View source for Talk:Bill Hayden

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=="Alienation from his former party"==

Bill attended the last Labor function I was at, in which several speakers made reference to the fact that he had re-joined the party.  Perhaps the article is in need of an update? [[User:Lacrimosus|Slac]] [[User talk:Lacrimosus|<small>speak up!</small>]] 01:35, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Can we find a source? [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:40, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Kim Beazley and several other speakers made mention of it several times at the Labor Leaders dinner in Brisbane earlier this year, at which Bill Hayden was in attendance. I was there, I assume [[User:Lacrimosus|Slac]] was also there. QLD State Secretary Milton Dick was also there, and he acknowledged Bill although I don't recall whether he was one of the speakers who said that he had re-joined the Party. I think the article needs an update! --Anon <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/131.181.251.66|131.181.251.66]] ([[User talk:131.181.251.66#top|talk]]) 07:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)</small>

==Photo==
Is it possible to find a photo of Bill Hayden as Governor-General ie a photo from the 1980's rather than one from when he entered Parliament in the late 1960s ?  [[Paddington62]] 3 march 2006 <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/136.153.2.2|136.153.2.2]] ([[User talk:136.153.2.2#top|talk]]) 07:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)</small>

:I have updated the picture to [[c:File:Bill_Hayden_1988.jpg|one]] from 1987, this one seemed suitable as this exact image was not used elsewhere on this page but it was cropped from another picture on the page, I could not find many other suitable images of Hayden.

At the moment the picture I have used on the main page has been reverted to an older one from around 1971. I am unsure of whether better images are available from sources other than Wikipedia Commons or that image will be suitable. [[User:Qwerty123M|Qwerty123M]] ([[User talk:Qwerty123M|talk]]) 06:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

== Band Member? ==

I am pretty sure this is not the Bill Hayden from the british metal band jerusalem. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/24.208.78.62|24.208.78.62]] ([[User talk:24.208.78.62|talk]]) 01:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:So am I  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/120.149.29.82|120.149.29.82]] ([[User talk:120.149.29.82|talk]]) 14:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Declined to be Chief Scout==
Was it Hayden who declined the normal practice of the G-G becoming the Chief Scout of Australia, on the grounds that the Scout oath was inimical to his atheism?  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 11:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

:To answer my own question, yes, it was.  [http://www.scouts.com.au/main.asp?iStoryID=734 This] is a cite for the GG normally being made Chief Scout.  And [http://www.alor.org/Volume25/Vol25No13.htm this] confirms that Hayden said thanks, but no thanks.  Disclaimer: I have no association whatsoever with the League of Rights or what they stand for; this was the only cite I could find on Google.  --  [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 00:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

==Prime Minister Hayden?==
[http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/State-funeral-farewells-Beazley-senior/2007/10/21/1192301122269.html Four former prime ministers - Gough Whitlam, Bob Hawke, Paul Keating and Bill Hayden - were among those paying their respects]... time to update the wiki or jump up and down over how the media don't proof their articles these days? :P [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] 08:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

== Sources, etc. ==

Hi, I believe a some passages in the article need to be [[WP:RS|sourced]], trimmed of [[WP:AWW|weasel words]] and have their [[WP:NPOV|pov]] cleaned.

I have marked these passages in the text, and, following [[User:Timeshift9|timeshift]]'s suggestion, I'm adding them here for discussion. I apologize for not starting this discussion here the first time I tagged the problematic sentences. I acted that way because I believe this tagging to be uncontroversial.

They are:

;Non-neutral point of view (POV)
# "''By 1982 it was clear{{POV-statement}} that Fraser was manoeuvring to call an early election,''" 
#: "Clear"?
#"''...Hayden, still emotional{{POV-statement}}, said that "a drover's dog...''"
#: "Emotional" is the authors opinion. A neutral encyclopedia should avoid that language.
#"''In a remarkable{{POV-statement}} 1983 speech...''"
#: "Remarkable" is quite povvy.

; Use of Weasel words
#"''In December Labor failed to win the vital Flinders by-election, reinforcing doubts{{ww}} about Hayden's ability to win an election.''"
#:Whose doubts? I believe this passage is loaded.

;Lack of sources
# "''Hawke continued to plot against Hayden{{fact}}.''"
#: This being a [[WP:BLP|biorgaphy of a living person]], this passage should actually be removed instead of tagged.
#"''...Hayden's closest supporters told him that he must resign{{fact}},...''"
#: Is that a first person account? What's the reliable source we attribute this to? 

Thanks, --[[User:Damiens.rf|Damiens<small>.rf</small>]] 13:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

== attempt at a re-edit ==

Here is a copy of an edit i made to the main article that was totally reverted. While perhaps some of the assertions are still unsourced, I have endeavoured to remove weasel wording and biased phraseology (as identified by other editors). However, I dont believe the arbirtary blanket reversion (by one user) of all of the editing to the previous (and contentious) version was the best way to proceed in improving the article.

I suggest that from this takkpage, sentences or paragraphs that are consensually agreeable should be reinstated into the main article.
[[User:Jabberjawjapan|Jabberjawjapan]] ([[User talk:Jabberjawjapan|talk]]) 08:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

'''Politics'''

He became active in the [[Australian Labor Party|Labor Party]], and in the [[Australian federal election, 1961|1961 election]] he surprised many, by winning the [[Australian House of Representatives|House of Representatives]] seat of [[Division of Oxley|Oxley]], defeating [[Donald Alastair Cameron]], the Minister for Health in the [[Robert Menzies|Menzies]] [[Liberal Party of Australia|Liberal]] government.  
    
In 1969 Hayden was elected to the Opposition front bench. When Labor under [[Gough Whitlam]] won the [[Australian federal election, 1972|1972 election]], Hayden became [[Minister for Human Services (Australia)|Minister for Social Security]], and in that capacity introduced [[Medicare (Australia)|Medibank]], Australia's first system of universal health insurance. In June 1975 he succeeded [[Jim Cairns]] as [[Treasurer of Australia|Treasurer]] (finance minister), a position he held until the Whitlam Government was [[1975 Australian constitutional crisis|dismissed by the Governor-General]], [[John Kerr (Governor-General)|Sir John Kerr]], on 11&nbsp;November 1975.  
    
When Labor lost the [[Australian federal election, 1977|1977 election]], Whitlam resigned as leader and Hayden was elected to succeed him. His political views had shifted to the centre, and he advocated economic policies which favoured the private sector and supported the American alliance. At the [[Australian federal election, 1980|1980 election]] he improved Labor's position but narrowly failed to defeat [[Malcolm Fraser]]'s Liberal government. The popular union leader [[Bob Hawke]], known to harbour Labour leadership ambitions, was elected to Parliament.  
    
By 1982 Fraser was manoeuvering to call an early election, and Hawke began organising his supporters to challenge Hayden's leadership. On 16 July Hayden narrowly defeated Hawke's challenge in a party ballot, but Hawke continued to campaign against Hayden{{Fact|date=August 2008}}. Then in December Labor failed to win the important [[Flinders by-election, 1982|Flinders by-election]], increasing criticism from his rivals about his ability to win an election.  
    
On 3 February 1983, in a meeting in [[Brisbane]], supporters close to Hayden's advised him to resign, which he did. Hawke was then elected leader unopposed. Later that morning, unaware of the events in Brisbane, Fraser in [[Canberra]] called a snap election for 5 March. At a press conference that afternoon Hayden, still shaken by the leadership challenge, said that ''"a drover's dog could lead the Labor Party to victory at the present time"''. Labor under Hawke won the [[Australian federal election, 1983|1983 election]], and Hayden became Minister for Foreign Affairs, a position he held until 1988.  
    
As Foreign Minister, Hayden advocated closer integration between Australia and its Asian neighbours. In a 1983 speech, he stated: "''Australia is changing. We're an anomaly as a European country in this part of the world. There's already a large and growing Asian population in Australia and it is inevitable in my view that Australia will become a Eurasian country... I happen to think that's desirable."''  
    
'''Governor-General'''

After the [[Australian federal election, 1987|1987 federal election]] Hawke offered Hayden the post of [[Governor-General of Australia|Governor-General]] to provide him an exit from parliamentary politics and perhaps some consolation for having denied him the chance to become Prime Minister. The appointment of Hayden as the next Governor-General to succeed Sir [[Ninian Stephen]] was publicly announced in mid-1988, and he immediately left parliament and all connections with the Labor Party. He assumed the post in early 1989, and served during the transition from the Hawke government to the [[Paul Keating|Keating]] government in December 1991.  
    
Early in his term, he was appointed Companion of the [[Order of Australia]]<ref>[http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/honour_roll/search.cfm?aus_award_id=885258&search_type=quick&showInd=true It's an Honour] - Companion of the Order of Australia</ref> to fulfil the Governor-General's role as Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order. He had previously said he would never accept any honours.  Early in his term, he was appointed Companion of the [[Order of Australia]]<ref>[http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/honour_roll/search.cfm?aus_award_id=885258&search_type=quick&showInd=true It's an Honour] - Companion of the Order of Australia</ref> to fulfil the Governor-General's role as Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order. He had previously said he would never accept any honours. 

'''Later life'''

After Hayden left office in 1996, however, there was still unresolved tension with the Labor Party. He had a difficult relationship with [[Paul Keating]], whom he believed engineered the 1983 leadership challenge{{Fact|date=August 2008}}. By the late 1990s however, Hayden had become a conservative, joining the board of the conservative magazine ''[[Quadrant (magazine)|Quadrant]]''. In the debate preceding the [[Australian republic referendum, 1999|1999 republic referendum]], Hayden rejected the specific proposal and sided with the monarchists,<ref>[http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s57757.htm Anti-republican cause recruits Bill Hayden - ABC PM: 7/10/1999]</ref> claiming he only supports direct election of a president.<ref>[http://www.republic.org.au/ARM-2001/mediaroom/mr16.htm Republicans call for the real Bill Hayden to stand up in the No referendum case - Republic.org.au: 17/8/1999]</ref>

{{reflist-talk}}

==Return to campaigning for Labor==
Bill Hayden was interviewed by Chris Uhlmann at Julia Gillard's campaign "launch" in Brisbane today.  He said he and his wife have been campaigning for Labor in the seat of Blair.  My impression was that he'd kept out of party politics since becoming Governor-General, including after he left the office, which would be normal procedure for ex G-Gs.  He also mentioned, in saying how impressed he was by Julia Gillard's speech, that he "had never heard the woman speak before", so he obviously isn't keeping up with recent developments.  A very odd little interview.  --  [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">'' ... speak! ... ''</span>]] 03:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
==File:Bill Hayden.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion==
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== [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] ==

There is an [[WP:RfC|RfC]] on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 

The RfC is at '''[[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion]]'''. 

Please help us determine [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] on this issue. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 03:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

== Hayden supported the Republic "Yes" vote? ==

I'm surprised to see the article says that Hayden supported the republic "No" vote. I won't argue with the cite that he opposed it as late as 7 October 1999 [http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s57757.htm], but I am sure I remember him saying he supported "Yes" and, when pressed, said words to the effect of "I changed my mind". It was on a televised debate very soon before the (6 November 1999) vote, which included [[Hazel Hawke]] and [[Geoffrey Robertson]] also advocating "Yes". Can anyone else remember this? Or better still, reference it? [[User:Adpete|Adpete]] ([[User talk:Adpete|talk]]) 05:21, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

:Well he was still advocating No as late as 2-Nov-1999. [http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s63757.htm] It seems my memory is faulty. [[User:Adpete|Adpete]] ([[User talk:Adpete|talk]]) 05:26, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== External links modified ==

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== Earliest surviving? ==

[[User|Thescrubbythug]] has been fiddling with this article and now describes Hayden as "''the earliest elected Labor MP still alive''." This seems very clumsy wording to me, and not all that helpful a fact. It's not directly sourced, so also appears to be [[WP:NOR|original research]]. It evolved during some edit skirmishing yesterday from his initial effort of "''the earliest surviving Labor MP''", also quite clumsy wording. His edit summaries became quite rude, so I withdrew. I am now wondering if "''earliest surviving''" is a distortion of the far more common expression "''longest serving''". "''Serving''" and "''surviving''" have a kind of similarity of sound and look. Have we ended up with the latest wording by beginning with a mistake? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 21:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
::Hi [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]]. I agree the wording around senior living politicians can become difficult to understand, but I believe it’s easy enough in this case. A source that listed his date of election could simply be added; working out an MP who started before another is not original research, it’s simple numerical data; [[WP:SYNTH|Wikipedia prohibits the synthesis of material to put forward an original argument.]] Dates are facts, not original arguments or opinions; they exist regardless. There is no research required, only the earliest date of election has to be found. Furthermore, the fact is notable and important regarding parliamentary history.
::'''“Longest serving” ''' would imply that he served for a period longer than any other MP, while '''”earliest surviving/most senior living” ''' means that out of all the Labor MPs (living or former), he has the earliest date of election (he was elected further in the past than anyone else). I would love suggestions from anyone else who can work out a better way to phrase this. Hope the explanation helped. Cheers. [[User:SpaceFox99|SpaceFox99]] ([[User talk:SpaceFox99|talk]]) 02:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
:::Neither "''earliest surviving''" nor "''most senior living''" mean "''he was elected further in the past than anyone else''". Well, not in good quality English. And those expressions are both gruesome English, not matter what they mean. Maybe we just need to use a few more words to say what we really mean. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 03:08, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
::::Fair enough, let’s try not to overcomplicate it though! :) (perhaps: Bill Hayden... and the living Labor MP with the earliest date of election.)[[User:SpaceFox99|SpaceFox99]] ([[User talk:SpaceFox99|talk]]) 03:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::What on earth is wrong with "''Hayden has been a Labor member of parliament longer than anyone else''"? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 22:27, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
::::::He hasn’t; Paul Keating comes to mind? He is the surviving Labor MP with the earliest date of election, though. [[User:SpaceFox99|SpaceFox99]] ([[User talk:SpaceFox99|talk]]) 22:36, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Alright, make it "''Among current members, Hayden has been a Labor member of parliament longer than anyone else.''" ? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 23:09, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
::::::Should add that Hayden shares this distinction with [[Manfred Cross]] and [[Doug McClelland]], having all been elected in the [[1961 Australian federal election|same election]]. As for [[Paul Keating]], he was first elected in [[1969 Australian federal election|1969]], so as of now he's far from the earliest surviving Labor MP. [[User:Thescrubbythug|Thescrubbythug]] ([[User talk:Thescrubbythug|talk]]) 07:07, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Two things. Firstly, given that Hayden shares this status with two others, I wonder if it's really worth mentioning. Secondly, I still don't think "earliest surviving" means anything like what you want it to mean. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 07:28, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
::::::::So far it seems like it's only yourself who is misinterpreting and taking issue with the whole "earliest surviving" or "earliest elected MP still alive" phrasing. As for your suggestion of the phrasing, it can easily be misinterpreted as Hayden being a longer serving Labor MP than anyone else - which is not only inaccurate but also implies that he is still an MP today. Nobody else has really brought up the original phrasing as any major issue, and it's been pretty long established - as demonstrated on the pages for [[Bill Grayden]] and [[George Pearce (Queensland politician)|George Pearce]]. Both of whom are Liberals who were first elected in [[1949 Australian federal election|1949]] and are currently the earliest elected MPs still alive from any party. I don't see any issue with this distinction being mentioned, and more or less agree with [[User:SpaceFox99|SpaceFox99]] on this. [[User:Thescrubbythug|Thescrubbythug]] ([[User talk:Thescrubbythug|talk]]) 08:35, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::I suggest you stop spending so much time talking about me, rather than the issue. And there might be a very obvious reason nobody has questioned the wording of the pages for [[Bill Grayden]] and [[George Pearce (Queensland politician)|George Pearce]]. Nobody ever looks at them? [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 08:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
::::::::::If this is how you choose to interpret my responses (which in turn come after having being described as "rude", having my contributions dismissed as "reading like nonsense" and reverted without any attempt at amendment, and as a whole making a mountain out of a molehill), then I'm afraid that is your issue. I did try and offer critique as to why your "Among current members, Hayden has been a Labor member of parliament longer than anyone else" suggestion would be a deeply flawed one, and would only serve to confuse and cause readers to misinterpret, but you chose not to comment on that. The initial edit on the Hayden page (without the citation and all) wasn't perfect, but it warranted amendment and not out-of-hand removal. It has since been better-worded (which as it currently stands would be hard to misinterpret as anything other than the fact that Hayden - along with Cross and McClelland - is the earliest elected Labor MP still alive) and cited, and I honestly have more constructive things to do than to carry on this pointless debate about a non-existing "issue". That said, if there are other editors who take issue with the current wording, and a consensus grows that there needs to be some changes made, I'm happy to help contribute. Until then, I'm not wasting any more time on this. [[User:Thescrubbythug|Thescrubbythug]] ([[User talk:Thescrubbythug|talk]]) 13:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)