View source for Talk:Brig

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|
{{WikiProject Ships|<!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations. --> }}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=B
|B-Class-1=yes
|B-Class-2=yes
|B-Class-3=yes
|B-Class-4=yes
|B-Class-5=yes
|importance=
|collaboration-candidate=
|past-collaboration=
|peer-review= 
|old-peer-review=
<!-- Task force tags -->
|Ancient-Near-East-task-force=
|Australian-task-force=
|Aviation-task-force=
|British-task-force=
|Canadian-task-force=
|Chinese-task-force=
|Classical-task-force=
|French-task-force=
|Maritime-task-force=yes
|Memorials-task-force=
|Middle-Ages-task-force=
|Napoleonic-task-force=
|Polish-task-force=
|US-task-force=
|Weaponry-task-force=
|WWI-task-force=
|WWII-task-force=
}}
}}
==Needs to be reviewed by Military history WikiProject==
I came here off the [[Wikipedia:Most wanted stubs]] page, made additions and destubbed the article. I had [[User:Beland]] check the work and he removed the stub class rating that [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history]] had on this talk page and reccommended that I request they classify it. If it has areas that need to be improved or are missing I hope they will list them here after their review is done.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 16:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Assessment was made below--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 20:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

==Brig, Switzerland?==
Text removed from [[brigantine]]:

'''''Brig''' redirects here, for an alternate use see: [[Brig, Switzerland]]''

The target article does not exist. Suggest adding

''This article is about the [[sailing|sailing vessel]]. For the town in [[Switzerland]], see [[Brig, Switzerland]].''

if and when it does (assuming it's a town). [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 17:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The town has a wiki-page moving last suggested formulation to top of article suggeston.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 16:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

There are more articles named brig so went with other uses tag.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 16:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

== Must have two square sails to be a brig. ==

All the sources I'm seeing are saying that to be a brig both sails must be square not as the current article says "at least one". I think the modern usage takes precedence and its not as modern as you might think because I found a LOC ref to a brig George Washington had and they say that at that time 1774 there was already a common distinction between Brig and Brigantine. I'm going to change this if I find historical usage that indicates that at one point a ship could be a brig with just one square sail I'll note it in a historical perspective segment.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 01:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This info is all in the segment "Development of the brig".--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 18:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

== On merging ==

I don't think these articles should be merged, while the brig evolved from the brigantine they had seperate histories after that and to try and weave them together into one article would confuse the reader. When these articles were both small that might have made sense, but I think this article can now stand on its own and perhaps the brigantine article should be cleaned up and expanded.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 18:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

: Were ships converted between brig and brigantine rigs with any frequency? If not, I don't think a merge is called for. -- [[User:Akb4|Akb4]] 20:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

== Assessment ==
Just looking over the article, I would say expanding the introduction and adding an infobox should be enough to move this up to "B class" status.  For now I still think it is a "Start-class". Cheers--[[User:Looper5920|Looper5920]] 19:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

These were added and Looper5920 upgraded class to B.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 20:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

==list of brigs==
I alphabetized the list of brigs. Removing the Mary Celeste, as the painting on her page makes clear that she was a brigantine. Chrono would likely be a better order than alpha, but I wasn't quite up for that. -- [[User:Akb4|Akb4]] 20:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

== NO Brig, Brigantine ==

Sorry, my English is very bad. I hope, you'll nevertheless understand me.

What you describe is no Brig, it" a Brigantine:
Brig has '''both masts full square-sail-rigged!'''
Brigantine is different in having main mast full or partetly fore-and-aft sail rigged.
That this is not only my opinion and aswell not based on different definitions in engl. or german did show me aswell your own article [[Brigantine]]: 
:::''is a principally fore-and-aft rig with a square rigged foremast, <BR>'''as opposed to a brig which is square rigged on both masts.'''''
So of course aswell the Lady Washington is no brig, but brigantine and her foto is ''here'' wrong. As wrong as the whole infobox: Place of origin is not Mediterranean - might be Atlantik, might be Chanal. Weight, length and crews are nonsens, brigs are only specyfied on their rigg: if you'll build tomorrow a 100-m-2-mast-square-rigged ship, it will aswell be a brig.
Please, change these misstakes, before no-sailors will begin to lough.
--[[User:Skipper Michael|Skipper Michael]] 18:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is hard to understand what you are saying. There are references provided concerning the rigging if you take issue with them provide alternative references backing your position. The Lady Washington (recreation) is a brig as shown on her own article page and if one follows the external link to her own internet homepage it states the same thing. Remember within Wikipedia any claims you wish to make must have references to third-party experts.--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 16:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

== Brig Unicorn = PotC's "Black Pearl"? ==

Am finding conflicting info regarding the use of Brig Unicorn from St. Lucia and its appearances in Pirates of the Caribbean.  It's being marketed on various St Lucia websites and elsewhere as being the Black Pearl in at least the first film (and with appearances as other ships in the other 2 films).  The official unofficial PotC website [http://www.keeptothecode.com Keep to the Code] said that the brig played a different role in the movie (at least [http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:YnNEkd4Pu44J:forums.keeptothecode.com/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D370065%26sid%3D12c6863cbc94cd3307c8bc2068bcfa0e+%22Brig+Unicorn%22+%2B%22black+pearl%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us in the discussion forums]).   If someone can shed some light if they know more and update both this page with the Unicorn's participation as well as adding it to the appropriate PotC / Black Pearl page, that would be swell. [[User:SpikeJones|SpikeJones]] 20:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
==Military prison==
How'd the transition get made from brig to military prison, etymologically speaking? Probably relevant here, innit? [[User:MrZaius|<span style="color:Blue;">'''MrZaius'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:MrZaius|'''<span style="color:Blue;">talk</span>''']]</sup> 13:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the use of these vessels as prison ships led to the use; see
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=brig&searchmode=none
should we make a note of this in the article?
:--[[User:Wowaconia|Wowaconia]] 23:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== POP Culture ==

The brig is also the title of the 19th episode, 3rd season, of the tv series Lost. The main event of the episode takes place inside a brig.

== Move? ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

'''No consensus''' to move as proposed.  The discussion makes clear that the proposed move is not correct.  However the discussion raises the issue of what is the primary use of brig?  That question was raised but not given, in my opinion, a fair hearing.  So if someone wants to raise that as a possible rename to some form of [[brig (ship)]], feel free to open a new discussion. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 03:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 

[[Brig]] → {{no redirect|1=Brigantine}} &mdash; Both articles describe the same thing, except for a small paragraph that can be moved to the article "Military Prison" [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 09:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

* But page [[Brig]] says "''They [= brigs] are not to be confused with a [[brigantine]] which has different rigging.''". Does "brig" mean one thing in England and another thing in USA? Can someone who knows about ships' rigging please comment? [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 11:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' What's going on?  A brig and a brigantine are not the same thing (technically quite distinct, in fact).  Why all the moves, and where is the discussion? [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 11:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
**The articles correctly distinguish between a '''brig''' (two masts, both square rigged) and a '''brigantine''' (two masts, only the forward one square rigged).  The technical distinction is important, and thoroughly encyclopaedic. I'm not saying both articles couldn't use a re-write to improve quality, though. [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 15:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

* I obeyed the move request, then reverted it and queried it. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 11:41, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
* At 09:46, 23 December 2010 [[User:InternetMeme]] moved [[Brigantine]] to [[Brigantine (old article)]]. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 12:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''; both articles state that they are distinct.  [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 13:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''; the differences in rigging are very significant to the sailor. [[User:Czrisher|Czrisher]] ([[User talk:Czrisher|talk]]) 22:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' most stringently; a brig is not a brigantine, or vice-versa. Hence the different names. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 23:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

*'''Procedural speedy close''' the nominator made out of process moves to take away an existing article into limbospace to seemingly hide it ([[Brigantine (old article)]]), then makes a '''merge request''' here, which is not a requested move at all. The removal of edit history required by the requested move is against policy [[WP:MAD]]. [[Special:Contributions/65.94.232.153|65.94.232.153]] ([[User talk:65.94.232.153|talk]]) 05:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose and speedy close''', these are two distinct topics, both correctly named, and this appears to be a merge request rather than a move and proposer's other actions seem questionable too. Clean up and [[WP:assume good faith|assume good faith]], but at best proposer simply does not know what they are talking about, neither with respect to sailing rigs nor Wikipedia procedures. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 10:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
**This takes the biscuit - [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] has moved the article [[Brig]] to [[Brig (ship)]].  [[Brig]] is now a redirect to [[Brig (disambiguation)]].  Firstly, a brig is distinct from a ship in technical terms (as ship has three square rigged masts), so the new title is a nonsense in technical terms.  Second, [[Brig]] needs no disambiguation, and the naming convention was correct in the first place.  Third, the moving of this article was under discussion, with an obvious consensus against when InternetMeme made the move.  This now needs an admin to undo the changes.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 16:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
***Yes, there's some cleaning up to do, and this particular move proposal isn't helping IMO. Closing it would be a step towards cleaning up IMO. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
***Not quite that simple... See [[ship]], [[ship (disambiguation)]] and [[full rigged ship]] (which I've just added to the DAB). [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)   
**'''Comment''' - (edit conflict) why is this article now called Brig (ship)?? That's a hideous title, and technical self-contradictory. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 16:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
***Part of the general mess. Getting worse. Hang in there! [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
*Many people (usually via Star Trek) know "brig" as "onboard prison" who do not know what sort of ship a brig(ship) is. In these days of diesel power, is the sort of sailing ship now a dominant meaning? [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 16:55, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
:Well, my [[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]] has the nautical vessel "brig" as the first and primary meaning.  "Brig" as a naval prison is a chiefly US term.  I'd be interested to hear what Websters says, but I don't have a copy.  Wiktionary agrees with the OED, that the vessel type is the primary meaning.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 17:05, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
:Of course there's also the issue that about 1500 links for [[Brig]] now route to a disambiguation page. [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 17:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
:Good questions. Let's close this unhelpful RM and set up a neat discussion on whether the rig is really the primary meaning of ''brig'', and if not, how to best disambiguate. No change of vote. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 21:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - A brig is not a brigantine as, judging by the comments above, most people are aware. Nor is it a 'ship'. Brig as a sailing vessel is, in my opinion, the primary meaning. I propose therefore, that this article is renamed 'brig' with hatnotes to 'brig (guardhouse)' and 'brig (disambiguation)'.--[[User:Ykraps|Ykraps]] ([[User talk:Ykraps|talk]]) 17:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - Hey guys, sorry about the mistake. My only intention was to separate out the two different items ("Brig" as in "ship" and "brig" as in "prison"). According to the lead section of this article, a brig is indeed a '''ship''':

:"brigs were seen as fast and maneuverable and were used as both naval war ships and merchant ships"

:Also, I have no opinion on whether a brig is a ''ship'' or a ''sailing vessel'', but given that the lead section of this article already refers to a brig as a ''ship'', I would suggest that whatever semantic battle Martocticvs is proposing had already been lost long ago. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 18:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
::No one is disputing that the word "ship" is largely synonymous with the word "vessel", but ship has another meaning, which is a technical distinction from "brig", and so making the article name "Brig (ship)" is nonsense.  There is a technical function to an encyclopaedia that is not well served by dumbing down article names.  In any case, in the lead section, "Merchant ship" is not synonymous with "ship", and Martocticvs' point stands.  The article naming rules at [[Wikipedia:Article_titles#Precision_and_disambiguation]] are quite clear - "If the topic of the article is the primary topic (or only topic) for a desired title, then the article can take that title without modification"  '''If''' the sailing vessel is the primary topic (as it has been for years) then it needs no parenthesis, and a hatnote at the top of the article directing readers to the DAB page is sufficient.  That's where we were before you moved the articles around without any consensus.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 18:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

* The prioritization of the word ''brig'' as a sailing vessel is historical. These days a brig is far more likely to be a prison. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 19:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
**In your opinion.  My dictionary doesn't agree with you, nor do the first three internet dictionaries I pulled off Google, including Websters - [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brig], [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brig], [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brig].  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 19:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
***Of course it's my opinion. Why would I promote someone else's opinion? Let me put it a different way: If you were to count the number of brigs in use around the world, what number of them would be military prisons, and what number of them would be sailing vessels? [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 19:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
**Utterly irrelevant. Show me a source (dictionary, encyclopaedia, thesaurus) that makes the military prison the primary meaning, and I'll show you a hundred that put it the other way round. [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 19:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
***It's not even remotely utterly irrelevant. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 19:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
**We don't count occurrences as a means of determining what is a primary subject.  If we did, the total number of brigs, current and historical would far outnumber the number of naval military prisons (try looking at the number of links within Wiki?)- but I wouldn't dream of using such an irrelevant argument.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 20:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

===Alternative proposal===

Move to ''[[brig (ship)|brig (ship)]]'' and move ''[[brig (disambiguation)|brig (disambiguation)]]'' to ''brig''.

This assumes that there is currently no primary meaning for ''brig'', and that there's no better disambiguator for this article than ''ship''.

I'm going to offer no evidence regarding primary meaning, but others are welcome to. If the primary meaning is the ship or rig, then we need do nothing. If it's anything else, then we still need to disambiguate this article title.

My main concern here is, if we do move this article, where to? Some other possibilities:

* ''Brig (rig)''. My second choice, but just doesn't feel right. The term ''brig'' refers to the whole ship, not just its distinguishing rig.
* ''Brig (sailing rig)''. Even worse, and makes it sound like it could include smaller sailboats.
* ''Brig (sailing ship)''. No advantage over ''...(ship)'', and needlessly long.
* ''Brig (sailing ship rig)''. The worst of all worlds.

Interested in other suggestions. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 10:41, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:(boat) or (vessel) ? -- [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|PBS]] ([[User talk:Philip Baird Shearer|talk]]) 20:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

:: It depends soley on whether Wikipedia is supposed to use current English definitions for article titles. If it is, then no discussion is needed: a Brig is simply a ship. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 01:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

:::Not really as few if any brigs are built today and as the OED says: "A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts," so dabbing it with an extension (ship) would make the name confusing. -- [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|PBS]] ([[User talk:Philip Baird Shearer|talk]]) 10:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

::::I think you're missing the point. The current usage of the word ''ship'' describes any large vessel. It doesn't matter when it was built; it doesn't matter what kind of masts it has: A Brig is a large vessel, and is therefore a ship.

::::One might as well argue that—technically speaking—computers aren't manufactured, because they aren't made by hand. The meaning of the word ''manufacture'' has changed, just as the meaning of the word ''ship'' has changed. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 17:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::If you're going to pull out the OED, it's best not to skip the first, 1-a,  definition in favor of the one that supports your argument: "A large sea-going vessel (opposed to a boat)" - simple as that. [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 17:39, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::Thing is, though, this article isn't about a ship, putting aside whether the word ship should be applied to a brig. It is about the sailing rig. The only demands the brig rig places on a hull is that it be of a sufficient size for it. Beyond that the hull is irrelevant, so the term brig applies to the rig first and foremost, and only by extension to the whole vessel carrying that rig. I wouldn't have any issues with someone writing a sentence along these lines: 'the squadron consisted of 8 ships, of which 3 were ships of the line, 2 were frigates and the remainder brigs.' But since the article is specifically about the rig, as to consider it to be about a complete vessel makes no real sense, including the word ship in the title just confuses things completely. The article is not about a ship, or vessel: it is about a type of rig. I don't think any disambiguation is needed in the first place, but to me [[Brig (ship)]] is absolutely the worst possible title that could be used. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 17:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::However, this article refers to many, many specific ships, all of them "brigs". If it was about the sailing rig, would these be "ships which used a brig sailing rig" rather than just calling them brigs? [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 20:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

{{outdent}}I respect your knowledge on this subject. From what you say, it seems the word "brig" can describe two separate things: A type of rigging configuration, and a type of ship (this definition is also clear in the article). To clear this problem up, we'll need to split this article into two separate articles, such as:

1) '''Brig (ship)''', which would describe the type of ship.

2) '''Brig (rigging)''', which would describe what you're talking about.

[[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 19:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

:A vessel becomes a brig by virtue of being brig rigged. It is completely possible to turn that very same vessel, with the minimum of effort, into a brigatine, simply by altering the rig. So yes, the vessel as a whole is called a brig, but if you were to change the rig it would become whatever that new rig makes it. I may not be making my point very clear, in which case I apologise. A vessel that is brig rigged is a brig, and anything else is not, but a vessel is only a brig ''because'' it is brig rigged - hence it is the rig that is the important thing here. So there is no possible way you can split the article into two. Because the term brig is so intractably related to the rig itself, saying Brig (ship) doesn't work - do you see? So in an attempt to clarify my point about as far as I can, let's take the following example. {{HMS|Racehorse|1806|6}} was a [[Cruizer-class brig-sloop]]. I have no real objection to someone referring to her in her article as a ship when referring to the vessel as a whole, because this is modern, common usage of the word, as has been said, and the subject (ie ''Racehorse'' herself) is a tangible, definite thing. However, she is a brig (ignore the term sloop here, it is a Royal Navy designation bearing no relation to the sloop rig) because she is so rigged. Now, if we contrast her with {{HMS|Snake|1797|6}}, a ship-sloop, perhaps things will be a little clearer. ''Snake'' shared the same hull design as the vessels of the ''Cruizer''-class - the only thing that made them different was their rig - ''Racehorse'' was brig-rigged, ''Snake'' was ship-rigged. In other words, it is all about the rig, and so [[Brig (ship)]] reads to me exactly the same as [[BMW (Audi)]]. They are both rigs, and both makes of car, but neither title makes any sense at all. Ship has multiple meanings whereas Audi does not, but the alternative meanings don't make any sense in this context. Hopefully now you can see where I'm coming from on this one. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 21:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
::Then the article needs to be rewritten from the start because it says, "A brig is a sailing vessel with two square-rigged masts." A sailing vessel, which is a ship, ship being "the modern, common usage of the word.," rather than "A brig is a sailing rig." [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 21:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

{{outdent}}The first meaning in the OED for brig is "a. A vessel" given that definition then the statement "A vessel with two masts square-rigged like a ship's fore- and main-masts," is internally consistent with the rest of the entry. It is clearly more than rigging: If that was all it was one could call a mock up of the rigging on land and call it "a brig" (as opposed to "a brig's rigging") -- something that most would find odd -- and if a brig was de-masted in a fight one would not usually stop referring to her as a brig until such time as the damage was repaired. I suspect for clarity one needs to think of brig as a class of vessel rigged in a certain way not as a type of rigging. -- [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|PBS]] ([[User talk:Philip Baird Shearer|talk]]) 10:48, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' The primary meaning of the word is the ship type. The hatnote covers the situation adequately. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 07:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', solution in search of a problem, there's nothing wrong with the current title ([[Brig]]).--[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 08:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. It's already been demonstrated that there is a problem: The term '''Brig''' is very commonly used to describe a military prison, and a town, etc. [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 16:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

In situations such as this, in which the title of an article refers to two closely-related but separate objects (in this case a class of vessel and a system of rigging) the title is usually disambiguated with a term that refers not to either type of object, but to a subject category that covers both objects.

Vessel classes and rigging systems are both topics that are within the field of sailing, so in this case, I would nominate the article title:

'''Brig (sailing)'''

[[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 16:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

AFAIK, brig is used for naval prisons, not those of the army or air force, at least in the US. So I think your case to move the article is even weaker than you originally thought.--[[User:Sturmvogel 66|Sturmvogel 66]] ([[User talk:Sturmvogel 66|talk]]) 20:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->
I see what you mean, but my resoning was purely anecdotal. I've heard the term 'brig' used many times, and I've never heard it in reference to a ship (I'm not from the US). [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 20:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

==Revert this move==
[[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] moved the article [[Brig]] to [[Brig (ship)]].  This move needs to be reverted immediately for the following reasons:
*The move was made while a discussion was in progress on the subject of a similar move requested by [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]], the consensus of which was against any move
*The primary meaning (according to every dictionary I can find) is the sailing vessel, and according to our own rules, that means the article should be entitled [[Brig]] without any disambiguation
*Disambiguating [[Brig]] as [[Brig (ship)]] is technically perverse, since one of the vessels that a brig is not, in a technical sense, is a [[full-rigged ship|ship]]
*<u>Most importantly</u> there are now upwards of 1500 links to [[Brig]] that are in context of a two-masted square-rigged sailing vessel, but which now link (via a redirect) to a disambiguation page.
This move requires an admin, since the article [[Brig (ship)]] cannot be moved straight back to [[Brig]] without [[Brig]] being deleted first.  Please can we go back to the (correct) previous naming conventions as soon as possible. [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 20:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

:Agree that a simple revert (but leaving a redir) is helpful at this stage. No significant history at target. Done. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 21:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

:But see above for a formal proposal to reinstate it. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 10:48, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

==Soap==

I'm not at all comfortable about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brig&diff=404086597&oldid=404084833 this edit] which added ''In the narrow technical field of sailing rigs, a brig is distinct from a three-masted [[full-rigged ship|ship]] by virtue of only having two masts'' to the already overly long lead paragraph. This is more about what a ''ship'' is than about what a ''brig'' is. It's probably too long-winded for this article at all, let alone the [[WP:lead]], let alone the first paragraph. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 05:33, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

See also [[:Category:Two-masted ships]] and related categories and articles. Note ''two-masted '''ship'''s''. Is the lead of the article on the ''brig'' rig really the place to split hairs like this? In normal conversation, even among sail enthusiasts, a brig is a ''ship''. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 09:51, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that a couple of hundred years ago, the word ''ship'' was a very technical term that described a particular vessel with three or more masts. By virtue of this old definition, virtually no vessels today are ships—they have no masts, as they are powered by diesel-electric motors.

:I'm guessing you are right... but before basing any decisions on this I'd like to consider evidence from reliable sources. This ''old definition'' is one I've sometimes seen authorities use when comparing rigs, but not consistently.

::P.S. but I should have said, few ships have [[diesel-electric]] motors. Some do, mainly ferries, cruise ships, icebreakers and conventional submarines. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 11:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Nevertheless, today we use the word ''ship'' to describe a vessel without regard for of its number of masts. Any vessel bigger than a boat is a ship. The question is, in this article, should we be using the term ''ship'' in the historical sense, or should we be using the term ''ship'' in its current sense? [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 16:30, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

:This ''current sense'' seems to be the sense in which Wikipedia has mostly used the term to date, for example in the category names I listed above, and it's the sense in which I tend to use the term, with some exceptions... A submarine of any size is a ''boat'', and in some contexts a vessel of any size is a ''ship'', for example if it carries a cat it's the ''ship's cat'' (and some surprisingly small yachts do). These latter contexts tend to be formal and even affected speech, including humour and even ridicule.

:We should of course use ''current'' English, I think that question is [[rhetoric|rhetorical]]. In the article lead, and title, if we use the word ''ship'' at all it would be better to use it in the more general sense, but it may be best avoided. Perhaps we should have a later section that contrasts the rig to a ''fully rigged ship''.

:But even in this technical sense the word ''ship'' in modern usage seems ill-defined. Are three-masted rigs such as the [[barque]] and [[barquentine]] ''ship''s? There is a sense in which they are not, in that ''ship'' is short for ''fully rigged ship'', and another in which they are, in that a ''ship'' has three or more masts. I suspect it depends on the authority.

:As an example of this problem, see the article on the 338-foot [[schooner]] ''[[Pretoria (ship)|Pretoria]]''. Note that we disambiguate this article ''ship'', and that she's a very substantial vessel. But the cited newspaper account of the time calls her a ''boat''. This is not an accident! [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 19:04, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

:: The point is, in modern casual usage, the word 'ship' is amorphous - not just modern, but throughout history. However, in the specific context of rigs, ship takes on a very particular meaning. So whilst in casual speech you might refer to any kind of vessel larger than a boat as a ship, if you are talking about the rig of a Brig, or a Ketch, or a Schooner, or a Xebec.... to throw in the word ship gives you a contradiction. Do you mean Brig (etc), or Ship? Thus Brig (ship) is a really bad title. The category 'Two-masted ships' is badly named, however - Wikipedia should strive to achieve at least some degree of technical accuracy, despite not being a technical publication. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 20:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

:::We should certainly strive for accuracy. But in the choice of an article title, we generally follow current English usage, and it's sometimes illogical but the policy is that Wikipedia still follows current usage and in particular doesn't try to reform the current language. (That's why I headed the section [[WP:soap|soap]].)

:::With that in mind, disagree that [[:Category:two-masted ships]] is ''badly named''. But glad that you see the issue. How about [[:Category:Ship types]], [[:Category:Ships by number of masts]], and even [[:Category:Ships]], of which all of these, directly or indirectly, are subcategories? [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 21:11, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be getting out of hand. Of course the word ship has evolved to mean any large ocean going vessel (too large to be carried on another, I believe) but in sailing circles the word 'ship' ''still'' retains its old meaning. Is it really such a problem to avoid the use of the word in articles such as this one?--[[User:Ykraps|Ykraps]] ([[User talk:Ykraps|talk]]) 09:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not sure I see a major problem:  yes, the category is badly named (anyone fancy changing all those ship categories to "vessel"?!), and yes, the distinction between [[ship]] and [[full-rigged ship]] is one that crops up regularly.  It's worth noting however, that some of the links to [[brig]] are there to highlight the technical difference between a brig and a ship (for an example, see the infobox of [[HMS Grasshopper (1813)]]).  We should strive to ensure that the article explains the technical distinction clearly for the benefit of readers.  That's why I made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brig&diff=404086597&oldid=404084833 this edit] as pointed out by [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] at the top of this section.  Nevertheless, if you can think of a better way of doing it, please go ahead and change it.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 10:21, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:Disagree that ''in sailing circles the word 'ship' still retains its old meaning'', it's just among tall ship enthusiasts that the word still has this meaning, and it only had this meaning in general for a relatively short period of time even in the [[age of sail]].

:But the practical question is, if we decide we do need to disambiguate this meaning of ''brig'', either because there's another primary meaning or because currently there is no primary meaning, what's the best disambiguator? And I think ''ship'' needs to be considered. Tall ship enthusiasts may wish to impose their meaning on the general public, but we don't need to go along with them, and in fact our policy is not to. 

:See above for a formal proposal along these lines. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 10:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:: If it absolutely had to have a disambiguator (which I do not agree with), 'sailing rig' would be vastly better than 'ship', since the former is exactly what the article is about, and the latter is exactly what the article is not about. Disagreeing that the word ship has a meaning in a different context from the commonly used one is a bit irrelevant - in the context of sailing vessel rigs, ship does, and always will have, a specific meaning. No one is arguing against the idea that in normal usage out of this context it can be, and indeed is, used to describe just about anything that floats. But this is an article about a sailing rig that is distinct from a ship rig. The term 'full-rigged-ship' is a fairly modern term that tries to get around the fact that the word ship has obviously come to be applied to anything due to the ending of the age of sail - in general usage. As soon as you get into talking about rigs though, it is as I have said. So [[Brig (sailing rig)]] I would not have a problem with, if there was to be consensus that a disambiguator is needed; [[Brig (ship)]] I will never agree with because it is simply wrong. [[User:Martocticvs|Martocticvs]] ([[User talk:Martocticvs|talk]]) 12:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:::That's an excellent summary of the case against ''brig (ship)'' so far, and it lacks any basis in [[Wikipedia:Article titles|official Wikipedia policy]]. This is a general encyclopedia, and article titles are selected to be recognisable to the layperson as well as to the expert. No expert will be misled by the title ''brig (ship)''. The information that some people object to the common practice of calling these vessels ''ship''s belongs in the article, not in the title. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 14:37, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

::::PS And, as has been said above, the same arguments also apply to the names of [[:Category:Two-masted ships]] and even [[:Category:ships]], and many, many others. 

::::They are weakest regarding ''Category:ships'', in that the main problem there is that the subcategories include, for example, [[:Category:Ships by number of masts]], and whatever we end up naming ''Category:Two-masted ships'' I think it's unlikely that we'll then remove it from ''Category:Ships by number of masts'' (on the grounds that two-masted vessels allegedly aren't ships).

::::But they're strongest for ''Category:Two-masted ships''. My suggestion would be, if others think that the argument above rejecting ''Brig (ship)'' as an article title is important, then surely you should propose a rename of ''Category:Two-masted ships''.

::::If and when a consensus forms to rename this, then there'll be some basis to apply the principle more widely, such as in this discussion. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:22, 26 December 2010 (UTC)  

So the question is:  Do we need a disambiguator at all?  '''If "Brig" as used here is the primary meaning, then we do not, as I understand it.'''  This also happens to be the status quo.  I would suggest that every dictionary I have consulted has the sailing vessel as the primary meaning, and that I'd be interested to hear of a counter argument that argues powerfully against the dictionary usage - all I hear at the moment is personal opinion.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 14:46, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:Exactly. Until and unless evidence is presented and a rough [[WP:consensus|consensus]] reached that a move is required, there's no problem deciding on a disambiguator, because we don't need one. 

:My raising a formal proposal for such a move above is intended to promote such discussion. I think it would have been better to just close the messy original nomination and open a fresh one, but I felt I was too involved to do this, and nobody else took my hints. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

A ship is a large vessel that floats on water. (according to my most valuable reference (wikipedia))[[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 21:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yes, see [[ship]]. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 22:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:: have the article under the "Brig" namespace with a link at the top "this is an article about ships not [[military prison]]?  [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 03:19, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
:::I think you mean ''name'' not ''[[WP:namespace|namespace]]''. Yes, a [[WP:hatnote|hatnote]] is an excellent idea. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 09:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

::: Hey, this is an excellent idea. I wish you'd done this long ago, before I caused all that kerfuffle! [[User:InternetMeme|InternetMeme]] ([[User talk:InternetMeme|talk]]) 16:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

::::I'm tired and confused. will someone do this? I'm also lazy today.. [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 22:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
awesome![[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 02:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


== confusion ==

If you read the descriptions on [[Hermaphrodite_brig]], [[brigantine]] and [[brig]], there seems to be a conflict about how the mainmast should be rigged. 
:The hermaphrodite brig is distinguished from a brigantine in having exclusively fore-and-aft sails on the mainmast, ''while the brigantine has one or more square sails on the main topmast, above a gaff rigged main-course, or "spanker".''
Meanwhile, 
:In sailing, a full-rigged brig is a vessel with two square rigged masts (fore and main).[1] The main mast of a brig is the aft one.'' To improve maneuverability, the mainmast carries a small (gaff rigged) fore-and-aft sail.''
Is the difference the presence of a square rigged main course in addition to the gaff-rigged spanker on the brig vs. the hermaphrodite's main course being gaff-rigged and therefore 'not' technically a [[Spanker_(sail)|spanker]]?
[[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 14:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

:There's also the [[brig-sloop]] ... [[Special:Contributions/184.144.166.27|184.144.166.27]] ([[User talk:184.144.166.27|talk]]) 05:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
::The [[brig]] and [[brigantine]] articles are correct. [[Hermaphrodite brig]] should be a re-direct to [[brigantine]] (which states at the bottom that "Early American usage was to refer to a brigantine as a hermaphrodite brig.") 
::A [[brig-sloop]] is a brig-rigged [[sloop-of-war]] (and is thus a brig).  Confusingly perhaps, a sloop-of-war is not sloop-rigged, but is instead defined by having an officer below the rank of captain in command.  
::Unfortunately I'm pressed for time; if you give me a few days I'll improve the relevant articles.  [[User:Shem1805|Shem]] ([[User talk:Shem1805|talk]]) 10:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

== Brig Niagara ==

That is one sexy photo! [[User:Vinithehat|ViniTheHat]] ([[User talk:Vinithehat|talk]]) 02:38, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

== From Russia ==

Well, how typical for Americans to forget about us once again.

In this article there the World's one of most famous brigs, Russian brig "Mercury" wasn't mentioned by even couple of words! In those battle in 1829 those Russian brig "Mercury" (armed with 18 light guns) had against 2 line battleships (flagman and vice-flagman, 90 and 120 guns each by Turkish data) of Ottoman Empire, Russian brig fatally damaged both of them, demanding Turkish ships to lie down on the drift, and then escaped. Nobody couldn't believe in this until Ottoman side confirmed the fact. 

See for brig "Mercury" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_brig_Mercury  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Troske|Troske]] ([[User talk:Troske|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Troske|contribs]]) 07:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Usefull Diagram ==

The following is a usefull diagram to show the different two masted vessels rigging plans, in relation to their classicifaction.<br>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_Rigging_differences_in_schematic_view.png  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Refundpolitics|Refundpolitics]] ([[User talk:Refundpolitics|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Refundpolitics|contribs]]) 14:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== article is self-contradicting ==

The Section

:'''Development of the brig'''
:(...) "that the sails, being smaller and more numerous, are more easily managed, and require fewer men or 'hands' to work them."

is in contradiction with:

:'''Historic usage'''
:(...) They were replaced in commercial traffic by gaffsail schooners (which needed fewer personnel)

''Let me explain why:'' The difference between a Brig and a Brigantine is in the mainsail. A brig has a square-rigged mainsail, while the Brigantine had a fore-and-aft rigged mainsail. This fore-and-aft mainsail was identical to that of a gaff rigged schooner (at the time, bermuda rigged schooners did not yet exist). It is my understanding that square sails needed more man to handle than fore-and-aft sails (I don't have a source ready, but will see if I can find a credible one). So while the second quote is correct, the first one is really odd.

The information in the ''Development of the brig'' section has ''[http://web.archive.org/web/20061011015913/http://www.athelstane.co.uk/ballanty/manocean/ocean10.htm|Man on the Ocean]'' as a source. This very source also fails to note the difference between cutters and sloops (at the linked page); so it may not be the best source nautical correct information.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/78.0.54.197|78.0.54.197]] ([[User talk:78.0.54.197|talk]]) 17:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Brig and Brigantine ==

Please see [[Talk:Sail-plan#Brig and Brigantine]]. --[[Special:Contributions/62.19.46.1|62.19.46.1]] ([[User talk:62.19.46.1|talk]]) 13:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:4|one external link|4 external links}} on [[Brig]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=748490721 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/VC/visitor_info/quiz/ship.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070301112328/http://freespace.virgin.net:80/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/fleetwin.htm to http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/fleetwin.htm#topfleetwing
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070626195143/http://www.tallships.org/document.asp?cat=693&doc=6823 to http://www.tallships.org/document.asp?cat=693&doc=6823
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101228161737/http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html to http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101228161737/http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html to http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 12:59, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on [[Brig]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=792306549 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/VC/visitor_info/quiz/ship.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120425050927/http://www.texasnavy.com/History/General/19th_Century_Nautical_Glossary.pdf to http://www.texasnavy.com/History/General/19th_Century_Nautical_Glossary.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070912133014/http://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=shiptype&id=3 to http://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=shiptype&id=3

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 19:36, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

==Weight==
The term "Weight" in the info box is meaningless. The term should be "Tons burthen", and the measurement is volumetric with respect to the cargo capacity. The measure of burthen was [[Builder's Old Measurement]], usually abbreviated "bm".[[User:Acad Ronin|Acad Ronin]] ([[User talk:Acad Ronin|talk]]) 21:18, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

== Article deficiencies ==

(1) Use of RM Ballantyne as a reference is questionable. What special knowledge does he have of the subject? There are other sources out there.<br/>(2) The omission of the collier brigs that served the North Sea coast of the UK is quite surprising. The article is generally very light on merchant vessels of this type.<br/>May add more to this list on further study. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 23:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
:(3)The references for this article include:<br/>Teacher's Guide for teaching a history class and setting various tasks for students.<br/>A scuba diving site that has some information about wrecks. ([[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]]?)<br/>[[R. M. Ballantyne]] - as above.<br/>A glossary put together for the website for the Texas Navies<br/>Essentially, the article is based on whatever can be found on the internet, with little consideration for the level of expertise that the website operator might have in the subject. There is only one book listed, written by [[Howard I. Chapelle]] and it looks as though he has been quoted out of context (I believe he was talking about the multi-masted schooners - but I do not have a copy to hand at the moment). There are ample books on maritime history, written by authors with significant credentials. That should be the reference base for much of the article. [[User:ThoughtIdRetired|ThoughtIdRetired]] ([[User talk:ThoughtIdRetired|talk]]) 20:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)