View source for Talk:Cannon

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== Cannon in the Middle Ages ==

I have nominated [[Cannon in the Middle Ages]] for Tzatzikification , to bring it up to the same standard as the similarly named section here.  (For those unfamiliar with the term, Tzatzikification is a collaborative effort to improve the article by the [[User:AndonicO/Tzatziki Squad|Tzatziki Squad]].)  There was some talk of doing this earlier, but I think we have to admit that it will never get done unless we include it in the list.  The way I see it, it isn't necessary to take it as far as FA status. I think aiming for A-class is enough to keep it as an interesting side-project, agreed?  --[[User:Grimhelm|Grimhelm]] ([[User talk:Grimhelm|talk]]) 18:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:I'll help you with that as soon as we finish history of timekeeping devices. · [[User:AndonicO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Black;">'''A'''''ndonic'''''O'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Navy;">'''''Engage.'''''</span>]]</sup> 22:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I have done pretty much all that I can do myself with the article. I have brought in the relevant material from the sections here on ''Middle East'' and ''Medieval Europe'', standardised the list of references, tagged uncited statements, and rewritten the lede to summarise the article.  Of course, I also added some new sources and material: technological limitations, culverins, bombards, Russian cannon, etc.  The areas that need to be worked on are in verifying tagged statements, finding page numbers for some of the references, and some general expansion of the article.  The section on ''Early use in China and East Asia'' could also be improved from ''Early history'' here. Good luck when you get around to it!  --[[User:Grimhelm|Grimhelm]] ([[User talk:Grimhelm|talk]]) 14:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

== The cannon as a siege engine ==

I wonder, can a cannon be classified as a [[siege engine]]? According to the article about siege engines: "<i>A '''siege engine''' is a [[machine|device]] that is designed to [[break]] or circumvent [[city wall]]s and other [[fortification]]s in [[siege warfare]]</i>". I read somewhere (can't seem to find it, where?) that the cannon, because of it's power, drastically reduced the advantages of city walls; hence, cannons must originally have been used against city walls. --[[User:Kri|Kri]] ([[User talk:Kri|talk]]) 02:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:It depends on how one defines siege engine; according to our article, cannon would be siege engines, however, if I remember correctly, most of the books cited in this article that mentioned siege engines referred to trebuchets, catapults, siege towers and the like. It might be worth further research, though. · [[User:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Black;">'''A'''''ndonic'''''O'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Navy;">'''''Engage.'''''</span>]]</sup> 03:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Generally, the term Siege Engine is reserved, in my experience, for weapons that are either useless against anything but a fortification, or that is very difficult to use in the field, against troops. Except for the ballista, the bulk of ancient artillery was rarely used in ancient engagements (in fact, use of artillery was one of Alexander the Great's largest advantages)  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.214.158.221|69.214.158.221]] ([[User talk:69.214.158.221|talk]]) 03:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

 Hey mate. yes, a cannon can totally be called a siege engine. check out [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/siege_weapon# This] Wiktionary definition. Hope it helps! [[Special:Contributions/172.116.88.149|172.116.88.149]] ([[User talk:172.116.88.149|talk]]) 03:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

==Autocannon?==

From the description of the device, it seems more like an organ gun or volley gun rather than an actual "autocannon". If so, then it is at the very least preceded by at least a few hundred years. [[User:AllStarZ|AllStarZ]] ([[User talk:AllStarZ|talk]]) 20:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm, seems like you're right; if you could fix that yourself, that would be helpful. I don't really have much time and might not be able to get to it for a few weeks, and it seems Grimhelm is rather inactive as well. · [[User:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Black;">'''A'''''ndonic'''''O'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Navy;">'''''Engage.'''''</span>]]</sup> 02:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

==explicit edits==

someone has change paragraph 1 and some other parts of this article and im not sure why no one has noticed it. please change it back to the origional version because i dont really know how to work wikipedia. `  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.3.124.202|82.3.124.202]] ([[User talk:82.3.124.202|talk]]) 15:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Fixed, thanks. · [[User:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Black;">'''A'''''ndonic'''''O'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:AO|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Navy;">'''''Engage.'''''</span>]]</sup> 19:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

==Cannons vs. Guns==

On a trip to a fort, I have been told by a number of people working at the fort when I mentioned that "I have never seen a cannon this large", I was corrected and told that I would need to call what I was looking at a "Gun" and the "Cannon Balls" were prjectiles.  Asking why?  I was told that the Navy refers to Guns mounted on a ship as cannons, but if you took that same exact cannon and mounted it on dry land it would be a Gun and not a cannon.  Because the Army never used cannons but rather guns.  I point this out for your reference. Since this is not my fiend of expertise, I give you the information on the talk page. ~akc9000  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.253.39.242|64.253.39.242]]
</span> 04:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC) 
<span id="akc9000" class="plainlinks" style="color:#002bb8">[[User:akc9000|akc9000]] <sup>([[User talk:akc9000|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/akc9000|contribs]] <small>•</small> [http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/count/index.php?name={{urlencode:akc9000}}&wiki=wikipedia&lang=en  <span style="color:#002bb8">count</span>])</sup> akc9000</span>

Although not a SME, this article <i>does</i> need to add at least a sentence on cannons versus guns.  See usage of guns and cannon on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-32_Dominator. (There are probably many more pages similar to this one).

I believe in that article, the difference is that guns dispense static rounds (bullets) versus cannon dispensing exploding shells.  This article on cannon is incomplete without explaining how early cannon fired "balls" of mass versus the invention of exploding shells.  Do all modern cannon dispense shells, or do some modern cannon still dispense static masses?
[[User:Bcwilmot|Bcwilmot]] ([[User talk:Bcwilmot|talk]]) 06:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I was in the US Navy, 1969-1973 and I can assure you that we never referred to shipboard artillery as "cannon."  With few exceptions, all of the weapons were referred to as naval rifles, not just because of the rifling but because of the proportions of the tubes; my ship carried a 5"/54, considerably longer, proportionally, than (let's say) a howitzer.  One exception that I know of was the Newport News, who carried 8" howitzers.  [[User:JDZeff|JDZeff]] ([[User talk:JDZeff|talk]]) 20:23, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

== [[Dardanelles Gun]] ==
I have corrected the constant confusion between the cannon of [[Orban]] and the single extant piece, which, having been cast as late as 1464, did '''not''' take part in the 1453 siege of Constantinople (apart from that, there is anyhow little point in mentioning the same cannon in four different, unrelated passages). [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 19:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== Sexual content in Cannon entry ==

The first two paragraphs have been edited to add sexual content to the Cannon entry. I thought I was on a parody site at first. I'm not an editor, but wanted to alert whoever takes care of this article. Example:

A cannon is any tubular piece of [a man's shaft] that uses pineapple or other usually explosive-based sperm to launch projectiles.

I hope someone can fix this because it's pretty stupid.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Invertedoscillations|Invertedoscillations]] ([[User talk:Invertedoscillations|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Invertedoscillations|contribs]]) 03:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Deceptive use addition? ==

During Bernal Diaz's book on the conquest of Mexico he describes of periods when the Conquistadors had run out of shot for their single cannon but continued to fire gunpowder from it for morale purposes and to scare waves of Aztecs back from them. This is a fairly significant historical example of deceptive use I think.--[[User:Senor Freebie|Senor Freebie]] ([[User talk:Senor Freebie|talk]]) 14:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


Additional Information

If deemed appropriate, I was wondering if anybody might contribute information regarding the supporting structures for cannon, carriages, chaces, tackle, etc., especially in historical naval applications, or at least link to this type of information.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.219.89.215|75.219.89.215]] ([[User talk:75.219.89.215|talk]]) 23:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Early modern naval cannon ==

There is no mention of naval artillery before the 17th century. The impression one gets is that guns at sea were virtually non-existent before that time. I'm sure this isn't intentional, so wouldn't it be advantageous to stock up on more info on the early development of the naval gun?

[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 11:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


== Aviation Use of Cannon==
The first installation of a cannon on an aircraft was likely on the 1910 Voisin Canon.
Possibly the most successful (or least unsuccessful) was the SPAD S.12 Ca.1 which was fitted with a 37mm Puteaux Cannon which fired through the centre of a specially designed Hispano-Suiza 8 engine's crankshaft, however the weapon's low rate of fire limited its use to only the most skilled pilots. 
The British trialled the Quick Firing 1 pounder on several types but none found official favour, while the Germans, Italians and Russians all trialled Cannons. The low rate of fire usually rendered most cannons unsuitable for combat.
Probably the most well known pre-ww2 cannon was the Coventry Ordinance Works (COW) gun fitted to a couple of experimental RAF fighters (known as COW gun fighters).
During WW2 the 37mm cannon was fitted to the Bell P-39 and P-63, which though not finding favour with the Americans, was well liked by the Russians, who found that a single well placed shot from the cannon would destroy almost any German aircraft. As a result while post-war USAF aircraft carried on with the then inadequate .50 cal machine gun, Russian fighters such as the MiG-15 were equipped with a very effective 37mm cannon.
[[Special:Contributions/173.32.134.84|173.32.134.84]] ([[User talk:173.32.134.84|talk]]) 23:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

== Recoilless ==
This was recoilless, another category that has been neglected (though most are designated as rifles despite their size putting them squarely in the cannon category). The Davis gun springs to mind here.
[[Special:Contributions/173.32.134.84|173.32.134.84]] ([[User talk:173.32.134.84|talk]]) 23:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

== Russian Navy ==
No mention has been made of the weapons used on Soviet/Russian ships - the US weapons sound impressive only when the Russians are ignored.
The Russian AK-176 76mm/3" cannon is capable of firing over 2 rounds per second (130 rpm) and the 130mm/5.1" is capable of 80 rpm from a two barrel installation and both can be used as anti-aircraft weapons aside from their normal surface to surface role.
[[Special:Contributions/173.32.134.84|173.32.134.84]] ([[User talk:173.32.134.84|talk]]) 23:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

== Rail ==
Little mention has also been made of guns (mostly howitzers and mortars) mounted on railroad cars, which were common in eastern Europe and Russia were roads are sparse and/or unsuitable.
[[Special:Contributions/173.32.134.84|173.32.134.84]] ([[User talk:173.32.134.84|talk]]) 23:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

 don't quote me on this, but I believe that rail mounted guns are in there own category... might want to check that though. [[Special:Contributions/2605:E000:B058:E300:283D:CC7C:6643:98A1|2605:E000:B058:E300:283D:CC7C:6643:98A1]] ([[User talk:2605:E000:B058:E300:283D:CC7C:6643:98A1|talk]]) 03:17, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

== Korean Navy ==
The name escapes me at the moment but a Korean Admiral mounted cannon on armoured 'turtle' ships to defeat the Japanese in the 1500's (IIRC).
[[Special:Contributions/173.32.134.84|173.32.134.84]] ([[User talk:173.32.134.84|talk]]) 23:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The Admirals name was [[Yi Sun-sin]] and additional relevant info is at [[Turtle ship]]. Seems he didn't actually invent it but instead he resurrected the idea, though his was the first real use. This would seem to require its own section if noone has added anything yet.[[User:NiD.29|NiD.29]] ([[User talk:NiD.29|talk]]) 00:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

== Lombard ==

The [[Christopher Columbus]] article mentions a lombard, which I gather from the 1913 edition of Webster's is a small cannon. Does anyone have any further information? --[[User:Filll|Filll]] ([[User talk:Filll#top|talk]] | [[User:Filll/WP Challenge|<span style="color:Green;"><small>wpc</small></span>]]) 18:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

== Early naval cannons ==

There's still an obvious lack of information on the early development of naval gunpowder artillery. Someone who reads this article will get the impression that cannons were first used on sailing ships in the 17th century,. The truth is that [[galley]]s were the first to employ effective naval cannons and did so as early as the 14th century. The article needs at least a minimal update about the use in galleys and the development for use on earlier sailing vessels, before the late 17th century.

[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 10:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

== splinters from hits in wooden ships ("18th and 19th centuries") ==

The section's second paragraph (the carronade) says about splinters that "they were believed to be deadly" - would there ever have been any doubt about the lethality of meters long, jagged pieces of wood scything through the air and through the bodies of those who happened to be in their way? -- [[User:Kiwaiti|Kiwaiti]] ([[User talk:Kiwaiti|talk]]) 11:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

== Switch "Aviation Use" to Modern Usage? ==

The Aviation Use section is close to accurate, but too narrow and discusses the naming rather remotely.

Cannons are "medium caliber" guns, larger than machine guns, smaller than artillery. The general definition is "between .50 caliber (12.7 in) and 40 mm," but the definition is a bit fluid, and changes with technology or local conditions. E.g. If your army issues a 54 mm gun, and it is a rapid-firing, direct-fire gun, you may consider the top end to be 54 mm. Indirect fire weapons (grenade launchers) and some other things are excluded.

Anyway, you will see that these are not restricted to aircraft, but can be in any field, including maritime and land. The 40mm Bofors, and the 25 mm Bushmaster on the Bradley are two good examples. I think the Aviation section should be updated to refer to the modern use in general. Should not break the narrative arc, as this use came into being around the same time. As the rapid-firing automatic cannon was being developed, some were put in aircraft. But it was a distinctly different beast than the (broadly small-arms sized) machine gun, or the much heavier and slower-firing artillery gun. 

If you need a reference, this is a rather nice and easily-consumable printed work: http://www.amazon.com/Cannons-Warfare-Brasseys-Battlefield-Technology/dp/1857531043 I think some other key publications (e.g. Janes annuals) make reference to the basic definition in the relevant works, in the introduction. 

I apologize for only leaving this note. I don't have the time to do this myself, and I travel most of the time, so don't have access to my library when I do have spare time, so cannot get specifics right now. 
[[User:Shoobe01|Shoobe01]] ([[User talk:Shoobe01|talk]]) 17:12, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

:Aviation usage is separate for a reason as most cannon use is either nautical or army, while aviation use has its own history as well as technical difficulties that had to be overcome and this would be lost being buried in with the rest. I agree the part about limited rounds needs moving though (the examples are army ones and are not really applicable). 
In any case there is already a section for modern usage under 20th and 21st Centuries, however that section could do with some expansion and maybe the terminology part of that broken off into its own section and moved up and expanded.[[User:NiD.29|NiD.29]] ([[User talk:NiD.29|talk]]) 00:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

== 4in 14th century Chinese gun ==

If anyone can visit [[Rotunda (Woolwich)]], there's a nearly identical gun there from c. 1338. Maybe they don't mind someone photographing it. [[User:Have mörser, will travel|Have mörser, will travel]] ([[User talk:Have mörser, will travel|talk]]) 05:58, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

== Relevance of patents in the external links section? ==

They are not discussed in the text, as far as I can tell. There are thousands upon thousands of cannon- and shell- related patents in the US. [[User:Have mörser, will travel|Have mörser, will travel]] ([[User talk:Have mörser, will travel|talk]]) 09:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

== "one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community" ==

I don't see a great difference in quality between this and, say, [[gunpowder]]. Longer introduction maybe?. The users that took part in the vote here apparently have little or no subject matter knowledge, judging by their inability to spot any issues, and just giving rubber-stamping votes. This article actually had a few more problems than the one on gunpowder. That one lacked some information; this one had wrong statements, and statements that were individually correct but sequenced in a misleading way—misleading for the total neophyte; for anyone with more knowledge they provided amusement. 20:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Have mörser, will travel|Have mörser, will travel]] ([[User talk:Have mörser, will travel|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Have mörser, will travel|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I think you missed the point - all articles should be accessible to anyone and it shouldn't take an expert to gauge its quality.
Since the story of gunpowder is that of chemistry, while this is more a matter of events and people, this article should be more accessible.
Lots more to do here still, and I suspect a broad reorganization of what has been added to the page thus far is needed on both pages. [[User:NiD.29|NiD.29]] ([[User talk:NiD.29|talk]]) 02:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

== Overreliance on [[Ahmad Y. al-Hassan]] ==

I object to giving so much emphasis to this man's website in this article. He is no stranger to politics. Keep in mind that much of the [[UNESCO#Controversy_and_reform|UNESCO stuff is highly political]], and being on various UNESCO committees doesn't entail much for one's academic reputation. Syrian universities are also not fabled for academic freedom or much independence from their government's views. Also, the claims from him put forth in this article are not even from his UNESCO-published books, but from his personal web site. [[User:Have mörser, will travel|Have mörser, will travel]] ([[User talk:Have mörser, will travel|talk]]) 13:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

== Article Length ==
As of today, Wednesday the 16th of May, 2012, this article is around 100KB in size.  This is twice the recommended article size limit given in [[WP:SIZE]].  And it is getting to be really, really long...  I am wondering if some portions might not be spun off into separate articles in their own right?  Has anyone given thought to this?  To how it might be done?  To which sections might be able to stand alone or, alternatively, which might be cut or edited down in order to bring this article somewhere ''close'' to the 50 KB "upper limit" of size for a good article?  'Cause this thing is a behemoth as it stands...  Ideas? <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:KDS4444| <span style="color:midnightblue">'''KDS'''</span><span style="color:steelblue">'''4444'''</span>]][[User talk:KDS4444|<span style="color:limegreen"><sup>''Talk''</sup></span>]]</span> 13:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
:I guess I take it back: after implementing an article prose-size script, I am now told that the "prose" portion of the article is only 43 KB.  Is this still too big?  In my opinion, frankly, yes.  Is it big enough to formally require re-scaling or splitting?  Hm.  Maybe not  But maybe this is something to keep an eye on for the future. That is all.  Thank you for your time. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:KDS4444| <span style="color:midnightblue">'''KDS'''</span><span style="color:steelblue">'''4444'''</span>]][[User talk:KDS4444|<span style="color:limegreen"><sup>''Talk''</sup></span>]]</span> 13:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

::The article weighs in at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cannon&oldid=492874304 7,102 words]. That's not overly long, and there are many articles which are much longer. The question is whether 7,000 words is too long for this subject. It doesn't strike me as such, but it wouldn't hurt to think about pruning some information. The article was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cannon&oldid=201912423 6,137 words] in length when it was made a Featured Article in March 2008, so maybe it's worth examining the accumulated material and whether its up to scratch. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 22:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

:::I may be a tiny bit biased towards the version that passed FAC as it was partially my work, but I'm intimately familiar with the article and could perhaps take a look in the next few days. If anyone thinks it's necessary, of course. [[User:Keilana|Keilana]]<nowiki>|</nowiki><sup>[[User talk:Keilana|Parlez ici]]</sup> 02:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

== Cannon photo ==

[[File:Cannon on the grass.jpg|thumb|Cannon on the grass at a home in New Jersey.]]
Possible photo for article.--[[User:Tomwsulcer|Tomwsulcer]] ([[User talk:Tomwsulcer|talk]]) 21:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

== Improper(?) reference to Thomas Malthus ==

The end of the "Early modern period" subsection claims that Nathaniel Nye cited Thomas Malthus's writings on artillery in his book ''The Art of Gunnery'', and links to Thomas Robert Malthus' page. As the Malthus in question was born a good hundred years later (and so far as I know never produced any military writings), this seems unlikely. A different Malthus, perhaps? [[Special:Contributions/184.78.4.160|184.78.4.160]] ([[User talk:184.78.4.160|talk]]) 07:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

== Poundage vs. bore diameter ==

The article needs a table relating the "pound" rating of a gun to its bore diameter.  Minimally there should be a description of the definition of poundage in terms of diameter of the shot.  Thanks if you can help.[[User:CountMacula|CountMacula]] ([[User talk:CountMacula|talk]]) 05:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

== A question ==

It seems like before the mid-19th century, cannons were used predominantly on sea, rather than at land.

For instance, typical armies in the Napoleonic wars would have a few hundred cannons. E.g., at the battle of Waterloo, the French had ~250, and the Allies ~150. (The number of Prussian guns is not mentioned in the article, but is presumably comparable.)

In contrast, a typical ship-of-the-line during this era would by itself boast up to a hundred guns. At Trafalgar, the British fleet had 33 ships (including 27 ships-of-the-line) with a total of 2,312 guns by my tally. This is an order of magnitude higher than the number of guns boasted by a typical British army. Of course, the British had more armies, but by the same token, they also had more fleets. The Royal Navy around this time had something like 90 ships of the line and several hundred smaller ships.

Why was the use of cannons geared so much towards naval combat? Why could a nation not gain an advantage for its forces by earmarking the production of its cannons towards land combat, thus outmassing enemies in artillery by many times? What am I missing here? The article does not answer these questions at all. [[Special:Contributions/140.180.241.146|140.180.241.146]] ([[User talk:140.180.241.146|talk]]) 22:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

== Manufacture ==

I could not find any information on manufacture of cannon in the article, and if there are any links they are not easy to find. Is there any particular reason for this? • • • [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 06:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

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== edit needed ==

I suspect the following to be incorrect: "To pack a muzzle-loading cannon, first gunpowder is poured down the bore."

I am certain that the powder is placed in the chamber, which is a recess at the breech end of the bore, rather then just poured in. I, however, don't have a source to provide. [[User:Zedshort|Zedshort]] ([[User talk:Zedshort|talk]]) 17:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
:Would hardly be "muzzle-loading" in that case, would it? [[User:Ian Dalziel|Ian Dalziel]] ([[User talk:Ian Dalziel|talk]]) 20:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
::In fact, the powder charge is delivered to the recessed part of the breech end by a special tool that places the powder there. It is not simply poured into the barrel. If you know nothing about the subject you should not be posting responses. [[User:Zedshort|Zedshort]] ([[User talk:Zedshort|talk]]) 23:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

==Cannon Plural==
BilCat, I just read the reference you indicated. It (Websters) states that cannon and cannons are both correct usage, which is what I wrote, and you said the reference says only "cannon" is correct. Likewise, Answers.com says that both forms are common usage in both the US and UK. A third site, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cannon, also says that both forms are correct. Then there is this site: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4568/cannon-as-plural (admittedly more of a forum for syntax professionals), which describes English as having evolved from cannon to cannons over time. This Cannon article itself says that in American English, "cannons" is more common, and uses "cannons" in a number of places throughout the article. I think you should undo your changes. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 07:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

:Listing in one place here:
* http://grammarist.com/spelling/canon-cannon/
* http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cannon
* http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/cannon
* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cannon
* http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cannon
* http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cannon
* http://www.answers.com/search?q=cannon+plural
* http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4568/cannon-as-plural

Moved Discussion from my talk page: - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 06:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

BilCat, I just read the reference you indicated. It (Websters) states that cannon and cannons are both correct usage, which is what I wrote, and you said the reference says only "cannon" is correct. Likewise, Answers.com says that both forms are common usage in both the US and UK. A third site, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cannon, also says that both forms are correct. Then there is this site: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4568/cannon-as-plural (admittedly more of a forum for syntax professionals), which describes English as having evolved from cannon to cannons over time. This Cannon article itself says that in American English, "cannons" is more common, and uses "cannons" in a number of places throughout the article. I think you should undo your changes. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 07:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

:I'm not sure what Webster's you're using, but mine says the plural is cannon. So no, I won't be changing anything. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat#top|talk]]) 00:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

::http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cannon - it's the same link as the reference on the Cannon page. It says "plural '''cannons''' or '''cannon'''". Also, again, the Cannon page itself uses "cannons." I did not find one single site online that says "cannons" is not acceptable. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 00:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

:::All that links says is "plural usually cannon". - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat#top|talk]]) 02:06, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

::::If I may, this text 'Cannon serves both as the singular and plural of the noun, although the plural ''cannons'' is also correct' has been in the article since it was promoted to Featured Article in 2008. Whatever form was consistently used throughout the article and accepted at [[WP:FAC]] at that time should still be used now unless there is a very good reason not to. Cannon is the plural of cannon in the UK as is aircraft and sheep (not aircrafts and sheeps), what it is anywhere else I couldn't say. I can see that many edits have been wasted over this plurality 'mistake' and I'm also amazed at how many edits have been made to the article since it was promoted though it seems to be a target for vandalism. There are more constructive things to do than argue about something that has been accepted for over six years. [[User:Nimbus227|Nimbus]] [[User talk:Nimbus227|<span style="color:#2F4F4F;">(Cumulus <span style="color:#708090;">nimbus <span style="color:#D3D3D3;">floats by)</span></span></span>]] 03:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

::::::Yes, you may, and thank you. @Trifler, I'm not sure how we can both look at the same linkand see different things. All the link you provide says about plurals is "plural usually cannon", and that's right at the top of the page. Merriam-Webster's is an American dictionary, and that's also what my printed edition says. Sorry if the truth isn't "a compelling argument" to you. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat#top|talk]]) 05:38, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Read further down on that Websters entry. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 05:44, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

::::::::So you ignore the first entry? - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat#top|talk]]) 05:51, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::No, I think Websters, and the other references clearly indicate that both are acceptable and you should not be making edits to remove the "s". Especially in the case of autocannons, where I have never once read it used without an "s". Nor have I ever heard anyone in the U.S. military not use the "s" for the plural form. "Cannons" is pretty much ubiquitous in the U.S. military as well, although "cannon" is used sometimes when referring to the Age of Sail time period. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 06:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

::::::Thank you Nimbus. I agree that BilCat should leave the page the way it was for six years. Also here's a fourth reference saying that both are acceptable, since BilCat just disagreed again: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/cannon. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 05:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

:::::::Nimbus is specifically refering tobthe [[Cannon]] article. That had used "cannon" as a plural for years. See the previous discussion at [[Talk:Cannon/Archive 3#Plural]], where it states "Grammatically either is acceptable. For all articles in the cannon series, we use "cannon" ; per History of cannon, Cannon in the Middle Ages, and others that use this plural in the title." And "I believe most scholars use "cannon" as the plural; I think we should leave it as is." Can you show me where that consensus was changed? - 05:51, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::I had not seen that archived post. I can see that the Cannon article uses "cannons" in a number of places, and I see that there's a reference titled "The Cannons of San Francisco" on it. I also see something on Websters that I didn't notice before, which is their Concise Encyclopedia entry, which says:

::::::::''"Long-range artillery piece, as distinguished from other big guns such as the howitzer or mortar. Early cannons, appearing in Europe in the 15th century, were smooth-bored and forged of iron, weighed 6,000–8,000 lbs (2,800–3,600 kg) and were loaded through the muzzle. They were mounted on wheeled carriages, which were thrown backward when the cannon was fired. Rifled bores and breechloading were adopted in the later 19th century, and new mechanisms such as the hydraulic buffer absorbed the recoil. Before 1850 ammunition was either cannister, grapeshot, or round, solid cannonballs and black powder, but rifled bores made possible the use of elongated projectiles, which had a longer range. The shrapnel shell was widely used in the 19th–20th century. Modern cannons, of high-grade steel, are towed on split-trail carriages or are mounted on tracked vehicles; a common calibre is 155 mm (6 in.). Many helicopters, airplanes, and naval vessels are equipped with multibarreled, Gatling-type rotary cannons firing 20-mm exploding shells."''

::::::::In summary, I strongly believe "autocannons" should be accepted here since it is accepted everywhere else, and I honestly believe it's the most common usage worldwide. The dozens, if not hundreds of previous people editing the Autocannon article used "autocannons" so it's not like I'm alone in this. I certainly feel I represent at least some of the previous editors on this. It was all fine until BilCat came along. I also think both "cannon" and "cannons" should be considered acceptable on all Cannon pages. Four different sources say that both are acceptable. I am willing to consider that separately from the Autocannon page. It's not like I'm saying everything should use an "s." I'm saying both should be acceptable here on Wikipedia. --[[User:Trifler|Trifler]] ([[User talk:Trifler|talk]]) 06:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

===Autocannon Plural===
I had a chance to talk with a couple of U.S. military guys I know over the holidays, and I mentioned the Cannon Plural discussion above with them. They felt that "cannons" was more common worldwide in this day and age, but left it at that. They felt more strongly about "autocannons" however. They couldn't think of any military that doesn't use it with an "s". They said that countries that use "cannon" as plural still use "autocannons". One of them was stationed in Germany for a few years and said that's what the German soldiers he spoke with used "autocannons" even though they used "cannon" as plural. Ditto for the one French soldier he spoke with. This was while speaking in English in both cases. They told me that the Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and S Korean militaries all use "autocannons", when speaking in English. 

So I realize none of that discussion is reference-able, but I think the Autocannon article should be excluded from the current cannon plurality policy. I think they're correct when they say that even amongst people who use "cannon" as plural, a very large percentage of them say "autocannons". The Autocannon article used "autocannons" from the time it was created until it was changed just recently. --[[Special:Contributions/174.31.172.28|174.31.172.28]] ([[User talk:174.31.172.28|talk]]) 11:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

== Development of naval artillery (again) ==

The development of naval artillery is described in this article as though it began in England in the 1300s (the "three cannon and one hand gun" of the ''Christopher'') and then went straight on to fully-perfected broadside amarmanent, also in England. This is quite misleading. I completely ignores all development in the Mediterranean region, which dominated European politics until at least the late 16th century. The first successful gun platform was actually the [[galley]], not nefs, cogs, caravels or such, and was in regular use by the late 15th century. Solutions for heavy guns on sailing ships were much more complex and developed only gradually. Initially, they were direclty influenced by gun galleys and attempted to emulate them, or to adapt to tactics that focused on boarding rather than destruction.

I've brought this up before, but without getting any reactions. If it weren't for the FA status, I wouldn't mind much, but I believe this particular information gap borders on a template-taggable issue. The almost exclusive focus on the English/British and US navies makes it even more problematic.

[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 10:05, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Since you haven't received a reply, I'll just say that if you have access to information on cannon development in the Mediterranean region, feel free to add it. --[[Special:Contributions/174.31.172.28|174.31.172.28]] ([[User talk:174.31.172.28|talk]]) 11:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

== new image ==
I provided a new image which might potentially be useful for this article.
[[File:Kanonenlauf.JPG|thumb|Kanonenlauf]]  <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Steffenz|Steffenz]] ([[User talk:Steffenz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Steffenz|contribs]]) 19:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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== Changes to narrative of cannon use spreading following development in China ==

A pair of edits recently changed the sequence of early cannon use following origins in China. This seems to hinge on earliest subsequent use in Western Europe or in Islamic world. Surely with discussion a unified approach can be worked out. — [[User:Neonorange|Neonorange]] ([[User talk:Neonorange|talk]]) 17:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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* [[commons:File:Artillery gun crew-illustration.jpeg|Artillery gun crew-illustration.jpeg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2018-07-05T16:38:10.510210 | Artillery gun crew-illustration.jpeg -->
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== Terms for directions on the cannon ==

In the ''Cannon materials, parts, and terms'' section, it says:

"In what follows, the words near, close, and behind will refer to those parts towards the thick, closed end of the piece, and far, front, in front of, and before to the thinner, open end."

Is it really necessary to have to define three or four terms for each direction?  (Nor are they complete - 'foremost' and 'forward' are not listed and are both used.)

Would it be sacrilege to use ordinary English "front" and "back"?  (See [[WP:JARGON]].)

It would also be good to avoid words like "piece" which are not readily understandable to all readers, where "cannon" could easily be used. [[User:TSP|TSP]] ([[User talk:TSP|talk]]) 13:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

==Anything worth "importing"?==
I'm planning a severe trim of the [[History of gunpowder]] article - in particular the section "Development of the Classic Gun". If the text and refs there belong anywhere it's probably this Cannon article so I suggest having a look and "importing" anything that is worth keeping, because once I delete it it will be gone from WP for good. Just remember to tag your change with ''"Text and references copied from 'History of gunpowder', check History there for full attribution"''. - [[User:Snori|Snori]] ([[User talk:Snori|talk]]) 00:13, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
==Do Not Censor this==
This absolutely belongs in the second paragraph of the Introduction,

The Mamluks used hand cannons in battle against the Mongols in 1260 at the [[Battle of Ain Jalut]].

The Mamluks in 1260 is before the Chinese  in 1288,  and this fact must be included in the Introduction. [[Special:Contributions/47.201.187.246|47.201.187.246]] ([[User talk:47.201.187.246|talk]]) 01:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
:The way that WP works is that the Intro should summarize the body. In this case the body has a whole lot to say (under "Islamic world"), and it's pretty clear that there are several points of view - as indeed there are with the Chinese dates. Happy to discuss, but please don't simply try to 'win' by reposting. - [[User:Snori|Snori]] ([[User talk:Snori|talk]]) 03:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
:See [[User talk:47.201.187.246|your Talk page]].  You may not use Wikipedia as a source for itself, and any edit in which you attempt to do so will be reverted. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<span style="color: #006633;">General <i>Ization</i></span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:General Ization|<i style="color: #000666;">Talk </i>]] </sup> 13:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
::Then  use the  same  sources  for  both  wikipedia  articles.  It  belongs  here  too.  Put it in. [[Special:Contributions/47.201.187.246|47.201.187.246]] ([[User talk:47.201.187.246|talk]]) 18:35, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

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== Cascabel spelling ==

Having read the angst over cannons versus cannon as a plural, I hesitate to bring this up.
The side view illustration is helpful. However the spelling le is unusual. According to Wiktionary “le” is an alternative spelling but it has no source and no quotations. I’ve never seen this spelling before and it isn’t in my goto dictionary. 
Wikipedia has an article [[Cascabel (artillery)]] which I suggest be a link somewhere, if only for the illustration of the parts of a cascabel. Perhaps we are stuck with the illustration, so I’d like to see a note attached re spelling. (Or globalize and call it a cul de lampe.) Load the spelling cannon (or cannons)! [[User:Humphrey Tribble|Humphrey Tribble]] ([[User talk:Humphrey Tribble|talk]]) 06:19, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

== Terminology ==

From the article as it stands, it is clear that there are different entire sets of terminology that are incompatible with each other. For example, when we refer to an aircraft cannon, we do not mean that it fires cannonballs of 42 pounds or more. This is not an argument waiting to be resolved, it is simply several sets of jargon that nobody has explained yet.

When '''I''' say "cannon", I mean something very precise: "a standalone piece of field artillery that is much too large to be lifted off the ground except by heavy machinery". However, that is a definition I have made up out of thin air, because the people who write "Cannon" articles won't explain it to me. :D  [[User:TooManyFingers|TooManyFingers]] ([[User talk:TooManyFingers|talk]]) 23:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2024: "history of cannon" ==

{{edit semi-protected|Cannon|answered=yes}}
The '''History''' section of this article includes a direct to a main article. The main article is titled '''History of cannons''' but for some reason this article has it as '''History of cannon''', with a redirect to the former. Though not strictly necessary "history of cannon" sounds pretty silly, and I request an "s" to be added on the end to be in line with the very article it's linking to. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C|2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C|talk]]) 21:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:AlphaBetaGamma|ABG]] <small> ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGamma|Talk/Report any mistakes here]]) </small> 23:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you! Have an exquisite day. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C|2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:9CB2:25FF:FE90:E63C|talk]]) 00:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

== Standard use of one plural for cannon(s) through article? ==

The article clearly mentions that either “cannon” or “cannons” can be used as the plural.

I believe it would be easier reading of one of these was used consistently throughout the article rather than sometimes using one and sometimes the other.

Hearing other opinions would be helpful, as it would to hear whether people would then prefer the use of “cannon” or “cannons”.

Thanks. [[User:Emma.Dolphin|Emma.Dolphin]] ([[User talk:Emma.Dolphin|talk]]) 12:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
: since you ask for an opinion, my opinion is the plural should be "cannon".  Texts from the era of smooth-bore cannon far more often use "cannon" as the plural, whereas more recent texts tend to use "gun" for a rifled cannon, and "cannons" only when trying to be inclusive of guns, howitzers, etc.  Thus references to cannon mostly relate to the older era, and the usage of that era should be preferred.

== In popular culture ==

There are weapons similar to cannons in the book series [[The Wheel of Time|Wheel of Time]].https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragons

[[User:Marcus343|Marcus343]] ([[User talk:Marcus343|talk]]) 09:01, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

== according to coploit songhai empire and swahill coast have access to cannons ==

should we add it to africa part? [[Special:Contributions/2600:480A:4A51:9300:F1AB:5254:1567:63E3|2600:480A:4A51:9300:F1AB:5254:1567:63E3]] ([[User talk:2600:480A:4A51:9300:F1AB:5254:1567:63E3|talk]]) 15:22, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

== Naval development of cannon ==

It was noted more than a decade ago that this article is almost entirely lacking in reference to naval developments in the "early modern" era, and what information is there is almost entirely relevant to the Royal Navy (altho there is a picture of a French naval cannon, sans any mention of it's nationality).  Given that the development of cannon between 1500 and 1900 was almost entirely driven by naval requirements this makes the whole "early modern" inaccurate to the point of being almost useless.

It would be nice if someone would take the time to make a serious effort to improve that section.

== Brass cannon ==

Given that there are frequent mentions in various histories of "brass" cannon, the article should at some point clarify that brass cannon do not actually exist (brass being far too weak an alloy for the purpose).  Such cannon were actually made from what is now called bronze.  Prior to the industrial age the words brass and bronze were used more or less interchangeably, and period authors would often speak of brass for copper-tin alloys which are properly bronzes.

== Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2025 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Cannon|answered=yes}}
Change “cannon” to plural form: “These cannon[s] could fire heavy stone balls a mile…

Change “cannon” to plural form: “These cannon[s] could fire heavy stone balls a mile… [[User:Djsfmhk|Djsfmhk]] ([[User talk:Djsfmhk|talk]]) 09:21, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Alpha Beta Delta Lambda|Alpha Beta Delta Lambda]] ([[User talk:Alpha Beta Delta Lambda|talk]]) 13:39, 1 June 2025 (UTC)