View source for Talk:British Rail Class 180

{{ArticleHistory
| action1       = GAN
| action1date   = 14 January 2010
| action1link   = Talk:British Rail Class 180/GA1
| action1result = Failed
| action1oldid  = 336171995

| currentstatus = FGAN
| topic         = Transport
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|
{{WikiProject Trains|importance=Low|UK=yes|UK-importance=mid|passenger=yes|portalSAweek=2, 2010}}
{{WikiProject United Kingdom |importance=Low}}
}}

==Naming convention==
There is a discussion about the naming convention to use for articles about British locomotive and multiple unit classes at [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (British railway locomotive and multiple unit classes)]]. Your comments are more than welcome. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 22:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

==Cleanup==
What needs to be done to clean up this article? --[[User:Blue73|Fuelboy]] 13:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

== Future operations ==

Regarding use on TransPennine Express Manchester to Scotland services - the units will not be able to run at 125mph on this route, as non-tilt rolling stock on the WCML is limited to 110mph.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.144.251.46|81.144.251.46]] ([[User talk:81.144.251.46|talk]]) 09:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Future operations == 

Regarding Northern, they currently have 2 units and will get a 3rd. The quote that Northern is currently training its driver trainers is pretty common sense really and does not require citation in my opinion. Who else will train the drivers to drive the trains apart from the driver trainers? I added the "Northern" bit on. This was purely fact based and was edited by someone with relevant citation. Since then, things have been edited again and items deleted for no reason. ([[Special:Contributions/84.69.246.61|84.69.246.61]] ([[User talk:84.69.246.61|talk]]) 11:24, 3 November 2008 (UTC)).

== So, are any 180s actually in use right now? ==

The article doesn't tell me. All we have are statements that trains "were to be used" or are proposed to be used. As I write this, are any 180s in regular passenger-carrying service? [[Special:Contributions/81.158.2.229|81.158.2.229]] ([[User talk:81.158.2.229|talk]]) 01:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

At least 3 with FGW. These will go once a EMT HST arrives. [[User:Btline|Btline]] ([[User talk:Btline|talk]]) 14:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:And will there be any in service anywhere once that HST arrives? Basically, what I'm asking for is something a bit more concrete than proposals. If there ''isn't'' anything more concrete, then that should be said. I ought to be able to look at this article at any time and get an idea of where this train is being used right now. [[Special:Contributions/81.158.2.229|81.158.2.229]] ([[User talk:81.158.2.229|talk]]) 16:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

::The article clearly states (or at least did once) that all Adelantes will be withdrawn from FGW once the EMT HST arrives later this year. To be honest, nothing much has been confirmed so it is all speculation anyway! [[User:Btline|Btline]] ([[User talk:Btline|talk]]) 17:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Right now 2 with Hull Trains, 3 with First Great Western and two driver training at Northern.--[[Special:Contributions/81.23.56.15|81.23.56.15]] ([[User talk:81.23.56.15|talk]]) 13:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== northern rail ==

northern has 4 class 180 in warm storage at present with a viev to using them on services to huddersfield, manchester airport and blackpool they will operate from the manchester and liverpools depots if they come into service, at present they are being held back as they are in discussions with aslef over training and safety issues of the units.[[Special:Contributions/86.26.49.199|86.26.49.199]] ([[User talk:86.26.49.199|talk]])  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 18:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==tidy==

I've reorganised the article, addding some stuff and also removing some stuff to. Operations are now by region, there are new sections for technical stuff.

Some of the links are problematic and have gone dead - Train operating companies tend to spring clean their websites it seems...

The article probably needs more references (it does).

Hope the tidy meets with your approval.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:FengRail|FengRail]] ([[User talk:FengRail|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/FengRail|contribs]]) 03:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==section [[British_Rail_Class_180#South-West_England]]==

This section makes some claims regarding reliability of the units, as well as other uncited info. such as what FGW planned to do. 

It would be helpful if whoever added it could provide references - as we can't just write what companies intentions were without references - as far as I know all this could have been made up. Thanks.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.102.43.12|87.102.43.12]] ([[User talk:87.102.43.12|talk]]) 12:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==3 FGW units==
removed this from the end of [[British_Rail_Class_180#South-West_England]] ie http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=British_Rail_Class_180&diff=280116275&oldid=280105482 

"The final 3 units went off-lease on 27th March 2009."

I understand this must be about the 3 FGW western units - but what exactly does 'off lease mean' does it mean they are inactive, or moved somewhere else - also references please ..[[User:FengRail|FengRail]] ([[User talk:FengRail|talk]]) 00:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

== Article Inaccuracy ==

The figures in the section titled 'Fleet Details' (between 'Future Operations' and 'References') is, I believe, inaccurate.

I added up the number of Class 180s listed (6 + 3 + 2 + 2) which only came to 13 yet the 'information pane' on the fleet says there are 14 Class 180s, not 13.

I'm not a total expert on Wikipedia but I'm certain that I haven't missed anything in the article to say that 1 isn't around or anything.

Any chance someone could please look into this?

Many Thanks!

[[User:TXCPoisonous|TXC]] ([[User talk:TXCPoisonous|talk]]) 03:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:It would appear that trainset number 180101 is unaccounted for. [[User:NRTurner|NRTurner]] ([[User talk:NRTurner|talk]]) 10:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

{{/GA1}}

== Zephyr ==

The article says

"Grand Central renamed their units as Zephyrs leading some enthusiasts to nickname the units A to Z.[5]"

However this statement doesn't seem to be consistent with the only reference to Zephyr I can find on the Grand Central web site, which in the launch edition of the Grand Central Magazine says quite clearly that Zephyr is a named train (the 0641 departure from Sunderland). 

[http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/GCM_Issue1.pdf http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/GCM_Issue1.pdf]

"Grand Central runs two named trains. The Zephyr leaves from Sunderland on Monday-Friday mornings at 06:41. The northbound departure at 16.50 runs as The 21st Century Limited. The naming is a homage to the American 20th Century Limited, now run as the Lake Shore Limited by Amtrak between New York and Chicago."

I would simply have removed the claim, but it is supported by a reference so I'm reluncant to do so immediately.  Is anyone here in a position to verify the reference to Today's Railway?
[[User:Roybadami|Roy Badami]] ([[User talk:Roybadami|talk]]) 17:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

:I haven't seen Today's Railways but I see other railway magazines and I don't think I have seen any suggestion there or anywhere else that these trains are now being called Zephyrs. As you say, it seems to be a confusion with one of Grand Central's named trains. I am inclined to delete the sentence altogether unless somebody comes up with an authoritative quote. [[User:Alarics|Alarics]] ([[User talk:Alarics|talk]]) 12:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

::The reason I was reluctant to delete this straight off is that a reference was given, which I haven't had the opportunity to check.  I am highly skeptical of the claim, though, even if it was reported in the railway press.  Given the Grand Central literature I cite above that clearly identifies '''Zephyr''' as a [[named train]], and given no one has expressed an opinion to the contrary, I'm going to remove this claim from the article.[[User:Roybadami|Roy Badami]] ([[User talk:Roybadami|talk]]) 15:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree. We can always re-insert later it if it turns out to be true after all. [[User:Alarics|Alarics]] ([[User talk:Alarics|talk]]) 19:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
::::Yeah, probably the right approach. Even if it's true it shouldn't be in the lead anyway, but under "Grand Central". [[User:Alzarian16|Alzarian16]] ([[User talk:Alzarian16|talk]]) 19:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

==Commons images==
Hi. Just to let you know, the [[:Commons:Category:British Rail Class 180|Commons category for Class 180s]] is now completely sorted by operator and livery. -''[[User:Mattbuck|mattbuck]]'' <small>([[User talk:Mattbuck|Talk]])</small> 22:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

==Possible change to the title of this article==
This article is currently named in accordance the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways]] naming conventions for British rolling stock allocated a [[TOPS]] number. A proposal to change this convention and/or its scope is being discussed at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Naming convention]], where your comments would be welcome.

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[British Rail Class 180]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=698914364 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081120003236/http://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/hitchin/hitchintraffic.htm to http://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/hitchin/hitchintraffic.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.

{{sourcecheck|checked=true}}

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 01:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on [[British Rail Class 180]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=748567719 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131221005408/http://www.rssb.co.uk/RGS/Pages/MECHANICALANDELECTRICALCOUPLINGINDEX.aspx to http://www.rssb.co.uk/RGS/Pages/MECHANICALANDELECTRICALCOUPLINGINDEX.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071222215025/http://www.thisislondon.co.uk:80/standard/article-23411609-details/Rail+firm+goes+back+to+30-years+to+boost+reliability/article.do to http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23411609-details/Rail+firm+goes+back+to+30-years+to+boost+reliability/article.do

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 22:34, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

== East Coast services ==

I removed some content from the East Coast section because the sentence was not supported by the given reference. [[User:Absolutelypuremilk|Absolutelypuremilk]] ([[User talk:Absolutelypuremilk|talk]]) 22:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

== The you'll be going nowhere meme ==

On social media platforms, there is a meme about the Class 180 called 'You'll be going nowhere'. 
This meme originated from the Class 180 Faults and Failures video made by Spa Films in 2003, presented by Paul Tyreman. Since it was on UTube, people started using the you'll be going nowhere meme.
Should this be a section for this page? [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:8D0E:1001:4C85:5A3C:4B77:B1A6|2A00:23C7:8D0E:1001:4C85:5A3C:4B77:B1A6]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C7:8D0E:1001:4C85:5A3C:4B77:B1A6|talk]]) 15:59, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

:I second this. It could be placed into an “In popular culture” section of the article. [[User:Slenderman7676|Slender]] ([[User talk:Slenderman7676|talk]]) 10:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

== 180110 ==

I've now twice removed the claims of unit 180110 being shortened to 4 cars as both instances of these claims being added were unsourced. I don't care that the claim is included, as long as a reliable source is provided. [[User:XtraJovial|XtraJovial]] ([[User talk:XtraJovial|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/XtraJovial|contribs]]) 21:23, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

:It appears that @[[User:Mattdaviesfsic|Mattdaviesfsic‎]] has located a reliable source in a Railways Illustrated article, that doesn't go against [[WP:UGC]]. [[User:Danners430|Danners430]] ([[User talk:Danners430|talk]]) 10:05, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

== August 2022 ==

Recently the article was the subject of a heavy edit that introduced 10k of text. While much of it was good, it also did introduce some text that was excessive, notably to the lead section. Per [[WP:LEAD]], the section should summarize the main points not get bogged down in detail. That is what the body is for. Other examples are verbosity, e.g. prefacing train operators with train operating company, open-access operator etc, not necessary when there is a linked article. Not suggesting my edits are by any means the finished article, but there was (and remains) some editing required. [[User:Iemeer18|Iemeer18]] ([[User talk:Iemeer18|talk]]) 04:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
:Things are better in your second go through, though I strongly would have encouraged (as per [[WP:BRD]]) that when reverted, a discussion (e.g. involving more than just one person) should have taken place on the article talk page before shoving almost all of the same content back in, as that's dangerously close to edit warring. Try to be careful on this point.
:The original lead you advocated for was positively anorexic - it completely avoided many key points (not an word on the unreliability issues that saw multiple operators troubled or even outright reject the type, for one). [[WP:LEAD]], which you've already raised, recommends that an article with more than 30,000 characters (which this is) should have lead of three to four paragraphs - you were originally pushing for one paragraph for the lead, which is way too tiny by the very guidance you've raised but seemingly have overlooked. My version, in comparison, was three paragraphs (on the smaller side of the '3 to 4' guidance) and was modelled on that of the Class 158's lead of a similar size and scope. And I will dispute that proposed operators should never be mentioned, as per one of your edit reasons - there are plenty of other articles where this is the case.
:We shouldn't have to open up other articles, even linked ones, to understand something as basic as what an organisation does. It takes one to two words to mention that Angel Trains isn't an operator, but a leasor, while Hull Trains (identical name styling, so one could easily think they're another leasor) is a train operator. If that's verbosity, I'm guilty and won't deny that.
:I'd really appreciate it if, when adding new cites, there was an attempt to keep the style consistent, as per [[WP:CITEVAR]]. Before it was a random mashing of various styles, every cite was consistently redone into the majority styling - and you've proceeded to break that uniformity against policy. Please try to keep this consistency, it is policy.
:I'm not understanding some of the removals (not 'copyediting', outright removal), for instance, the background section no longer had a word about that sister company just so happening to order closely relate, near identical units around the exact same time - it was good for contrast as to what was similar, and different between the two types; particularly its higher speed - it also made for an interesting contrast as the class 175, until the Class 180, hasn't suffered such underwhelmingly terrible reliability. The 'background' section is positively anemic - compare that against that of the class 175's background section, or many other rolling stock articles. There was more detail, its been removed, and that's not just copyediting, and the edit summaries don't explain this. It really should have been explained before edit warring. [[User:Kyteto|Kyteto]] ([[User talk:Kyteto|talk]]) 12:01, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
::By reinstating the lead as it was, multiple errors have been reinstated, e.g. {{tq|Starting in 2009, Grand Central also leased several Class 180s to replace its Intercity 125s}}, incorrect as Grand Central operated InterCity 125s until 2017. There are numerous others.
::Some of the text is padded out with no benefit. It should be concise and to the point. Examples are:
::*{{tq|produced by the French transportation company Alstom. The fleet was manufactured at Alstom's facility in Washwood Heath, Birmingham, between 2000 and 2001 on behalf of the train operating company First Great Western}}. This can be written more tightly as {{tq|produced by Alstom at its Washwood Heath factory in 2000/01 for First Great Western}}.
::*{{tq|In October 1997, it was announced that FGW had placed an order}}, this can be written more tightly as {{tq|In October 1997, FGW placed an order}}
::*{{tq|undertook the replacement of}}, a long winded way of saying {{tq|replaced}}
::There is no need to preface every company that has a linked article with 'train operating company' etc or what country it is headquartered in, much like there is no need to preface every mention of ExxonMobil with 'American oil corporation' or Tesco with 'supermarket'. A reader who is unsure will be able to find out what the company does by hovering over the article without opening it.
::There is no need to cite anything in the lead per [[WP:LEADCITE]], as it is (or should be) cited in the body.
::The comparison with the 175s is of limited value, not as if they were part of the same order or have ever operated together, FirstGroup just happened to place two orders with the same manufacturer.
::{{U|Kyteto}}, for all of your complaining about lack of information in edit summaries, you continue to make massive edits with one word summaries of 'redraft'. Do as I say and not as I do? [[User:Iemeer18|Iemeer18]] ([[User talk:Iemeer18|talk]]) 02:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:::I'd like to note again that the talk page should have been engaged before edit warring against the consensus of multiple editors at this point.
:::''{{tq|Starting in 2009, Grand Central also leased several Class 180s to replace its Intercity 125s}}, incorrect"'' From my perspective, you're incorrect on it being incorrect. GC operated 125s, started bringing in 180s, the 125s went away, the 180s took on all the routes that the 125s did - the 180s, in the very definition of the word 'replace', replaced the 125s. Just because it wasn't instantaneous and there was a period of side-by-side running doesn't change that, gradually, GC got in 180s and dumped their 125s to exclusively use those 180s to do everything the 125s did. You're claiming the lead is asserting the transition happened the millisecond that the first 180 arrived, which is a strawman exaggeration - many transitions take years to execute, how many years did it take for the GWR's SuperExpresses to replace (most of, a portion of the fleet is still running!) the 125s? Or, are you arguing that that this replacement programme wasn't a replacement at all as there was so many years between the first arrival and today with GWR 125s still rolling around? This argument is pedantic and disingenuous.
:::''"{{tq|In October 1997, it was announced that FGW had placed an order}}, this can be written more tightly as {{tq|In October 1997, FGW placed an order}}"'' Sure, if we ignore the need to cite that to be true. These kind of contracts are commonly negotiated for months, or even years. Are we certain that the order was placed at the same time as its announcement to the public? It might sound asinine, but yes - this happens, I can give examples of planes and trains where the announcement of the order came a long time, even years, after the actual placement. Some customers don't want to be quick to shout out the deal until the project's sufficiently advanced and shown itself to be working to schedule. So, if we're to go beyond the evidence to say something simpler that the cite doesn't support, we're going to need new material that supports that. [[User:Kyteto|Kyteto]] ([[User talk:Kyteto|talk]]) 19:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:::''"such like there is no need to preface every mention of ExxonMobil with 'American oil corporation' or Tesco with 'supermarket'"'' That's a bit of a strawman argument - I wasn't prefacing this on every mention, just the first mention. Please don't exaggerate. And ExxonMobile and Tesco are far more well known and obvious as to who they are. Is it as obvious that Angel Trains is a leasor, or that Hull Trains (same naming convention) is not a fellow leasor but a train operator? One shouldn't have to open up other articles to establish something so basic that can be qualified in one or two words on the ''first mention''. [[User:Kyteto|Kyteto]] ([[User talk:Kyteto|talk]]) 19:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:::''"The comparison with the 175s is of limited value"'' In your opinion, yes. My opinion is different. Why did they bother ordering the 180, and not just more 175s? Developing a separate design, with an entirely different powerplant, and waste millions on separately certifying it? And why when they were so closely related did the performance one stink to high heaven while the other sailed by relatively unscathed? The two have been inherently compared and contrasted between. On the matter of its inclusion, I'm happy to leave it to a matter of consensus (which is what this whole matter should be more or less settled by, not edit wars and explaination-free reverts), which is currently leaning in favour of keeping it by my count. [[User:Kyteto|Kyteto]] ([[User talk:Kyteto|talk]]) 19:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
:::''" you continue to make massive edits with one word summaries of 'redraft'. Do as I say and not as I do?"'' Yep, you got that right. Because of context. A non-controversial edit on a completely unrelated article is completely uncomparable with say, an editor reverting recently added content with exactly zero words in their reasoning. Something as controversial as outright contradiction should have an explanation. Not every edit holds that controversy, or the expectation of a decent explanation. Or to simply put it, I'll take my one word edits over your zero word edits any day. In one sentence: Reverting other editors, especially multiple, ought to be explained in length, while many non-controversial edits don't need a lengthy explanation - you surely know this yourself. [[User:Kyteto|Kyteto]] ([[User talk:Kyteto|talk]]) 19:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

== East Midlands?? ==

On EMR’s website they have the 180 listed under their fleet, do they need to be added here as an operator? >> https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/intercity [[User:RJ2677|RJ2677]] ([[User talk:RJ2677|talk]]) 19:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

:No, somebody at EMR needs to remember to take it off their website. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">[[User:XAM2175|<span style="color:midnightblue">XAM2175</span>]]</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:XAM2175|<sup><i style="color:darkslategrey">(T)</i></sup>]] 19:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)