View source for Talk:Communards' Wall

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==Some of this article is incomprehensible==
I've done my best to copy edit this, but some of it is incomprehensible:

* <strike>"Versaillais" simply means "people from Versailles". I assume that in this context it has a more specific meaning. It's linked, but it's a "red link". Can someone clarify?</strike>
** Duly clarified -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 03:13, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
* <strike>This sentence is confusing, even self-contradictory: "There were between 20,000 and 35,000 deaths, more than 43,000 prisoners, about a hundred death sentences pronounced by the military tribunals, more than 13,000 prison sentences, and close to 4,000 [[deportation]]s to [[New Caledonia]]." How many deaths and by what means? "About a hundred" or "between 20,000 and 35,000" (the latter is more in line with what I remember from elsewhere).  "43,000 prisoners" or "more than 13,000 prison sentences"? These numbers may refer to slightly different things, and it may all be true, but if so it is unnecessarily confusing. </strike>
** Duly clarified -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 17:35, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)
*[[Workers' Movement]] is another "red link" (how appropriate!) and in this context rather vague. Are we specifically referring to socialism? or trade and industrial unions? or a vague amalgam of all of these? Anyway, a grand phrase and a red link doesn't cut it.
* Communards' Amnesty: another red link. Is there somewhere appropriate to link this? Maybe a history article that covers this?
*"[[Jean Jaurès]], although a stranger Communal memory" is completely incomprehensible.
** Now reworded but references "...the strikers movement": again, vague. Is this a reference to a particular general strike, or what? -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 17:35, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

The top-level bullet points above are [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 05:44, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC); updated by [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] as some of this gets sorted out. Discussion follows.
----
:* My dictionary says that the ''Versaillais'', or more specifically, ''l'armée versaillaise'' was "the army that supressed the Commune of 1871." I'll add that in to the article for clarification.
:* The French text is somewhat contradictory: It's written ''"43 000 prisonniers..."'' and then ''"13 000 peines de prison."'' Does anybody have an idea on how to clarify that in the translation? 
:* As far as the red links, I am not sure what they refer to, nor am I sure if my translation of those terms are accurate. I'll try to do some research.  
:* The Juan Juarès sentence in French is: ''"Juan Juarès, bien qu'étranger à la mémoire communeuse..."'' '''communeuse''' is not in my dictionary, so that may be why that sentence is a bit wonky.

I like what you did with the article, and especially what you did with the song and its translation at the bottom.

--[[User:Frenchgeek|Frenchgeek]] 21:18, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

* ''prisonniers'' vs. ''peines de prison'': is the distinction between prisoners of war and civil prisoners? 
* Does it really say "Juan Juarès", not "Jean Juarès"? In French? ''Communeuse'' is easy, just the feminine adjectival form of ''commune'', but I'm not sure I understand the sense of ''"...bien qu'étranger à la mémoire..."''.The near-literal translation into English that is currently in the article doesn't make much sense.  I assume it is a French colloquialism. I could guess, but I could guess wrong. I'd guess it simply means that he himself was too young to have any direct experience of the ''Commune''. He would have been an adolescent in the provinces at the time. Does this sound right to you? 

-- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 03:13, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

**That makes a lot of sense. And it is [[Jean Jaurès|"Jean" Jaurès]] and not "Juan."
--[[User:Frenchgeek|Frenchgeek]] 05:54, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the french term is a colloquialism. I would translate it as "Jean Jaurès, though a stranger to the memory of the commune..."[[User:209.98.168.72|209.98.168.72]] 22:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be useful if there was an article on the massacre of the communes that was mentioned in this page.
[[User:Myname100|Myname100]] 02:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

: It wouldn't need a separate article. If you have material, it would be a good addition here. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 05:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

== The sculpture is not the Communards' Wall ==

Trying to find the location of the Communards' Wall during my brief visit to Paris, I came across this article: [http://www.english.rfi.fr/visiting-france/20110106-truth-buried-paris-cemetery-sculpture-mistook-famous-wall Truth buried as Paris cemetery sculpture is mistaken for famous wall] in which the sculpture is captioned: "Victimes des Révolutions, 1909, by Paul Moreau-Vauthier" and described: "Created by artist Paul Moreau-Vauthier 38 years after the demise of the Commune, the work, entitled Victimes des Révolutions pays tribute to those killed on both sides of such battles – whether revolutionary or enemy."

While the sculpture has been widely mistaken as a memorial to the Communards:

:... this claim is flatly rejected by the Association of the Friends of the Paris Commune, a group founded by survivors of the Commune. This is France’s oldest labour movement, whose creators helped rally the city to the world’s first rise to power by the working class.

:“This (sculpture) is simply a monument to commemorate this period, but it has nothing at all to do with the authentic Mur des Fédérés (Communards’ Wall),” says the association’s secretary general, Jean-Claude Lieberman.

--[[User:Davecampbell|Davecampbell]] ([[User talk:Davecampbell|talk]]) 15:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

== The plaque is no longer on the Communards' Wall ==

The plaque shown in the photo -- "Aux Morts de la commune 21-28 Mai 1871" -- was in 2011 at the Société des Amis de la Commune de 1871 in Butte aux Cailles, not at the wall itself as shown in the photo. I don't know what's currently at the wall but I will find out on my next visit in May 2023. [[User:Mergy|Mergy]] ([[User talk:Mergy|talk]]) 14:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

[[File:Plaque at Society des Amis.jpg|thumb|alt=Plaque at Société des Amis de la Commune de 1871 in 2011|Plaque at Société des Amis de la Commune de 1871 in 2011]]  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mergy|Mergy]] ([[User talk:Mergy#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mergy|contribs]]) 14:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->