View source for Talk:Battle of Helm's Deep

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== Merge Battle of the Hornburg here ==
{{Discussion top|result=Merged per consensus. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 20:27, 13 March 2020 (UTC)}}

Following on from the recent AfD of the [[Battle of the Hornburg]], I propose that it be '''merged''' here. As discussed then, the Battle of the Hornburg and Helm's Deep are virtually synonymous. "Helm's Deep" is the common name. Also, fictionally speaking there are no other significant events that occur at Helm's Deep.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 02:24, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

* The Battle of the Hornburg refers to an event.  Helm's Deep refers to a location.  They should be kept separate. [[User:Teacherdan1701|Teacherdan1701]] ([[User talk:Teacherdan1701|talk]]) 11:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' sourced content into this article and let it incubate [[Wikipedia:Summary style|summary style]] until a split is warranted. That the battle occurred in this location makes the proposal sufficient. <small>(not [[Help:Watchlist|watching]], please <code>{{tl|ping}}</code>)</small> <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:#871E8D'>czar</span>]]</span> 21:08, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' Yes one is an event, the other a place, but we are dealing with fictional things. They are notable in interrelated ways, and so there is no justification for having what amounts to two articles approaching the same topic from different angles. Plus "Battle of the Hornberg" violates the actual common name rules about this, in the total literature that mentions this battle, Helm's Deep is a more common term.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 14:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
**A merger will also hopefully make it possible to find enough sources to move this article into being adequately sourced to secondary sources.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 14:13, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. I don't really see secondary sources in either article. Is there evidence that even combined we could pass [[WP:GNG]]? I'm not opposed to the merge, but without more sources I'm wondering if it would be more appropriate just to delete both articles. [[User:BenKuykendall|BenKuykendall]] ([[User talk:BenKuykendall|talk]]) 20:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
::[[User:BenKuykendall|BenKuykendall]], the Battle of the Hornburg has just survived an AfD.--[[User:Jack Upland|Jack Upland]] ([[User talk:Jack Upland|talk]]) 22:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
:::{{Reply to|Jack Upland}}.... okay, kinda surprised the AfD panned out that way.... but then I will '''support''' the merge. Per the [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Battle_of_the_Hornburg|deletion discussion]], it looks like editors found sources describing the production of the battle in the Peter Jackson films. I guess post-merge, we should focus on using sources and filling out that section. [[User:BenKuykendall|BenKuykendall]] ([[User talk:BenKuykendall|talk]]) 22:22, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' - Due to the above discussion.  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#FFD700">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 22:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' - as above, the place is known for the event, and there's little to say about it other than that; and the name "Helm's Deep" is certainly far better known than "Hornburg". There seems to be good consensus for this merge and plenty of time has elapsed so basically we should just get on and do it now. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 16:38, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}

== Battle of the Hornburg is the name of the battle ==

The term "Battle of Helm's Deep" comes from Peter Jackson's movies, it never appears in the book. This page should use the "Battle of the Hornburg" as the primary name and specify that the "Battle of Helm's Deep" is the name given in Peter Jackson's adaptation. See:

"‘A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,’ answered Aragorn. ‘I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.’ (LotR, The Passing Of The Grey Company)

"March 3 - Theoden retreats to Helm’s Deep. Battle of the Hornburg begins. Ents complete the destruction of Isengard." (LotR, Appendix B)

There is also an entry for 'Battle of the Hornburg' in the book's index.

[[User:Kadaveri|Kadaveri]] ([[User talk:Kadaveri|talk]]) 02:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

: Many thanks for discussing. Firstly, you are certainly right about Tolkien's usages as cited. Secondly, you are probably right that the term is Jackson's, though it may well have been used by fans long before that. But those points do not necessarily mean that we should rename the article. We may observe that the chapter containing the battle is titled "Helm's Deep"; it may well be that Tolkien was here being deliberately obscure, as we know that he [[Tolkien's ambiguity|was intentionally ambiguous]] with chapter titles as with much else, but that does not negate the fact that readers come to the battle in a chapter called Helm's Deep, and only learn that the battle is elsewhere referred to as the Hornburg much later, if at all, and only in passing. Be that as it may, the fact is that readers of Tolkien, and readers of Wikipedia, are familiar with the title "Battle of Helm's Deep". Google returns some 35,700 hits for "Battle of the Hornburg, and some 214,000 for "Battle of Helm's Deep", while excluding the terms "film" and "movie" from the search still leaves some 117,000 for "Battle of Helm's Deep". In other words, per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the article is correctly named at the moment, as was noted in the discussion in the 2019–2020 thread above on this talk page. Since Jackson, of course, other things such as games have continued to use the name "Helm's Deep", so that name has steadily grown in usage. Even scholarly sources like Charles Oughton's "[https://thersites-journal.de/index.php/thr/article/view/214 Roman Heroes at Helm's Deep?]" cited in the article are now comfortable with that name. So, whatever book purists (and Tolkien himself) may think or have thought, the world now has chosen Helm over Hornburg, that's how it is. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 09:16, 21 February 2024 (UTC)