be allowed to happen. ''[[Quo Vadis]]''?[[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 04:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
**IZAK, while I don't disagree, ''per se'', with anything you've said, ''every single sentence of it'' could have been said much more civilly, and if you reanalyze the things to which you're responding, you'll quickly find that there have been no anons involved in this discussion whatsoever.  What you have done is engage in a chillul Hashem by bashing someone with whom you think you disagree, under the guise of upholding WP policy.  Not only have you violated [[WP:NPA]], [[WP:BITE]] and [[WP:Civility]], but you've disgraced yourself and everything you claim to uphold in the process. [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 04:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
***Again, Tomer, my thank-you's.  Not only for the response, but also for the help in creating the article.  I had a feeling it would be merged, because without laws (and avoiding the unceremonial "ceremony" description you gave) it simply isn't substantive enough to stand on its own. [[User:Jndrline|Jndrline]] 15:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
**IZAK, I'd like to clarify two points: I was talking about my wife (currently converting; not foiled; will never have a ''hatafat dam brit'') and son (had a ''milah l'shem giur''; just turned 2yo), not myself.  Also, I never mentioned where I gleaned my information (my mother was only the source of the inverted phrase "Brit Dam," and of my curiosity), but you can see from my citation and from the text, where I got most of it.  Again, I don't see any edits that you made to correct any misinformation I may have been "showing off" &ndash; you copied it over to ''brit milah'' pretty much as-is! 
:<span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp; </span>

== Second Draft ==

All good feedback.  Moved the page, took off Brit-Dam, added full Hebrew הטפת דם ברית, which sounded familiar once I saw it.  Corrected Baal Tshuv/Ger Tzedek. (It was orginally unlinked, I was planning to go back to the article to double-check that it really was where I wanted it to go; still unclear: Baal Tshuv is for all people who convert, or only Jews who become Orthodox?  The comment would mean more if were the latter, so that's what I'm guessing.)  Capitalised Urologist.  Still waiting for the meat before I take the draft notice off the article: 1. What actually happens during the ceremony? 2. What would help this avoid controversy? 3. הטפה in English (foreignword.com isn't working for me right now)?
:There's no need to capitalize "urologist", nor a number of other words that were capitalized previously.  As for Ba'alei T'shuva, that means someone who's become more observant than they were, literally, they've returned to being observant from not being observant.  Someone who undergoes a giyur because their status was sofeq (in doubt) can be considered a ba'al t'shuva, but generally it refers to people who were born Jews and for whatever reason were previously less observant than they are "now".  A ger tzedeq, on the other hand, means a convert, and says nothing about their level of observance.  For example, [[Dr. Laura]] converted orthodox (her mother wasn't Jewish, although her father was), embraced Judaism, and has since become less observant than she once was.  AFAIK, she has not renounced her conversion, and AFAIK, no beth din has excommunicated her, so she's still Jewish, she's just an [[apostasy#In Judaism|apikores]].  If she decides at some point in the future, however, to become observant again, then she'll be a ba'al tshuva.  What actually happens during hatafath dam brith is that the mohel grabs you and jabs you in the dingaling, extracts a drop of blood onto a napkin or whatever, and sets you free.  Then he goes and shows the beth din the drop of blood, and they nod their approval that it's been conducted properly.  Whole thing takes about 38 seconds, half of which is you fumbling around trying to figure out some way for him to do it w/o you actually having to let him see or (ch"v) touch your weener.  Moving right along... I took out the stuff about baalei tshuva and garei tzedeq, since it really has nothing to do with hatafath dam brith.  In the article on giyur, a brief mention can be made that men undergoing giyur have to be either [[circumcision|circumcised]] by a [[mohel]], or if that is not possible, must undergo [[hatafat dam brit]] (which is where the current stuff in [[Dam Brit]] belongs, as a simple subsection).  As for "what would help this avoid controversy", I'm at a loss...what is "this", and what is the controversy?  As for hatafa, I think it's usually translated as "preaching". :-p  Kol tov.  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 23:30, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
::As for the "ceremony" bit missing, that's probably not very "fixable", since it's a rather unceremonious event, as described above.  :-p  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 23:52, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
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'''Dam Brit''' (''[[Hebrew language|heb.]]'' [[w:he:הטפת דם ברית|דם ברית]] ''lit. "Blood of the Covenant"'') refers to the fulfillment of the ''[[Mitzvah]]'' of a ''[[Brit milah|Brit Milah]]''.

===Blood===
A [[brit milah]] is not considered complete, unless blood is actually drawn.  This is not the intentional spilling of blood, as [[genital integrity|circumcision opponents]] might allege.  The standard medical methods of [[circumcision]] through constriction do not meet the requirements of the [[halakhah]] for brit milah, because they cause [[Wiktionary:homeostasis|homeostasis]], ''i.e.'', they stop the flow of blood.  A brit milah, to be conducted properly, requires the use of a specialized surgical knife, called an ''[[wiktionary:Izmel|izmel]]''.

Unlike the traditional Jewish method &ndash; when performed by a [[urologist]] or other surgeon, (as opposed to by a ''[[mohel]]'') &ndash; constriction is performed either with the use of clamps or a synthetic ring.  This method works by crushing the skin until it is severed. The nerve endings and the blood vessels are severed in the same manner, causing pain and homeostasis.  

===Role in Conversion===
There are reasons not to perform a circumcision when a man has [[Ger tzedek|converted to Judaism]].  A circumcision is not possible if a convert was already circumcised prior to conversion, or if he has a medical condition (such as [[hemophilia]]) which would cause a circumcision to potentially endanger his life.  In these situations, though a brit milah can not occur, and instead a single drop of blood is extracted, in a practice called ''hatafat dam brit'' (Heb. הטפת דם בדית).

===External link===
*[http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=144127 Ritual Circumcision - Brit Milah] from the [[Chabad Lubavitch]] library




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[[User:TShilo12|Tomer]]  made quite a few good edits within the draft.  I particularly like the "one might assume"-&gt;"circumcision opponents allege."  I was having some issues thinking of another way of saying it.  I've changed the double-redirect and the tense for "conversion to Judaism."
<span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098l">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp;</span>

:"as circumcision opponents might allege" is POV and [[Wikipedia:avoid weasel words |weasel words]]. Please clarify how "not complete unless blood is actually drawn" is not "the intentional spilling of blood". Any distinction between "drawing" and "spilling" seems academic when the key issue is that blood leaves the person's body. --[[User:Hugh7|Hugh7]] 20:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

:See my responses in above the Draft section above.  [[User:TShilo12|Tomer]] [[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-size:x-small; color:#129DBC;">TALK</sup>]] 23:33, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
::Sorry, didn't see that. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098;">&mdash;&nbsp;[[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&lt;</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">T</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">A</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">L</span><span style="color:#6539bf;">K</span></small>]][[User:Jndrline|<b style="font-size:smaller; font-family:Trebuchet,Trebuchet MS,Tahoma,Helvetica,san-serif; color:#3d0098l">JNDRLINE</b>]][[User talk:Jndrline|<small><span style="color:#6539bf;">T</span><span style="color:#7e6ab0;">A</span><span style="color:#9c8ec0;">L</span><span style="color:#c5c0d4;">K</span><span style="color:#c0c0FF;">&gt;</span></small>]] &nbsp; &nbsp;</span>