View source for Talk:City Loop

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{{BS template|City Loop}}

==untitled==
Should this page be moved to '''City Loop'''? It's already a redirect to here. [[User:Hypernovean|Hypernovean]] 12:52, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

:I think it's good as it is. City Loop is a general term; it should really be a disambig, but no one's created the related pages yet. [[User:Ambivalenthysteria|Ambivalenthysteria]] 13:01, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

::I've now decided that the ", Melbourne" suffix (or any place name really) on this page and all the others that have it is too useful to cull. [[User:Hypernovean|Hypernovean]] 06:18, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

==Power outage==

I recall in the news some years ago a power outage in the Loop caused train passengers to be stranded in darkness for considerable time (an hour or more?), and/or having to walk along the train line in the darkness to the nearest station.  There were reports of train drivers not having any torches to assist passengers in such an event.  I don't think this should be listed in the article, but maybe a bit of interesting trivia nonetheless.  Perhaps someone has some more info on this. [[User:Ozzmosis|ozzmosis]] 18:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

==Photography ban==

"The reason for the ban was due to the use of mobile telephones to take pictures of (mostly female) passengers - usually for sexual purposes." - I'm wondering how one could take a photo "for sexual purposes" on a railway platform. And if that indeed was the reason, why has photography only been banned at the three underground stations? Are perverts more prolific when they're underground? [[User:Invincible|invincible]] 17:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

:That didn't make much sense to me either.  I've removed the offending sentence.  Maybe someone can put it back when it is verifiable. --[[User:Ozzmosis|ozzmosis]] 19:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

::'For sexual purposes' doesn't make sense either. People aren't going to stand on the concourse looking down womens tops on the escalators withe their cameras. Maybe the open air stairs are more likely but wasn't the photography ban for security reasons so people that would want to 'you know' to our underground tunnels can't without being told by Connex 'Sorry sir, you can't take pictures here' I agree with the confusing aspect of this. [[User:Lakeyboy|Lakeyboy]] 04:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

== Failure ==

I know people writing to the press like to repeat that Melbourne's PT network is a failure, but [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=City_Loop%2C_Melbourne&diff=42599371&oldid=40578594 this edit] isn't exactly neutral. I mean, most people would agree that we're better off with the City Loop and reduction in service levels are probably more likely to be caused by increased car ownership than improved infrastructure. What does the City Loop have to do with V/Line services anyway? There's also a subtle edit changing the reason for the failure to expand the loop from a lack of demand to a reference to government attitudes - while that might be right today, policies and governments do change, especially in the 20-30 years that the section mentions. Since I'm ''meant'' to be writing a report that's due tomorrow, I'll leave it to someone else to fix the article up. [[User:Invincible|invincible]] 13:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

:I have removed the section because it consisted mainly of unencyclopedic criticism.  The few facts mentioned may have a place somewhere else in the article (number of travellers, or trains through the city loop per day).  Someone may want to reinsert those if they think it is really worthwhile. --[[User:Ozzmosis|ozzmosis]] 16:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

== Cost of construction ==

How much did this cost to build? [[User_talk:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]]<span class="plainlinks">[http://tools.wikimedia.de%2F~kate%2Fcgi-bin%2Fcount_edits%3Fuser%3DJosh%2BParris%26dbname%3Denwiki #][http://parris.josh.com.au/resume/index.shtml :]</span> 01:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

== City Loop Line Guide ==

Hi all. I've started working on a [[User:Rick69p/CityLoopLineGuide|line guide for the city loop]] in my user area/sandbox, whatever you want to call it. I've seen a few of this style of line guide around the place and thought I'd whip one up and put it up for review. Let know what you think. If there are no serious objections within a couple of weeks or so I might put it in the article. Although I must admit the exising diagram looks pretty good. -- [[User:Rick69p|Rick69p]] 14:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

== Radio Reception underground ==

I think it might be worthwhile stating that there is now a AM/FM radio re-broadcast system was installed in the cityloop to override normal AM/FM transmission in the event of an emergency

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/security-boost-on-city-loop/story-e6frf7kx-1111112387300
http://www.safeguardingaustralia.org.au/index.php?view=print&getp=284
http://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/CA25713E0002EF43/WebObj/PEBUAppA/$File/PEBUAppA.pdf
http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/CA256D800027B102/Lookup/protectingourcoummunitynewinitiativestocombatterriorism/$file/Protecting%20our%20Community%20New%20Initiatives%20to%20Combat%20Terrorism.pdf

I can't seem to find any articles confirming the installation of the re-broadcast system and the date. The only article I found was the Herald Sun article talking about the planned installation, and a whole bunch of government articles showing the system in the budget. I can however confirm that there is actual FM reception underground for the major FM stations only.  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nerox|Nerox]] ([[User talk:Nerox|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nerox|contribs]]) 10:01, 20 January 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Tunnel Portals ==

Can it be explained, perhaps in a "Description" section, where each of the tunnel portals are located on the loop?  I mean, if you look hard enough at Bing or Google aerials, you can make them out, but perhaps it'd be nice if we could get a detailed description of where the underground tracks meet with the surface tracks.  It appears that you can make out two tunnels in Jolimont Yard, one just east of Federation Square and one to the southeast near where Brunton meets Jolimont Road.  The northwestern tunnels look to open just north of Southern Cross and then just south of North Melbourne.  Someone with more knowledge could describe it better.  I'm also confused as to what constitues "groups" as described on the page. --[[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 08:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
*There are wikilinks, but the 'groups' are groupings of lines for operational reasons. All trains operating through North Melbourne Station are in Northern Group; through Jolimont Station are Jolimont Group; through Burnley Station are Burnley Group; and through South Yarra Station are Caulfield Group. For the rest, look at Vicsig when it comes back up, they have lineguides that show how the system is connected. [[User:ColonialGrid|ColonialGrid]] ([[User talk:ColonialGrid|talk]]) 12:46, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
::What of the portals to the tunnels?  Does anyone think it might be interesting to place a description of where they are, or maybe when someone gets time to make a map?  It's my understanding that while there are four individual tunnels, some of the tunnels share portals.  A little bit of detail might not hurt, as the current descriptions of the routes can get confusing.  First, you have lines, and then you have groups of lines, then you have the four tunnels, and then they have different portals.  It'd be awesome to see someone make a diagram with arrows showing which directions the lines go and such. --[[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 15:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
:::The tunnels have dedicated portals, some of them have multiple portals, but each tunnel is descrete without connections to the others. No harm in a map, but if you wanted it at track level it could get complicated. This might help explain it: [http://www.railmaps.com.au/cityloop.htm]. [[User:ColonialGrid|ColonialGrid]] ([[User talk:ColonialGrid|talk]]) 16:08, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
::::Thanks for that, as it does show the direction of travel through-out the day.  I'm still interested to see if someone could find or make a diagram of where the portals are for each of the tunnels. --[[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 11:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kiZ0PbXCmY8/U3RyySzEAcI/AAAAAAAABKk/3qJQKJgBz_Y/s1600/CityLoop1971.jpg This map] shows the general layout, but isn't labelled. Google maps pin drops:
:::::*[https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.809619,144.944008&num=1&t=h&z=19 Northern Loop portals at North Melbourne], [https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.817234,144.970548&num=1&t=h&z=19 Northern Loop portal at (former) Jolimont Yard end];
:::::*[https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.816238,144.972903&num=1&t=h&z=18 Clifton Hill Loop entry for City Circle service], [https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.815586,144.976336&num=1&t=h&z=18 Clifton Hill Loop portal at (former) Jolimont Yard end], [https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.816506,144.950592&num=1&t=h&z=20 Clifton Hill Loop portal at Southern Cross Station];
:::::*[https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.817656,144.976873&num=1&t=h&z=19 Burnley Loop portal at (former) Jolimont Yard end], [https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.81656,144.950516&num=1&t=h&z=20 Burnley Loop portal at Spencer Street Station];
:::::*[https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.821277,144.982199&num=1&t=h&z=18 Caulfield Loop portals near Richmond Station], [https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=-37.81635,144.950064&num=1&t=h&z=20 Caulfield Loop portal at Southern Cross Station].
:::::You may also find [https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11368366.htm this thread interesting]. [[User:ColonialGrid|ColonialGrid]] ([[User talk:ColonialGrid|talk]]) 13:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

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== Article Rework Progress so far ==

'''Current Progress'''
*Rewrite History- No yet
*Future -Not started yet
*Service Patterns- Clifton Hill, Dandenong and Burnley still need grammar checking & Nothern Group not started yet
*Infrastructure not started yet
'''Planned road map'''

1.Finish seperating service patterns to their respective groups

2.Seperate Future expansion into sections

3.Write Infrastructure section

4.Rewrite History section

5.Rewrite Lead section

6.Grammar checking and fixing 

7.GA-Submission [[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] ([[User talk:NotOrrio|talk]]) 09:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

== A few things to note ==

* I will be going out for a bit tommorrow so I should be able to take plenty of photos for this article
*I suggest that you dont edit this article feel free to suggestions in the talk page which I may take action opon, the exception to this is fixing grammar and punctuation on sections ive put a clean up tag on
[[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] ([[User talk:NotOrrio|talk]]) 11:57, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

== Direction of travel table ==

I think the summary table should be returned to "Services and direction of travel"
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Platform number
!1
!2
!3
!4
|-
!Lines
|'''[[Metro Trains Melbourne#Clifton Hill Group|Clifton Hill group]]'''<br />{{RouteBox|Hurstbridge|Hurstbridge railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Hurstbridge}}|white}} & {{RouteBox|Mernda|Mernda railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Mernda}}|white}} lines
|'''[[Metro Trains Melbourne#Caulfield Group|Caulfield group]]'''<br />{{RouteBox|Cranbourne|Cranbourne railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Cranbourne}}|white}} & {{RouteBox|Pakenham|Pakenham railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Pakenham}}|white}} lines
|'''[[Metro Trains Melbourne#Northern Group|Northern group]]'''<br />{{RouteBox|Craigieburn|Craigieburn railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Craigieburn}}|black}}, {{RouteBox|Sunbury|Sunbury railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Sunbury}}|black}} & {{RouteBox|Upfield|Upfield railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Upfield}}|black}} lines
|'''[[Metro Trains Melbourne#Burnley Group|Burnley group]]'''<br />{{RouteBox|Alamein|Alamein railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Alamein}}|white}}, {{RouteBox|Belgrave|Belgrave railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Belgrave}}|white}}, {{RouteBox|Glen Waverley|Glen Waverley railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Glen Waverley}}|white}} & {{RouteBox|Lilydale|Lilydale railway line|#{{rcr|Melbourne|Lilydale}}|white}} lines
|-
!Weekday mornings
| rowspan="3" |Clockwise
| rowspan="3" |Anti-clockwise
|Clockwise
|Anti-clockwise
|-
!Weekday afternoons
|Anti-clockwise
| rowspan="2" |Clockwise
|-
!Weekends
|Clockwise
|-
!Notes
|
|In 2025, Cranbourne & Pakenham services will cease operation in the City Loop
|In 2025, Sunbury services will cease operation in the City Loop
|Alamein only during weekday peak
|}
It makes it clear and easy to see how services run through the loop. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 03:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

:This could even be made as a template so it can also be included on the [[Flagstaff railway station|Flagstaff]], [[Melbourne Central railway station|Melbourne Central]] & [[Parliament railway station|Parliament]] pages <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 03:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

== Incorrect classification ==

I've gone ahead and removed references of the city loop being a rail service, when in fact it is a piece of commuter rail infrastructure. A good example of an article that is correct is [[City Circle|Sydneys City Circle]]. I've mentioned this to [[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] before but it was not acted upon so I've gone ahead and made these changes. [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 11:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

:Should we also remove the "elevated" part of the first sentence? The definition of the City Loop seems to be Parliament, Melbourne Central and Flagstaff, the tunnels and their portals, whereas the Viaduct and Southern Cross/Flinders are not technically part of the loop. So what's the elevated component? There isn't even much ground level components, maybe it should just be underground. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 22:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
::The map that has been placed in the infobox indicates that the above ground track is included (elevated and ground level). The map would need to be changed if the article was to only discuss the underground tunnelled section.  [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 00:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::This was discussed a while ago (not by me, but others) and the article lede and sections were amended to only reflect the underground section/stations as "the City Loop". If you read the lede, it does explain this, that the loop is the top three and they form a ring around with CBD ''with'' FSS and SXS and the viaduct. So it does already reflect this. This is how the government refers to it, and it reflects the original MURL project scope. See for example the way Metro phrases station announcements, or the recent works, where PTV said "The City Loop will be closed" and they meant just the tunnels and three stations. The map doesn't need to be amended, it can show more than what the article specifically refers to. If it's an issue it can explain it in a note, but the article text makes it clear in my opinion. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 01:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Ok that's a good point. Thanks for explaining it. I've gone and remove the above and on ground reference from the lead section. Are you able to add a note to the route map explaining how the map also includes parts that aren't apart of the city loop? [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 01:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::If you were to only keep the underground section, I would suggest changing the page name to something like Melbourne Underground Stations, and then making a new page dealing with the actual Loop Line (1981-1993). -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 01:22, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::The tunnels and three stations are officially called the City Loop by the government and PTV/Metro, so that should remain the title. The article has always been primarily about the infrastructure, but it is fine for it to also detail the services that use the tunnels. The loop line you're referring to was actually not called the City Loop, the service was (slightly confusingly) called the City Circle, for more see [https://wongm.com/2022/08/melbournes-mysterious-city-circle-train/ this interesting blog post], which explains it. In my opinion I don't think the service justifies its own article, but it could be more prominently mentioned in the History section. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 06:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I was aware of that, but the use of City Circle would cause too much confusion between the Melbourne tram route and the Sydney line. I also agree that it is probably not important enough for a separate article, and was hoping to make a case for it to remain part of this article. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 07:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I think it should definitely remain in this article, probably with expanded discussion in the History section, it could probably have its own sub-heading if there's enough sources to fill it out. On the naming, Wikipedia just has to use whatever names are used in the real world, even if they are confusing. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 09:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Interesting blog... I noticed one picture of PTV/Metro referring to it as a City Loop service [[https://railgallery.wongm.com/melbourne-suburban-pids/F137_2735.jpg.html City Loop on PID]]. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 07:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, I can do that and I will also take a look through the rest of the article to make sure it refers to the City Loop consistently. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 05:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] I've just noticed that the map still says 'Spencer Street', so i will need to update the map. I can do that, or we could just move the routemap up to the infobox, as it contains more information anyway? [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 06:31, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] maybe move the infobox into the route map. Easier than changing the diagram and also has more information. Also suggestion for the interactive map and Melbourne rail map that you have created- could you please add the pakenham east line extension to both of those maps (and probably the individual pakenham line map) [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 07:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I agree with using the BSicon route map. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 07:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Ok, no worries. I will take a look at the interactive maps, they use Open Street Map data as their input rather than manually adjusted data, so it depends on when and how Open Street Map is updated. Pakenham East probably won't get inputted until specific geographical details are known, and/or it's under construction. But I did notice that SRL East has been added, so it should be possible to make a map of that already, I will check on the Airport link too as that's technically under construction. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 09:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Thank you. If needed you can find location information of the new station on the big build website. [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 06:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I posted the following on [[Template talk:Victorian railway lines]]:
:::::As mentioned in City Loop#Clifton Hill Group, the Clifton tunnel used to offer a Loop service. This would make the City Loop it's own line (Flinders St to Flinders St via the loop). While @HoHo3143 is correct in saying the current "city loop isn't a service instead it is a piece of commuter rail infrastructure", making it a former one, but as it is still in operation, it is also not a former line. I have moved it into a 3rd group.
::::-- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 01:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
With the planned changes to both the Cranbourne & Pakenham services in 2025, this would leave platform 2 of the underground section empty. While it hasn't been mentioned yet any plans for the future of platform 2/Caulfield tunnel, and it too far into the future to be able to exactly say what will happen to it, there may be a reintroduction of a loop service. Travel issue with current loop services:
*Afternoon peak - no service runs from Melbourne Central to Flinders St
Travel issues when new tunnel opens in 2025 involving train connections:
*Cross city (Frankston, Werribee & Williamstown) - no direct connection to Flagstaff, Parliament or Melbourne Central/State Library
*Cranbourne & Pakenham - no direct connection to Flagstaff, Parliament or Southern Cross
A reintroduction of a loop service could be a useful addition. --<b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 01:49, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

:The Frankston line is going to be returned to the loop in the Caulfield tunnel in place of Cranbourne/Pakenham in 2025, I added language to the Metro Tunnel section recently to reflect this. The planned 2025 post-Metro Tunnel network can be seen from DoT [https://transport.vic.gov.au/-/media/tfv-documents/planning/rail-network-map-2025.pdf?la=en&hash=552E1DA482E73D82455ED4495B3CC75F here] (pdf), a loop service isn't part of the plans. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 06:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::True, but that is now outdated, there is no mention of Pakenham East (planned to open 2024). Not to mention the other projects like the [[Network Development Plan Metropolitan Rail]] (originally 2012 and all it's subsequent revisions), the currently underway ([[Melbourne Airport rail link]], [[Western Rail Plan]]), not to mention the other proposals ([[Suburban Rail Loop]], [[Melbourne Metro 2]]).<br>
::My point is, that by the time the Metro Tunnel actually opens, there may actually be a different plan to the layout of the Loop lines. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 07:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:::As per this map in the section Reconfiguration ([https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Network_Development_Plan_Metropolitan_Rail_stage_4_map.png Diagram of stage 4 of the Network Development Plan Metropolitan Rail, including the reconfigured City Loop.]), there are only 3 tunnels in use after [[Network Development Plan Metropolitan Rail]] stage 4 (2027-2032). -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 08:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, that map is just intended to show the network design post-Metro Tunnel, not all projects. It could definitely change, but there's no current indication of that. There's also been news reports on the Frankston line being returned to the loop. NDP Stage 4 is actually using all four tunnels, the Craigieburn to Frankston/Baxter cross-city route uses two tunnels (one in either direction), that's the main purpose of the city loop reconfiguration, it coverts two looping tunnels into through-tunnels. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 09:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

== Above ground is part of the "Loop" ==

Unless this page is to be renamed to "Melbourne's underground stations", Flinders Street & Southern Cross (and the viaduct connecting them) should be included as they are mentioned on the following original documents published by the railways:
* [https://vgls.sdp.sirsidynix.net.au/client/search/asset/1288577 Key to faster better rail travel in Melbourne brochure] - "five station loop complex"
* [https://vgls.sdp.sirsidynix.net.au/client/search/asset/1288581 Melbourne Underground Rail Loop (map) brochure] - "The overpass (constructed by the Authority between Flinders Street and Spencer Street stations)"
* [https://vgls.sdp.sirsidynix.net.au/client/search/asset/1288585 Helping to meet the transport needs of people brochure]- "All will be linked by rail track forming a loop around the central core of the city", "The stations will be linked by four tracks, part underground, part surface, part elevated", "Train passengers will have the benefit of five city stations"
* Another common thing all these have in "additional viaduct tracks" marked on the maps.
* There is also mention of this in the various annual "Melbourne Underground Rail Loop Authority reports" from 1971 to 1982
<b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 09:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

:Agreed. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">[[User:XAM2175|<span style="color:midnightblue">XAM2175</span>]]</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:XAM2175|<sup><i style="color:darkslategrey">(T)</i></sup>]] 10:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
::Just found:
::* [https://researchdata.edu.au/melbourne-underground-rail-loop-authority/492329 Research Data Ausrtalia - Melbourne Underground Rail Loop Authority] - "Construction of the Railway Loop - In December 1978, the two elevated tracks between Flinders and Spencer Street Stations were opened to rail traffic. It was the first fully operational section of the loop project handed over for service to the Victorian Railway Board."
::-- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 10:18, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
:The viaduct expansion was built as part of the loop project, this is already stated in the article. And without a doubt the whole five station circle is often referred to as a loop in the original project, and today it still is spoken of like this colloquially and sometimes in the media. The whole term comes from the fact that it's a big loop that trains travel around the CBD, of course. But it also was the "Melbourne Underground Rail Loop", underground is there in the title because the project built the underground stations and tunnels and connected them to the two terminus stations.
:There's a few problems with your proposal: 
:1) The government, Metro and PTV today clearly refer to the "City Loop" as just the underground tunnels, stations and ramps. The viaduct, Flinders St and Southern Cross are officially treated separately. This is reflected in both the service PIDs and in works communications.
:2) The construction history, which a large portion of this article is dedicated to, also relates primarily to the underground stations and track. There is already a separate article for the viaduct. Changing the title to "Melbourne underground stations" makes no sense as this is an article about a specific project and the resultant infrastructure, there would then be no wikipedia article about MURL. Equivalents are the Metro Tunnel and Crossrail articles.
:3) This article is primarily about the infrastructure, so it doesn't make much sense to include Flinders St station, Southern Cross and the viaduct in it, as they have separate detailed articles already. There is no "City Loop line" or equivalent and the services section is already probably too detailed already, it contains a lot of duplicate information.
:I think to make it about all five stations we probably need a stronger justification and a clearer rationale. And what's the point and what are we trying to achieve by doing so? If your concern is about popular usage being different then all it needs is a sentence along the lines of: "This article relates to the three underground stations and associated infrastructure, the term City Loop can also refer to the five city stations and the Flinders St viaduct... etc." [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 04:13, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
::I was suggesting the change in relation to the recent work I've been involved in with @[[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] on updating articles on Melbourne Metro services and the physical lines they use. I had made a mockup ([[User:ThylacineHunter/City Loop]]) of an updated infobox and a table for station histories of the stations located of the tracks that form the loop. This article would be treated as a piece of physical track (as opposed to an actual service).
::Although, including the Flinders St-Southern Cross section is not 100% essential. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 05:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
:::I agree with the suggestion (after giving it a quick skim read) and agree with the fact that this is a piece of physical track/infrastructure rather than an actual service.  [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 12:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
:'''Some changes that should be made'''
:*Add both Flinders Street and Southern cross to the stations section
:*Change the short description to "Piece of rail infrastructure orbiting Melbourne's CBD"
:'''Additional changes that could be made'''
:*Adding service information on the Frankston, Sandringham, Werribee and Williamstown lines in the city loop as they technicially serve part of it
:[[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] ([[User talk:NotOrrio|talk]]) 03:27, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
::Yeah I agree with this. We could also merge the article about the Flinders Street viaduct (maybe) [[User:HoHo3143|HoHo3143]] ([[User talk:HoHo3143|talk]]) 10:37, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

== Plans to finally include the above ground section ==

I will get around soon (im assuming Friday or Saturday) once I finish working on [[Carnegie railway station]]. 
During that time I will make the following major changes:
*Add both Flinders Street and Southern Cross station to the stations section
*Remove the layout section permanantly (I don't think its really needed and its difficult to find sources on it)
*Modify the services section to include the lines that only serve the above ground section (vline not included) including expanding the existing table (this might not happen if there isnt enough space)
*Make changes to the lead section to indicate these stations are part of the city loop
If there are additional changes needed please mention them below [[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] ([[User talk:NotOrrio|talk]]) 23:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

:I '''oppose''' changes to include Flinders Street and Southern Cross in the City Loop article. As has been discussed a few times, these stations are not included when Metro, PTV and the Government refer to the "City Loop". And while the term is often used to describe the whole circle colloquially and sometimes in the media, that is not what it means to the operators of the system. Nor is it what is meant in terms of infrastructure: the City Loop specifically means the four tunnels and three stations, and the original MURL project was to primarily to construct the underground stations and the tunnels. 
:To support your changes, we'd need some sourcing that indicates that Flinders Street, Southern Cross are referred to as City Loop stations by Metro and PTV in their contemporary, public communication. As far as I can tell this is not the case.
:See for example [https://dtp.vic.gov.au/about/transport-news/news-archive/city-loop-upgrade-powering-ahead this] Department of Transport communication, which says: "Construction of the City Loop began in the 1970s and now comprises four tunnels, totalling 12 kilometres."
:Or [https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/disruptions/city-loop-upgrades-planned-disruptions/ this] communication from PTV, which says: "To safely carry out major upgrades to the City Loop, a two-week closure will take place from 9pm on Monday 2 January to last service Sunday 15 January 2023. '''No trains will run in the City Loop''', and Flagstaff, Melbourne Central and Parliament stations will be closed."
:Here PTV is clearly saying the City Loop refers to the four tunnels and three stations, as Flinders Street and Southern Cross remained open during the works. This is also how the City Loop is discussed in the Network Development Plan and the Metro Tunnel business case. This is reflected in the way Metro daily announces services as "To Flinders Street station via the City Loop" etc. 
:I'd also note in the media, the "City Loop" also mostly refers to just the underground stations, see [https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/all-aboard-victorian-commuters-offered-myki-discounts-and-extra-trains-20201201-p56jhg.html this] article from The Age: "The revamped timetable – to be introduced from late January – '''will take Frankston trains out of the City Loop and run them directly to Flinders Street and Southern Cross Station''' then through to Werribee, delivering a train every five minutes during peak periods." The exact same language of taking Frankston "out of the City Loop" and running it via Flinders Street and Southern Cross can be found [https://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldsun.com.au%2Fleader%2Fsouth-east%2Ffrankston-train-line-pulled-from-city-loop-as-part-of-mega-service-shakeup%2Fnews-story%2Fe03c51a845935dd40efa916d7a26806b&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-high-test-score&V21spcbehaviour=append here] and [https://baysidenews.com.au/2020/12/07/rail-passengers-kept-out-of-the-loop/ here], just as examples.
:As I said early, if you want to include language somewhere that explains that the term is sometimes used to refer to all five stations or services that go around the full loop, that's fine. But as far as I can tell it is simply not accurate to say the City Loop means all the CBD stations. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 08:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::Some comments to the statement... "Construction of the City Loop began in the 1970s and now comprises four tunnels, totalling 12 kilometres."
::*the actual underground distance is 15.26 kilometres (portal to portal total for all 4 tunnels)
::*construction of "loop" began... - before that they were only lines to Flinders Street. Prior to 1970 there was no "loop"
::According to actual Metro documents (unfortunately not able to share due to copyright) refers to:
::* Flinders Street to Southern Cross via Caulfield Loop Viaduct
::* Flinders Street to Southern Cross via Northern Loop Viaduct
::* Flinders Street to Southern Cross via Burnley Loop Viaduct
::* Flinders Street to Southern Cross via Clifton Hill Loop Viaduct / City Circle Loop Viaduct
::<b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 11:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
:::These viaduct name can be seen on [http://www.victorianrailways.net/signaling/completedia/fssnm84.html 1984 signal diagram]. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 11:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
:::I don't understand what you're trying to say here, a track from the viaduct is assigned to a loop line? That it correct. It doesn't tell us anything about whether the viaduct, Flinders Street station and Southern Cross station are part of the City Loop. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 12:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::::It does mean 4 of the 6 lines of the viaduct are part of the loop. -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 12:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::''How'' does it mean that? And if you could also address the ''numerous'' sources I gave clearly showing the way PTV, Metro, the Government and the media reference the City Loop, that would be great. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 12:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::As for the comments to the statement "Construction of the City Loop began in the 1970s and now comprises four tunnels, totalling 12 kilometres", the difference in distances proves that this source may not be 100% accurate. Media reference also have a chance of not being 100% correct. Just because something is referenced a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean it is correct. The fact the the operator of this refers to it as both way (above & below ground / underground only) is a perfect example.
::::::Metro (and V/Line) have referred to 4 of the viaducts tracks as "... Loop Viaduct", this logically implies that they are part of something referred to as a "Loop". The same names are also applied to underground sections of a "Loop". The 4 "Loops" being:
::::::* Caulfield Loop
::::::* Northern Loop
::::::* Burnley Loop
::::::* Clifton Hill Loop / City Circle Loop (names appear to be used interchangeably)
::::::<b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 12:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::::According to the Metro Trains Melbourne offical document, there is a Burnley Loop Tunnel and a Burnley Loop Viaduct (the same goes for the other 4). -- <b><span style="font-family: Kristen ITC; color: rgb(0, 35, 102); text-align: center; text-decoration: underline #FFD700;">[[User:ThylacineHunter|ThylacineHunter]]</span></b> ([[User talk:ThylacineHunter#top|talk]]) 12:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::::The loop lines use the viaduct and are labelled to reflect that, that does not make them part of the City Loop. City Loop services are different from the City Loop as a rail tunnel/piece of infrastructure. [[User:Gracchus250|Gracchus250]] ([[User talk:Gracchus250|talk]]) 01:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
:Due to the dispute I cannot deicde what to do. I am going to go for including just the three underground stations for now as thats the way the article is currently layed out. [[User:NotOrrio|NotOrrio]] ([[User talk:NotOrrio|talk]]) 02:13, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
{{Talk:City Loop/GA1}}